Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Apr 2010 20:25

DRDO AEW is atleast 6 years away from induction - with a first flight in 2012, and optimistically all flight and radar/mission eqpt tested done in 4 yrs. being our first stab at the issue, I would safely add on 2 more yrs. that brings IOC to 2018.

will the PRC hold off until then thrash us

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 04 Apr 2010 01:52

sawant wrote:Do we know how the AWACS are going to be distributed... i assume 1 for Delhi (Agra), 1 for the west coast(Mumbai?) and one for NE?

One for all the netas and babus sitting in Dilli. (sitting NOT working)

One for Sonia Gandhi and family.

Two for UP

One for Bihar

Two for any state with elections around the corner

One for Bengal, for protecting Mamata didi (from nasty people like the TATAs)

If any more are available they will be used to protect un important places like airbases, industrial areas, major cities (like Mumbai, Ahmedaabad etc.), major ports

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 04 Apr 2010 06:59

^^^^^

Kersi Pra...had a bad day at work!

But i think that is effectively what it will become soon...I am more worried about the CABS AEW A/c...it being based on an Embraer (which is also our babu's currently favoured BJ)...I can envision a request coming from the ministry to convert one temporarily because babu wants to travel to a seminar on "decreasing carbon footprint by reducing emissions"....

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 04 Apr 2010 23:38

nikhil_p wrote:^^^^^

Kersi Pra...had a bad day at work!

With our babus and netas ALL days are bad days for us lesser mortals.

With our netas, politicians and babus, who needs enemies

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 04 Apr 2010 23:43

nikhil_p wrote:^^^^^
I can envision a request coming from the ministry to convert one temporarily because babu wants to travel to a seminar on "decreasing carbon footprint by reducing emissions"....

Do you know how Mulayam Singh travelled for a meeting in say Mumbai today and Hyderabad tomorrow ? Late evening he would fly from Mumbai to Lucknow and next day he would take a morning flight from Lucknow to Hyderabad, all by IAF of course !!!!

So your fully apprehensions are justified

K

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Apr 2010 23:59

Now now Kersi

To be more accurate Mulayam did the thing the politicians do.

In order to make it official he would want to inspect that air base or some official thingy nearby

So the poor sods would run around, polish and shine, lay out the red carpet.

In flies Mulayam spends 5 minutes glancing at the aircraft (or buffalo) grabs a handful of cashews and other goodies laid out, and off he is to his real political rally or whatever.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 05 Apr 2010 00:22

One for all the netas and babus sitting in Dilli. (sitting NOT working)

One for Sonia Gandhi and family.

Considering the umberlla it has maybe it is preferred to prevent from sun strokes while travelling at that height!

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Apr 2010 09:34

Gilles wrote:
srai wrote:In wartime, you need at least 3 AEW&C to provide a continous 24h coverage of one area. So ideally IAF needs at least another 6 more AEW&Cs (total 9) to cover North-east, North-west, and South-west regions 24h a day during wartime. 2 AEW&Cs will rotate shift every 8 hours while the 3rd acts as a reserve.

In peacetime, it's hard to say how they will be deployed away from their home base in Agra. IAF tends to deploy flights to various regions on a continous basis for most of its a/c types.
This aircraft, if capable of taking-off with full fuel, which is 90 about tonnes of fuel (it depends on the empty weight of the aircraft and the payload it needs to carry to perform its duties, which I ignore), should be able to stay in the air un-refuelled for about 10 hours. With Air-to-Air refuelling capability, if relief crew members are on board and adequate rest areas are provided to them, the A-50 could theoretically stay on station several days, once an IL-78 goes up to refuel it every 6 or 8 hours.

I have not heard of any plane flying for several days (other than some UAVs and specialized aircrafts). Theoretically, it seems to be possible with air-to-air refuelling, but it is more likely that various parts will fail at some point beyond a certain number of flying hours (or flying conditions).

Probably, in a maximum utilization scenario (i.e. wartime) IAF will use at least 1 air-to-air refuelling at 6 hours, which would keep the Phalcon flying for another 6 more hours. So a total of around 12 hours (plus 2-4 hours more depending on conditions). With 3 Phalcon AEW&Cs, IAF would be able to cover the whole western (north/south) sector for 24hr for a limited number of days during wartime.

1. Phalcon 1 will be launched to cover West/North-West region and be airborne for 6 hours. Mid-air-to-air refuelling will occur at 6 hours.
2. Phalcon 2 will be airborne after 6 hours of Phalcon 1 being airborne and will cover the West/South-West region. It will also receive 1 mid AAR.
3. Phalcon 3 will be on standby.
4. Phalcon 3 will be launched when Phalcon 1 reaches its 12hr shift and returns to base. (Some overlap will need to occur for Phalcon 3 to reach Phalcon 1 station).
5. Phalcon 1 will need to be refueled and maintenance done in the next 2-6 hours before Phalcon 2 will need to return to base after its 12hrs on station. Phalcon 1 will replace Phalcon 2 station.
...

This scenario requires all 3 aircrafts to be operational. If any one experiences technical glitches, then the 24hr coverage will not be possible for the whole western sector.

But fighting both East and West, 3 Phalcons will not be able to provide continuous coverage beyond a day (even if pushed to its flying limits and keeping it airborne with multiple AARs).

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 05 Apr 2010 12:22

srai wrote: I have not heard of any plane flying for several days (other than some UAVs and specialized aircrafts). Theoretically, it seems to be possible with air-to-air refuelling, but it is more likely that various parts will fail at some point beyond a certain number of flying hours (or flying conditions).

Charles Lindberg fllew non-stop from New York to Paris in 33 hours in 1927.

From Wikipedia

In 1949 from February 26 to March 3 an American B-50 Superfortress Lucky Lady II of the 43rd Bomb Wing flew non-stop around the World in 94 hours, 1 min., a feat made possible by three aerial refuelings from four pairs of KB-29M tankers of the 43rd ARS. Before the mission, crews of the 43rd had experienced only a single operational air refueling contact. The flight started and ended at Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth, Texas with the refuelings accomplished over West Africa, the Pacific ocean near Guam and between Hawaii and the West Coast.
On 16 February 1991, a flight of B-52Gs flew from Barksdale AFB, Louisiana, refueled in the air en route, struck targets in Iraq, and returned home — a journey of 35 hours and 14,000 miles round trip. It set a record for longest-distance combat mission.

On 2–3 September 1996, two B-52H struck Baghdad power stations and communications facilities with 13 AGM-86C air-launched cruise missiles (ALCM) as part of Operation Desert Strike, a 34-hour, 16,000-mile round trip mission from Andersen AFB, Guam—the longest distance ever flown for a combat mission.

I assure you that an A-50 can stay in the air several days. The things that can fail, generators, hydraulic pumps, fuel pumps, radios etc all have enough redundency to stay airborne even after failure.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 08 Apr 2010 23:03

Those toilets on the plane need flushing after a bit, if they have only one toilet and if that fails, the plane is have to going to land. Non mundane things like this can abort a sortie in peacetime.

Thanu · Post by **Thanu** » 09 Apr 2010 17:28

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... craft.html

India requests deal for three more AEW aircraft
By Arie Egozi

India has requested a proposal from Israel Aerospace Industries to supply another three Ilyushin Il-76-based airborne early warning aircraft.

Worth a potential $1.5 billion, a new deal would follow New Delhi's previous order for three Il-76s modified by IAI's Elta Systems subsidiary. It would also stem from a defence ministry to further bolster the Indian air force's AEW capabilities.

The service should receive its second AEW aircraft in mid-2010 under the original contract, with the third to follow next year. Roles for the type include the tactical surveillance of airborne targets, and performing electronic intelligence-gathering missions.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 09 Apr 2010 18:27

Thanu wrote:http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... craft.html

India requests deal for three more AEW aircraft
By Arie Egozi

India has requested a proposal from Israel Aerospace Industries to supply another three Ilyushin Il-76-based airborne early warning aircraft.

Worth a potential $1.5 billion, a new deal would follow New Delhi's previous order for three Il-76s modified by IAI's Elta Systems subsidiary. It would also stem from a defence ministry to further bolster the Indian air force's AEW capabilities.

The service should receive its second AEW aircraft in mid-2010 under the original contract, with the third to follow next year. Roles for the type include the tactical surveillance of airborne targets, and performing electronic intelligence-gathering missions.

The second Phalcon has been received already?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 09 Apr 2010 18:57

^^ I take it that you haven't been following this thread??

The second AWACS has been received. Check the previous pages of this thread for further detailed information.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 09 Apr 2010 19:05

Craig Alpert wrote:^^ I take it that you haven't been following this thread??

The second AWACS has been received. Check the previous pages of this thread for further detailed information.

No I know the second AWACS has been received.

The article is saying that it will be received mid '10 when it has been received already.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 09 Apr 2010 19:18

^^ he's speculating.. Also as per sources, it is my understanding that the third AWACS is to be delivered by the END of THIS year, whereas the article points out next year. But nonetheless, old news

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 10 Apr 2010 21:26

Ajatshatru wrote:
India requests deal for three more AEW aircraft
This piece-meal ordering really puzzles me. Could this be, amongst other things, a case of lack of long term planning or perhaps this piece-meal ordering a case of netas/babus getting an opportunity to earn more commission with each subsequent order?

Is there some method to this madness of initially ordering 3 and then later making requests for three more....Given that most defence items get delayed ((in delivery dates by sometimes months/year(s)) and one doesn't need to be a rocket scienstist to deduce that a large country like ours would definitely need more than 6 AEW&C aircrafts so why not just simply order let's say 6-9 at one go instead of ordering in this piece-meal manner?

Because a bird in hand is worth two in the bush? The IAF and GoI took a big risk by selecting a Russian plane, an expensive Israeli brain, and expecting many of them to roll out the factory in a predictable manner. Both Russia and Israel could have chosen to play Gorshkov-esque hardball. But now we have two of the planes with us and just under a year of experience in operating the first one. Apprehensions over the supply chain might also seem in hindsight to be unfounded - which is always a pleasant feeling. So now they're able to bring more money to the table, perhaps even with ideas for enhancements.

Seems like the right way to manage risk and procure up-to-date equipment.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Apr 2010 21:35

Ajatshatru wrote:
India requests deal for three more AEW aircraft
This piece-meal ordering really puzzles me. Could this be, amongst other things, a case of lack of long term planning or perhaps this piece-meal ordering a case of netas/babus getting an opportunity to earn more commission with each subsequent order?

Is there some method to this madness of initially ordering 3 and then later making requests for three more....Given that most defence items get delayed ((in delivery dates by sometimes months/year(s)) and one doesn't need to be a rocket scienstist to deduce that a large country like ours would definitely need more than 6 AEW&C aircrafts so why not just simply order let's say 6-9 at one go instead of ordering in this piece-meal manner?

when the initial order was given even the 3 aircraft order was a big hole in our pocket, let alone any more. expanded orders seemed plausible only after our economic strength grew.

of course, beancounters play a role, not necessarily in this deal but in others. for example if IAF had projected a requirement for 9 AEW&C at that time instead of 3, you can bet that the beancounters would have forced them to go for the cheaper and much less capable russian AEW&C.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 10 Apr 2010 21:42

Rahul M wrote:...for example if IAF had projected a requirement for 9 AEW&C at that time instead of 3, you can bet that the beancounters would have forced them to go for the cheaper and much less capable russian AEW&C.

There's a lesson in hard reality! Good point.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 10 Apr 2010 22:44

Rahul M wrote: beancounters would have forced them to go for the cheaper and much less capable russian AEW&C.

This reminded me, how does our AEW&Cs compare to the one Pakis have got? I remember quite many discussions about how they were going to protect it or use it, but not a comparison. Can someone give me some link or post? Thanks.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Apr 2010 23:28

there have been a number of detailed comparison at the time when the respective decisions were announced. most should be still there but would require hunting using the forum search option and a clever selection of keywords.

Rajaneethan · Post by **Rajaneethan** » 27 Apr 2010 23:23

It would seem s-band radars such as the erieye, do not have any weaknesses(except forward and aft for the Erieye only). This truly is an amazing radar. L band(phalcon) works better in adverse weather conditions, so does the s-band(and it can be used for air traffic control).

L-band :long wavelenght(23cm) excellent penetration in heavy (cyclonic) weather
L- band: defeats many ‘add-on’ stealth coatings and shaping measures which
are optimised for the centimetric bands
L-band : Not good at detecting cruise missiles/ might be a problem and not sure how phalcon has got around this disability

S-band: long wavelength (10cm) is not affected by adverse weather conditions.
''The limitation of the two sided array is that it can only cover two 120 degree sectors abeam of the aircraft, leaving 60 degree blind sectors over the nose and tail of the aircraft, and reduced antenna performance from 45 degrees off the beam aspect. Another limitation stems from the use of an airframe too small to accommodate a comprehensive self contained command, control and communications system, and other sensors such as a capable ESM and track association system.”

S-band :Has a pretty good capability to track cruise missiles.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Apr 2010 23:35

Won't the output power and thereby resolution be an issue somewhat with a small platform like the Erieye?

Rajaneethan · Post by **Rajaneethan** » 28 Apr 2010 00:14

options for combining sensors
If the above were true, then I would think the PAF would have opted for the 0.7 - 2GHz option, as this more than covers all the frequency ranges of the phalcon radar(L-band). However, if they can somehow have all three options in one platform, then it really will won't be an effective platform, because of the complexities of integrating all these systems in one.

I should start off by saying there is a lot of sensors and units on board, for such a small platform, it would appear they are using an active noise cancellation system.(airforce-technology website)
some more units

In an intense EW environment, where the demand on these systems are far greater, you are going to radiate a lot more, and more than likely use up all your chaffs and flares. Perhaps this is why they have ordered 5?.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 05 May 2010 22:22

Third AWACS delivery expected by December

Delivery of the third aircraft is planned for December 2010,"

Defence Minister A K Antony said in reply to a question in Rajya Sabha.

He said additional AWACS would be procured by India under the 12th, 13th and 14th Plans and the DRDO was also developing an indigenous system for the IAF.

Ankit

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 07 May 2010 06:03

Rajaneethan wrote: L-band : Not good at detecting cruise missiles/ might be a problem and not sure how phalcon has got around this.

S-band :Has a pretty good capability to track cruise missiles.

Maybe DRDO's AEW&C platform will be S-band one? 'cause detecting baburs and chinki CMs is going to be crucial.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 07 May 2010 06:55

I am posing a few questions and apologize in advance if they have been discussed in the past ( I wasn't able to find the answers using Search ). Could those in the know shed some light on these :

Are the Phalcon radars on the new proposed orders going to be the EL.M-2075 or the EL/M-2085 ?? Are all the previous three Phalcon AEW systems that India purchased only L-band EL/M-2075s ?

Also, why has India chosen the Il-76 platform for the Phalcon radar considering that the Israeli and Singaporean choice of Gulfstream 550s can fly higher, faster, cheaper and apparently longer ranges than the A-50 ? Is it only because the A-50s have aerial refueling ability while the G550s dont ?

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 07 May 2010 13:22

Maybe DRDO's AEW&C platform will be S-band one? 'cause detecting baburs and chinki CMs is going to be crucial.

It is indeed S-Band AESA

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 25 May 2010 23:52

In all the pictures I have seen of the IAF's two new A-50s, the serial and/or productions numbers are never given, leading to speculation that these may be upgraded IAF IL-76s and not new deliveries. Is it possible that back when this order was placed around 2005, that the IAF sent a few IL-76MDs back to Tashkent to be upgraded to IL-76MD-90 standard before being converted to A-50s?

Have the serial and or production numbers of these two aircraft been published anywhere yet ?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 May 2010 01:39

Gilles wrote:In all the pictures I have seen of the IAF's two new A-50s, the serial and/or productions numbers are never given, leading to speculation that these may be upgraded IAF IL-76s and not new deliveries. Is it possible that back when this order was placed around 2005, that the IAF sent a few IL-76MDs back to Tashkent to be upgraded to IL-76MD-90 standard before being converted to A-50s?

Have the serial and or production numbers of these two aircraft been published anywhere yet ?

KW3551, KW3552. Its there on the aircraft.

http://www.tejaswy.com/wp-content/uploa ... jpg[KW3551]
http://images2.jetphotos.net/img/1/6/6/ ... 621966.jpg [KW3552]

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 26 May 2010 03:30

Viv S wrote: KW3551, KW3552. Its there on the aircraft.

http://www.tejaswy.com/wp-content/uploa ... jpg[KW3551]
http://images2.jetphotos.net/img/1/6/6/ ... 621966.jpg [KW3552]

Those are the Indian Air Force registrations. I was asking for the manufacturer serial numbers or construction numbers.

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 26 May 2010 05:31

^^^ i believe its impossible to get those

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 26 May 2010 07:18

chiru wrote:^^^ i believe its impossible to get those

Well on most aviation picture sites, the serial numbers are provided, even for Indian Air Force aircraft.

Like here for example:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/India-- ... 1598194/M/

K-2661's serial number is 0053458722

http://www.airliners.net/photo/India--- ... 1566814/M/

RK-3452's Serial number is 25860

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 27 May 2010 02:38

chiru wrote:^^^ i believe its impossible to get those

I found them here: http://russianplanes.net/EN/REGISTR/Ilu ... 76/78/A-50

All three A-50s are new builds.

KW-3551 has s/n 2093421727 and c/n 94-02
KW-3552 has s/n 2093421730 and c/n 94-03
KW3553 has c/n 97-10, s/n unknown for now.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 May 2010 02:56

Gilles wrote:
chiru wrote:^^^ i believe its impossible to get those
I found them here: http://russianplanes.net/EN/REGISTR/Ilu ... 76/78/A-50

All three A-50s are new builds.

KW-3551 has s/n 2093421727 and c/n 94-02
KW-3552 has s/n 2093421730 and c/n 94-03
KW3553 has c/n 97-10, s/n unknown for now.

Just curious, how come the suspicion?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 27 May 2010 03:07

Talking of Il-76 based airframes. Aerotransport DB reports the existence of RK-3450 as a refuelling tanker . Anyone seen any photos of it ?

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 27 May 2010 04:13

NRao wrote:
Gilles wrote: I found them here: http://russianplanes.net/EN/REGISTR/Ilu ... 76/78/A-50

All three A-50s are new builds.

KW-3551 has s/n 2093421727 and c/n 94-02
KW-3552 has s/n 2093421730 and c/n 94-03
KW3553 has c/n 97-10, s/n unknown for now.

Just curious, how come the suspicion?

Because I was not able to find any recent pictures of two or three of the IAF Il-76s (I was attempting to find out if all were still airworthy) and then I saw a person on Russian Forum ask that very question. Since Russia is upgrading its some of its D-30KP powered IL-76s with PS-90s, I thought it was possible that India had decided to upgrade some of its IL-76s and at the same time convert them to AWACS, thus reducing its fleet of Strategic Air Transports, which would also explain replacing them with C-17s. But my theory was wrong.

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 27 May 2010 17:47

Jagan wrote:Talking of Il-76 based airframes. Aerotransport DB reports the existence of RK-3450 as a refuelling tanker . Anyone seen any photos of it ?

I haven't. This one along with a couple of the IL-76s.

This Web site lists 18 IL-76 that went to India:

K-2661, K2662, K-2663, K-2664, K-2665, K-2666
K-2879, K-2879
K-2901, K-2902
K-2999, K-3000
K-3012, K-3013, K-3014, K-3015
K-3077, K-3078

And it also list 7 IL-78 and three A-50s.

Serial numbers and construction numbers are provided for all of them

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 02 Jun 2010 01:31

Embraer Develops Complementary Platforms For Indian Systems
Aviation Week

Pakistan took delivery of its second Saab-2000 Erieye aircraft in late April. The Indian Air Force is said to be looking at Acquiring 20 More Systems.

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Jun 2010 08:41

The Indian Air Force is said to be looking at Acquiring 20 More Systems.

We would then have ~2-3 squadrons of AWACs itself !!!! ( 6 Phalcon + 24 Desi AWACs)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jun 2010 09:15

we have no option if we need a real 24x7 sustained offensive warfighting capability rather than a selective point cover for specific areas.

the mission avionics of awacs is complex and one reads of fair amt of downtime needed to keep these in fine shape. the EMB145 is not that high on endurance and lacks the room for a relief crew even if AAR probe were fitted (its not in the brazilian version).

24 desi AWACS could be divided up into 5 squadrons (4 each) and 4 held in reserve for training and emergencies.
with 4 planes per squadron, they would be able to put 1-2 in the air at all times for a sustained spell. this will permit good coverage at all times on a broad front.

USAF has 33 full featured E3 , NATO has around 17 in the pool (UK has 7 on its own, france 4 on its own), even the saudis have around 5 E3, japan has 4.

imo we need around 12 big IL76 Phalcons and 24 desi awacs to back them up and relieve them of defensive patrols. the big boys can push ahead with the fighter squadrons and put a lot of hurt on the enemy.