Internal Security Watch

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 31 Oct 2008 20:58

I see dark clouds on the horizon. With economic slowdown and uncertainty regional parochialism will see a revival with people native to a relatively economically prosperous state keenly looking at "foreigners" taking away scarce jobs from the locals. Add to that the impending labour troubles and strikes because of the slowdown and we will pretty soon be back to the Hindu growth rate. Its back to the 70 and 80's for India.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 31 Oct 2008 21:17

Sorry Skanda sir, now that I reread my comments, I did not mean to be harsh on you. The things I said to you, it was more generic in nature, i.e. people who have similar views, not exactly against you?
Sorry about any hurt feelngs.
Thanks,
fanne

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 31 Oct 2008 21:30

Sugriva Sir,
I would not worry about the slow economic growth of the earlier decades. Among all the big economics, we have the highest amount of organic growth, full 80-90% of our economy is about us. For China, they have 30-40% economy tied to the well being of the global economy. We are the original and real businessman. Of the 5000 years of recorded history, we were the richest nation for almost 4700 hundred years, last 200 years have been bad (last 60 the worst, at independence we accounted for 5% of world trade, now not even 1%). There was some 100 years in 1600 AD that China took us momentarily. The last 60 years were like putting shackles around Indians. We will thrive and do great, we always have. The Islamic invasion could not slow us down, neither the looting of the British (they built the largest train network for that!!). The so called shinning sectors will be hit, like people who are mousers to foreigners, or like write codes for them. But for many Indians, who choose to serve 1.2 billion Indians, sky is the limit. We would be OK, just that we do not go back to that mai baap system where everything is decided by Rajmata and Rajkumar.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 31 Oct 2008 21:52

Its so much clear that Congress and RT are doing this for political gain, but people here are talking about Bihar poverty.
In my opinion attack on North Indian and their poverty are unrelated. If poor Biharis were not eating local jobs, RT would have found some other reasons to attack them.

Skanda · Post by **Skanda** » 01 Nov 2008 01:27

ramana wrote:
Skanda, if you dont strike oil in five posts stop boring. You are not making yourself clear and worse appear to be after Biharis who are the ones suffering. Stop while you are ahead.

Thanks, ramana

Come on ramana. Give me a break. I am irritated by seeing comments like "Biharis are one of the most hardworking people who can survive against all odds etc etc etc.

Please tell me who is not hardworking, who doesnt survive against all odds in this country? Besides, what relevant information can somebody gather from such statements? If you can decisively tell me, that "Yes, Biharis are one of the most hardworking compared to <------->", I would be able to see a comparison and appreciate it. Yes, Biharis are suffering. I would wonder, how statements like these would put them in some sort of favourable light.

Please tell me what do you understand by this statement "Biharis are one of the most hardowrking people in this country". Please tell me, if asking "Who is not hardworking?" is wrong.

Isnt this mindless rhetoric?

And frankly, if they are, so what?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 01 Nov 2008 01:48

"Bihari migrants are hardworking" is a counterpoint to all the claims that biharis are just leeching off society in other states, like the MNS dilweeds are claiming -- a lazy bihari is probably content remaining in Bihar instead of going cross country and doing back-breaking labour, so this claim of the "Enterprising Bihari" is true and not really all that surprising. Many Malayalis and Tamilians have been moving around India for a long time and settling wherever life takes them, so the Biharis are NOT doing anything unusual. There is NO reason to decry the migration of biharis to other states if they are hardworking people (like they clearly are) -- it is a different matter that no sane Indian *today* will want to move to Bihar to create reverse flow of non-Biharis and balance things out, esp. given all the overt goonda-raj in that state and breakdown of law and order, but that is for the politicians in Bihar and the Center to fix the situation. That only seems like mindless rhetoric to people who have been trained to think the worst of Biharis for no reason, other than pure prejudice.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 01 Nov 2008 02:11

edited. ramana

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Nov 2008 02:26

Paul, No need for more takleefs.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 01 Nov 2008 03:07

I hardly doubt that there would be any retaliation against say Maharastrian in any North Indian city and thanks God for that. I don't believe any amount of provocation is going to get me to go to uncle Shinde house and mess with him; he has been a fixture of our community since as long as I can remember and he is as much part of us as we are of his existence. But that part is out. The part that is really bad is, where are the Manoos apposing this dastardly act. If all immigrant do pull out from Mumbai, Mumbai will not be a shade better than Patna. What makes Mumbai great is not that it is in Maharastra or its run by Marathi Manoos, but because best of 1.2 billion Indian come there to make that city great, if only the greatest of say 10 carore came and not 120 carore, it will be no great city than say Lucknow or Patna. All great cities like NY, London, Mumbai, Banglore are great because they attract the best talents from far off lands.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Nov 2008 03:10

Make Mumbai a separate state. The whole problem is solved.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 01 Nov 2008 03:27

Skanda wrote:
Come on ramana. Give me a break. I am irritated by seeing comments like "Biharis are one of the most hardworking people who can survive against all odds etc etc etc.

Please tell me who is not hardworking, who doesnt survive against all odds in this country? Besides, what relevant information can somebody gather from such statements? If you can decisively tell me, that "Yes, Biharis are one of the most hardworking compared to <------->", I would be able to see a comparison and appreciate it. Yes, Biharis are suffering. I would wonder, how statements like these would put them in some sort of favourable light.

Please tell me what do you understand by this statement "Biharis are one of the most hardowrking people in this country". Please tell me, if asking "Who is not hardworking?" is wrong.

Isnt this mindless rhetoric?

And frankly, if they are, so what?

You are westing your valuable time by discussing which race/state... are better. This is Internal Security Watch thread and we should discuss law breaking groups and RT is one of them.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 01 Nov 2008 03:38

RajeshA wrote:Make Mumbai a separate state. The whole problem is solved.

Step 1: Go to Flora Fountain. Find out the current name of that locality
Step 2: Read the plaque there
Step 3: Find out why the 105 people died.

Then speak about making it a separate state.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 01 Nov 2008 03:53

It has become a new fancy or istyle these days to ask for separate states as though by separating states everything gets solved.

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 01 Nov 2008 04:18

Manu Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:10 pm wrote:I want to highlight the complete fiasco/charade that is being conducted by UPA goons to invent "Hindu Terrorists". None exist now, but they soon will (and probably should, if the Law and Order continues to fail under the present political dispensation). What is happening in Malegaon case is a 100% charade.

Link]

Sadhvi's terror link: Narco test gives her clean chit
MUMBAI: The brain mapping test conducted on Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, an accused in the latest Malegaon blast, at the state forensic lab showed that she was not lying during the forensic tests, said sources.

The police is now planning to subject her to another round of forensic tests. Thakur had been subjected to a narco analysis test at the Nagpada police hospital earlier this week but the results are not known.

Thakur, a former member of Durga Vahini, a women's wing of Vishwa Hindu Parishad, was arrested on October 23 after being interrogated for more than 10 days. A bomb planted on a bike went off in the textile town killing six. The police found that the bike used in the blast was registered in Thakur's name . Four others arrested along with her including a retired major were also subjected to several scientific tests in Mumbai.

While the report of a narco analysis test is not admissible in the court of law, the Indian police have secured two convictions based only on the report of brain mapping test, which is admissible in the court. "The brain mapping test went on for almost two hours. A team of forensic experts was handed over a long list of questions," said the source.

It may be recalled that in the 7/11 blast investigation, the accused were subjected to second round of forensic tests when the police did not get positive result in the first test. According to the police, the tests conducted at Victoria Hospital in Bangalore proved conclusive and helped the investigators to find the missing links in the conspiracy and execution of the train blasts.

Look at how twisted the portrayal is.....the headline should have been "No Proof against Ms. Thakur, even after 10 days of Interrogation and Brain Mapping Tests"

As I had said, this is a complete charade.

Mataji, MMS and Co. are trying to invent "Hindu Terrorists" to take away some of the Heat from them in their complete failure to shield the Citizens of India from Islamic Jihad.

Other than Maharashtra Issue (which is hogging the Headlines, not Assam), they have nothing. And I suspect patriotism will win over Regionalism even there.

What will they turn to? Mataji does not have enough cash to buy MPs this time around.

Just so we know, the following is the ATS case:

Sadhvi Pragya Singh and her two associates, Shamlal Sahu and Shivnarayan Singh, were arrested on October 23 in connection with the Malegaon blast. The bike used in the bomb blast was registered in the sadhvi's name. An active member of ABVP a decade ago, the sadhvi was also the national executive secretary of Durga Vahini, Vishwa Hindu Parishad's women's wing. The three have been booked for murder, attempt to murder, conspiracy for a terror act, unlawful assembly, making bomb and various sections of the Unlawful Activities Prevention Act and Explosives Act.

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 01 Nov 2008 04:41

Because they have nothing on Ms. Thakur (but have successfully created the fiction of "Hindu Terrorists" in the English Media Reading Public's Minds), the next, most insidious, attack, is on the only surviving Nationalist Force in the Country, the Indian Armed Forces. (I suspect this is part of "CBM", which Mataji has agreed to with outsiders).

IB joins Malegaon blasts probe

NEW DELHI: With the role of a serving Army Lieutenant Colonel coming under cloud {you have brought it under a cloud} in the Malegaon blasts, the government has roped in its domestic snooping agency, the Intelligence Bureau (IB), to conduct a parallel probe in the case.

Defence minister A K Antony told reporters on Friday that the IB, along with the Maharashtra police, was already investigating the Malegaon blasts and the role of serving Army personnel.

"Already Maharashtra police and the IB are investigating the matter. Let us see the result of the investigation. Army is fully cooperating in the investigation," Antony said, replying to a question on his Ministry's views on the alleged role of serving Army personnel in the Malegaon blasts.

Refusing to state anything further on Lieutenant Colonel's role, Antony said, "Two responsible agencies are investigating the case and the Army is fully assisting them. At this stage, I do not want to make any comments."

The Army had on Thursday announced that it had already sent the officer concerned to Mumbai for allowing interaction between him and the police to enable forward movement in the blasts probe.

The September 29 blasts in Malegaon had claimed about half-a-dozen lives and the Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) of the Maharashtra police had arrested sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, retired Army major Ramesh Upadhyaya and his associate Sharad Kulkarni in connection with the blasts.

The ATS wanted to question the Lieutenant Colonel, who is currently posted at the Army Education Corps School in Panchmarhi in Madhya Pradesh, for his alleged links with the suspects in the case.

Now, the Psy-Ops gets really dangerous, the Military School is being likened to some Madrassa
Bhonsala school denies training terror suspects

NAGPUR: The Bhonsala Military School, which claims to shape bodies and minds for the Indian Army, admits it is managed by administrators from the saffron fold {Saffron= = Jihadi} but says that shouldn't taint it with a terror tag. Though a couple of Army officers are under the ATS scanner for providing training {not allegedly?} in making bombs using the deadly RDX to Malegaon accused Pragya Singh Thakur and her accomplices, Salpekar said barring Major Prabhakar Kulkarni, the other two — Major Ramesh Upadhyay and Major Y D Sahasrabuddhe — were not connected with BMS at all.

Link

NAGPUR: The disclosures by some of the accused in the Malegaon blasts case has linked Bhonsala Military School with Hindu extremism. Police suspect the accused were trained by former armymen having links with the school. Its premises was also used by Bajrang Dal for holding camps attended by some of the suspects and the plot of the blasts was allegedly hatched in meetings held in the school premises.

Link

Military school principal detained
NASHIK: Two persons including C S Raikar, principal of Bhonsala military school in Nashik, were detained by the anti-terrorism squad (ATS) and brought to the city on Friday evening.

The ATS, and by extension, the police is PERMANENTLY damaging its reputation. Will not recover easily from these lows.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 01 Nov 2008 04:46

All things point to a need for second independece movement against the government run by whatever the @#$#%#$.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 01 Nov 2008 04:50

I have already started a relay hunger strike for a second independence from India! Victory is at hand! Arise, Awake, oh Indian Patriot!

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 01 Nov 2008 04:53

So have you decided what your latest Takleef is and which new members you are going to Stalk and Harass?

Sanjay and G. Sub (who told us about Assam very accurately) already seem to be History.

What will you consider a complete Victory?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 01 Nov 2008 04:56

Manu, the irony of someone calling for sedition in the "Internal Security Watch" thread made me lose control for a moment. No offense intended.

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 01 Nov 2008 05:01

sedition? from what? for what?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 01 Nov 2008 05:02

what does the phrase "second independence from government" mean to you"?

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 01 Nov 2008 05:05

Is there a legal way to pull down the current govt. if we are frustrated with it? Is it possible to exercise that now? I want to do that.

Is it possible to get the government convene the parliament to handle things as per law?
They have shut all legal options available for you.

Please suggest in your words, what we frustrated individuals can do?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 01 Nov 2008 05:06

There is a thing called "The elections" --- you may have heard of it.

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 01 Nov 2008 05:08

That is too far dude. By that time many things would have happened.

What should people do if the government doesn't allow elected representatives to do their duty?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 01 Nov 2008 05:10

Breathe in deeply and then exhale....usually works for me. Impotent rage is pointless...been there, done that.

I think there needs to be a PIL by the public accusing people in the govt. if there are witnesses/evidence against these criminals running the country. I feel your pain, but I am not a fan of "we have to destroy it in order to save it" mentality.

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 01 Nov 2008 05:11

Nice advice, which you won't practice against others.

You would have known that Muppalla's statement also just a rage and not real call for sedition.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 01 Nov 2008 05:12

Touche!

I think there are enough marxists and mediamen printing and saying such things...and naxalites actually in the process of carrying forward that thought process. I am not saying that the underlying question of how to make this government accountable for its incompetence and callousness is not a worthy or interesting one, but it is hard to influence the govt. from the outside in a legal manner when the entire is legal/justice system is as broken as it is in India.

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 01 Nov 2008 05:22

There is genuine problem with the way goverment is running now.
What is the short term thing that concerned people can do (other than taking deep breath)?
----
Legal system is being broken systematically!

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 01 Nov 2008 05:39

What do you call JP's movement? Is it not free from violence or what was it? Did he destroy the country or the ruling establishment of that time destroyed it(they realized enough is enough and did the right thing at last- atleast IG was nationalist inspite of her mistakes).

There is a "need for second independence movement" can mean many things if you take positively, otherwise you will see only Naxals and Naxal Rams. My reply was in response to the article posted by Manu. The Government is trying desperately to create a new term "Hindu Terrorist". This is the same country that feel shy to call Terrorists as Terrorists. For many years we only know word "militants" and such a nation has no second thoughts to create this term "Hindu Terrorist".

Does the majority need to sleep or do something against it a la JP movement? What is so seditious in calling such a movement as 2nd Independence movement.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 01 Nov 2008 05:41

Mupalla, if we are on the same page, my apologies.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 01 Nov 2008 05:46

Does anyone have a theory on Malegaon blast? I have one; again I am trying to fit all the data points and solve this equation.

Facts,
1. Bomb blast in Malegaon, in a Muslim majority area. This it self is an anomaly. Two possible explanations could have been, one that like earlier explosion it was a handywork of Sunnis against shias, maybe to provoke a communal riot, since killing Hindus have not evoked one. Other could be that the Jihadis accidentally exploded the bombs. There could be any other possibility from some Hindu group doing it to some Political party doing it.

2. Hindus are picked up, conveniently the bike is registered to a Hindu Sadhvi, who is somehow connected to a Militiary schoold run by ex Army officers who train (more like physical training) people from saffron hues. Somehow a serving officer is also related to it

3. If they indeed trained the Sadhvi, they did a poor job by not telling her not to use her own registered bike. Either the Colonel were really dumb or the execution was really bad (highly unlikely)

4. The press conveniently coins a word – Hindu extremism, even before the allegation would be proven. The damage is done. As with Benerjee committee, even though it does not change the fact, history will record it as Godhra train was burned by Hindus, even a committee headed by a Hindu said so.

5. All the people charged with the blast come out clean in investigation and even brain mapping.

Now what could be the reason, if the Sadhvi and all these people are really innocent of this blast (they might be proven guilty of other like making a hindu army or hatching a grand conspiracy to kill Rahul offspring when he/she is born) who would have really done it.

I mean who could have gotten a bike registered and owned by the Sadhvi (some 5-10 years ago), parked and blasted in Muslim majority area, and then also know before hand that they can lay their hands on some school and army officers who are BJP supporters. Then spin all this as Hindu terrorism and get political mileage out of it. I mean can this all be cooked as in good old days of Shri Indira ji and pulled of in the current scenario?

Which party would do all that conspiracy? Who would really go and kill 5 Indians to take political mileage out of it?

The only thing I am not understanding is that if that party really did all that, did they not fear that sooner or later it would be discovered that these people were not involved in the blast and whole thing can boomerang? I mean did they not understand that not all ATS member can be bought and made to stick to falsehood. Or is it hubris that they just did not anticipate that anything wrong cannot happen and they only have upside in this conspiracy?

Btw guys if you figure out the political party please let me know.

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 01 Nov 2008 05:59

Boss, the 2006 Bomb Blasts also took place in the same area, dominated by a "Particular Community". Why are you expressing such surprise?

Please see This. It was the Handiwork of SIMI, at the time, a Legal Organization (I think).

The explosions, which caused the deaths of at least 37 people and injured over 125 more, took place in a Muslim cemetery, adjacent to a mosque, at around 13:15 local time after Friday prayers on the Shab e Bara'at holy day.

At the time, a desperate attempt was made to find people related to "Saffron Outfits" as well, nothing was found.

At the time, SIMI had Said they were Innocent
Please see the address:
Students Islamic Organization of India
SIO of India
D-300 Abul Fazal Jamia Nagar
New Delhi, 110025

Where did 2008 Delhi Bomb Blast Planners Hide and where was the Shoot-Out where Mr. Sharma died?

But the Police (which still had some reputation at that time) came up with proof of SIMIs involvement aided by ISI. There was no stupid clue like A Bike Registered in some person's name.
See this

Please also see the Assam Bomb Blasts, one area which was affected, is full of illegal BDs.

The aim of terrorists is clear - and they kill indiscriminately, including their own. And our Political Impotence only Encourages them.

The Panipat Syndrome is alive and well in New Delhi. People only move when Blasts happen in Delhi....Assam is "way too far...out there...in the bad lands" for anyone to care.

You know what the worst Psy-Ops (or self-goal) is - because only 6 people were killed, some people can still believe that this is not Islamic Terror. Afterall, "they" kill many more and always in the middle of crowded places at peak time to kill the maximum number of People.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 01 Nov 2008 06:05

Manu what you say is right and I have pointed out that possibility, if I remember right that time most of the dead were shias (and 2006 was a very low point in shia-sunni strife, Karbala was being bombed by sunnis at that time). This could be an extension to that. But I am surprised that police is beating that same line and arresting more and more people. If the news report is right and the Sadhvi is innocent and so is this school then what is the point of pushing the investigation in that direction. I won't be surprised if they come out saying that this school had nothing to do with Malegaon but they did train people in making bomb in say 1988. Or like the guy threw his food when he was a kid. I hope that there is no bigger conspiracy, but then few things do make you think.
What do you say, do you think that ceratin political party cannot hatch that conspiracy? My heart says Naah, but my skeptical mind says maybe they can. What's your take on that line of thinking

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 01 Nov 2008 07:45

This is a bit of off topic but, I am against changing names of the cities.

For example, in Delhi Connaught Place & Connaught Circle getting renamed to Rajiv Chowk & Indira Chwok.
First of all, these are not crossings, these are circles.
Second, what did it do towards solving the day to day problems of the common man.

Changing the names of the cities from Bombay, Madras, Calcutta, Bangalore is definitely the easy thing to do than to work on the challenges these cities face, hence a complete waste of public time and money and also the reason why pols love it.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 01 Nov 2008 09:12

ManuT wrote:This is a bit of off topic but, I am against changing names of the cities.

For example, in Delhi Connaught Place & Connaught Circle getting renamed to Rajiv Chowk & Indira Chwok.
First of all, these are not crossings, these are circles.
Second, what did it do towards solving the day to day problems of the common man.

Changing the names of the cities from Bombay, Madras, Calcutta, Bangalore is definitely the easy thing to do than to work on the challenges these cities face, hence a complete waste of public time and money and also the reason why pols love it.

It certainly does not require the same effort and is populist, however, I agree with the name changes. If the locals call it Dilli or Mumbai or Kolkata or Bengaluru or Chennai then that is the name that needs to be used.

PS. Rajiv/Indira/Nehru names are a different class of things

.

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 01 Nov 2008 09:27

ManuT wrote:This is a bit of off topic but, I am against changing names of the cities.

For example, in Delhi Connaught Place & Connaught Circle getting renamed to Rajiv Chowk & Indira Chwok.
First of all, these are not crossings, these are circles.
Second, what did it do towards solving the day to day problems of the common man.

Changing the names of the cities from Bombay, Madras, Calcutta, Bangalore is definitely the easy thing to do than to work on the challenges these cities face, hence a complete waste of public time and money and also the reason why pols love it.

Well naming after Rajiv/Indira is one thing, restoring historical names is another thing.

On Chennai, The area that was given to British by Damarla Nayakas was called Chenna Patnam named after Damarla Chennapa Naidu. British started to using the name Madras, I guess another nearby village called Madarasa Patnam.

It is ridiculous to think of costs. iIt is not like they burned whole Madras City down and and started building Chennai to think about costs. Shop owners when they have to repaint boards in front of their shops they paint Chennai instead of Madras. old boards still say Madras even after so many years.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Nov 2008 09:39

The next step is to reclaim the original names of the other cities in the next round of renaming.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Nov 2008 13:07

am I right in guessing that this refers to names that were changed a bit earlier than the above mentioned cities ?

If so, I'll support it but don't think it is doable in today's climate.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 01 Nov 2008 14:56

sugriva wrote: Add to that the impending labour troubles and strikes because of the slowdown and we will pretty soon be back to the Hindu growth rate. Its back to the 70 and 80's for India.

I thought the term was long discredited (or replaced by Indian growth rate). So is the time right to revive "Hindu Growth Rate" now?

I gather it wasn't the intention, but this is a self-goal we can do without..

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 01 Nov 2008 15:24

I believe a Rediff columnist suggested the more accurate "Nehruvian/Socialist rate of growth" to describe this. For obvious reasons, his colleagues in the media have not adopted this.