Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stability

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ShyamSP
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by ShyamSP »

Acharya wrote:
Paul wrote:
Among the major nuggets in this book, Stalin formed the Tajikistan SSR in 1929 to showcase the glory of communism at the gateway of “Hindustan”. I believe this reveals a key input into why POK went to Pakistan and the Wakhan corridor was formed.
Good info. Find out more about how other stans were created. Kasakhstan is crucial.
Russian expansion to these areas took place from 1880-1930s
Does it mean that the British&US knew India would fall into USSR or friendly to USSR post independence? Was such liking because of mindset of ruling elite of that time or the British own mindset of how Indian mindset would be (Anti-British means pro-USSR)

So entire Pakistan creation and British complicity in POK occupation are to stem Russian expansion. (Pak breaks sea access and POK breaks access through India)

Interesting picture from wikipedia on Wakhan
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Wakhan.png
svinayak
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by svinayak »

ShyamSP wrote:
Does it mean that the British&US knew India would fall into USSR or friendly to USSR post independence? Was such liking because of mindset of ruling elite of that time or the British own mindset of how Indian mindset would be (Anti-British means pro-USSR)
Looks ike you have not read this thread completely. Go through it once more and read it carefully
Paul
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Paul »

Acharya wrote:
Paul wrote:
Among the major nuggets in this book, Stalin formed the Tajikistan SSR in 1929 to showcase the glory of communism at the gateway of “Hindustan”. I believe this reveals a key input into why POK went to Pakistan and the Wakhan corridor was formed.
Good info. Find out more about how other stans were created. Kasakhstan is crucial.
Russian expansion to these areas took place from 1880-1930s
The lessons of the Basmachi revolt were well applied here. USSR wanted to keep pan turkic ambitions under control(my post in the uighur thread on this is relevant here), hence divided the turkics into different regions based on their ethnicity. This has worked well so far. In fact when USSR collapsed in the 90s turkomens, Uzbeks, Tajiks, Azeris, and kyrghiz were all at each other's throats in all the key cities of the caucasus and ferghana valley.

So far the Communist strongmen have managed to keep Pan Islamic ambitions under check,, but I believe time is on Islam's side, when these strongmen fall, PRC will also realize like USSR that eastern turkestan is it's soft underbelly to poked at like brezenski's diabolical plans for the central asian SSRs
Last edited by Paul on 29 Jul 2009 08:40, edited 1 time in total.
Paul
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Paul »

Paul wrote:There are other players in the CIS watching the situation in Afganistan-Pakistan closely.

Uzbekistan is another sleeping giant whose potential has been noted by all major powers. Al Qaida has made special efforts to spread it's influence in this vital country. Not for nothing is it called the cockpit of central asia. Most of the land invasions from the NW originate from the territories that comprise of presnt day Uzbekistan. Should PRC start losing it's grip on Xinjiang, they will most likely be the first to move in. In afghanistan they already have considerable influence through their surrogate Jouzjani militia (dostam). Xinjiang is the old moghalistan the non muslim mongols settled down. Uzbeks will see this as their natural lebenstraum. They will likely be India's neigbours in the future.

Need look up and identify not only present opportunities but take steps to forestall future threats as well.
Dilip Hiro's book ends on a somber note echoing my earlier post in this thread. Uzbekistan is the prize of central asia. The day this country reverts to being the bastion of conservative Islam, PRC and to a lesser extent (Russia's) goose is truely cooked....and (hold your breath) I believe that is not a bad outcome for India for it brings ore opportunities to India. but I will write on that some other day.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by svinayak »

Paul wrote:

So far the Communist strongmen have managed to keep Pan Islamic ambitions under check,, but I believe time is on Islam's side, when these strongmen fall, PRC will also realize like USSR that eastern turkestan is it's soft underbelly to poked at like brezenski's diabolical plans for the central asian SSRs
Zbig and others look at Indian Kashmir also in similar ways.
The day this country reverts to being the bastion of conservative Islam, PRC and to a lesser extent (Russia's) goose is truely cooked....and (hold your breath) I believe that is not a bad outcome for India for it brings ore opportunities to India. but I will write on that some other day.
Dont count on it. The Political Islam is under the control of Western powers for the last 100+ years now. They can direct it against any country now.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Paul »

Acharya wrote: Dont count on it. The Political Islam is under the control of Western powers for the last 100+ years now. They can direct it against any country now.
Acharya, your one-liners tend to divert the focus of the whole discussion. Please do not do so again. In this forum, every veteran and their wives, and their pets by now know about the anglo-saxons’s harnessing of the sunni nuisance value in Asia and other parts of the world.

But my point was on something else, what I am stress on is the not too well recognized fact that Russia too is a European power. Russia’s empire was expanding at almost 20miles/day at the time Nelson’s fleet was hounding napoleon in Egypt….Russian influence was expanding at the same Britian was consolidating it’s hold strategic shoke points on the high seas, and now Russian power is declining at the same time there is a financial meltdown in the west.

India and China are both land powers with populations of over $1billion each. They need space to expand their population and have a legitimate right over the vast resources of Siberia and Central Asia and Siberia. Should China get a share of the vast resources of Siberia there will be less incentive for them to box India within the subcontinent. (this is similar to anglo-saxon plan to harness sunni nuisance value against the old land powers of Asia. )

It should be remembered that Indians merchants and bankers controlled a significant share of the financial system of central Asia. Indian sarais could be found as far north as Astrakhan. Indian temples were found in Baku. When Russia rolled into these regions, they eradicated Indian influence in these areas and brought in their settlers. It is time to roll back the clock to a time when Indian traders start plying their wares in these regions again with open routes for Indian populations to settle down in the open spaces of the stans (can happen if Amu Darya reverts to it's previous status the line marking outer edge of Indian influence).

Note Sino-Russian harmony on east turkestan. What is Russia’s policy on Tibet????
Paul
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Paul »

In the near term we cannot allow Russia and china to divvy up central asia between themselves. Read M K Bhadrakumar's article on russian acquiescence in allowing China to bail out Moldovia.

Let's see the Russians give the Chinese unfettered access to Siberia around Kamachatka....not in the Caucasus/CA.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by svinayak »

Paul wrote:
Acharya, your one-liners tend to divert the focus of the whole discussion. Please do not do so again. In this forum, every veteran and their wives, and their pets by now know about the anglo-saxons’s harnessing of the sunni nuisance value in Asia and other parts of the world.
Dont worry about the one liners. They are perfectly valid and you will get used to it.
More later.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by shravan »

Russia to station more troops in Kyrgyzstan
August 01, 2009
CHOLPON-ATA: Kyrgyzstan on Saturday agreed to allow Russia to station more troops in the Central Asian country as Moscow seeks to increase its military influence in the region.

:?:

Russia signs deal to open 2nd base in Kyrgyzstan

CHOLPON-ATA, Kyrgyzstan — Russia clinched a tentative deal Saturday allowing it to establish a second military base in Kyrgyzstan, where the United States also has an important air base.

Under the terms of a joint memorandum, Russia could significantly boost the number of troops it has deployed in the Central Asian nation for a period of up to 49 years. Russian forces will be charged with "protecting Kyrgyz sovereignty" and repelling attacks by international terrorist groups, it said.

A definitive agreement detailing the status of the proposed base and Russia's existing Kant base will be signed by November.

No specifics on the location of the base or the amount of troops were given, but the document signed Saturday by the leaders of the two countries indicated that Russia may be allowed to deploy the equivalent of a battalion.

Media reports have suggested a base could be set up in Batken province, near the border with Uzbekistan. That is on the fringe of the Ferghana Valley region that spreads across Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, an area that has been an incubator of Islamic militancy over the past decade.

The memorandum also stipulated that Russian troops stationed at the two bases in Kyrgyzstan may be granted diplomatic status, giving them immunity from local laws.

Leaders of Collective Security Treaty Organization member states — which also include Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan — have gathered at a lakeside town in eastern Kyrgyzstan for a summit that was supposed to also consider the creation of a NATO-style rapid-reaction force.

No announcement on the force was made, however, suggesting possible resistance from Belarus and Uzbekistan. The two countries have so far refused to sign onto the deal to create the force, undermining a Kremlin bid to bolster its power and prestige amid a struggle with the West for regional clout.

Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko snubbed a CSTO summit in June amid a politically charged trade dispute with longtime ally Russia. Central Asian power Uzbekistan attended the summit but balked at signing a deal that could increase Moscow's influence over its affairs.

But Kyrgyz officials indicated that troops at Russia's new base will go toward making up the ranks of the rapid-reaction force.

An increase in Russian troops in Kyrgyzstan would supplement personnel already posted at Russia's Kant air base, about 12 miles (20 kilometers) east of the capital, Bishkek.

About 400 Russian military personnel are deployed at Kant, which has been operating since 2003.

The U.S. established an air base at the Manas international airport near Bishkek in late 2001 to support military operations in Afghanistan. The base has become an important transit point for coalition troops and supplies, and it is home to tanker aircraft that refuel warplanes over Afghanistan.

Russia watched in dismay as the United States boosted its military profile in former Soviet Central Asia.

This year, Kyrgyz President Kurmanbek Bakiyev announced the Manas base would be closed. He made the announcement shortly after Russia granted the country more than $2 billion in aid and loans, and U.S. officials suggested the eviction decision hinged on the Russian aid.

But under an agreement reached in June, the U.S. will continue to use the base, paying significantly higher rent.

The base's importance to coalition operations in Afghanistan was highlighted this year as militant attacks increased on coalition supply routes.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Paul »

The Hans are pushing the envelope. As per this map, if the Hans have not been able to subvert the Demography of Inner Mongolia, East turkestan, or tibet in the halycon days of mao when they were a closed society, fat chance they can do it now.

Image
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Johann »

The Hans are pushing the envelope. As per this map, if the Hans have not been able to subvert the Demography of Inner Mongolia, East turkestan, or tibet in the halycon days of mao when they were a closed society, fat chance they can do it now.
I believe that map is from the CIA's analytical directorate from the early 1980s (see the online University of Texas map library), and is very much out of date in terms of what has happened since.

Demography changes much quicker in urban settings than rural areas, and the driver is always trade and industry, which in turn depend on strong road/rail/waterway links to the areas in question.

Overland communications between conquests in the west and the core Chinese lands were very poor in the Maoist era (which wasnt really over until 1978 when Deng took full control), and there was relatively small investment in trade and industry in Tibetan or Turkic areas.

In the post-Maoist era the Chinese have vastly improved transportation infrastructure, and the liberalised economy when combined with a government incentive programme to 'Go West' has completely changed the demographics of most Tibetan cities, and many Uighur cities.

The internal disorder within Pakistan is good news for Tibetans and Uighurs because functioning Chinese outlets to the Indian Ocean would result in an absolute flood of Chinese immigration to those areas. The Tibetan and Uighur populations are overall very small compared to the Han - like anyone else they will move en masse for the right kind of economic gains.

The Soviet settlement of Central Asia with Slavs like so many Soviet failures was rooted in the failures of a planned economy. The post-1941 moves to move industry inland, away from the border with the West, and the 'virgin lands' programme to expand cultivated areas ran in to very complex problems that the state couldnt solve on its own. Even in an totalitarian economy you cant move more people to a place than you can support from productive economic activity.

As for as the viability of Chinese settlement in urban areas and trade corridors, and a programme of cultural assimilation - that is precisely how the Arabs and Muslims consolidated and extended control over the centuries. The Arabs and Chinese collided in Central Asia back in 750, and the biggest advantage that Islam had in the area was the traditional Chinese ambivalence, bordering on disdain for trade, while Muslims embraced it and thrived on it and the soft power that goes with it. Modernisation and industrialisation has put the shoe on the other foot - the Chinese have embraced trade and globalisation, while much of the Muslim world attempts to resist it.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Paul »

Johann, I found the link here.

http://www.emap.ro/countries_asia_a.php
that is precisely how the Arabs and Muslims consolidated and extended control over the centuries. The Arabs and Chinese collided in Central Asia back in 750, and the biggest advantage that Islam had in the area was the traditional Chinese ambivalence, bordering on disdain for trade, while Muslims embraced it and thrived on it and the soft power that goes with it. Modernisation and industrialisation has put the shoe on the other foot - the Chinese have embraced trade and globalisation, while much of the uslim world attempts to resist it.
Interesting that you say this, is it possible that the nucleus of conservative islaimic thought still survives in the Ferghana valley and could provide the spark for revival of islam in central asia. Maybe their links are maintained just like the caucasians of anatolia do with their homeland.

Amongst the Arab disaporia, the algerian fighters of AQ are amongst their most fanatical cadres.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Johann »

Hi Paul,

From the same University of Texas map page;
The following maps were produced by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, unless otherwise indicated.

....
China - Ethnolinguistic Groups 1983 (258K)
I like the UT site because they're so good about bibliographic information with all maps - source, publication date, etc.
Interesting that you say this, is it possible that the nucleus of conservative islaimic thought still survives in the Ferghana valley and could provide the spark for revival of islam in central asia. Maybe their links are maintained just like the caucasians of anatolia do with their homeland.
That's certainly possible. There were some places where Soviet influences made only the most minimal difference to local culture, and the Fergana valley was definitely up there on the list. There's no question that the area has produced the majority of Central Asian jihadis since 1992, and that they have been close to the Pashtun jihadis for most of the time since.

However, these areas dont have the same living tradition of decentralised tribal power as Afghanistan/FATA, or Yemen, or Somalia. The Uzbek state, Russia, China, etc can and will act decisively to prevent an aggressive Taliban-style emirate from emerging.

If the overland silk route restarts, I believe it is the Chinese who will dominate the scene because the gravitational pull of their economy and energy and transportation infrastructure.

Any Islamic state that emerges will fail unless it takes a pragmatic attitude towards trade and all that goes with it. My personal opinion is that we would eventually see something like the Turkish model emerge, a partnership between secular military and bureaucratic elites on the one hand, and pragmatic Islamist businessmen and politicians on the other.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by svinayak »

Paul wrote:
Note Sino-Russian harmony on east turkestan. What is Russia’s policy on Tibet????
In the 1800s the Colonial British paid the Chinese Emperor to invade and annex east Turkestan. This was to prevent the Russians to invade Xinjiang and reach the interiors of CA and Tibet. Fall of Tibet would have created a direct front between the Colonial British forces and Tzarist Russian forces. Xinjiang created a buffer for the British forces. Similarly in Afghanistan Imperial British force created a buffer so that British force do not have direct confrontation with Tzarist Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_U ... ous_Region

This 200 year old tacit agreement is still holding where the western (Anglo/EU) front will never confront the Russian forces directly in the Central asian landmass.
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Post by Paul »

Monday, August 10, 2009



Share this story!
As Algeria grows more religious, nightlife suffers

* Boumerdes governor pledges not to approve a single liquor licence

ALGIERS: All through the 1990s, when militants waged a ferocious war on the Algerian state and nightlife died in the city that once called itself “the Paris of Africa”, the Hanani bar and restaurant stayed open. It was “an act of resistance”, says owner Achour Ait Oussaid.

Yet today, at a time when the bloodshed has ebbed, local authorities have shuttered the hole-in-the-wall bar. “This same state has done what the extremists never managed to do,” Ait Oussaid said, standing amid abandoned tables and empty shelves gathering dust. At least 40 bars, restaurants and nightclubs have been closed in the past year around Algiers alone, according to local media. The government insists that the closures are strictly a matter of safety and hygiene, but suspicion is widespread that conservatives’ pressure is to blame.

Ait Oussaid, a Muslim like almost all of Algeria’s 32 million people, contends that officials caved in to a petition circulated in his seaside neighbourhood of La Perouse demanding the prohibition of alcohol be enforced. Many see this as one of a series of measures the government is taking in Algiers and other cities to soothe Muslim sensitivities and isolate the militants who still carry out bombings and assassinations. Ait Oussaid says he defied death threats to keep Hanani open. “For me, it was an act of resistance, a way to defend the Algerian state,” he said.

Won’t happen: In the Boumerdes province next to Algiers, Governor Brahim Merad has pledged not to approve a single liquor licence. “Even better, I won’t miss a single opportunity to close the existing establishments,” the French-language El Watan newspaper quoted him as saying in June.

The programme of “national reconciliation” put forward by President Abdelaziz Bouteflika in 2005 is widely credited with ending the worst of the civil strife. But Rachid Tlemcani, a political science professor at Algiers University says: “We’re witnessing the slow growth and triumph of Islamism through society.” ap
This is why I think Islam will make a strong comeback in CA. The ex-USSR satraps Karimov, Nazarbayev, etc. are lording it oer with the acquiscence of a populace which is still under the influence of the USSR and it's benefits. As a new generation grows up, I expect them to begin the search for their roots. and this arrangement will wither away. It is a matter of time.

I expect Russia, Iran, China,and India (to lesser extent as we are already pushed back) to foot the bill for this.

It will start with the Good taliban coming to power in Afghania....then the snowball keeps getting bigger.
svinayak
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by svinayak »

Image
Iintervention in Russia (1918-1922)
The Allied intervention was a multi-national military expedition launched in 1918 during the Russian Civil War and World War I. The intervention involved almost a dozen nations and was conducted over a vast expanse of territory. Allies to withdraw from North Russia and Siberia in 1920. However, the Japanese occupied parts of Siberia until 1922.

I have written about the Japanese intrusion and occupation of Russian territory into this thread. We see hard fight of the Japanese Army on pictures... Really hard...
Link:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... p?t=158701
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ostcount=1

In fact Expeditionary Army of Canada, Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Finland, France, Greece, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Serbia, UK and USA invade in Russia... They invade in native Russian territory.... It was real aggression... Some tell fairy tales about the allied "help" of White Army against Bolsheviks. But in a reality it not the truth. They wanted and divided resources of Russia. They wished to influence Russia and to government of Russia... They have taken advantage of the situation of Civil War in Russia that when Russia was weak but they were mistaken...

These are the numbers of the foreign soldiers who occupied the indicated regions of Russia:
· 50,000 Czechoslovaks (along the Trans-Siberian railway)
· 28,000 Japanese, later increased to 70,000 (all in the Vladivostok region)
· 24,000 Greeks (in Crimea)
· 16,000 British (in the Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok regions)
· 13,000 Americans (in the Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok regions)
· 12,000 French and French colonial (mostly in the Arkhangelsk and Odessa regions)
· 12,000 Poles (mostly in Crimea and Ukraine)
· 4,000 Canadians (in the Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok regions)
· 4,000 Serbs (in the Arkhangelsk region)
· 4,000 Romanians (in the Arkhangelsk region)
· 2,000 Italians (in the Arkhangelsk region)
· 2,000 Chinese (in the Vladivostok region)
· 560 Australians (mostly in the Arkhangelsk regions)

Link of Wiki, but not the correct information. Info is underestimated and not full. For example, We see Serbs in Vladivostok on my photos but in Wiki had written that they only in Arkhangelsk. It is not true.
Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_int ... _Civil_War

Caucasus

Some British and Indian colonial forces operated in the Southern Caucasus region from 1919 to 1920 after fighting the Ottoman Empire.
svinayak
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http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=6352.4810.0.0

Don’t Blame Versailles


Like all peace treaties, the Treaty of Versailles had its imperfections, although, as historian Victor Davis Hanson has explained, the treaty was “far better than what Germany itself had offered France in 1871 after the Franco-Prussian War, or Russia after its collapse in 1917—or what it had planned for Britain and France had it won the First World War” (emphasis mine throughout).

Perhaps Versailles was a little too demanding on some points, but it was no harsher than peace accords imposed by Germany on France and Russia—and, after all, Germany had caused a conflict that ultimately snuffed out 10 million people!

“What ultimately led to World War ii,” explained Hanson, “was neither the Allied meanness to Germany between the two wars nor an unwillingness to understand the Nazis’ pain and anguish.”

What was the true cause of World War ii?

If the Treaty of Versailles really was why “the Second World War had to follow the first,” as Spiegel put it, it would be logical that World War ii only became inevitable after Versailles, and, realistically, after years of built-up resentment and anger over its “unfair” and “harsh” stipulations. How then do revisionist historians explain the facts showing Germany began planning World War ii toward the end of World War i—before the Treaty of Versailles even existed?

“Nazism, the fascist phase of Pan-Germanism, was initiated in Germany immediately after the armistice of 1918 by direct instigation of the German General Staff,” explained Michael Sayers and Albert E. Khan in The Plot Against Peace (1945). The Treaty of Versailles wasn’t signed until June 1919; the seeds of Nazism were sown in Germany after the armistice in 1918.

So the spirit of Nazism, which ultimately transformed Europe into a cauldron of death during the Second World War, was operating inside Germany before the Treaty of Versailles existed. Historical evidence shows that Germany was even preparing physically for World War ii—developing new weapons and restocking armaments—as early as 1921, long before Versailles’ “harsh” and “humiliating” stipulations had the chance to take full effect.

The logic is undeniable: The spirit of Nazism that caused World War ii was not born of animosity among Germans toward the Treaty of Versailles!

Select leaders in Germany were planning World War ii before the First World War even ended. Many in Germany did not accept World War i as a defeat. The truth is, these people exploited the idea that the Treaty of Versailles was “harsh” and “humiliating” as a vehicle to advance the Nazi agenda to launch World War ii. Nazism thrived in Germany during the 1920s and ’30s when the Nazi propaganda machine fomented German pride and humiliation over the defeat, and blamed the country’s postwar woes on the Allied impositions of Versailles.

“The Treaty of Versailles created a political climate in Germany in which the right [Nazism] put all the blame on everything that went sour onto the treaty and the lost war,” explained prominent German historian Wolfgang Mommsen. “And that created this climate in which many people then began to think one had to fight the war once again.”

The Versailles Treaty was tough, and it created some hardship in Germany. But it was not the cause of World War ii. The cause of World War ii was the pervasive, war-mongering spirit of Nazism, injected into Germany before Versailles, which used Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist Party as its mouthpiece and “sold the Second World War to the Germans as righting the wrongs of Versailles” (ibid.).

Ridiculing the Treaty of Versailles as “harsh,” “humiliating” and unfair was a Nazi tactic designed to provoke frustration and hostility among Germans toward America, Britain and France. It was a gigantic lie by which the Nazi propaganda machine groomed the minds of Germans for World War ii. Perhaps some Germans went to war thinking they were remedying what they saw as the mistakes made in the Treaty of Versailles, that they were fighting to reclaim the territory they had been forced to cede, particularly in Eastern Europe.

Not Hitler. His goal was to establish the Third Reich over all of Poland, all of France, all of the Balkans, all of Europe—including Britain—and ultimately the entire world! His goal was to purge Germany, then the human race, of the Jews.

Hitler didn’t care about righting the supposed wrongs of Versailles. He was a genocidal maniac gunning for world domination!

The Holy Roman Empire

Although the immediate cause of World War ii was German Nazism, led by the genocidal mass-murderer Adolf Hitler, there was a more fundamental reason for the war. As Sayers and Khan observed, “[A]lmost all the peculiar features of Hitler’s regime, its unbridled aggressiveness, its inordinate brutality, its homicidal racial chauvinism, have been characteristic of past political manifestations of the Pan-German secret ruling combine of Junkerism, Prussian militarism and economic feudalism.”

There is another common name for Germany’s long-standing quest for global domination: It’s called the Holy Roman Empire!Put simply, World War ii was a short and vicious eruption of what historians admit is a long-held German goal for continental subjugation—and world dominance.


That is why the growing proclivity to blame World War ii on the Treaty of Versailles, and on the Allied powers, is so dangerous: It classifies the Second World War as a historical aberration, caused by unique political and economic conditions, that will never be repeated. The truth is, World War ii was actually a violent eruption of Germany’s enduring ambition for global domination—an ambition that remains rooted in the German national character today!

Paul
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Paul »

To understand India's position in the Great Game....and the role planned "NEW INDIA"(it is not what you think) :mrgreen:

Mehra has done lot of digging here...it is for us to find the nuggets. SOmeone wanted to understand the gorpolitics between India/China in Ladakh,DBO, Aksai chin etc.

These books are a good start.
Parshotam Mehra (Mehra, Parshotam)
An 'Agreed' Frontier: Ladakh and India's Northernmost Borders, 1846-1947
by Parshotam Mehra
Hardcover, Oxford Univ Pr, ISBN 019562758X (0-19-562758-X)
A Dictionary of Modern Indian History 1707-1947
by P.L. Mehra
Hardcover, Oxford Univ Pr, ISBN 0195615522 (0-19-561552-2)
The McMahon Line and After: A Study of the Triangular Contest on India's North-Eastern Frontier Between Britain, China and Tibet, 1904-47
by Parshotam Mehra
Hardcover, Macmillan Publishers Limited, ISBN 0333157370 (0-333-15737-0)
More editions of The McMahon Line and After: A Study of the Triangular Contest on India's North-Eastern Frontier Between Britain, China and Tibet, 1904-47:

The McMahon Line and After: A Study of the Triangular Contest on India's North-Eastern Frontier between Britain, China, and Tibet, 1904-47: Hardcover, Macmillan, ISBN 0333900278 (0-333-90027-8)
Negotiating With the Chinese, 1846-1987: Problems and Perspectives
by Parshotam Mehra
Hardcover, Stosius Inc/Advent Books Division, ISBN 8185047464 (81-85047-46-4)
The North-Eastern Frontier: A Documentary Study of the Internecine Rivalry Between India, Tibet and China
by Parshotam Mehra
Hardcover, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0195611586 (0-19-561158-6)
More editions of The North-Eastern Frontier: A Documentary Study of the Internecine Rivalry Between India, Tibet and China:

The North-Eastern Frontier: A Documentary Study of the Internecine Rivalry Between India, Tibet and China: Hardcover, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0195612256 (0-19-561225-6)
The North-West Frontier Drama 1945-1947: A Re-Assessment
by Parshotam Mehra
Hardcover, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0195778022 (0-19-577802-2)
The North-West Frontier Drama a Re-Assessment 1945-1947
by Parshotam Mehra
Hardcover, South Asia Books, ISBN 8173040974 (81-7304-097-4)
Tibetan Polity, 1904-37: The Conflict between the 13th Dalai Lama and the 9th Panchen a Case Study
by Parshotam Mehra
Softcover, O. Harrassowitz, ISBN 344701802X (3-447-01802-X)
The Younghusband Expedition: An Interpretation
by Parshotam Mehra
Hardcover, Asia Publishing House, ISBN 0210270284 (0-210-27028-4)
Paul
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Pakistan’s Western Frontiers in Tumult: Olaf Caroe’s Lengthening Shadows
Ramtanu Maitra
This is the second and final installment of a two-part article; the first part appeared in the March 27 issue.

Pakistan’s western provinces, Balochistan, the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), and the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), are in the midst of a violent upheaval caused immediately by the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan in the Winter of 2001. The U.S. invasion, which was joined later by a number of NATO countries, and some assistance from a few non-NATO nations, was designed to capture, or eliminate, the alleged masterminds behind the 9/11 attack in the United States, and also to remove the Afghan Taliban regime that had provided shelter to the al-Qaeda militants.

The invasion failed in the sense that the al-Qaeda militants moved eastward across the undefined Durand Line that separates Afghanistan from Pakistan, and the Afghan Taliban dispersed from Kabul and other cities, to rural areas where they have fully re-built themselves, posing a serious threat to the foreign troops inside Afghanistan.

The al-Qaeda militants, now inside Pakistan, began to carry out operations along the border areas inside Afghanistan to harass the foreign troops. They were soon joined by the tribal groups from FATA. Islamabad, under President Pervez Musharraf, which had joined the Bush Administration’s War on Terror, could not prevent its citizens along the border areas from opposing the War on Terror. As a result, a very difficult situation developed when Islamabad, under pressure from the Bush Administration’s hardliners, represented by Vice President Cheney, was forced to deploy troops and paramilitary forces to counter the FATA militants helpingthe Afghan Taliban.

Within a very short time, the situation worsened. Aided by Saudi funding, to spread Wahhabi-led jihadinside the tribal areas, and huge sums of cash generated
by the opium explosion inside Afghanistan, militants almost paralyzed the Pakistani troops inside the FATA, and Islamabad was unable to maintain law and order in the area. As it stands today, Islamabad’s writ is virtually lost in the FATA, and weakened vastly in Balochistan and the NWFP.

The Swat Valley, located at the northeastern part of the NWFP (Figure 1), has already become autonomous, and has imposed Wahhabi-style Islamic Sharia law, in violation of Pakistan’s constitution. For all practical purposes, Islamabad has handed the Swat Valley over to the Saudi-funded Wahhabis. Since all these developments have occurred within the short span of eight years, one wonders what caused such rapid deterioration.

Where are its roots?
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Acharya wrote:Image
Iintervention in Russia (1918-1922)
The Allied intervention was a multi-national military expedition launched in 1918 during the Russian Civil War and World War I. The intervention involved almost a dozen nations and was conducted over a vast expanse of territory. Allies to withdraw from North Russia and Siberia in 1920. However, the Japanese occupied parts of Siberia until 1922.

I have written about the Japanese intrusion and occupation of Russian territory into this thread. We see hard fight of the Japanese Army on pictures... Really hard...
Link:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... p?t=158701
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ostcount=1

In fact Expeditionary Army of Canada, Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Finland, France, Greece, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Serbia, UK and USA invade in Russia... They invade in native Russian territory.... It was real aggression... Some tell fairy tales about the allied "help" of White Army against Bolsheviks. But in a reality it not the truth. They wanted and divided resources of Russia. They wished to influence Russia and to government of Russia... They have taken advantage of the situation of Civil War in Russia that when Russia was weak but they were mistaken...

These are the numbers of the foreign soldiers who occupied the indicated regions of Russia:
· 50,000 Czechoslovaks (along the Trans-Siberian railway)
· 28,000 Japanese, later increased to 70,000 (all in the Vladivostok region)
· 24,000 Greeks (in Crimea)
· 16,000 British (in the Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok regions)
· 13,000 Americans (in the Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok regions)
· 12,000 French and French colonial (mostly in the Arkhangelsk and Odessa regions)
· 12,000 Poles (mostly in Crimea and Ukraine)
· 4,000 Canadians (in the Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok regions)
· 4,000 Serbs (in the Arkhangelsk region)
· 4,000 Romanians (in the Arkhangelsk region)
· 2,000 Italians (in the Arkhangelsk region)
· 2,000 Chinese (in the Vladivostok region)
· 560 Australians (mostly in the Arkhangelsk regions)

Link of Wiki, but not the correct information. Info is underestimated and not full. For example, We see Serbs in Vladivostok on my photos but in Wiki had written that they only in Arkhangelsk. It is not true.
Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_int ... _Civil_War

Caucasus

Some British and Indian colonial forces operated in the Southern Caucasus region from 1919 to 1920 after fighting the Ottoman Empire.
George Kennan, the Bhishma Pitamah of post WWII American diplomacy has written extensively about this in his book - Russia and the west. He is the architect of the USSR's containment policy in the late 40s and 50s.
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Something interesting I read in a website while googling...The Brits wanted to keep Balochistan as a independent state initially. The Baloch declearation of independence in august 1947 even had Caroe's blessings. The Pakistani takeover of the Khan of Kalat's state was not part of Caroe's plans.

They wanted to keep this area as a base for their forces and navy to keep a watch on the persian gulf and keep the Russians from getting to the "WELLS OF POWER".

It could be possible as the Pakistani state (Caroe called it NEW INDIA :D ) was an unknown entity in 1948 and in typical British fashion and they may have wanted to hedge their bets.
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http://balochistaninhistory.blogspot.co ... anate.html
The Indian Position



As soon as the possibility of the British leaving India became apparent, the Khan of Kalat (as most of Balochistan was then known) Mir Ahmed Yar Khan made it clear that he sought independence. His arguments were based on the fact that Kalat had a status different than the 560-odd Indian princely states. It was in direct treaty relations with Whitehall and the 1876 treaty had affirmed that the British would respect the sovereignty and independence of Kalat.


Not only Khan, but the goal of the Kalat State National Party, made up largely of educated and left leaning Baloch, was also an independent and unified Balochistan. As a necessary prelude to independence, the party demanded that the British restore the Baloch principalities of Kharan, Makran and Las Bela to Kalat.


The Khan had argued before the Cabinet Mission in March 1946 that since the Empire was being withdrawn those other areas that the British had taken away from the original Kalat state should be returned to Kalat. The Khan followed this up by sending Samad Khan (a member of the AICC) to plead Kalats case with the Congress leadership. Nehru, however, totally rejected this contention and stated that the Congress would not accept on any account any attempt to bring about such a deal. Presumably, this was due to the Congresss antipathy to the princely states without, however, making a distinction between the state of affairs in Kalat and the other princely states. Subsequently, Ghaus Bux Bizenjo, President of the Kalat State National Party went to Delhi and met Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, President of the Congress. Azad agreed with Bizenjos contention that Balochistan had never been a part of India and had its own independent
status governed by the Treaty of 1876. However, Azad argued that the Baloch would never be able to survive as a sovereign, independent state and would ask for British protection. If the British agreed and remained in Balochistan, the sovereignty of the sub-continent would become meaningless. Hence, though Azad admitted that the demands of the Baloch were genuine that Balochistan had never been part of India, yet he could not help in maintaining Kalats independence.


A third blow to Kalat was the AIR broadcast of March 27, 1948 that reported a press conference in Delhi addressed by V P Menon. According to the report, V P Menon stated that the Khan of Kalat had been pressing India for agreeing to Kalats accession to India instead of Pakistan and that India had not paid any attention to the suggestion and India had nothing to do with it. The Khan who had the habit of listening to the 9 o clock AIR news was extremely upset at the dismissive manner in which he had been treated and is reported to have informed Jinnah to begin negotiations for Kalats treaty relationship with Pakistan.

Significantly, the minutes of a Cabinet meeting held on March 29, 1948 as well as Nehrus reply to a question on March 30, 1948 in the Constituent Assembly19, state that V P Menon had, in fact, made no such comments and that there was an error in reporting by AIR. Despite this attempt at damage control, the damage had already been done.
Well, looks like not just Ghaffar khan, but potential allies in Balochistan were also hung out to dry.

Wrt to my earlier post about Brit position on Baloch independence, they had a change of heart wrt Balochistan.
Initially, the British favored honoring their commitments under the 1876 treaty regarding Kalat’s independence based upon the prospects of using an independent Balochistan as a base for their activities in the region. Maj. Gen. R C Money in charge of strategic planning in India had formulated a report in 1944 on the post-war scenario. According to this report, in case of any eventual transfer of power, Balochistan, since it was not formally a part of India, could serve as a strategic military base for the defense of the Persian Gulf. However, by 1946 when it was decided to partition India, the British felt that instead of locating a base in a weak Balochistan, such a base could be established in Pakistan which was more than willing to accommodate the British. Hence, it was in British interests to ensure that Balochistan was kept within Pakistan and did not become an independent entity.
The sheer level of British audacity defies imagination...playing with the future whole countries and millions of people like they were pieces on a chessboard.

On top of it, they call Hitler/Stalin as warmongers and megalomaniacs.
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Paul wrote:
The sheer level of British audacity defies imagination...playing with the future whole countries and millions of people like they were pieces on a chessboard.

On top of it, they call Hitler/Stalin as warmongers and megalomaniacs.
Why the surprise
http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/U ... litics.htm
In 1903 Curzon admitted

1903 approx.
Foreign secretary Lord Curzon names the states South from Russia as "stones on a chess board"
in a game about the world dominance: Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Persia etc. Curzon is "Vice king of India" at the same time (p.180).


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... &aid=11909

"To me, I confess that [countries] are pieces on a chessboard upon which is being played out a great game for the domination of the world." -Lord Curzon, Viceroy of India, 1898
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British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, President Roosevelt, and Canadian Prime
Minister MacKenzie King met, at the Quebec conference in 1944.
FDR made it clear to the apoplectic Winston on many occasions that the United
States was not fighting World War II to restore the British Empire. Roosevelt’s big
mistake was to die—leaving Truman to adopt the British policy.


http://www.schillerinstitute.org/lar_re ... -8-09.html

FDR’s Intention Was Betrayed

Take World War II: We had a devotion to a mission! And therefore, the resources of scientific capability and engineering capability were drawn into a concentrated effort, to enable us to produce the weapons by which we could win that war, and supply the logistical support to conduct that war successfully. At the end of the war, by this means, we had achieved the greatest concentration of productive power the planet had ever seen! And Roosevelt’s intention was that we would use that accumulation of power, which we had used for military requirements; we simply would convert it to its natural occupation, for civilian requirements: for advancement of technology, not waste it on war, but use it for these purposes.

Roosevelt’s intention was to free the people who had been in the colonialized part of the world, and help them to develop self-sufficiency and eliminate the British Empire, and all other empires from this planet, in order to build up a planetary system of relatively sovereign, nation-state governments of people. And to hope to establish world peace among republics, by finding a common interest among the people of these various republics, for cooperation.

That was Roosevelt’s intention for the United Nations: to convert a colonialized, imperialistic world, into a world of sovereign nation-states, American-style, to give them the option for an American-style sovereign nation-state. And to build a bond among these nations, of cooperation, and not get suckered for the British game, of controlling the planet by getting people to kill each other, in wars which somebody made up for them to fight. That was the point.

And this is what has been destroyed. It was taken away from us, from Truman on. Truman kissed the butt of Churchill, and that’s where the whole process started.

And now, the world is playing the same silly game! We are now going to new wars, in various parts of the world, on schedule, killing people, for some cooked-up reason, and all for the benefit of propagation of the British Empire. Why did we go into Iraq—twice? There was no need to go in there. Why did we go into Vietnam? There was no need for us to go there.

When I was in military service, in Burma, at that time—I was operating out of Myitkyina—we were actually supporting Ho Chi Minh in Indo-China against the Japanese! And when the Japanese surrendered to U.S. forces, they took over. The U.S. government had joined with Ho Chi Minh, in the liberation of Indo-China from colonialism. What did Truman do? Truman gave the British the backing of the United States, to take the Japanese troops out of the camps, and reconquer Indo-China, until the French could get there to take over. And a British agent operating with Truman’s backing, did that.

So we reversed our policy, for which we’d fought war, and we did it all over the world. We recolonized Africa! We recolonized, or partially recolonized, other parts of the world! We did not use our potential, our industrial power, to enable these countries, through machine tools and other things, to begin to develop their own independence, true independence and self-sufficiency.

And so what we did: We engaged in organizing, British-style, perpetual local warfare, between so-called “traditional rivals.” And the British, as they had done in the case of the Seven Years’ War, back in the 18th Century, played this situation so the United States, like a damned fool, would go off to fight one more war, and bleed its own people to death and waste our material, all for the greater glory of the British Empire!
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I was looking for the non western world view thread to post this...

X-post from Pakhtun civil war.

Johann,

Like most westerners you are overestimating the extent to which the west and by extension nation states like Russia/China can influence events in Central Asia. This is why you westerners are unable to grasp the tide of history influencing events in Asia. The west came to Asia only for the last 400 years or so. The tide of history is rolling back the power of the west to influence events in other parts of the world.

Now that the Pakhtuns are fully on board the Islam bandwagon, the west is belatedly realizing the forces that are coming to fore…. The combined power of the anglo saxon west, Russia, Iran and to some extent India is not enough to prevent them from asserting their influence in the regions comprising of Afghanistan.

Other ethnic identities that have lost out in the power struggles since Russia and Britain divided up Asia in the great game and are watching this experiement in great detail. Should this exercise succeed they will clamber on the bandwagon to reassert their interests.

We are overestimating the power of Russia and China in their ability to hold the surge in the ambitions of these groups when they have the momentum.

I wrote the following in the new game thread in Aug10,2009
I think Islam will make a strong comeback in CA. The ex-USSR satraps Karimov, Nazarbayev, etc. are lording it over with the acquiscence of a populace which is still under the influence of the USSR and it's benefits. As a new generation grows up, I expect them to begin the search for their roots. and this arrangement will wither away. It is a matter of time.

I expect Russia, Iran, China,and India (to lesser extent as we are already pushed back) to foot the bill for this.

It will start with the Good taliban coming to power in Afghania....then the snowball keeps getting bigger.
This raises a more somber question…to be pondered by all Indians, Iranians, Chinese, Russians and the west…..After learning the lessons from the successful Pakhtun experiment in realizing their aims by getting on the Islam bandwagon, which ethnic group in CA will get on the train next???

My money is on the Uzbegs….
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Frontier Policy of Delhi Sultans

As submitted before, we are too fixated on the frontier policies of the British Indian empire and ignoring the policies followed by the Mughals and earlier sultanat.

The successful strategy followed by the Khiljis to keep the Mongols off balance should be a case study in Indian power circles. The British strategy is not applicable to India as we do not have to deal with Imperial Russia. The challenges faced by the Turkic Khiljis are not very different from the challenges faced by post 1947 India.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Johann »

x posting from the Pashtun Civil war thread - this is probably a more appropriate home for it in any case;

Follow up on our discussion of the strategic cooperation between Uzbekistan, China and Russia in containing jihad;

http://www.agentura.ru/english/infrastructure/sco/

State Security Without Borders

Russia opens the doors for special services from China, Uzbekistan and other Asian countries and allows them carrying out special operations on her territory

Irina Borogan, Agentura.ru
(26.08.2008, 00:20)
Special services of the former Soviet Union and China have been trying several years to build up a similar stuff. The process not being finished yet, it is obvious that the creators of the system follow the American pattern. The system is called Regional Anti-Terrorist Structure of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (RATS SCO).

New order

Besides Russia and China, SCO’s other members are Central Asian states: Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kirgizia and Kazakhstan. Joint struggle with terrorism, separatism and extremism is considered to be one of the main SCO purposes. In 2004 RATS was created especially for the mentioned purposes; actually it was formed for coordinating the actions of mutual giving up the suspects. Its main objective is helping special services of the states-members to bypass the obstacles presented by national legislations and by the norms of the international law about giving up the suspects.

The procedure of extradition is the biggest obstacle implying decision taking on the level of the Prosecutor General’s offices. First, it is rather long. Second, it is open. Third, the decision of extradition may be appealed in the court. And the main problem is that Russian Prosecutor General’s office often refuses extraditions to Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, as they not always can submit the evidence of the crime committed, and the count incriminated is not always subject of consideration by the Russian legislation. Besides, as it is considered by the EU, tortures are used in prisons of the states mentioned, and this is why extradition decisions are readily appealed in the European Court for Human Rights, where Russia finds herself to be constantly blamed for violation of the international norms, even without this aspect.

The topic of struggle against terrorism turned out to be a very convenient pretext for simplification of procedure of detention and giving up people. According to our information, RATS SCO is engaged in making its own parallel structure that can be used instead of official extradition. Cooperation between the special services and enforcing bodies is done through placement of direct requests of assistance. A request includes the name of an enforcing body, a purpose and justification, and a description of the action required, e.g. detention and passing a person. The request is signed by the head, or his deputy, of the central authorized body, i.e. the local special service. In urgent cases the request may be passed in oral way.

SCO states have gone very far in forming this new system. For example, the Shanghai convention allows application of the legislation of another country on the Russian territory, made at a request by special services of Uzbekistan or China. This is done for cases where the crime by a person guilty in another country cannot be determined as a crime in accordance with the Russian laws.

... Files on suspects, immunity for employees

To make the new system work properly, RATS began to form the common data bank on the wanted terrorists, separatists and extremists.

It shall be noted that the Russian Criminal Code does not contain the term “separatism”. This “trifle” did not confuse the State Duma and Federation Council that ratified the SCO agreements and conventions.

To secure the new system’s work on detaining the suspect on the territories of the six states, it was necessary to give guarantees to executing officers. They had to be protected against arrest in a foreign country in case of failure.

SCO managed to provide absolute protection to its representatives. The Convention on Privileges and Immunities of SCO, ratified by Russia in 2005, equalized the representatives of the SCO structures to diplomats. They are not subjects to criminal liability for any actions committed by them on their duty, they have immunity from arrest, detention etc.

Same unlimited opportunities are given to “experts” executing commissions by SCO. They have immunity from arrest for the period of their service trips and their baggage cannot be searched through. Significantly, their immunity is prolonged with them even after their service trip is over.

The premises of RATS SCO are also protected against any intrusion. The Convention secures that no representatives of authorities can enter an RATS place without consent given by its director. The RATS property also has immunity from any interference, including the means of transportation and all the documents, regardless of location.

Of course, it’s too early now to say that all those measures were taken only to allow using the RATS premises as secret prisons, like those by CIA, and that immunity is necessary to protect a foreign service officer acting under an “expert” disguise. Nonetheless, it is not quite clear why representatives of a respected international organization, which purposes are clear and understandable, must be protected from the laws of the country they work in.

It seems that it is not likely that any secret air companies will be needed for transportation of the detained people. While CIA used the special flights to hide the traces from journalists and from the public, Russian special services do not have similar problems – they just refuse submitting any information, pleading to various circumstances.

After failing attempt of extradition of Alisher Usmanov (he was accused of belonging to a terrorist organization Hizb ut-Tahrir, but he had managed to get Russian citizenship and became a teacher in madrasah in Kazan (Russia)), he was just kidnapped by unknown persons in 2005. Three months later his relatives found him in a prison in Namangan (Uzbekistan). Human rights activists failed to find out which way Mr. Usmanov was brought to Uzbekistan.

According to our information, there has been only one instance of secret taking a person with the use of a military plane. This is about Mukhamadruzi Iskandarov, personal enemy of Tajik President Rakhmonov. Mr. Iskandarov was kidnapped in 2005 after the Russian Prosecutor General’s Office had refused his extradition. Afterwards, he passed a letter from the prison, describing the circumstances of the kidnapping done. Being masked and cuffed, he did not hear any announcements characteristic of regular flights at airports. So he concluded he had been carried by a military or military-transport aircraft. Landing in Dushanbe, he crossed the Russian-Tajik border under the name of a certain Gennady Balanin.

Who profits out of this system?

A question is natural: who of the six RATS SOC members profits most of all out of the Shanghai initiatives?

Obviously, Russia gets nothing out of it. Above all, there are no terrorists escaping from the North Caucasus to Uzbekistan. According to official reports by FSB, there are almost no detentions made for Russia in Tajikistan, Kirgizia, Kazakhstan and China. It’s been for years that FSB calls Azerbaijan and Georgia to be a shelter for Chechen terrorists; and those countries are no SOC members.

Uzbekistan and China seem to be basic beneficiaries of the new counter-terrorist system of SOC.

In 2003 the headquarters of RATS moved from Bishkek to the Uzbek capital of Tashkent. In 2005 Russia has put the Hizb ut-Tahrir party, which is recognized to be legal in Europe and the US, into the list of terrorist organizations, under the request from Uzbekistan. The Uzbek President sees the threat for his personal power in the activities by this party featured with utopian theories about Islamic Caliphate, and he has been persecuting its members not only in his country, but also in Russia.

Soon Russia made another gift to Karimov. In a regular RATS meeting in March 2006 the first FSB director informed that Russia had given 19 people, suspected of membership in Hizb ut-Tahrir, to Uzbekistan.

In 2008 the Uzbek President’s enemies were announced to be a threat to Russian national security. In spring that-time FSB director Patrushev stated that “international terrorist organizations Hizb ut-Tahrir and Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU)” are basic threats for Russia.

Differently from Hizb ut-Tahrir, the IMU is a real fighting organization. However, in recent years the movement has been declining, and its remaining not numerous forces continue resistance somewhere at the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. There is no intelligence proving that IMU activities affect Russia. The movement’s leader Takhir Yuldashev has threatened recently with death to Presidents of some countries for persecution of Muslims. But that was about leaders of Uzbekistan, Kirgizia and Tajikistan, not Russia.

China is another state getting advantage out of the new system, as the Uigur separatists often escape to the Central Asian countries and the simplified procedure of their giving up plays the game of the Chinese special services.

Even today’s talk about expansion of SOC through inclusion of Iran and Pakistan are more advantageous for Uzbeks and Chinese, as people split off IMU are residing in Iran and there are camps of Uigur separatists in Pakistan.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Paul »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE-OAFZ8 ... re=related

While glancing through this video on youtube it occurred to me that there is a reason why Balchistan is being shown as a separate entity in the Ralph peters map. The west wants to retain this strategic piece of territory when Pakistan starts disintegerating. This is a redux of the pre 1947 plan where the Brits wanted to keep Balochistan to hedge their bets but then chnged their plans as they convinced of Pakistani fidelity to their interests.

I believe I have posted a link written by Ramtanu Maitra to this effect in the Balochistan thread.
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Post by svinayak »

Paul wrote: This is a redux of the pre 1947 plan where the Brits wanted to keep Balochistan to hedge their bets but then chnged their plans as they convinced of Pakistani fidelity to their interests.
Any docs on this.

What do you think of this map. This is gigantic vision
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR7OjC3KKBU
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Atri »

Acharya wrote:
Paul wrote: This is a redux of the pre 1947 plan where the Brits wanted to keep Balochistan to hedge their bets but then chnged their plans as they convinced of Pakistani fidelity to their interests.
Any docs on this.

What do you think of this map. This is gigantic vision
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR7OjC3KKBU
This guy is dreaming in high definition.. :mrgreen:

but liked the map, though.. mollified my Indic ego...
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by ramana »

X-post from the SL thread by Philip. Gives clue as to why Burma was split early on and later slowly the others from Greater India.
Philip wrote:
I heard a story recently when in the island ,about colonial "maps",geological surveys regarding the oil potential in the Indian subcontinent, pre-independence maps showing oil wealth on both coastlines of India,including Sri Lanka. It may have been an old civil servant's tale told to me, but in the early part of the last century,oil was the key factor that kept the RN and the British empire alive and kicking.The carving up of territory in the Middle East and Gulf,creation of new states beholden to Britain and the west,was due to the oil factor. In fact,right upto present times,with the latest disclosures of the Iraq Inquiry,capture and control of oil has been the predominant priority of the "Anglo-Saxon" world.The "Atlanticists" ,as some prefer them labelled,have built up huge "expeditionary" forces to support and execute this priority. In addition,client states,local dictators,despotic or benign monarchies,failing states-like Pak,have all been roped in to render yeoman service to the great cause,the real "Great Game",control of the energy resourcs of the world.

Now Sri Lanka, earlier Ceylon,with its almost 500 years of European rule,liberal democracy, exceptionally high rate of literacy and western institutions, after independence began to look in other directions for self-expression. The political regime of top-hat,tail-coated Senanayakes-father and son,and clansman Sir John Kotelawala,were replaced by the equally westernised SWRD Bandaranaike,scion of Maha Mudliar Sir Solomon Bandaranaike,top-hatted too,with a penchant for the gee-gees.However,the route that SWRD (Banda) took was in the other direction.He gave up his western attire (except for his pipe) and went "native",to the consternation of the capitalist class to which he was its most illustrious member.He picked as candidates for his party humble rural folk,not the pampered landowning gentry of Colombo. Making Sinhala the national language,spoken by the vast majority of its people,a language which had been supressed by the centuries of colonialism,awoke a strong sense of nationalism in the Ceylonese.After his assassination in a conspiracy by his fellow capitalists,his widow,Mrs.B.,Mrs.G's closest politcal friend,took the country on the path of Socialism along with her Leftist coalition partners and changed the name of the country to Sri Lanka,further underlining the fact that the island was returning to its ancient historic roots and vast heritage for inspiration for the future.

Given the island's strategic location,Trincomalee the prize port in the entire IOR,Mountbatten's HQ during WW2,large enough to accomodate the world's navies (I remember a former admiral who commanded one of our warships during a JET exercise there) marvelling at the port's characteristics),had several beady eyes cast on it during Cold War days. I remmeber the hoots of derisive laughter from the audience,when a Yanqui strategic "expert" in a lecture in Colombo,pretended not to know about Trinco! Coupled with the island's attractions,the ethnic mix was cleverly exploited by the "Christian west" through Yanqui missionaries,who had educated in the medium of English,the northern Tamils in the Jaffna Peninsula long before the rest of the Sinhalese .These well-educated Tamils became the mainstay of the administration during British rule and strong ties developed and were sustained even after independence through educating the natives in British instuitutions of learning.

However,what gave the west and Europeans a convenient handle was the diaspora of both Tamils and Sinhalese who fled the island after the riots of '83. These immigrants scattered across Europe,became a powerful,rich, political force and were wooed by their host nations to act as Proxies to further the interests of their hosts.The Tamil armed struggle and the LTTE's sole leadership of it,was manipulated for decades by those countries that had vested interests,chief amongst them to return Sri Lanka to its capitalist status,abandoning Non-Alignment ( a joint power sharing project where Tamils in the north along with the Sinhalese capitalist politicos would act as western agents.Unfortunately,Prabhakaran had delusions of grandeur and became uncontrollable given his JT pride).Ripe for the plucking would then be the wealth of Lanka-still undiscovered and the establishment of military bases from where the IOR could be controlled.Diego Garcia has no heavy repair facilities and apart from the established VOA radio station,would be ideal for the USN,RN,etc.The tilt towards rogue nations like China,Burma and Pak annoy the west,especially after Rajapakse gave the US and UK in particular the upturned finger .The Chinese presence is all over the island.In fact the Chinese are all over the globe,especially in the hot-spots of Asia and Africa,like soldier ants marching on building everything from dams,pwoer stations,ports,etc.,etc.

The west is trying to teach Rajapakse a lesson for his disobedience and Herr General Fonseka,lusting after a green card,is being used as a tool of the west.He is the perfect candidate for the US and its poodle,another military man who if elected will follow in the hallowed footsteps of Gen.Zia,Gen.Mush-a-rat the Bandicoot,and scores of other military dictators who have held sway over the banana and cocount republics of Asia,Africa and the Americas.The fact that he is Ranil's candidate as well as that of the JVP's is not a coincidence.His candidacy was probably first dreamt of in the bowels of Washington.Should he win,Lanka's dream post civil war will turn into another nightmare of even worse proportions.The big Q is what is India going to do with the situ in Lanka in a state of flux? Given our miserable diplomatic track record in Lanka,bugg*r all!
Philip you need to write a book or a diary and publish it.
ramana
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by ramana »

Philip posted this review in a now trashed thread....

Review of Full spectrum Dominance: Engdahl

Note how suddenly India comes into the review in the last pages.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:Philip posted this review in a now trashed thread....

Review of Full spectrum Dominance: Engdahl

Note how suddenly India comes into the review in the last pages.
Instead, Washington, under GHW Bush and his successors, "chose stealth, deception, lies and wars to attempt to control the Eurasian Heartland - its only potential rival as an economic region - by military (political, and economic) force," and by extension planet earth through an agenda later called "full spectrum dominance."

As a result, the Cold War never ended and today rages with over a trillion dollars spent annually on "defense" in all forms even though America has no enemy
WHich is the potential rival in the Eurasian Heartland.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Jarita »

It can't be ... can it
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by svinayak »

Jarita wrote:Middle East
Wrong
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Jarita »

^^^^ Yes i know. I changed it.. I am scared to say it but it is the country surrounded by 3 seas


This is what happened in India post lib

Western-imposed "shock therapy" meant "free market" hokum, mass privatizations, ending the public sphere, unrestricted access for foreign corporations unemcumbered by pesky regulations, deep social service cuts, loss of job security, poverty wages, repressive laws, and entire economies transformed to benefit a powerful corporate ruling class partnered with corrupted political elites. Globally, Russia got billionaire "oligarchs," China "the princelings," Chile "the piranhas," and in new millennium America the Bush-Cheney "Pioneers" and Obama Wall Street Top Guns wrecking global havoc for self-enrichment.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Jarita »

^^^ from same article

However, by the 1960s, new forms of covert regime change emerged along the lines that RAND studies called "swarming" - the idea being to develop social manipulation techniques or disruptive outbreaks short of wars or violent uprisings.

Does this not sound like what happened in India last year



ON THAT NOTE ACHARYA
you have to explain why the country I ref to would be target. Also, GHbushes actions were against the middle east -Iraq, not against the country I ref to..
Or is it the series of proxy wars that have taken place since the late 70's. Afganistan exacerbated the situation and shut off access.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by ramana »

See every so often an idea comes and one has to embrace it and when the storm passes discard it. In the 20th century it was the end of monarchies and rise of socialism. The world saw periodic economic crashes which re-engineered the societies. War is economics by other means and vice versa.

India is still the last outpost of the non-Middle Eastern thought process and for the borg to rise it(India) has to be subverted. Indians are good at self conquest. So that is the path. Only some folks like here chat and think things over.

Shutting off happened with Partition and even before that with Burma. All the areas are hinterland for Indian thought process. Its for the new generations to see how to revive it.
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by brihaspati »

The "thinking" non-WKK new generation already has developed strong allergies for these regions - they dont even want to touch it with a barge pole. Win win situation for the borg. I am tempted to subvert the sentiments behind riling the khuspoos. But people are already showing their teeth in warning! But if we don't stop thinking of them as khuspoos, how will the valiant singles in a future time be able to make "honest" women out of them? In the process, replace the culture - softly, very softly?

Pooch to ramanaji!
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Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi

Post by Prem »

One thing must be understood, Pakis will provide the oppertunity to intervene and we will have no choice but to react so it does not matter what WKK do or think as they will be extinct soon. The kind of antagonistic momentum building up now is very different than what was in 60s or 70s. The aar paar or sent to bhaarr will happen in next 10 years and there is no escape but to face it , manage it and use it to erase the early mistakes.
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