Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Aug 2011 03:53

JE Menon wrote:>>I am Pakistani of Indian origin.

Wrong. Pakistan is of Indian origin. Pakistanis are Arab and Central Asian origin, or Turkish even. Most of them are tall fair and tight-assed. And almost everybody is a direct descendant of their prophet.

And they are all first cousins.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Aug 2011 03:56

Virupaksha wrote:So the process of rejection of the Jinnah himself by the Paki "liberals" has started. He is already rejected by the conservatives. Got to see if Jinnah rejection gains traction.

Yeah, and let's hope Advani does not rush to his defense this time.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Aug 2011 05:49

Paki honor and dignity which is protected by bandwagoning that echandee with Islam has to be battered and crushed to such an extent that Pakis will be able to join a nation that is called India. Only at that stage can Pakis become Indians. Right now Paki echandee and identity rests of

1. We are not Indian
2. We are Indian, but Muslims who would have been oppressed by bigoted Hindus
3. We were the rulers of India and Indians would do well to be ruled by us

These are the narratives that have been pushed in Pakistan since partition. I am certain that the minute a Paki acquires some wealth and some food to eat he starts believing in all this - so the only Pakis who can possibly become Indian is the poorest and most screwed up Paki.

This wealthy Paki is the very class of Paki who allied with the USA and depended on the US and now China to survive. Every wealthy Pakistani belongs to this class. They represent Pakistan's strength and Pakistan's identity.

Perhaps the best thing India can do to Pakistan is to let Pakistanis live as a separate country but hinge trade on the development of normal inter state relations like not encouraging crime and terrorism in India. Pakistan is a horrendous monster state - but its survival was greatly aided by the US "acting in its own interest". A big priority in making Pakistan a "normal state" is to force the US by hook or by crook to stop arming Pakistan. Pakistan managed armed forces that were 3-4 times bigger than its national resources would allow solely by bandwagoning with the USA. If I ever write a book again I would like to concentrate on the ways in which Pakistan has been strengthened and supported by its alliance with a USA "acting in US interest".

It does not matter if aid to Pakistan is eaten up by the wealthy and the poor of Pakistan are screwed even more - but teh powerful Paki army and LeT/Jamaat ud Dawa should not have the benefit of the latest arms that makes them cocky. I anticipate that they will enhance nuclear threats if the flow of conventional arms is reduced. But that would be bravado. The Pakistan army has to shrink to 1/3 of its current size. The assorted terrorist groups who depend on the army (which gets US support by a USA "acting in US interests") will fade in strength and influence as they get militarily weaker. Even if the US stops arming Pakistan today - it will be 2021 before Pakistan army really feels any major effect that is difficult to correct without further US arms aid.

If we can pressure the USA to quit arms aid, we will be in a much stronger position to see of the irrational Islamist threat posed by the Paki army and the dysfunctional Paki state. Whether the state remains intact or not is a different issue. I am dead certain that India's rejection of hight ticket offensive weapons from the USA is related to the US arming of Pakistan. The US may retain a veto power on the Pakistani military but will not get a veto power on the Indian military. Better India US ties, with much more trust are possible when the USA stops arming Pakistan ("out of US interest"). I have something to say about that - but in a different thread.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 17 Aug 2011 05:49

From What cut? US continues to fund Pakistan military

NEW DELHI: Despite the US declaring a cut in funding to Pakistan, the Obama administration has asked for an additional $1.5 billion in "coalition support funds" for the 2012 financial year. Pakistan has in the past received over 75% of these additional funds which are technically meant for all of US' allies.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Aug 2011 06:01

Anindya wrote:From What cut? US continues to fund Pakistan military

NEW DELHI: Despite the US declaring a cut in funding to Pakistan, the Obama administration has asked for an additional $1.5 billion in "coalition support funds" for the 2012 financial year. Pakistan has in the past received over 75% of these additional funds which are technically meant for all of US' allies.

Pakistanis are past masters at figuring out American fears and using American language to tell Americans what Pakistanis need. Yesterday there was ths Paki who say Karachi is like Detroit and might go the Detroit way.

Now look at this snake oil seller Imtiaz Gul - but before I make the quote let me post some background information
1. Pakistan invited Chinese troops into PoK
2. Pakistan asked China to take over Gwadar
3. Pakistan says China will supply 50 JF-17s (will write more about that in the other forum

) and J-10Bs
4. Pakistan hands over US stealth helo for Chinese inspection

But Imtiaz Gul plays on US fears by writing this:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 254891.cms

And here lies the core of Pakistan-US differences - a conflict between America's short-term objective to extricate most of its troops out of Afghanistan, and the Pakistani attempt to prevent further damage to its long-term interests in a war that has cost it more than 35,000 civilian and military casualties and severely hurt the economy.

This divergence, however, is unlikely to derail the relationship altogether. For one, America's partial withdrawal from Afghanistan requires a friction-free engagement with Pakistan. Second, the US cannot afford to vacate the space for Beijing. (says this Paki) Gen David Petraeus's trip to Rawalpindi on July 13 and Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha's parleys in Washington around the same time should be seen in this context - of mutual dependence.

I don't think BRFites should worry too much about Pakis who call themselves Indian. Our real worry is the Indians who accept that. The way this Imtiaz Gul peddles his tripe in the Times of ~~India~~ Islamabad - it is clear that it takes two hands to clap. One hand is the Paki saying "I am Indian, listen to me" The other hand is the Indian saying 'Yes Yes yes yesss. You are Indian. I will listen to you and willingly drink your snake oil"

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Aug 2011 06:39

menon s wrote:^^^^ This is Chanakyaness, the other aggrieved party is Bangaldesh. For them, loosing garment exports means a lot lot more than India. GOI knows that Bangladesh will not back out, and so a change in stance.

Ohh. . . I love this. The moment I read about Indian PM's intervention, I was expecting some BRfite to explain it away as a 'Chanakyan' move. I am never disappointed.

Only one thing I do not understand in this chanakyan move. Why did we object to this in the first place and drag Pakistan to WTO if we are so scared of taking on Pakistan and need to employ subterfuge through the powerful Bangladesh ?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Aug 2011 07:41

SSridhar wrote:
menon s wrote:^^^^ This is Chanakyaness, the other aggrieved party is Bangaldesh. For them, loosing garment exports means a lot lot more than India. GOI knows that Bangladesh will not back out, and so a change in stance.
Ohh. . . I love this. The moment I read about Indian PM's intervention, I was expecting some BRfite to explain it away as a 'Chanakyan' move. I am never disappointed.

Only one thing I do not understand in this chanakyan move. Why did we object to this in the first place and drag Pakistan to WTO if we are so scared of taking on Pakistan and need to employ subterfuge through the powerful Bangladesh ?

It's a fight between the lick and kick paki arms of the GOI.

Head of the lick paki arm has spoken.

But the kick paki arm will not surrender so easily......

It really says something that MMS has to over rule his own babus who have

taken a contrary position openly against his stated views. The pakis are well

aware of the position and opposition.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 17 Aug 2011 07:48

shravan wrote:Taliban commander Fazal Mehsud arrested in Karachi
http://www.dawn.com/2011/08/16/taliban- ... rachi.html

TTP commander Fazal Mehsud released on bail in Karachi
http://www.samaa.tv/newsdetail.aspx?ID=35446&CID=1

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 17 Aug 2011 08:04

From MKBs gems of wisdom

Sharif, like our PM, too, will survive the current sniping at him.

..he..he.he the kind of sniping on the other side is somewhat different

The Indian pundits are exasperatingly slow in adjusting to the spirit of our times.

Perhaps they are still somewhat deaf from the bum blast of Mumbai?

Let MKB's great 6' 6" tall mature statesman Nawaz-mian first rein in his own brother, the fanatic barbaric jehadi terrorist animal that wants eternal war with India for Islam.

All this taqiya is just to fool useful idiots on our side.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Aug 2011 08:06

Somehow I find it difficult to believe that news item. How can negotiators do all the paperwork to block help to Pakistan and all that be reversed by a word from MMS. For MMS's word to work the paperwork will have to be redone after an official communication from India that India has dropped its reservations and the EU once again has to sanction that aid. It can;t be done by simply snapping a finger.

If bureaucratic procedures can be reversed on whims - then all agreements can be rubbished easily. Will wait to see how this plays out.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Aug 2011 08:30

shiv wrote:How can negotiators do all the paperwork to block help to Pakistan and all that be reversed by a word from MMS.

You raised a valid question, Shiv. But, I think there is an answer to that. The whole thing is very chanakyan. I get it now. We decided to play good-cop, bad-cop game once again.

Some countries are full of CTs. We have indigenouized that and are full of CTs too (Chanakyan Theories).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Aug 2011 08:33

Suppiah wrote: Nawaz-mian first rein in his own brother, the fanatic barbaric jehadi terrorist animal that wants eternal war with India for Islam.

No need to rein in the brother. He is an important Islamic Pakistani. It is important in this day and age to show what Islam is doing. Let the whole world know about Islam. After all people are converting in droves. I'm told. Fastest growing religion they claim. In Britain at least. That explains a lot of things to me

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 17 Aug 2011 08:35

Many of us has been wondering, why is the U.S still supportive of Pakistan. Why the U.S still funds Pakistan. Many will come to the conclusion that its because the U.S considers its interests and Pakistan is need for them while India is not needed in the war against terror or relationship with India is far less significant.
But my view is that it's not so. The reason for U.S still funding Pakistan is that they see in funding Pakistan outweighed benefits from not doing so. Only recently this equation with Pakistan was changing because the benefits seems less and more of a trouble and loss hence many are rethinking about the aid.
From India's point of view, we complain about being cheated by the U.S, so and so..
The U.S is not against having a good relationship with India. No nation will ever be in the present situation. But that relationship must be so valuable or it must be big loss for them if they did have a good relationship with India. It was surely valuable for the U.S but the loss to U.S for breaking the trust was not there. Even when the U.S supported Pakistan, the relationship between India and U.S was never affected. So the U.S was able to do what they wanted for their own gains. India lost. If India must have put good relationship with U.S solely if it's beneficial to India and not being harmful to India, things must not have got worse. Now the U.S is having a rethink on their policy vis-a-vis Pakistan. It's time that India tells the U.S to either choose India or Pakistan. And we'll call the shots in the Indian subcontinent. But MMS is sleeping. Either he has to wake up or this govt need to be voted out in the next election.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Aug 2011 08:36

SSridhar wrote:
shiv wrote:How can negotiators do all the paperwork to block help to Pakistan and all that be reversed by a word from MMS.
You raised a valid question, Shiv. But, I think there is an answer to that. The whole thing is very chanakyan. I get it now. We decided to play good-cop, bad-cop game once again.

Some countries are full of CTs. We have indegenized that and are full of CTs too (Chanakyan Theories).

Sridhar I would accept the chankyanism explanation of MMS has said that but there is no official move to change anything or remove India's objection. That way MMS comes out looking like he is bending over backwards for friendship and is being stopped by hardliners, rightwingers, extremists - but he means goodwill onlee. But the block should stay.

The "Bangladesh will refuse" statement is wrong - the original news item itself says that if India drops its objections the other countries will fall in line.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 17 Aug 2011 08:38

shiv wrote:
Suppiah wrote: Nawaz-mian first rein in his own brother, the fanatic barbaric jehadi terrorist animal that wants eternal war with India for Islam.
No need to rein in the brother. He is an important Islamic Pakistani. It is important in this day and age to show what Islam is doing. Let the whole world know about Islam. After all people are converting in droves. I'm told. Fastest growing religion they claim. In Britain at least. That explains a lot of things to me

You sound like the way Pat Condell argues for letting Andy Chaudhary speak as much as he wants to...any inspiration?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Aug 2011 08:49

uddu wrote: But my view is that it's not so. The reason for U.S still funding Pakistan is that they see in funding Pakistan outweighed benefits from not doing so. Only recently this equation with Pakistan was changing because the benefits seems less and more of a trouble and loss hence many are rethinking about the aid.
From India's point of view, we complain about being cheated by the U.S, so and so..
The U.S is not against having a good relationship with India. No nation will ever be in the present situation. But that relationship must be so valuable or it must be big loss for them if they did have a good relationship with India. It was surely valuable for the U.S but the loss to U.S for breaking the trust was not there. Even when the U.S supported Pakistan, the relationship between India and U.S was never affected.

It was affected alright. Let me recall some history here. I have posted news items of warnings from India in the late 1960s that relations would be affected. And sure enough the 20 year India-Soviet agreement that gave cover USSR support to India in 1971 against US interests was the clearest indicator of India US relations being in deep chill. It is ironic and educative to note that India's strongest prime minister took the most powerful and significant anti US actions. And still the US could not break off relations with India. It could only fret and fume.

The US was operating from a position of weakness wrt to Pakistan. The US could not afford to antagonise Pakistan but they could afford to antagonise India. The US had a leg up on India because there was not a lot India could do. But Pakistan had a leg up on the US because no matter what the US farted about "Democracy" they could not support India against a Paki military dictatorship.

From time to time the US has squirmed and shown anger at Pakistan, and has equally tried to maintain a good relationship with India - knowing that US balls are being squeezed by Pakistan. But the US has always needed Pakistan more than India and the US has been made subservient to Pakistani interests. This is a US weakness and must be recognised as such.

if the US controls Pakistan, then we can control Pakistan only be controlling the US. But if Pakistan controls the US we can change the way the US behaves by threatening Pakistan. Huge difference.

In 1998 one more Indian PM, Vajpayee took an action that upset the US's applecart. It also upset munna. But it changed the world. Challenging US authority and risking ties with the US may be a good strategy, but it has costs.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Aug 2011 08:51

Suppiah wrote:
You sound like the way Pat Condell argues for letting Andy Chaudhary speak as much as he wants to...any inspiration?

Suppiahji - I have been saying the same things even before the first Pat Condell videos arrived - in fact before YouTube. But I must hand it out to Condell for showing his face on YouTube and risking wajib ul cutlet in islamic Britainistan.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 17 Aug 2011 09:15

[quoteI am Pakistani of Indian origin.[/quote]

Application accepted for this Poaqri. She has claimed a SDRE Sardar from india.
[youtube]aFBS4uZNDUo&feature=related[/youtube]

partha · Post by **partha** » 17 Aug 2011 09:36

partha · Post by **partha** » 17 Aug 2011 09:54

http://www.dawn.com/2011/08/17/six-lost ... rachi.html

Six more people lost their lives as incidents of target killings continued overnight in Karachi, DawnNews reported

Well on its way to become Detroit

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 17 Aug 2011 10:44

shiv wrote:
Suppiah wrote:
You sound like the way Pat Condell argues for letting Andy Chaudhary speak as much as he wants to...any inspiration?
Suppiahji - I have been saying the same things even before the first Pat Condell videos arrived - in fact before YouTube. But I must hand it out to Condell for showing his face on YouTube and risking wajib ul cutlet in islamic Britainistan.

Ha..shiv saar I was just referring specifically to strategy of allowing Islamic spokesman to spread the truth and not the cleansed up fake taqiya passed off as true ROP...to WKK/pseudo-liberal audiences

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 17 Aug 2011 10:46

Tallel friend shelves another project..

http://www.dawn.com/2011/08/17/china-pl ... seful.html

They are worrying about putting land to good use...why no set up madrasas? What can be more pure than that in the republic of pure?

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 17 Aug 2011 11:01

Karachi: Half dozen Pakdullahs dispatched to Djannat in gunnny bags

KARACHI: Six more people lost their lives as incidents of target killings continued overnight in Karachi, DawnNews reported.

Police on Wednesday found bodies of six men, stuffed in gunny bags, from different parts of the metropolis. All the victims were shot at from point blank range, added police officials.

Three bodies were found in the city’s PECHS {Doesent that mean 'dysentery' in urdu? } (Pakistan Employees Cooperative Housing Society) area while one each from the Soldier Bazar, Saddar and Gulbahar areas.

Code: Select all

http://www.dawn.com/2011/08/17/six-lost-lives-as-violence-continues-in-karachi.html

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 17 Aug 2011 11:06

This man understands TSP very well indeed...a lesson Unkil and now tallel also seems to learn very slowly...of course, our super smart MMS will never learn.

Pakistan’s core state is like a stubborn mule that seldom moves without a sound thrashing.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2011_pg3_3

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 17 Aug 2011 12:05

Guys so far the story about MMS intervening in the EU issue seems to be a dud, but I wouldn't rule it out yet. Some crap is going on and not clear yet. Story may be a pre-emptive by people totally opposed to it.

Myself, I would not rule out such a move from the PM. If he has done it, it will be gross error of judgement and entirely the result of his apparently muddled thinking on Pakistan - and his sycophantic entourage who do not have the guts to call it like it is, probably over-estimating India's capacity to influence Pakistan (again).

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Aug 2011 12:57

Some crap is going on and not clear yet. Story may be a pre-emptive by people totally opposed to it.

I would go with this theory....similar to how SeS and Siachen type stuff were pre-empted.

Dont think there can be smoke without fire( about MMS name repeatedly turning up asking for EU favour to Pak)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Aug 2011 13:52

Let's remember that it was MMS who sent the invitation to Gilani for the Mohali mela discarding channels through MEA and keeping SMK in the dark (not that SMK would have minded the slight). At SeS too, he directly dictated to and/or corrected the Foreign Secretary in the write-up of the Joint statement. He has taken it upon himself to act unilaterally in the Pakistan issue. Considering his lack of attention to other areas and consequently the general drift in governance that the country suffers from, this keenness on Pakistan stands out like a very sore thumb. I would therefore not be surprised if indeed the news item turned out to be true. We will wait.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 17 Aug 2011 17:04

What's McCain doing in Kashmir? He's there after visiting Pakistan.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Aug 2011 17:48

Gus wrote:What's McCain doing in Kashmir? He's there after visiting Pakistan.

Well, this is what he was doing.

During their wide ranging discussions lasting for about two hours, Senator McCain and Vohra

The Governor hosted lunch for Senator McCain and other members of the delegation which comprised Foreign Policy Advisors Christian Brose and Vance Serchuk and US Military Escort Lieutenant Lawrence Heyworth, a Raj Bhavan spokesman said.

The US senator, who lost the US presidential election to Barack Obama, also met Chief Minister Omar Abdullah. The two leaders discussed matters relating to the socio-economic development and protection of environment, an official spokesman said.

It is up to us to interpret the meaning.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 17 Aug 2011 17:59

SSridhar wrote:"The two leaders discussed matters relating to the socio-economic development and protection of environment, an official spokesman said."

Right! McCain discussing the environment! May be if he had brought Al Gore along, the explanation may have been more believable.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Aug 2011 18:15

Lies and more Damn Lies

Pak military's intentions towards India 'overrated': Khar

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 17 Aug 2011 18:31

Aditya_V wrote:Lies and more Damn Lies

Pak military's intentions towards India 'overrated': Khar

She contended that Pakistan's foreign policy was not directed by the army, which was one of the institutions "taken on board" while making decisions on key issues.

Scratching the army's back - she does not want a bullet in her's

.

"The dialogue process with India should be uninterrupted and uninterruptible, and the environment we found there was exceptionally healthy.

I wonder why ?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Aug 2011 18:46

Neela wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Lies and more Damn Lies

Pak military's intentions towards India 'overrated': Khar

She contended that Pakistan's foreign policy was not directed by the army, which was one of the institutions "taken on board" while making decisions on key issues.
Scratching the army's back - she does not want a bullet in her's .

"The dialogue process with India should be uninterrupted and uninterruptible, and the environment we found there was exceptionally healthy.
I wonder why ?

Fool me once , shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Are we to be fooled yet again?

and this time by a hotel management graduate and innkeeper!!! with fancy duds?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 17 Aug 2011 19:00

Aditya_V wrote:Lies and more Damn Lies

Pak military's intentions towards India 'overrated': Khar

No Taqiyya please! Sharing Takhiya is okay!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Aug 2011 19:05

RajeshA wrote:
SSridhar wrote:"The two leaders discussed matters relating to the socio-economic development and protection of environment, an official spokesman said."

Right! McCain discussing the environment! May be if he had brought Al Gore along, the explanation may have been more believable.

The 'environment' is codespeak for turning Siachen into a park so the TSP can latter occupy it. No wonder he went to TSP first. Wouldnt trust a US senator that too ex-Military to be impartial to TSP.

Anyway try to google his advisors/stance and point of view.

subodh · Post by **subodh** » 17 Aug 2011 19:07

Chetak - "Are we to be fooled yet again?"

I suspect this is aimed at the US audience - hopefully, no one in the Indian establishment takes the contents seriously.

But this is for Newsweek (Pak edition) - so it can be recirculated among the fan base in DC as being from a 'respectable' publication, to help shore up a fast crumbling support base for the country in the US end of things.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Aug 2011 20:59

SSridhar wrote: The US senator, who lost the US presidential election to Barack Obama, also met Chief Minister Omar Abdullah. The two leaders discussed matters relating to the socio-economic development and protection of environment, an official spokesman said.

It is up to us to interpret the meaning.

Here is my interpretation. Recall, as much as McCain gives a rodent's behind when it comes to environment, global warming, and any change in US consumption/lifestyle in combating them, environemntal issues become a big deal when it comes to India, specifically, US has been making some noises of late about Indian army in Siachen causing some environmental damaage or some crap like that. I don't have the specific news reports or links handy, but I do recall US pushing this angle to draw some concessions from India on Siachen. So more likely, McCaine was delivering TSP's mantra on Siachen and to make it palatable to Indians sans MMS (who is on board anway to give up whole of Kashmir to TSP, not just Siachen), he may have masqueraded his urging of concessions from India to TSP on Siachen through some environmental BS.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Aug 2011 21:05

Guys, I have a tube light moment regarding the recent Panetta statement saying TSPA has links with Haqqani and LeT (as if we don't know that), but relationship with TSP must go on. Many interpreted this as screws turning on, but to me, this is more of a code speak and an opening to TSPA saying if you take on Haqqani, then not only will the relationship go on, but it will become profuse love. It could also be code speak to India saying look, you want us to get tought with TSPA for its links with LeT, but we can't because we need them to fight the mighty Al Queda, and besides, TSPA has links with Haqqani too (our bad guys) and despite that we have a relationship with TSP, and so you must too.

anandsgh · Post by **anandsgh** » 17 Aug 2011 21:06

http://www.dawn.com/2011/08/17/ppp-memb ... rachi.html

One more PPP Jiyala shaheedized!!

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Aug 2011 21:14

IMHO, there is no mystery to McCain's visit to J&K. The US is trying to broker an agreement on Siachen both sides pull back and the line of actual control or existing positions are demarcated and agreed to and verified and monitored by US satellites. The sticking with the Pakis is they have not wanted to agree to the demarcated position at the time of pullback. IIRC, the IA is OK with pullback if the lines are agreed to on a map and signed off by both sides.