Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

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Prem
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Prem »

India Has Big Plans for Burning Coal
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... rning-coal
India is poised to contend with China as the globe's top consumer of coal, with 455 power plants preparing to come online, a prominent environmental research group has concluded.The coal plants in India's pipeline -- almost 100 more than China is preparing to build -- would deliver 519,396 megawatts of installed generating capacity. That is only slightly less than pending new capacity in China, which remains the undisputed king of coal consumption.
The data from the World Resources Institute (WRI), not released publicly but obtained by ClimateWire, paint a picture of a global energy trajectory in which coal remains a dominant actor, despite concerns about rising costs and environmental groups' trumpeting of the reduced costs of renewable energy.The research found 1,231 new coal plants with a total installed capacity of more than 1.4 million MW proposed worldwide. Beyond the biggest users -- China, India and the United States -- the assessment finds a heavy coal demand building up in Russia, Vietnam, Turkey and South Africa. The United States, with 79 coal plants in the pipeline, ranks fourth in this category.
( And CT says , Massa will export most of its Coal to Desi Ghol Matols.)
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by nakul »

Yes, Walmart doesn't magically bring people out of poverty, in the same way that it also hasn't resulted in world peace or put a man on Mars. What it does do is drive down prices, making more goods affordable for more people. In that way, it makes people "less poor" because they can afford more goods than they would have otherwise.

This is a negative for people who are involved in marking up product prices for no particular reason, but good for everyone else. In other words, it's a huge net positive.

If we wanted to do away with efficiency and cost-cutting, then we should stop using computers, cars or any industrial tool. This is an old and tired argument that has repeatedly been proven false. A country at India's stage of development needs all the productivity enhancements it can get -- that is the only way we get rich.
I have been to Indian superstores and none of them have sold fruits & vegetables at costs less than outsiders. I don't know where this cheap WalMart has entered into our minds. If they manage to procure it for cheap, then they surely haven't passed it to the consumers yet. On the poor side, its not efficiency that matters, it is a source of livelihood. While WalMart (if) they make food cheaper than existing market prices, people who rely on current models will have to start looking for new jobs. A slight price decrease of 10-20% will not help when the means to earn is taken away from you.
Brilliant. So companies should not have to invest in all the parts of their operation that actually allow them to run, because it costs too much money for the average rural Jai to do so.

Let's apply this argument to some other industries.

I believe the airline industry has too high a barrier to entry -- heck, I need to buy multimillion dollar planes to start my own airline! Let's make those fancy planes illegal. Only bullock cart operators are allowed to transport people from point A to point B, because that way the cost of entry is low enough for anyone to start their own "airline".

I want to start a manufacturing plant, but all that shiny machinery is just too expensive! Let's make a law that everything has to be made by hand by fourth-grade dropouts, so that anyone can start manufacturing anything they want.

Getting a medicine degree is out of reach for 99% of Indians -- so can we please let anyone start their own medical practice?
Thankfully (for you), the govt is already following your mandate. They should have built roads, storage facilities & lowered the price of aviation fuel. But none of this will fill their coffers. So they take the easy way out -- FDI instead of doing what govt is meant to do. Make a level playing field. They can build cold storage facilities, new highways & allow everyone to reap the benfits. On the contrary, we have the retail sector relying on broken infrastructure to move their goods. They shout it to the govt but the govt instead of oqning up blame the archaic model and open the doors for FDI. Hit two birds with one stone!
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20317 »

Re. Abhijeet Post subject: Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012Posted: 19 Sep 2012 01:03

Abhijeet ji, please let me state my stand clearly:

1) I would like to retain the privilege of sharing my personal experience with my fellow countrymen to the extent I can and to the extent they care to listen. They are off course free to treat it as phokat ki advise. IOW, I am trying to share what I consider are my priceless experiences, people are free to treat it as worthless considering they did not pay the price for my experiences.

2) I am not saying that Supply chain sophistication is not required and that Gora involvement is to be disregarded. What I am saying is that all of can be achieved without handing over the driver’s seat to Gora. Indian entrepreneurs actually have already completed much bigger challenges in this business, albeit of a less glamorous kind that involved a smaller tick size of capital investments. The foremost requirement to enable Indian entrepreneurs is an environment conducive to business consolidation. Also I do have some additional doubts as to the level of involvement/learning that Indians are going to get in an enterprise led by Mallechas. I suspect the position of Indians will remain like it was in the Telecom industry. We are a big market but every piece of technology is sourced directly or indirectly from outside India. Indians are merely consumers of the telecom revolution and feel threatened with every piece of Huawei equipment with hardly a chance of ever matching Huawei. This to my mind is only half the sky. In case of retail, Indians will be used to running billing softwares and housekeeping management.

3) I am not saying that supply chains are not sophisticated requirements. I am aware that supply chain sophistication is directly related to the level of challenges thrown up by procurement/distribution issues which are proportionately bigger in India than in the rest of the world. Allow me to share one of my own experience here. Recently I was in the market for an Airconditioner. Coincidently everything in ACs is sourced from China and by all the vendors. But it was the Godrej product that had the best value for money on offer (thicker longer copper coiling, 4 star rating at reasonable prices and aftersales). Some international brands had better ratings at cheaper prices, but employed aluminium coiling of shorter length and thinner kind which corrode faster in acrid NCR air. Still others had better of everything but carried a risk as to aftersales. Coincidently also the kind of supply chain that FDI in Retail entails will also require a lot of airconditioning. What makes you think Godrej cannot do it or at least indigenize it. But for such a state of affairs Indian government will have to think less of what the world thinks of it and start thinking about what Indians want from it. Also the Indian neta gan will have to weigh the need to invest their black money against the need to get re-elected.

4) I am also not saying that Indian should disregard means of getting the products cheaper for the benefit of poorer citizens. What I am saying is that poorer by definition have lesser money and more requirements. And money, whatever little of it one has is an opportunity for skills development. I am willing to wager that a large number of people who actually came up from difficult circumstances took this route. So why would it be different for those are in difficult circumstances right now. And how would new distractions help their cause. This becomes especially important in a situation where larger dollops of money may not get a better career for our people but worthier investments in education will begin to become dearer. I fail to understand why the pitch is sought to be skewed for the poorer sections by creating the strawman of ‘freedom of consumption’. But they at least need to be told the truth of how most of Middle India grew out of its poorer roots.

5) Also I am not saying that people are not free to decide as to their own consumption requirements. I however, am saying that all of India should not be saddled with a ‘keep up with the joneses’ race when that is clearly a requirement for only a thin veneer of Metro walas. Please notice I said requirement and not desire. I do mirror your views when you say
As I've said before, India is decades away from a situation where most people over-consume anything -- heck, we have a long way to go to simply get to the global average in terms of per-capita consumption of just about everything. More products within the reach of more people = overwhelmingly good at this stage of our development.
. However I am doubting the will or even the ability of Walmart types to supply what is needed, within the meaning of “More products within the reach of more people”.

6) Re. you second line
Worrying about over-consumption or the "wrong" type of consumption is talk that's just completely divorced from reality.
If people advocating consumption are allowed to advertise their merchandise what is wrong with people advocating patience being allowed to advertise their wares. Since you and I share the faith in the inherent capability of people to decide for themselves and since I have made peace with FDI in retail, I guess it would not be too much to ask of you to bear with me or at least allow others to bear with me. In fact rest assured both of us are incapable of deciding for others and both of us are quite capable of speaking about our own experiences.

7) Also I am not saying that wastage cannot be addressed by better supply chain management. But what makes you think a supply chain geared to bringing fresher vegetables to city dwellers is suitable for management of grains rotting in FCI godowns. Also what make you think you will get FDI to increase storage/trucking capacities in India. All of such investments are sought to be outsourced by every kind of businessmen. Why would Walmart types be any different. Well I will go out and say that it make imminent business sense to get somebody else to invest in storages and trucking facilities if one is serious about ones business. But that is a business perspective not a citizens perspective.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by amit »

ravi_g wrote:2) I am not saying that Supply chain sophistication is not required and that Gora involvement is to be disregarded. What I am saying is that all of can be achieved without handing over the driver’s seat to Gora. Indian entrepreneurs actually have already completed much bigger challenges in this business, albeit of a less glamorous kind that involved a smaller tick size of capital investments. The foremost requirement to enable Indian entrepreneurs is an environment conducive to business consolidation. Also I do have some additional doubts as to the level of involvement/learning that Indians are going to get in an enterprise led by Mallechas. I suspect the position of Indians will remain like it was in the Telecom industry. We are a big market but every piece of technology is sourced directly or indirectly from outside India. Indians are merely consumers of the telecom revolution and feel threatened with every piece of Huawei equipment with hardly a chance of ever matching Huawei. This to my mind is only half the sky. In case of retail, Indians will be used to running billing softwares and housekeeping management.
Ravi ji,

If Indians can do it - that is build worldclass retail supply chains - then the question you should ask yourself is, "Why haven't they done so already?" Retail is a $500 billion business in India and growing at more than 20 per cent. And we've had home grown organised retail chains for about 10 or more yet why is there's still 30 per cent/$12 billion wastage of farm produce every year? Maybe you should try to answer this question.

Your example with Telecom is not correct I'm afraid. If you are talking about signalling equipment, there are only a handful of suppliers, Nokia-Siemens, Ericsson, Huwaei and to a lesser extent ZTE. The last two Chinese entities have been able to come up due the peculiar situation in China and it's government's relentless pursuit of IP. I suggest, that if you have time ask Uncle Gogal about Huwaei, Cisco and a smaller matter of a about a million lines of code. I think you'd find it very interesting reading. More to the point, even in the US every bit of signalling equipment - be it 3G or LTE is sourced from Europe as the US does not have companies in that business. Regarding handsets, I don't know if you are aware but Nokia and others have huge production facilities in India and so the handset you may be using - unless it's one of the high-end smart phones - is most likely to have been made in India by Indians in an India located factory.

Finally Telecoms and retail supply chains are apples to oranges comparison. The former is all about hardware whereas the latter is about soft management skills and the use of IT for just in time delivery. Again if you have the time read up about retail supply chains, there's plenty of stuff online. I can assure you, like me, you'll find it to be immensely interesting.
3) I am not saying that supply chains are not sophisticated requirements. I am aware that supply chain sophistication is directly related to the level of challenges thrown up by procurement/distribution issues which are proportionately bigger in India than in the rest of the world. Allow me to share one of my own experience here. Recently I was in the market for an Airconditioner. Coincidently everything in ACs is sourced from China and by all the vendors.
So the China bogey vis a vis retail is a strawman, I guess you'd agree? Dumping by China is a real and persistent concern but that's independent of whether we allow 51 per cent FDI in multi-brand retail or not.
7) Also I am not saying that wastage cannot be addressed by better supply chain management. But what makes you think a supply chain geared to bringing fresher vegetables to city dwellers is suitable for management of grains rotting in FCI godowns. Also what make you think you will get FDI to increase storage/trucking capacities in India. All of such investments are sought to be outsourced by every kind of businessmen. Why would Walmart types be any different. Well I will go out and say that it make imminent business sense to get somebody else to invest in storages and trucking facilities if one is serious about ones business. But that is a business perspective not a citizens perspective.
Again, I'm afraid you apparently don't seem to understand the way retail supply chains work. Why do you think FCI godowns are filled with grain which is either rotting or being eaten by rats? That's because farmers get better prices from the government than they do from Mandi thekedars who in any case have limited storage capacity. Large retailers, because of the elimination of the middleman, can offer better prices to farmer and we wouldn't have distress sales to government which is always politicaly pressured to raise the support prices in order to help farmers. There is a link posted on this page which says that farmers who take all the risk and cost in sowing and farming typically get 20 per cent of what you and I pay at the shops while the middleman who takes no risks or makes any investment gets around 45 per cent. That's the politically powerful group who's unhappy with this measure and that unhappiness is being expressed by various political parties.

As regards your point that Walmart types "outsource" supply chains to third parties, I can only say "Wow, kya baat, kya baat!" You got to be kidding! The supply chain is the lifeblood of any retailer and saying they can and would outsource would be akin to saying that a bank can outsource their deposit collection to a third party! Again please read up some materials about supply chain management in the retail sector.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Pratyush »

The question is why not have FDI in retail with a compulsion to source 100% items from an Indian supplier? Ok India at the moment doesnot have the supplier base. But that can be created with assured demand. That will be generated by the large retail chains. Or if the target of 100% Indian suppliers cannot be met. Then have a progressive indiginisation clause in the regulation. Which states that after X years of operations in the Indian market, you must source 100% of supplies from an Indian supplier.

Given the size of the Indian population pool, the skill base and the lack of employment opportunities. Most of the Indian population will be happy with the Jobs that they get.

The main thrust of my argument is lets create job and tons of them.

We can worry about sweatshops later.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20317 »

@ Amit ji, a lot of what I write is to enable me to collect my thoughts for my benefit and for the benefit of those who share the wavelength with me. So no need to reply if you do not feel like. You are like a Bhagwaan ki murti in my write ups. Symbolic that is.


Re.
we've had home grown organised retail chains for about 10 or more yet why is there's still 30 per cent/$12 billion wastage of farm produce every year?
Amit ji I have already asked you to rethink your 30% wastage figure. Avoiding wastage of 30% = = 30% profits on sales = = 360% profit on capital employed assuming 12 inventory turnovers. Would you be willing to sell off your home and hearth to get into supply chain. Since lack of supply chain is what you say is causing this wastage. Also you must show the 1/3rd of trucking capacity that is needed to move this waste out of situ. Which you are yet to do after my last post addressed to you.

Amit ji the link you provided itself says that Supply chain is open to international players since long and yet they are not coming in. Instead they are asking for entry into Multi brand retail. And if think they are not going to come into supply chain till you hand over retail to them as well, well you just wait. You really believe somebody would want to invest in storage and trucking when he can get into real estate and retail and get a large bunch of rent seekers to invest in stocking and trucking. Again your link also says : “Foreign retailers who want entry into India, such as Wal-Mart, say foreign investment is key to minimising waste and lowering prices to consumers.” IOW they themselves are claiming that supply chain is directly linked with savings in farm produce. So why hanker for retail at all. Why don’t they just take up that end of supply chain which they claim will result in this saving. Besides what do think will happen to all this farm produce saved in years of normal monsoon.

Naah not so fast. You cannot take the excuse of ‘exports’ for the simple reason that ‘exports’ can be resorted to even now without any change in situation. Differential costs/benefits are the only relevant consideration. Export option does not constitute a differential cost/benefit.

Will these FDI driven companies stock more of the food grains for the benefit of poor Indians in years of poor monsoon?

And how much can be consumed by people at places where these FDI Retailers are going to establish shops? Accha let me catch the ear from the other side. The prices in Big Bazar and Sunday market are pretty much the same for Bhaji-Tarkari. How many rickshaw pullers do you see in Big Bazar? And you are advocating Walmart which is not as Indianised as Big Bazar is and is never going to get so.

Amit ji I can keep going on and on. Your case is so very weak on every count you have raised that it is almost a boring exercise demolishing it. This 30% figure is the only one I attacked because you are a fellow countrymen and an educated one at that. I would like to stand beside you as you demolish stupidity. I just could not bear to see you suspend your Vivek and instead peddle in utter bull.

BTW the link you post clearly links this 30% figure with not just CRISIL but also Walmart. Do you really think this figure is believable? And when was the last time you invested based on CRISIL ratings which is supposed to be their main business.


ADDED AFTER A RE-READ OF YOUR POST:

The present Mandi system is no doubt in need of some deep changes quite a lot of which require political will. But it is not defunct. I fail to understand how anyone can advocate a wager which is what FDI in retail helping out in management of rotting grains at FCI amounts to. That to, while swearing and cussing the system that has already served for so long. In fact the link you provide gives the exact same conclusions and makes no recommendation for FDI in retail and instead cautions us from following the western example. The FDI in Retail is a sleight for avoiding the right steps and creating fiefdoms.

The soft skills aspect you allude to is again entirely besides the point. How can FDI driven companies help a country gain soft skills when the country in question is a customer care executive to the whole world?

The China factor in the AC context was to establish the existence of level playing field in terms of procurement of inputs. I fail to understand the relevance of your follow on comment on it even after re-reading it 3 times.

Re. Amit ji -
There is a link posted on this page which says that farmers who take all the risk and cost in sowing and farming typically get 20 per cent of what you and I pay at the shops while the middleman who takes no risks or makes any investment gets around 45 per cent.
Amit ji I could not find the link where you say it is. So I am going to take your statement on face value.

Firstly if we take your statement at face value then I fail to understand why indeed the middleman is paid at all if as you say he “takes no risk and makes no investments”. :). Either the farmer is an idiot or the consumer is an idiot if they pay to finance this middleman. At least this middleman is some kind of Djinn who can cast a spell on millions of farmers and consumers. Or (I cannot resist it) why not you and I get into a partnership to exploit this opportunity acting as a middleman. Abhijit ji can also join us. Since I being a middleman will not have to make any investments and take no risks, we can put in a Board/General meeting resolution putting you and Abhijit ji incharge of collections and you can payout my share of the profits as soon as you can collect these.


Ok on a more serious note, and with a few additional inputs, what it implies is if we spend INR 100 then Middleman gets INR 45 but what you fail to tell us is that the middleman pays the price to the farmer at spot rates while the Government MSPs were historically never paid on time. This in a country where I think about 70% of the farmers are classified as Small and marginal and cannot realistically be expected to provide credit to the State. Also you do not tell us that the rate of interest to be paid by the middleman is 30% - 36% on that INR 20 that he pays to the farmers but since there are many farmers and less middlemen so this INR 20 is to be multiplied by the number of farmers that he services. And then he also has to manage the market-making of the whole stock that he actually takes delivery of from the farmer for the simple reason that he has paid spot prices. Amit ji, if you take any route out of Delhi. At various places you will actually see huge open space storages of grains etc covered with Tirpaal/Plastic. That’s your middleman. So this middleman has to manage stockage of this grain. All the while providing employment to village bums who would otherwise take to crime. Amit ji middleman is there for a reason. Had he been actually as useless as he is made out to be, then he would surely have been lynched by now.


Re. Amit ji -
As regards your point that Walmart types "outsource" supply chains to third parties, I can only say "Wow, kya baat, kya baat!"
Strange thing is Amit ji, you actually quoted me say “Well I will go out and say that it make imminent business sense to get somebody else to invest in storages and trucking facilities if one is serious about ones business” and then you went on to twist it the way you did. And I mentioned that much because you have since beginning tied up rotting food grains which to my mind needs trucking and storage with FDI Retailers.

But I am willing to be educated, you see I have not worked for any of the Retailers. I only worked on Balance Sheets, MIS, Commercial laws, Direct and Indirect Tax laws, Financing, Franchisee agreement negotiations, Pricing, Budgeting and now Corporate laws for Services, Trade, Construction, ITES, EoUs, MLMs with a sprinkling of fraud detection in Transaction Banking. Oh also some Manufacturing Balance Sheets. Unfortunately nothing above a 1000 Crores. So what reading material do you suggest when you ask me to “read up some materials about supply chain management in the retail sector”.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by amit »

^^^^^
So no need to reply if you do not feel like.
That's an excellent suggestion. From this post onwards I shall follow it.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by vina »

This Bandh business is so incredibly dumb! All the KIRANA SHOPS in my neighborhood, in whose name the Politicos are enforcing the Bandh are Friggin OPEN . I in fact, caught one of the guys from the shops doing a door delivery in the elvator and asked him this question.

You guys are against Walmart and called for the Bandh and are open today! He gave me a sheepish look!

All the malls are closed of course, all the offices have given today off (ITVIty boys are told to work this Saturday), so really, the ORGANIZED sector is FORCED by the politcos to do a "bandh" in the name of folks who couldn't care less.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Aditya_V »

Bandh in Chennai has 0 impact, too many politicos hasve too many business Interests atleast in TN if not rest of India, to ask employees stay at home and make them losses.

ONly SG, RG and leftiies don't care as thier business interests are in Italy and EU.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Dileep »

I buy my stuff from both local stores, local supermarkets and brand name supermarkets. Some observations.

1. Vegetables are well preserved at Reliance and Food Bazaar. At other chains, they get wilted pretty fast. It is worse at the corner store, because they tend to dump things together.

2. Veggies from Reliance have lower levels of pesticides. How do I know? I can taste them in the tomatoes and carrots that I eat raw.

3. Discount over MRP of packaged items: Branded supermarkets give the highest, while corner stores take MRP.

4. Bulk items are costlier at branded chain, but they are cleaner.

Here in my place, I haven't seen even ONE SHOP closing after the chains appeared.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Aditya_V »

Yes, FDI is not going to close Kirana SHops, FDI is also not going to make Farmers and SC/ ST Millionares as claimed by RG, Kancha Illaih and Divijay Singh.

It is a very good distraction from discussing the details of Coal Block allocations
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20317 »

amit wrote:^^^^^
So no need to reply if you do not feel like.
That's an excellent suggestion. From this post onwards I shall follow it.

I am sorry amit ji if I was abrasive. My kind of profession and lifestyle leaves me with such wrong vibes. I will try to make amends in this post. Also I request you to not treat my seemingly irreverent behavior as an indication of the true measure of respect I bear for a fellow BRF member. Needless to say I have annointed amit ji as a mander ki murat and will continue with no expectation of any fruit.

amit ji the ICRIER report you mentioned (thanks for that link) does not mention ‘Multibrand FDI retail’ as a recommendation. In fact in that study the organized retail sector is represented by Indian Entrepreneurs and the benefits flowing to the farmers is listed to their credit. Which I believes is sufficiently supportive of the POV that I am batting for. That Indians can do whatever the foreigners can in this business.

Admittedly it cannot hold this absence of MNCs in the study against them, I do admit they could not have been represented in the study w.r.t. the Multibrand Retail in 2008.

My only objection was w.r.t. handing over of credit to ‘Multibrand Retail FDI’ when they are not focused on (nor do they have the capability of) saving the rotting food grains and providing better realizations to farmers.

I do realize FDI is important even in Retail but for a host of different reasons a few of which are definitely listed out quite clearly in the ICRIER study you linked.

I also am in favour of disintermediation wherever it is possible but I do not look at intermediaries as desh drohis. I treat them as people made to live without the benefit of cheaper capital which is available or can be made available to both the Indian Entrepreneurs and the MNCs.

Also I am aware of a few Sabzi Barons that control the Mandi system. I do admit these guys should be removed from business. But these guys are hardly an Intermediate. These guys are netas, their money launderers, their black money managers and their lackeys. Intermediation is actual business. When the organized sector was absent it was these intermediaries that kept the clock ticking. It is not a black – white world with Bad Intermediates and Good MNCs.

For reference:
1. Organised retail itself relies on commission agents:
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ns/292100/

2. Ficci has recommended that APMC Mandis be allowed to remain with better monitoring and infrastructure in addition to the new channels being now allowed:
http://bsl.co.in/india/storypage.php?autono=322644

3. The farmers are interested in FDI retail only in the case of direct procurement is made mandatory:
Sample - “But big farmers are all for retail reforms. Bharat Krishak Samaj, a farm lobby with more than 75,000 members, said it supports FDI in retail on the condition that direct procurement from farmers is made mandatory.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... er-leaders


Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20317 »

This bandh is an accounting bandh not a transactional bandh.

Nobody is interested in seeing their business remain closed for a day. So transactions take place.

Politicos just want to see who amongst them is supporting whom and what is the best negotiating position for the horse trade that will come later.

As usual a few guys in UP/Bihar got overexcited and stopped train for some hours.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by vina »

The govt is finally getting into the reformist mode. But however, I would fault it for having wasted 8 years before taking these steps and doing so in near desperate circumstances when all else has failed.

I would blame it on inflicting 9% inflation , which has remianed stubbornly high , despite flippant comments from all the govt big wigs.. (this from Montek.. oh, the interest rates will go up and in 3 months it will come down. or some such thing, when it started going up) and their cockiness about it.

Maybe Sonia Gandhi never bought into it. Maybe the CPI-M and Mamata millstone never let them do it and maybe they never really fundamentally believed in it themselves or simply put, the leftist/populist/Command and Control faction of the Congress (read the NAC jokers) were driving the agenda and direction , and their creed was "spend baby spend, spend like there was no tomorrow" .

Now when it has reached a near breaking point, the saner section of the Congress has been finally called in to rescue the situation. If Congress goes into 2014 as a lame duck with high inflation and a collapsing economy, Sonia realizes that it is curtains for them. She had the sense to kick out the NAC jokers and call back in the saner guys and gave the thumbs up to the reform agenda.

Case in point is this. What do I hear from the NAC riff-raff and self appointed busy bodies for the past 10 days. A DEATHLY SILENCE :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

WhereTF is Aruna Roy and Harsh Mander and their fellow hanger ons and toadies ?
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Singha »

the NAC is still very much in existence. quiet now because no free money to throw for "social justice" and votes.
when the piggy bank has a few coins they will raid it again

http://nac.nic.in/member.htm
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by V_Raman »

if we dont want big disparity between rich/middle-class/poor, then what we do in India maybe the right thing.

open up a little (1991 reforms), redistribute wealth for some time (NREGA etc.), open up a little again (FDI, 123)...
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Austin »

Congress has two years for election , this year expect tough reforms which will bring in more money next year budget or 2104 will be spending time might contain all the sops to wooo voters , farmers etc.

Public memory is always short they would forget the pain when sops come in. Congress are master in such games and with opposition divided this is the best time to bring in reforms.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Does congress still have a majority? Technically it could be toppled any moment Nah!

I would have traded all this FDI golmal for a reform of the labor laws including a proper safety net. That has to be the key reform holding us back.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by nachiket »

Theo_Fidel wrote: I would have traded all this FDI golmal for a reform of the labor laws including a proper safety net. That has to be the key reform holding us back.
Mulayam is still supporting them. So (unfortunately) they are going to be fine. Labor reform would have toppled the government for sure though.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20292 »

theo fidel ji...agree totally onleee.
well said.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Kakkaji »

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's team behind the recent reforms blitzkrieg
Change Agent

P Chidambaram, Finance Minister
: His arrival in North Block started the process of UPA's resurgence. Within days of taking over, Chidambaram had readied a plan to boost the economy, including stake sale in state-owned companies, fiscal consolidation, and a non-adversarial tax regime to help revive investor sentiment. People close to the FM say he had given himself a month to implement most of these measures. He had also pushed for foreign investment in multi-brand retail as well as aviation to send out a clear signal the government was committed to reforms.

The Implementers

Pulok Chatterji, Shivshankar Menon, BVR Subrahmanyam, Shatrughan Singh
: The low-profile principal secretary to the prime minister, Pulok Chatterji, has been tasked to co-ordinate with ministries to ensure that all stakeholders are on the same page before a major policy is announced. Chatterji is helped by two key joint secretaries in the PMO — Shatrughan Singh and BVR Subrahmanyam, who communicate the PMO's agenda to senior officials in the government. Shivshankar Menon, the National Security Advisor, emerged as the sounding board for the PM on political and economic issues, even though these fall out of his official remit.

The Loyal Technocrat

Montek Singh Ahluwalia, Dy Chairperson, Planning Commission
: He is the PM's blue-eyed boy. Ahluwalia has been providing important inputs for the various reform measures announced and those in the works. The Planning Commission had pushed for reforming the subsidy regime, the power sector and stepping up investments in infrastructure. Ahluwalia shares a better relationship with PC than he did with the previous FM. He also conveys messages, such as the need to cut subsidies, that politicians find difficult to articulate.

The Man in the Shadows

Ahmed Patel: The powerful secretary to Sonia Gandhi
, Patel, said to be a master of the dark arts of politics, has given the political spine to the image makeover. Measures such as FDI in multi-brand retail and capping fuel subsidies would not have been possible without the backing of the Congress party. The government's aggressive handling of the socalled Coalgate has also been coordinated by Patel, who ensured that the role of state governments in approving mine allocations was highlighted, thus denting BJP's anti- corruption campaign. Congress party leaders say Patel has been instrumental in ensuring Mulayam Singh's support after Mamata Banerjee walked out.

Legal Eagle and Public Face

Salman Khurshid, Law Minister
: Along with Chidambaram, he has emerged as an articulate defender of economic reforms on broadcast networks. The law ministry's input has also been sought for crucial reforms such as the financial restructuring of power discoms to make sure the government's announcements pass legal muster. Khurshid, with the help of his seniormost law officer Ghoolam Vahanvati, has ensured the government's legal team puts up a better show in the Supreme Court in crucial cases in contrat to what is perceived to be feeble performance during the marathon hearing of the 2G case.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by svinayak »

Walmart Pounces As India Opens Market To Foreign Retailers
Forbes -

Walmart heads to India just weeks after the government there said it would allow foreign ownership of retail companies. (Photo credit: Wikipedia) Walmart will be the first major US retailer to set up shop in India after the government there allowed ...
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by A Nandy »

I agree with ravi_g. We do not need FDI to modernize our food supply chain. Cold storage is not something fantastic that Indian companies cannot build. Nor is just-in-time inventory, RFID product tracking/monitoring etc. These have been in use in the world for the last 10 years or more and we can develop without assistance from anyone. There is enough IT skills and experience in the country for this.

Also the entire development policy that the government is following is wrong. We should be encouraging our own home grown retail chains into a position where they are able to export to and setup shop in other countries. Instead of licensing technologies and building upon it in this country, we are allowing free reign to do business for the international retailers. Why would they have the interests of Indian farmers in mind or the well being of this country ? They are here to do business. For example if tomorrow one of them decides that the North is too dry to grow rice and the farmers should only grow jowar and bajra, then what do you think the common village man will eat ? He cant go to a supermarket to buy basmati rice.

Moreover the current mandi system has its faults. But this problem has to be addressed right there. Instead we are taking the easy way out and relying on foreigners to fix the problem. Why would they fix it for us ? They are here to fleece and profit. Not only the entire bunch of middlemen but even farmers will be forced out of business.

There are random examples where top retailers and kirana shops survive together. But one cannot extrapolate from this to say that nothing will change now that FDI is in place. Walmart has for example faced this accusation of running local shops out of business in many places in the world. So of course they are not going to make drastic changes immediately. They will wait and study the emerging food patterns and only after many years will we realize the damage done by which time it will be too late.

Again, we are not tackling the problem at its root.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by svinayak »

We cannot have all these reforms without first removing socialism from the constitution.
This socialism and the socialism economy has to be removed and the home based company should be give home base advantage. India is not even open for its own Indian companies
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by rohitvats »

Well, home grown companies had their time under the sun to get their act together. Entry of foreign retailers was inevitable and they should have prepared for it. I'm sure many already have.

But seriously, all this talk of mom and pop shop-keepers going out of business and other such sob stories are quite ridiculous. Please educate me, why did not these businesses go bust when Big Bazaar opened up in India? BB is a bigger threat than a Walmart because it has formats which allows it to park right in the middle of a kirana stores. How come no one is complaining about the likes of them?

And please, one sincere advise - don't extrapolate the models in foreign countries into India. There is a big elephant in the room which everyone seems to be missing - Indian Consumer. He is more smart than you give credit to him...they will go some place only if it makes absolute sense - and not because it is Walmart or any other entity.

Another question to all the learned people on this thread - Now, I have never been to a Walmart but have shopped at Metro Cash & Carry. In the entire set-up, in which areas does the items sold by Walmart overlap with those of Kirana stores which everyone wants to save? What is it that I will choose to buy from Walmart which my Kirana store already sells and hence, it will be curtains for him?

I would love to be educated on these points.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by nakul »

I agree on your points. But there is one thing that eludes me. The retailers that you mentioned AFAIK provide a better ambience at the same price. The benefit of visiting them is seldom low prices. Mostly it is the AC, clean shelves & other convenience factors. Not price.

WalMart is known for lowering prices. Indians being price sensitive, get attracted to shops selling things at a lower rate. Will WalMart underprice the kirana (unlike Indian chains)?
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

The issue is not FDI in retail. The issue is a lack of manufacturing jobs. Unless 250 million additional jobs are not created in the domestic industry over the next 15 to 20 years. We are looking at a demographic disaster.

I dont see the GOI, taking any concrete steps in creating the required jobs.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by nakul »

This is how the British kept India poor. Destroy the small scale industry and import British textiles in India.

GoI should invest in road, electricity, & infrastructure. These reforms will greatly benefit India. WalMart (retail FDI) & aerospace (aviation FDI) hardly makes a difference. People can always shop from kirana & travel in Indian owned airlines. But there is no substitute from road, water, electricuty problems. Gujarat has got its basic infra in good shape and is using that to entice foreign firms into investing there. Instead of learning from them, MMS is opening FDI in frivolus sectors like multi brand retail & aviation which will hardly help the common man.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by A Nandy »

But seriously, all this talk of mom and pop shop-keepers going out of business and other such sob stories are quite ridiculous. Please educate me, why did not these businesses go bust when Big Bazaar opened up in India?
The proverbial Walmart/Tesco/Target/YouNameIt sources its products from allover the world. They can easily announce a 50% discount on an essential item and hold fort for an entire year. Big Bazaar cannot do that because it does not have as many sources. It has to source from Indian farmers and there is a limited hit it can take.

Why wont the retailers do so ? It affects their profit. After the initial surge of people who can afford to goto supermarkets, within the next few years they will start seeing the local stores as a threat and will focus on eliminating them for further profits. Did you think they will be driven by altruistic morals ?

They will outlive the local kirana stores for the simple reason that they can afford to take a hit for extended periods which the likes of BB/Reliance cannot match.

As an example, in the 1950s after World War 2, Japan licensed industrial technologies from various European firms with an eye on improving it. Within a few years they had improved it to such an extent they were exporting the same or better quality good to Europe. They never allowed foreigners to setup shop in their country and screw their countrymen.
This socialism and the socialism economy
I agree reform is important. But it must take the right form. Let us not forget that it was during this socialistic economy that some of independent India's greatest innovations were done. All the major research and defence institutions did their work under pre-liberalization India. The PSLV, the missiles under the integrated missile development program, even the atomic bomb were all created under the shadow of socialistic India. As an example a company like HMT had brought in computerized machine tooling in the 1970s when it was still a novel idea in the West. A few years after liberalization they were forced out of business due to cheaper tools from external vendors. Had we liberalized in phases many such companies would have been forced to up their game and yet preserve their business.

Its all very easy to say we need reforms and the home grown companies have had their days in the Sun. So now what ? Lets allow them to wither away by overwhelming competition. Who is running these companies ? You and me only. We are the ones who will lose and end up working for the likes of YouNameIt. What sort of growth is that ?
Last edited by A Nandy on 22 Sep 2012 17:04, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by nakul »

WalMart can adopt MacDonalds model in India. In the US, both of them are known for low priced goods. In India, McD has a richer clientele. WalM could target the upper class as well. This could be easier to implement than matching the kirana wala.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by rohitvats »

A Nandy wrote: The proverbial Walmart/Tesco/Target/YouNameIt sources its products from allover the world. They can easily announce a 50% discount on an essential item and hold fort for an entire year. Big Bazaar cannot do that because it does not have as many sources. It has to source from Indian farmers and there is a limited hit it can take.
I think you can do better than give me such rhetorical and cliched answers.

If Walmart or anyone else started giving 50% discount on products - what stops a group of kirana stores from buying up stuff from these stores and selling them at a slight mark-up to local customers? These kirana stores will save you, the consumer, the petrol price and time wasted in going to a Walmart store. So, what gives? You think anyone can survive with this 50% off strategy? Remember, these are bulk players with low margins.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by A Nandy »

Agreed, they can always do that and survive. In fact they can do pretty well with Walmart giving away stuff at wholesale prices.

The local kirana stores may not go out of business as they serve local and limited neighborhoods where its difficult for Walmart to reach. Its the bigger Indian chains who will feel the pinch as customers switch loyalties. One of them going out of business affects a lot more people.

Furthermore its not like others haven't thought of this before. The 50% off may not happen, but they can certainly afford to sell cheaper than the kirana stores.

Anyway my point is not about the strategy the kirana stores will adopt to survive. We can modernize our food supply chain without FDI through our own efforts. First lets fix that problem. The only reason why it hasn't happened so far is because our policies haven't focused on that yet at all.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Singha »

I dont see it as a either/or issue but AND - investments in labour law reforms, farming, infra are needed anyway regardless of FDI in retail or no-FDI. I dont see FDI in retail adversely affecting the ability of the Govt to execute on these other fronts if they want to . after all the richer the country through these base level investments, more attractive it is for walmart types to expand in, so by all means they should have a vested interest in making the Govt invest right down to the farm level.

some of the indian chains have got hold of prime locations and might seek easy partnerships to expand now.
some will go under, even now some are struggling.
some will sell out.
even now some like total and SPAR are not indian they are foreign owned I think, or franchises here.

the ebb and tide continues.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Indian retailers do not have access to 0% cash. They are all loaded with debt and are waiting to sell out to Wal-mart type folks. People will be surprised how quickly this take over will go.

We can only look at the evidence on the ground.

Walmart was defeated in SK & Germany.
Walmart crushed Mexico and is slowly becoming dominant in Brazil.

Are we Mexico or Germany is the question.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by kmkraoind »

Image

From Firstpost.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Singha »

People whose business didnt do well will go under anyway even without fdi. Cases being mtr selling out, foodworld in blr mostly selling out to spencer and subhiksha who tried a kirana model. Birla groups smart / more and reliance fresh dont seem to be too hot either. In blr i would say only total and spar are thriving in big box format.

Is it any worse than ranbaxy selling off to japanese?
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20317 »

rohitvats wrote:
A Nandy wrote: The proverbial Walmart/Tesco/Target/YouNameIt sources its products from allover the world. They can easily announce a 50% discount on an essential item and hold fort for an entire year. Big Bazaar cannot do that because it does not have as many sources. It has to source from Indian farmers and there is a limited hit it can take.
I think you can do better than give me such rhetorical and cliched answers.

If Walmart or anyone else started giving 50% discount on products - what stops a group of kirana stores from buying up stuff from these stores and selling them at a slight mark-up to local customers? These kirana stores will save you, the consumer, the petrol price and time wasted in going to a Walmart store. So, what gives? You think anyone can survive with this 50% off strategy? Remember, these are bulk players with low margins.


rohitvats ji,

Bharti walmart ('BW') already has a program for taking over the wholesale business named 'Mera Kirana' with the lofty mission described thus - "Mera Kirana” is an innovative program which has been developed to help the kirana stores grow their business and compete better against modern retail. :rotfl:

http://www.bharti-walmart.in/BenefitsTo ... wners.aspx

What do you think will happen to these Kirana stores once they get into the BW pocket?

Elsewhere you asked about the merchandise overlap between BW types and Kiranas/local merchants.

Well here it is. And to me it looks like everything overlaps.

http://www.bharti-walmart.in/ProductRange.aspx
Best Price Modern Wholesale Store offers over 5,000 items under one roof across multiple categories like

Snacks and Hot Beverages
Beverages
Packaged Foods
Confectionery
Commodities
Dry Fruits
Spices
Household items
Restaurant Supplies
Linen
Hair and Personal Care
Detergents and Cleaning Aids
Luggage
Apparel and Footwear
Office Supplies and Stationery
Electronics and House Hold appliances
The range of fresh foods at Best Price makes it the best place to buy vegetables, fruits, milk and milk products, chicken, mutton and fish.

The sourcing for produce and fresh is done through local & regional sourcing teams. Special pack sizes have been developed across categories for customers from HoReCa segment (Hotel, Restaurant, Caterer) and Offices & Institutions.



Anyhow I was also the one expressing doubts over FDI in multibrand retail. My view was not the 'FDI will necessarily kill Kirana' view. Kiranas will feel the heat for sure. However I have reasons to believe they will adapt faster then a Coconut Indian ever can. My doubts were the following (well #2 is new for me):


1) On how our home grown brands will fare because of this wrong sort of policies.

rohitvats ji, BB has done more then their fair share of effort in bringing up the Indian economy. Now and at everypoint uptil now Indian governance structure has given the likes of BB zero support in terms of deregulation. You have been in an Indian entity of a global property consulting business. You know quite well the extent of bakwas bazi in Real estate balance sheets. You already know the essentially white nature of business that an Indian Organised Retail business does. What are your views regarding the risk profile and the corporate governance for both these business? Is there any reason to put the same sort of Takeover code on new age Indian businesses like IT, ITES earlier and now Indian Multibrand Retail as is put over Indian construction. Is public money at the same kind of risk in both the businesses? How do you suppose the Indian Retailer like BB compete against the BW kinds when the sources of finance are completely inequitable?


2) The reality is when a Small farmer or Marginal farmer burns his fingers with one or more of the following reasons: debt, stocking of his produce, forward trading, bad weather. He either commits suicide or sells of his onerous assets and migrates to the cities to start work as a small time trader/Kirana or even a small time attendent at the bigger Lalas. Now instead of recognising this as a cooperative excercise. People who support Retail FDI are creating an entirely new propaganda, that Shopkeepers and middlemen are the ones which are killing the farmers. Its so entirely unbelievable, that educated Indians will buy into such nonsense.


Also rohitvats ji, just to preempt any reverse swing, if India Kiranas and Indian Orgainsed Retail survive BW types then that would be because of their own abilities not because Indian Government did its job of ensuring a level playing field.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20317 »

deleted -posted more then once.
Last edited by member_20317 on 23 Sep 2012 00:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20317 »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Indian retailers do not have access to 0% cash. They are all loaded with debt and are waiting to sell out to Wal-mart type folks. People will be surprised how quickly this take over will go.

We can only look at the evidence on the ground.

Walmart was defeated in SK & Germany.
Walmart crushed Mexico and is slowly becoming dominant in Brazil.

Are we Mexico or Germany is the question.

Exactly. In fact Indian cost of capital is already through the roof. This is one major reason for Indian businessmen cutting corners.

That is one of the reasons also because of which Indian businessmen will sell out. Though even here there is a lot of string pulling. Remember what was Vijay Mallya doing last year. And now FDI in aviation. :).

This whole charade so predictable.
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