TERRY GROSS, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Just as there seemed to be some diplomatic progress in the Middle East, with the deal over Iran's nuclear program about to be implemented and talks for a political resolution to the civil war in Syria planned to start this month, those efforts are being jeopardized by a new conflict. That conflict has erupted between two rival nations in the region - Iran and Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia executed a Shiite cleric on January 2. In response, an Iranian mob attacked the Saudi Embassy in Tehran. Then the Saudis severed diplomatic ties with Iran. My guest is journalist Robin Wright, who has been covering the region since 1973 and has reported on every war in the region since then. She's now a contributing writer for The New Yorker and is a joint fellow at the U.S. Institute of Peace and the Woodrow Wilson International Center. Her books include "Rock The Casbah: Rage And Rebellion Across The Islamic World" and "Dreams And Shadows: The Future Of The Middle East." Robin Wright, welcome to FRESH AIR. Before we talk about the repercussions of this new rift between Iran and Saudi Arabia, let's talk about what caused it. The Saudis beheaded a Shiite cleric named Sheikh Nimr al-Nimr. Who was he and why did the Saudis say they beheaded him?
ROBIN WRIGHT: Sheikh Nimr was a prominent critic of the monarchy. He was a leading cleric of the Shiite sect inside Saudi Arabia. The Shiites make between 10 and 15 percent of Saudi Arabia's population, but they also live in the most important part of Saudi Arabia, which are the eastern oil fields. They live and work in the Eastern Provinces and have long felt that they don't reap the benefits or rewards of the resources on their own territory, whether it's the financial benefits, the social infrastructure, you know, health benefits, or whether it's a role in the political structure. And so for more than three decades, there have been bubbling movements that have risen and fallen over time to try to challenge the government over Shiite rights. The Saudi monarchy is Sunni. Saudi Arabia is the guardian of Islam's holy places. There is a long-standing tension between Sunni and Shiites over the interpretation of Islam - who should be the leaders, what is the proper doctrine, the proper interpretation of Islam. So the friction inside the kingdom comes in context of this long-standing division. Sheikh Nimr was a critic, but he had not been involved physically in violence. He had sympathized with the people, he had been - used pretty tough language when it came to criticizing the monarchy. He called it authoritarian and reactionary and said that - told American diplomats who interviewed him in 2008 that he would always side with the people against the government if it ever came to some kind of confrontation. He became controversial in 2012, in the aftermath of a new round of protests in the kingdom that were spawned in large part by the Arab Spring, as the protests began to spread across the entire Arab world. And he was arrested at that time. He was charged with a number of offenses, including the absence of loyalty to the ruler, fomenting dissent and inciting public violence. So this is - that's the core of the offenses that led to his execution on January 2.
GROSS: So he was beheaded. Is beheading a typical punishment in Saudi Arabia? Is that their form of capital punishment?
WRIGHT: The 47 men who were executed on January 2 were all either beheaded or put in front of firing squads. Beheading is a common practice in the kingdom. And, in fact, some of the various punishments - whether it's beheading or chopping off an arm or a leg for various other crimes, including robbery - are often done in public squares in the kingdom to drive home the point that these are costly offenses.
GROSS: So in response to the beheading of the sheikh, an Iranian mob burned down the Saudi Embassy in Iran. And again, the sheikh was Shiite; Iran is a Shiite country. The sheikh had studied in Iran. So after the Iranian mob burned down the Saudi Embassy in Iran, the Saudis broke off diplomatic relations with Iran. So what events - like, what ongoing diplomatic events and talks does this falling-out between Iran and Saudi Arabia - not that their relationship was good before this, but it's worse now - so what does this put in jeopardy in the region?
WRIGHT: Well, the timing of this confrontation is really dangerous because January was to be the month of developments, important developments, on four different peace initiatives that were really part of the international effort to prevent the Middle East from disintegrating completely. The first is the anticipated peace talks between the Syrian government and the Syrian opposition on January 25. This is the political complement to the military campaign against the Islamic State. This is the package of initiatives designed to hold Syria together to end what is the greatest humanitarian crisis and the bloodiest conflict in the world right now. The second one is the peace talks on the Yemen. Again, an enormous humanitarian crisis - 80 percent of the people in Yemen no longer have access to fresh water and are dependent on humanitarian aid to eat. And so the peace talks - a second round of peace talks - were supposed to happen this month. A cease-fire went into place last month. But on the same day that the Shiite cleric was executed, the Saudi-led coalition announced it was no longer going to comply with the cease-fire. And that, of course, jeopardizes the peace effort and any attempt to engage in another cease-fire. The third is the very important progress made last month by the Iraqi government in pushing back ISIS from the strategic town of Ramadi, and making some political gains as well. And this is a moment where the entire region, and particularly Saudi Arabia and Iran, have interest - and in some cases, rival interests. And the fourth very important - especially for the United States - is the Iran nuclear deal, which was expected to be formally implemented this month, which means Iran will have complied with dismantling some of its program, shipping out its low-enriched uranium, limiting the number of centrifuges used to enrich uranium, and then the lifting of sanctions. This was a moment that Iran was going to kind of begin to end its pariah status. And all these things suddenly are on the table because of the deepening rift between the two Islamic powers in the Middle East.
GROSS: Well, why does that rift jeopardize, for instance, the Iranian nuclear deal?
WRIGHT: Well, the Saudis have long been opposed to a nuclear deal with Iran, not just because of the nuclear deal or the terms of the deal. This - all this goes back to the long-standing rivalry between these two Gulf powers. And on a lot of different levels they are - it's the Shiite-Sunni rift that dates back 14 centuries but has taken on a kind of new face over the last few decades but particularly in the last couple of years. It's the long-standing rivalry between Persians in Iran and Arabs in Gulf countries. It plays out, you know, in terms of their relationship with the outside world. Remember, Iran was one of the two pillars of U.S. foreign policy along with Israel until the 1979 revolution. And after the 1979 revolution and the breaking of diplomatic relations with Washington, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, to a certain extent, began to fill the vacuum. They became the real allies of Washington. And of course, with the nuclear deal and Iran's reentry into the international community, the Saudis have long feared that Iran would make a comeback and begin to rob it of its place in the region - a problem compounded by the fact that oil prices are down, the U.S. dependence on foreign oil or imported oil is diminishing, that Saudi Arabia is very nervous about its place in the region. You know, both countries have also been rivals in terms of what they want to see happen in the region. And so they're - it's not just the tensions between the two of them but the tensions between their surrogates, their allies in the region, that play out in many of these conflicts.
GROSS: So who are the major surrogates?
WRIGHT: Well, in Syria, for example, you have Iran backing the regime of President Bashar al-Assad and, of course, its Hezbollah allies in Lebanon who are now fighting in Syria. The Saudis have been supporting the opposition groups that are opposed to Bashar al-Assad. Now, it's not quite as clean as that because the Saudis have - and private Saudis have allegedly been providing funds to some of the Islamist groups, some of which defected to the Islamic State. It gets very messy when anything's involved in the Syrian War right now. But that's one country where their rivalries really play out. And, of course, one of the great achievements by the United States was getting a 17-nation coalition together to talk about peace in the fall that included, for the first time, both foreign ministers from Iran and from Saudi Arabia. And now, of course, they've broken off relations.
GROSS: Some experts are speculating that the Saudi's actually wanted other countries to unite against Iran and that they intentionally beheaded the Shiite cleric to provoke Iran and to get people to get other countries to unite against Iran. Is that a credible theory?
WRIGHT: It is - there's no question that Saudi Arabia wants to mobilize as many of its Arab allies and even some of its, you know, Western allies against Iran. It wants to check Iran's power in the region. Saudi Arabia is very jealous of Iran. It's a country that has a larger population, a larger military - even though Saudi Arabia has far better equipment - a much larger consumer market. And so it wants to check Iran's reentry into the international community. I don't know about the timing of Sheikh Nimr's execution, but it certainly did not work in favor of peace efforts in the region.
GROSS: If you're just joining us, guest is Robin Wright. She writes for The New Yorker, where she covers international affairs. She's written about the Middle East for 43 years. Let's take a short break. Then we'll talk some more. This is FRESH AIR.
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GROSS: This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Robin Wright. She's been covering the Middle East for about 43 years. She now writes about international affairs for The New Yorker. And we're talking about the broadening rift between Saudi Arabia and Iran ever since Saudi Arabia executed - beheaded - a Shiite cleric, which led to an Iranian mob to burn down the Saudi Embassy in Iran. And then the Saudis in response broke off relations with Iran.
So there's a lot of changes going on in the Saudi kingdom now. King Abdullah died about a year ago after two decades in power. He was succeeded by King Salman, who turns 80 this year and has been reported to have some form of dementia and memory loss. So the new king changed the internal line of power. What are biggest most important changes that the new king has made in Saudi Arabia that's likely to have the largest ripple effects on the region and on the U.S.?
WRIGHT: There's a whole new cast of political players inside Saudi Arabia. And the king did something quite startling in terms of the slow-moving Saudi politics. He fired the crown prince. He named a nephew as the crown prince and his own 30-year-old son as both deputy crown prince and minister of defense - a person who had very limited government experience, was a largely unknown commodity inside the kingdom and invested a huge amount of power particularly in his son. And many of the traditional players in the kingdom were pushed aside. What the king did really was carve out what amounts to a new royal family. The Saudis would deny that, but that's the truth.
The founder of Saudi Arabia had 43 sons and even more daughters. And among those 43 sons there were seven sons of one mother, and they're called the Sudairi Seven. The mother was a sudairi. And those seven now are the most powerful players, and one of them is king. And he is kind of carving out a new line of power through the sudairis and through his own family. And there are questions about his frailty on a lot of different levels. And there are questions about how much he's making a lot of the daily decisions. His son has been the one, as the new defense minister, who began engaging in the military campaign in Yemen, a very dangerous and costly proposition, particularly at a time there are real questions about the deficit in Saudi Arabia, that one - about one-third of the young in Saudi Arabia are unemployed. There are - two-thirds of the people who were on the labor force in Saudi Arabia work for the government - that this is a bloated bureaucracy and that the system itself has questions about, as structured now, how long it can endure.
Tribalism has never been stronger than it is today in modern Saudi Arabia. And of course that pulls at the fibers, the fabric, of the state. It was the current king's father who pulled together the tribes of Saudi Arabia in the 1920s and created the third version of Saudi Arabia. And there are a lot of questions about the cohesion of the state right now.
GROSS: So if the new king has created this new line of power, what is the politics of this new line of power?
WRIGHT: Well, look, the Saudi royal family has always been impenetrable when it comes to kind of understanding what the thinking is and what's likely to happen next. But it is clear that the king has bypassed dozens - even hundreds - of other princes who expected to be not only part of the power structure but possibly king and at least included in the perks and privileges of the royal family. There are today somewhere - some people say it's close to - well over 2,000 and some reports claim up to 6,000 princes. And many of them feel that they have been either marginalized or that their - the future generations of their lines of the royal family will not be included in the privileges of the royal family.
So you have, you know, an internal dynamic that's playing out in some very interesting ways inside the kingdom at this very vulnerable moment. The kingdom, you know, with the declining price of oil - less than half of what it was a year ago - with the internal disgruntlement over the line of power, with this very bold military campaign in Yemen, with the dangers of ISIS and al-Qaida growing - remember, these have strong Sunni ties, these are both Sunni movements that are a direct threat to the Sunni rule in Saudi Arabia - and now this new showdown with Iran - there's a lot of points of friction inside the kingdom.
GROSS: Would you describe the people in this new line of power as being any more or less moderate than their predecessors?
WRIGHT: Moderation is not a word I would ever use to describe Saudi Arabia.
GROSS: (Laughter) Fair enough.
WRIGHT: But I do think that the former king had a reputation - in a Saudi context - as trying to engage in reform - moderate, very small, small steps. He established a new university that is coed. And both boys and girls can go to this, you know, to the same university, which is unprecedented in the kingdom. But women still can't drive. Women are still considered minors all of their lives. To go out of the country, to go to school, to get jobs, they still have to have the written permission of the main man in their life - their father, their husband, even a divorced husband, or son. And so this is a country - and a country that still beheads people. So moderation is not something I'd use. I think that the Saudi regime at the moment is taking pretty hard lines on a lot of things.
GROSS: So the current king of Saudi Arabia is in frail health. He's 80. What's likely to happen when he dies - any idea?
WRIGHT: That's a big question. And of course there are - the kingdom is full of gossip and speculation. The conspiracy theories are everywhere in the Middle East, but they're particularly strong in Saudi Arabia. And there are those who will argue, look, the son of the king, who's only the deputy crown prince, really has ambitions to succeed his father, and he may not let his uncle take that role. And there are those who think - who will say, well, the uncle, who is the interior minister, a well-known figure in government, who was the one that pushed out al-Qaida - and he's actually kind of the very close ally of the United States - that he won't allow the very young defense minister, the son of the current king, to continue in his role and become his successor. So there's a lot of speculation about what happens next in the kingdom. This is a big moment of transition.
GROSS: My guess is Robin Wright, a contributing writer for The New Yorker. We'll talk about political changes in Iran, and the elections scheduled for February, after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
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GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Robin Wright. We're talking about the rival powers Saudi Arabia and Iran and the new conflict that was set off this month when Saudi Arabia executed a Shiite cleric, and, in response, an Iranian mob attacked the Saudi Embassy in Tehran. Then the Saudis severed diplomatic relations with Iran. This conflict threatens diplomatic initiatives to end the civil war in Syria and to stop the nuclear weapons program in Iran. To understand what's going on, it's helpful to understand the political changes within Iran and Saudi Arabia, which Robin Wright is explaining for us. Wright has covered the Middle East since 1973 and is a contributing writer at The New Yorker magazine.
So we've talked a little bit about how Saudi Arabia is changing, how there's a new king who might be on the way out 'cause he's in ill health, how there's a new line of succession. Iran is undergoing a lot of political changes. There are elections coming up in February. Why are those elections going to be important?
WRIGHT: These elections are among the most important since the revolution because they will determine the future of the revolution at a very interesting juncture. For a decade, hardliners in Iran have controlled the basic levers of power. That began to change in 2013 with the election of a centrist president, Hassan Rouhani.
Iran's election in February is for two things - first, for parliament, a second branch of government, as well as the Assembly of Experts. This is a group of people very much like the College of Cardinals. There are 86 members. They are religious clerics and scholars, and they are the ones who will pick the next supreme leader.
The supreme leader in Iran is 76. He had prostate surgery 18 months ago. He's comparatively sturdy, but the actuarial charts would indicate that this Assembly of Experts, which sits for eight years, may well pick the next supreme leader. And it will probably pick the next supreme leader from among its ranks. So these two elections are really important.
If the centrists, reformers, moderates in Iran win parliament - or win more seats in parliament - playing off the gains of the nuclear deal, then you would see two of the three branches of government in the hands of centrists, moderates, reformers. That would be a huge power shift. The third branch of government, being the judiciary, would be the one held in the hands of conservatives and hardliners, and that's not likely to change anytime soon.
GROSS: So the demographics of Iran are going to affect, like, who is elected, and the demographics are really changing in Iran. The generation of the 1979 Iranian revolution is getting old. They're on their way out, and a new generation is moving in. And you've written about how when the revolutionaries took over, the government called on women to breed an Islamic generation. And the population grew by about 55 percent in a decade, but then you say the country couldn't feed, clothe, house, educate or find jobs for that many people. So the government reversed course and initiated a drastic family planning program. So you have what sounds like very uneven generational demographics now in Iran, which will certainly affect the voting. Can you talk about that a little bit?
WRIGHT: The baby boomers will determine the future of Iran. Today, the majority of the voter population is in that - from that decade when Iran promoted population growth - from the 1980s. And the young today don't talk about the ideal Islamic government. They're much more involved in new startups.
I've been in Iran three times in the last 18 months, and I went to see the young twins who started up the equivalent of Amazon in Iran. Today, it's worth a $150 million, and they sell everything from Steinway pianos and perfume to refrigerators and dishwashers, computers that - you know, this is a huge operation. I went to see the 26-year-old woman who had started the Iranian equivalent of Groupon.
And the young really have a different agenda. And that's why the revolutionaries, now in their 60s, 70s, even 80s, realize that something different is happening and that the numbers are against them. Now, the interesting thing is when they, after that baby boom spurt that's now between 25 and 35 years old - they then turned around and put in place a birth control program that brought the population down from more than six children per family to under two children per family. And as a result, you don't see the numbers any time soon that are going to challenge this young generation. They will be the determinators for the next 40 or 50 years of Iranian politics because they have the numbers. And so there is an awareness.
And one of the reasons the Iranians actually went to the negotiating table was not just because of international sanctions. It was because of their realization for the revolution to survive, they had to provide for the population the things that they wanted. And being a pariah nation, isolated from the world, cut off from trade, with a very savvy young population - you know, literacy is very high in Iran. Sixty-four percent of the university student body is female. You have a totally different dynamic than you did at the time of the revolution. The revolution began to understand they had to deliver to this young generation to survive.
GROSS: Well, you've written that Khomeini's grandchildren are all reformers. What does that mean?
WRIGHT: It's very interesting. The founder of the revolution has 15 grandchildren among his different children, and they are all reformers. And one of the interesting dynamics is that even his children are in trouble because they have spoken out. The most active grandchild is a woman who tried to run for parliament in 2004. She's a leading women's rights activist. She was disqualified for running as having credentials not Islamic enough, even though she was married to the deputy speaker of parliament at the time, whose brother was president of Iran at the time. And both she and her husband were disqualified. He is an incumbent from running.
Khomeini's grandson Hassan Khomeini (ph) is now running for the Assembly of Experts. And there's a lot of controversy about whether the system, which vets all candidates for their Islamic credentials, will actually allow the grandson of the founder of the revolution to run for the Assembly of Experts, who would pick his grandfather's successor.
GROSS: So if the baby boom dominates the election and votes more moderately, will Iran have a kind of divided government?
WRIGHT: Well, if you have the presidency and parliament agreeing on a national agenda, that makes things a lot easier for President Rouhani to engage in some of the reforms that he's long promised - opening up of the press, individual rights, women's rights. There are a lot of things that people have been waiting for since he was elected in 2013 as he worked on this nuclear deal. If you get the nuclear deal implemented, Iran's pariah status begins to be lifted, and you get a moderate parliament, things could begin to change.
The real issue in Iran, since the revolution, has always been the question - is the Islamic Republic of Iran - its full name - first and foremost, Islamic or, first and foremost, a Republic with the ideals of a republic state. Remember, Iran's constitution is based on French and Belgian law with an Islamic component - very strong Islamic component - added to that. And so the debate is always rage not just over international relations, but also in terms of the internal dynamics. What are its priorities? And so this important debate will be the subtext of the election. It's not just over the individuals or moderate versus conservative. It's really - what are our priorities?
And there are those hardliners who are probably 20 percent or so of the population who are clinging to that rigid implementation of Islam at the time of the revolution. And they are disproportionately powerful because they have their hands on some of the important instruments of power, some of the important newspapers in Iran. They've, in the past, had the blessing of the supreme leader. They want to cling to those ideals, versus those who say, hey, it's time to move on. It's time to normalize our revolution and be a republic that honors the goals, the democratic values originally promised at the time of the revolution.
GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Robin Wright. She writes for The New Yorker, where she covers international affairs. She's written about the Middle East for 43 years. Let's take a short break, then we'll talk some more. This is FRESH AIR.
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GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Robin Wright. She's a contributing writer for The New Yorker and frequently writes about international affairs. She's been covering the Middle East for many years. So, you can't rewrite the past, and it's really impossible to know if you were able to rewrite the past how it would have changed things. So I'm going to ask you this very speculative question in spite of that. Do you ever find yourself wondering what the Middle East - what the world would look like - if the U.S. had not invaded Iraq?
WRIGHT: Oh, I guess I've I wondered about that for a long time. I always thought it was a mistake, and I thought the repercussions would be enduring long after and would be far more significant, for example, than our very costly war in Vietnam. There's no question that it was the greatest mistake in U.S. foreign policy, arguably since we were founded as a nation. I think we're well-intentioned in trying to topple a dictator. Whether that was our role is, of course, debatable. The problem is - and this is true in Afghanistan today as well - we really don't know how to create peace, how to create nations. We were successful with the Europeans after World War II because we provided aid, and they had the skills, the development capabilities, to rebuild their societies - the political will, the unity of purpose. That's not something you find in these far more fragile states in the Middle East that are all - most of them are only a century old. They were carved up from the remains of the Ottoman Empire after World War I. And there are - one of the fundamental questions we all have to ask ourselves is should we, as a nation, use our military might, our economic resources and the human treasure of our military forces to try to preserve these artificial boundaries? I'm not arguing one way or the other, but it's a question we all should ask because the map of the Middle East is rapidly disintegrating. And it's not clear that some of the countries, anywany, are going to be viable long-term. So the repercussions of Iraq and the way it is played out - we never would've had al-Qaida in Iraq if it hadn't been for our invasion. We never would have had the creation of ISIS, a branch of al-Qaida that broke away and formed its own, even more lethal group, if it hadn't been for the invasion of Iraq. So I wonder all the time, and I weep all the time over what this will cost us as a nation. And I wonder sometimes if it will be that moment in history where historians say we began to lose our greatness.
GROSS: We as a nation - the U.S.?
WRIGHT: That we as a nation began to lose our way, our mission and - yeah.
GROSS: You know, I've heard a lot of people talking about dictators in the Middle East and was the Middle East actually better off with dictators than with the chaos and civil wars and ISIS and the other radical armed groups that are taking over parts of the region. So I'd love to hear you talk about that. I mean, the U.S. overthrew Saddam Hussein, and several years after that you have the Arab Spring, in which people rose up in Egypt and Tunisia and several other countries including Syria to overthrow or attempt to overthrow dictators. And, I mean, there's chaos through so much of the region now. It's a horrible choice, you know - chaos, civil war versus dictator. Who would choose either of those? But how do you wait the balance?
WRIGHT: You know, it would be arrogant of me to make the call about what serves the people of the region best. It's only fair to ask those who live there and who have suffered under both dictators and during warfare. We never learned how to deal with people in the region in a way that lets their priorities rule. We always want to create countries or systems that reflect what we do. And as a result, when we went into Iraq, the classic mistake was we disbanded the political party to which everybody had to belong - whether it was to get a job as a kindergarten teacher or a garbage collector - and we created a country from scratch. And we brought in people to make those decision who were exiles - who had abandoned their own country. We don't know how to help locals effectively build viable models. And we're impatient. We kind of want to switch on a light. It's just like with Gadhafi in Libya. We went in with a NATO coalition for eight months at enormous cost to pound the place to get rid of Gadhafi and push him out of power. And then we kind of walked away. And today, Libya is a terrible mess with, you know, dozens of militias. You have ISIS. And this is a country that has enormous oil wealth - was the one country that could have produced and rebuilt on its own because of its oil wealth - with a very small population, only 6 million. And yet we abandoned it. We just haven't figured out the balance of what's the right role. And frankly, the international community has really defaulted to the United States to take on that role, and then they want to blame us when we don't do it well.
GROSS: Do you ever feel like stability in the Middle East is just hopeless? Like, you've been covering that region for over 43 years and things seem to just keep getting worse in a way.
WRIGHT: I ultimately think that the Middle East is no different than the other regions of the world, and that part of the change that it's going through is part and parcel of what we've seen in the last 40 years with the collapse of minority rule, colonial rule and Apartheid in Africa, the collapse of military dictatorships in Latin America, the end of Communism in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union - that there is this wave of change as in the late 20th and early 21st century you see people understanding their rights - that they are entitled to have a say in their political life, in access to economic opportunity and to justice. And that's really the common thread that goes through this critical moment in history. You know, centuries from now, people will look at this period in terms of the commonalities. Now, the Middle East has been more volatile in part because of the religious components and also because the outside world - in part because of oil, we have to be honest about that - has backed autocratic rule. We wanted stability in a region where we needed their petroleum resources. And so we tolerated - whether it's the monarchy, an absolute authoritarian monarchy in Saudi Arabia, or the kind of autocratic rule we've seen in Egypt - you know, the dictators that prevailed until the Arab Spring. I think the Arab Spring is part and parcel, again, of this - whether it's the - just like the anti-Apartheid movement in South Africa, the rising up of the unions in a place like Brazil against a military dictatorship - it's all part of the same phenomenon. The problem in all of these countries, of course, is that their people understand their rights, but the other half of empowerment is understanding the common good and the sense of responsibility. And in the kind of headiness of saying, hey, I deserve my rights, and getting out in the streets to demand it, people are not thinking about, well, what's the alternative? How do we come together to create a viable alternative that does represent the vast majority of the people? And so that's why we're seeing this fractious period across the world and most of all the Middle East. But I don't think the Middle East is an exceptional part of the region. I mean, ironically the Arab-Israeli conflict - or the Palestinian-Israeli conflict - is one of the smaller conflicts. And frankly, when you look at what's along Israel's borders, the Palestinian's is one of the comparatively more stable borders. So I ultimately think this will be resolved, but I also think it's going to be a long time before any of these transitions are going to play out and we're in a place where we feel more comfortable. This is the story of the 21st century.
GROSS: Let's end by talking about pizza and hamburgers. On a recent trip to Iran, you went to a knockoff of a Pizza Hut and a knockoff of a McDonald's. What are those franchises called in Iran?
WRIGHT: The pizza place is called Pizza Hot, which is a rip-off of Pizza Hut. And there are 14 franchises in Iran, and they have the same boxes, the same logo, the same uniforms. It's very funny. You go in and it's the same menu. And then there's also Mash Donald's. Mash is a shortened version of Mashhad, which is the holy city of - one of the holy cities. It's a site of pilgrimage in Iran. So Mash is somebody who's done the pilgrimage to Mashhad. So they've done it Mash Donald's. And they have big Ronald McDonalds and all the kind of, you know, the toys and stuff that go along with it. I will say I got food poisoning there, and I don't recommend it to anybody. But it is a reflection of the fact that they may still shout, death to America, in Iran but there is also this longing to be back in some kind of relationship with America again.
GROSS: Robin Wright, thank you so much for talking with us.
WRIGHT: Thank you, Terry.
GROSS: Robin Wright is a contributing writer at The New Yorker magazine and is a joint fellow at the U.S. Institute of Peace and the Woodrow Wilson International Center. Our film critic, David Edelstein, will review the new Charlie Kaufman film, Anomalisa, after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.