Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jun 2013 08:55

While debating please do refer to logical fallacies and not fall for the traps as it will stand us all well I'm life.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 11 Jun 2013 08:57

rajsunder wrote:Advani Wanted To Be PM For At Least 6 Months

Horrifying idea - he would do huge damage if allowed a free rein for 6 months

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 11 Jun 2013 08:59

abhishek_sharma wrote:How about analyzing both past achievements and more recent mistakes? What makes us think that his mistakes in last 10 years are more damaging that his contributions in last 60 years (or vice-versa, depending on your opinion)?

As per Balraj Madhok (see http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/capital ... as-to-say/) he has always been a shifty character.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 11 Jun 2013 09:00

Yeah, I read that article. It is not that convincing.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 11 Jun 2013 09:03

Tasks ahead
The present witch-hunt of Narendra Modi should be investigated and exposed by the next government.
By Gautam Sen (10 June 2013)

London: Among the first tasks of a home minister of the Government of India in 2014 should be to establish a judicial commission to inquire into the criminal conspiracy to destroy one of India’s most popular, and also the most effective, political leaders since independence. The shameful deployment of the government apparatus, with the collusion of India’s foreign-owned media, to injure the reputation of Narendra Modi and implicate him in assorted alleged crimes cannot go unpunished. To its credit, India’s judiciary declined to join this outrage against Indian democracy.

http://www.newsinsight.net/Tasksahead.aspx#page=page-1

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 11 Jun 2013 09:05

What was he thinking before laying those conditions ??? PM for 6 months

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 11 Jun 2013 09:09

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 11 Jun 2013 09:09

Pranav wrote:As per Balraj Madhok (see http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/capital ... as-to-say/) he has always been a shifty character.

I agree with Pranav...of course a lot of this boils down to the testimony of Balraj Madhok but here's what he says about Advani:

Madhok also spoke about how he was implicated in a breach of discipline case by Advani at the Kanpur session after he himself leaked out confidential information to the media but blamed him for the leakage. Similar tactics were employed at the recent BJP National Executive meeting also when some secret letters were similarly leaked. Madhok says that Vajpayee, Advani, Nanaji Deshmukh and KR Malkani did incalculable harm to the Jana Sangh cause.

Between Modi and Advani - it is very evident that Modi is the straight shooter. He may be ruthless but he prefers the route of being upfront. Advani is just a plain old schemer. Its quite evident in their communication styles and their blogs as well. Modi comes straight to the point and is a delight to listen to. Advani rambles endlessly for hours offering no clues as to what he is really trying to get at.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 11 Jun 2013 09:13

krishnan wrote:What was he thinking before laying those conditions ??? PM for 6 months

Hmm.. there were rumours much before this which said that Advani for all his age etc. still cherishes of being the PM at least for a day. Remember reading about it a long time back that how Advani actually came in as a refugee from Pakistan, and had to rebuild his entire life from step zero. So it seems this perseverance to slowly move ahead step by step, also increased his desire to be the PM (one of the highest level of office in India). But off course his current joke of resigning etc., is only going to prove that he is a kind of "My way.. or the highway" kind of personality. I find a similar attitude in Yeddiyurappa as well.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2013 09:14

Arjun wrote:Advani rambles endlessly for hours offering no clues as to what he is really trying to get at.

Ans:

krishnan wrote:What was he thinking before laying those conditions ??? PM for 6 months

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 11 Jun 2013 09:15

What's happening? Realignments already in the air or mere posturing only? Just yesterday 1 statement and today 1980 degree U turn...what gives, I wonder...

Will support Narendra Modi as PM candidate, says BJD doing a volte face

NM will drive hard bargains for seat sharing with allies and will plough lonely furrow in states where there's no formal alliance (Odisha falls in that category).

I hope NM sticks to his ekla chalo strategy and deals with the BJD types after polls for Govt formation.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 11 Jun 2013 09:15

abhishek_sharma wrote: An expired medicine cannot be changed to good medicine. But people make mistakes and fail a few times. It does not imply that they will remain "bad" forever. If you have not made a few mistakes, then maybe you have not been tested well enough.

I said expired because he is 86 years old. How much more he can offer and how much more you will make him give? its hard but it is time to move on. We can have another thread drumming LKA's achievements. But this thread is about the future and it is NM.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 11 Jun 2013 09:17

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 11 Jun 2013 09:17

No probs. Being a Hindutvavadi and all, LKA should know that he can always become PM of India in his next life, or the next. But the fruits of his actions in this current life will dictate whether that happens or not. And I can't say that I see his current actions as facilitating his future ambitions. But that's me.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 11 Jun 2013 09:19

abhijitm wrote:I said expired because he is 86 years old. How much more he can offer and how much more you will make him give?

It is for him to decide whether he has the physical strength for the PM's job. Why should I judge if he claims to be healthy? Have you heard of any significant health problems?

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 11 Jun 2013 09:27

Sushupti wrote:

That's the spirit... People should get on with their lives.. Instead of cursing LKA, talk about issues which NM raised. Constructive talk is always better. everything is said and done. Cursing LKA will take one nowhere - only bad publicity. One reason why media turned this event into a spectacle yesterday was ensured TRP by over-enthusiasm of some NM supporters online and offline for whom NM support means cursing LKA in all sorts of manner. They should refocus on rajmata and khangress.

Cards have been played. Why gloat and kick the old lion again and again now simply because media is showing it over again and again?

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 11 Jun 2013 09:29

abhishek_sharma wrote:
abhijitm wrote:I said expired because he is 86 years old. How much more he can offer and how much more you will make him give?
It is for him to decide whether he has the physical strength for the PM's job. Why should I judge if he claims to be healthy? Have you heard of any significant health problems?

86 is too much. If you want a PM that old then I cant argue. I want NM and I am with the majority.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 11 Jun 2013 09:31

abhishek_sharma wrote:
abhijitm wrote:I said expired because he is 86 years old. How much more he can offer and how much more you will make him give?
It is for him to decide whether he has the physical strength for the PM's job. Why should I judge if he claims to be healthy? Have you heard of any significant health problems?

He declared in 2011 categorically that he will not be PM.. he cannot undo his own statement. So this possibility is blocked long ago.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 11 Jun 2013 09:31

My reading of the situation is:

Advani made some serious and very costly mistakes... not just costly for him personally, but for the nation as a whole. However, he did not make these mistakes in recent months, or indeed at any time after Modi came to centre stage nationally.

Advani made his mistakes somewhere around 10 years ago, and then compounded them in subsequent years. The Jain Hawala case comes to mind, but that was probably only the tip of the iceberg. The repeated visits to Advani by US envoys at critical junctures suggest that assets he may have acquired in the West also made him vulnerable to blackmail. Either way, the most disastrous results of this blackmail were the INC regimes of 2004 and 2009 -- and the worst government India has experienced at any time in her post-colonial history. For this, Advani is very much responsible.

What has happened since the Rise of Modi, I believe, is a function of Advani trying to extricate the future of the nation from being permanently condemned to the fate to which his mistakes consigned it from 2004 to the present. It has not been an easy maneouvre, because at every turn the levers of blackmail from Sonia Maino and her Western masters have pressed him to do their bidding. So Advani has had to make way for Modi while consistently appearing to bend to the will of those who blackmail him.

Let's face it; if Advani was a dyed-in-the-wool traitor dancing to the Maino family's tunes, then given his pre-eminence in the BJP and NDA, he could have done much worse to sabotage Modi than he actually has. His pronouncements against Modi have been anemic ("we congratulate you for making svasth Gujarat into utkrisht Gujarat", is that really the terrible criticism that the hyper-bloviating Congi Media has made it out to be?) Yes, it is Advani's own fault that he got himself into a position where he could be blackmailed into saying these things, or into making a show of opposing Modi in the small but over-hyped ways that he has.

But when all is said and done, he did not stand in the way of Modi's elevation to Campaign Chief. He opposed it just enough to show his blackmailers that he was doing their bidding, but not enough to abort it. And finally, when it became clear that Modi had claimed the position fair and square... Advani did the only thing he could, which was to resign.

More than anything else, I feel sorry for Advani. He reminds me of Lt.Col. Nicholson, the character played by Alec Guiness in The Bridge on the River Kwai. A man who let his egotism condemn him to foolhardy mistakes with disastrous consequences, but doing his best to mitigate his folly with a final act of redemption at the last minute. It is sad that such a long life of genuinely valuable service to the nation had to have such a dismal last chapter... even if it was of Advani's own writing.

It seems that Narendra Modi himself has recognized the duress under which Advani has acted, and chosen to let the episode pass gracefully. It seems that Modi has seen the futility of further blame and rancor within the BJP organization, when the future now holds a vast and epic battle to rid the nation of those truly inexecrable parasites who have sucked on her marrow for too long.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 11 Jun 2013 09:35

Pranav wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:How about analyzing both past achievements and more recent mistakes? What makes us think that his mistakes in last 10 years are more damaging that his contributions in last 60 years (or vice-versa, depending on your opinion)?
As per Balraj Madhok (see http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/capital ... as-to-say/) he has always been a shifty character.

Oh Pranav... so the Haraam Admi Party has got into issuing character certificates now, has it?

Quite amusing, really... considering you actually support a creature who has plumbed such depths of wretchedness as Arvind Kejriwal: the anti-national NAC-reject who took revenge on his former Maoist mentors by making a career out of unfounded rumor-mongering. The fun will begin soon for Kejriwal... he has made enemies across the political spectrum, with his sole ally being that most fickle of institutions, the Indian Media, whose rumor-mills he relentlessly fed. I wonder what will happen when the Ford Foundation decides, sooner rather than later, that he's not worth their quarterly budget.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Jun 2013 09:50

Great posts Rudradev ji --> twisting and turning with every passing breeze of twitter is indeed the right formulation.

I would like to challenge anyone who says LKA's current move is bad for the party --> Can any one mention ONE way in which this might go against its chances?

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 11 Jun 2013 09:55

vina · Post by **vina** » 11 Jun 2013 09:58

Sanku wrote:Great posts Rudradev ji --> twisting and turning with every passing breeze of twitter is indeed the right formulation.

I would like to challenge anyone who says LKA's current move is bad for the party --> Can any one mention ONE way in which this might go against its chances?

Yawn.. Rifled vs smooth bore debate again ? All these years, the BJP posters had Advani and Vajpayee . Now you will put up Advaniji's posters, even when he has quit all posts ?

Modi as a vote catcher might be true in Guj. But it wont work anywhere else. The only hope Modi has is to unite the Yeddys and BJD and JD-U, Akali and Shiv Sena folks together , or else it is a lost cause. Modi as the lone ranger / gun slinger who can shoot up all the baddies and deliver the gaddi in Dilli is pure academic master ba(y)shun.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Jun 2013 10:00

BJP takes a big risk on Modi, after mocking other parties for personality cults

The writer fails to realize that Modi is the brightest star in the galaxy of BJP at the moment. When the star fades, he will be replaced by some one else.

That some one else will also be his own man and not some one who is beholden to a political dynasty.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Jun 2013 10:04

vina wrote: Modi as a vote catcher might be true in Guj. But it wont work anywhere else.

In that vina ji prepare to celebrate the looting, rape and murder of India by your fav brigade again. In any case since when did you care about such things? This question is for those who are complaining that BJP is going to be hurt by LKAs action.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Jun 2013 10:04

Remains of the day

While we are at it, the usual suspect thinks that the party going by the will of its carder made a mistake. If Modi's elevation is a mistake. The paid media should take a step back and reflect. Who made Modi larger than life. Was it modi him self. Or the stupidity of the media.

It was the constant lies that were told. That made Modi what he is today.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Jun 2013 10:06

Rudradev wrote:It is a pedestal he has earned, by any stretch of the imagination, over six decades. He doesn't need BRF or anyone else to place him on it. That he seems to be doing his best to knock himself off it is unfortunate.

Rudradevji, I'm a small fry when it comes to analysis of such matters. So, please bear with me.

One thing that I understand very clearly is this: "Janani Janma-bhoomi-scha Swargadapi Gariyasi"...Mother and Motherland are above all. This is the mool-mantra, the guiding principle.

As a layman, I see the antics by LKA in this context. For the first time ever since Independence, the destiny of Bharat is on a inflection point. Various developments have combined to throw up an opportunity to finally mend the wrongs which have been inflicted on this country, this civilization and last thing we want is for such an opportunity to be lost because of personal agendas and pet peeves of senior leadership. To me, it seems that LKA is viewing the opportunity to dethrone Congress in 2014 as another political exercise and hence, the antics to secure a place for himself. But to me, 2014 represents that rare opportunity which can decide the future of this nation for 100 years to come. And every opportunity demands a suitable leader to tap into it and leverage it to turn around things.And today, that leader is Narendra Modi. Period.

The reason, IMO, NM is popular is because he represents an alternative to the system perpetrated by Congress and Gandhi Family. He is an embodiment of ideas and aspirations which people identify with. Some people say that he has grown bigger than the party. I fully agree with this. And reasons are not hard to find. In last 10 years, BJP has not done anything to portray itself as an alternate to Congress System. It is bereft of any ideas or even ideologies. And I'm not even talking about RJB/Hindutva agendas here. It is not NM who has tried to elevate his stature as bigger than the party, it is the people who have elevated him to this stature.My limited knowledge of Indian political scene tells me that last time the people of this country placed such tremendous faith in someone, it was Rajeev Gandhi. But he never understood the aspirations of the people nor the reason he was given the mandate.

NM is an idea whose time has come. And every Bharatiya need to put his heart and soul behind him to ensure he achieves his destiny and this country can take its rightful place under the Sun. I had promised on this forum that I'll travel 500 kms one way to vote in my home town if they make NM as PM candidate. I have never voted in my life but will surely do this time.

So, pardon me, if I see the recent antics by LKA as an act of 'desh-dhroh' and violating his dharma.

Regards,

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Jun 2013 10:07

Pratyush wrote:BJP takes a big risk on Modi, after mocking other parties for personality cults

The writer fails to realize that Modi is the brightest star in the galaxy of BJP at the moment. When the star fades, he will be replaced by some one else.

That some one else will also be his own man and not some one who is beholden to a political dynasty.

Personality cult? BJP has changed at least 4 generations of leader since Independence, each of them in their prime led the party at strong central authority. How does elevating Modi (and not even a big elevation right now only tiny elevation) result in all this verbal diarrhea?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2013 10:08

modi may have to prove at RoI places (Gujarat'), but given what he has shown so far, is enough reason to back him up.. plus he has age on his side.

but, i seriously don't get why advani should quit at all. so what does he achieve by doing this? only his gray hairs can say.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jun 2013 10:09

the BJP cannot survive in the current NDA - just a pale underfunded B-team of the INC.

its better the NDA collapse in current form and only true allies stay with the BJP for 2014.

sure the "new" smaller NDA might not muster a winning number in 2014, but atleast the old guard pro congis of BJP will be wiped out and it will function as a true opposition party and prepare for 2019.

we will get 5 yrs of rahowl raj - a continuation of the glorious rule of MMS raj. but thats the price to pay for all the distortions that have crept into our society and politics. it will take a long time to set right.

a lot of people incl in the media and law enforcement 3-letter agencies actually deserve to be prosecuted for what they signed on to.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Jun 2013 10:10

rohitvats wrote: So, pardon me, if I see the recent antics by LKA as an act of 'desh-dhroh' and violating his dharma.

Regards,

Rohit, as I asked before, how exactly will LKA's stand hurt any one but himself?

(is it not clear that he is also settling the PM candidate issue for all to see, including JD(U), no last minute nautanki)

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 11 Jun 2013 10:14

Rudradev wrote:
Pranav wrote: As per Balraj Madhok (see http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/capital ... as-to-say/) he has always been a shifty character.
Oh Pranav... so the Haraam Admi Party has got into issuing character certificates now, has it?

Quite amusing, really... considering you actually support a creature who has plumbed such depths of wretchedness as Arvind Kejriwal: the anti-national NAC-reject who took revenge on his former Maoist mentors by making a career out of unfounded rumor-mongering. The fun will begin soon for Kejriwal... he has made enemies across the political spectrum, with his sole ally being that most fickle of institutions, the Indian Media, whose rumor-mills he relentlessly fed. I wonder what will happen when the Ford Foundation decides, sooner rather than later, that he's not worth their quarterly budget.

As I have been telling other Advani admirers, I appreciate the obsession with the alleged affiliations of my humble self. Anyway, I am least bothered by personal remarks, nor do I bother to make any from my side.

As regards the other garbled outpourings, I see little need to respond.

You seem to be making a point about AAP funding, and if I recall correctly, you had recently made a claim that the land owned by the Church in India equals 4 times the entire area of the state of Punjab.

I am happy to look into all claims backed by credible data ... one should have a completely open mind.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Jun 2013 10:15

BJP must see Advani’s dissent as a blessing in disguise

What a minority on BRF has been saying about the resignation of LKA.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Jun 2013 10:18

Amazingly well played political game by LKA. Nitish/JD(U) is completely stunned. They have lost their leverage in BJP entirely, and it has been done so peacefully.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2013 10:26

I think he has stunned himself first. We will see more of this very soon.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Jun 2013 10:27

Sanku ji,

What will be the net effect of JD(u) leaving the NDA, On the election of 2014?

Will the BJP win enough seats to form a government?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 11 Jun 2013 10:29

Sanku wrote:In that vina ji prepare to celebrate the looting, rape and murder of India by your fav brigade again.

Hardly likely to bother him, Sanku ji. He's one of that set of 'nationalist' coots who prefer to prance around in the India-China economic thread claiming that India's dick is bigger....

Of course none of the predictions of this set on Chinese decline have come true over the last five years, rather the reverse has happened - nor does this set have the IQ to push for the leadership changes required for India to get its act together to take on China. Doesn't deter these dynasty-loving 'nationalists' from living in their fanciful world though...

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 11 Jun 2013 10:29

rohitvats wrote:
Rudradev wrote:It is a pedestal he has earned, by any stretch of the imagination, over six decades. He doesn't need BRF or anyone else to place him on it. That he seems to be doing his best to knock himself off it is unfortunate.

NM is an idea whose time has come. And every Bharatiya need to put his heart and soul behind him to ensure he achieves his destiny and this country can take its rightful place under the Sun. I had promised on this forum that I'll travel 500 kms one way to vote in my home town if they make NM as PM candidate. I have never voted in my life but will surely do this time.

So, pardon me, if I see the recent antics by LKA as an act of 'desh-dhroh' and violating his dharma.

Regards,

Rohitvats ji, I could not agree more that NM is the Prime Minister India needs right now. No one else will do, period.

I also agree that LKA has done his acts of desh-droh and violated his dharma. Where I differ with you is that it was his *recent* antics that are representative of this. That may seem so, but it's only because the recent antics are the ones that are getting media attention, and seeming to oppose NM (for whom there is overwhelming popular sentiment in support.)

I personally think that LKA's desh-droh happened during the campaigns of 2009 (and possibly 2004), as well as the ten years of non-opposition while the Sonia Maino regime raped and looted the country blind. That is very, very difficult for me to forgive... and as I mentioned before, I believe it was because the Maino regime had all manner of hooks into LKA via levers of blackmail that LKA had made himself vulnerable to.

However, I think the recent antics (though the media is doing its best to blow them up into a story of death-struggle between Modi and Advani) are actually more representative of LKA doing whatever he could to impact NM's rise to the least possible extent, while still remaining within the constraints and demands imposed by his blackmailers. Advani got himself (and the nation, by extension) into a bad situation from 2004 onwards. What we see now, in my view, is Advani trying to redeem himself from that bad situation at least at the very end of his tenure... to the best extent he can, given that the hooks and levers of blackmail are still embedded in his skin.

I strongly believe that NM knows this, and does not pursue any vindictive ambitions against LKA for this very reason. For all of us here who support NM's candidacy... we would do well to follow NM's example. Resist the temptation to heap blame on Advani, however much he may deserve it given the big picture. It will only end up doing more damage to the institutional framework of a national party-- the BJP-- that Modi still very much needs in order to fight the real battle for this country's future, the one that lies ahead.

Let the twitterati and the paid media gasbags go on and on about Advani vs. Modi vs. whoever. You know why they're doing it. For us to fall into the trap of becoming an echo chamber for this stuff is to shoot ourselves in the foot.

This is war, gentlemen. If we are to win, we can never lose sight of who exactly the enemy is.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 11 Jun 2013 10:32

Sanku wrote:Amazingly well played political game by LKA. Nitish/JD(U) is completely stunned. They have lost their leverage in BJP entirely, and it has been done so peacefully.

Exactly, sanku saar.. wait for some more time. I pre-thanked LKA for a sootli bomb, not just an anaar..

Not just JDU, many others are being stunned and will be stunned at the tango played by LKA and MB. Both have nothing to lose. LKA is 86 and MB is well, MB, head of a cultural organization.

They will both emerge unhurt in the end. MB will resign after a decade or so.. LKA will have moved up by then, all the misunderstandings undone. A really well timed soosai.

Why do you think babaji was there yesterday at LKA's residence? I do not think he contributed meaningfully other than speaking some token sentences. Yet he was there was behalf of NM and more importantly the VHP and sant-samaj of GV.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 11 Jun 2013 10:33

Pratyush wrote:BJP must see Advani’s dissent as a blessing in disguise

What a minority on BRF has been saying about the resignation of LKA.

I hope the BJP's media managers pick up on this message and broadcast it without pause. For God's sake... what we saw in Goa IS democracy in action. Even with the opposition of entrenched and senior party leaders, NM has gained Campaign Committee Chairmanship by virtue of winning majority support within the institution. This is the very paradigm of robust institutional democracy, more so than ANY other party, Yadav-led, Mayavati-led, Mamta-led, or Jaya-led can boast of. The old man opposed Modi, he lost, and surprise of surprises... he bowed out with a letter of resignation!

Are we so inured to the dictatorial remote-control of the Termite Queen For Life, that we see genuine institutional democracy as a sign of infighting and weakness? If we buy the enemy's propaganda before the battle has begun, forget about winning the war!