India-Russia: News & Analysis

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Johann
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Johann »

Sanku wrote:Yuri dolgoruky is a small example -- but for me a hugely significant one.
Even in the Yeltsin years strategic nuclear forces received the lions share of defence funds. This has continued under Putin

Which is perhaps why the repeated test failures of the Bulava ballistic missile intended to equip it has been such a major issue within the Russian government.
Am I with you when you say that it will be more a USA like power? Yes absolutely.
The US remains a global military power, and the world's pre-eminent one and will remain so for decades. Russia is not in any way comparable in conventional terms. Its conventional force projection capacity outside the former USSR would be better compared to France.

Nor will the size of Russia's economy remotely resemble that of the US, or the EU or China for that matter. India's own GDP in PPP terms is now approaching twice that of Russia's.

Russia's economic power is much more like Saudi Arabia's, but combined with a large nuclear arsenal and UNSC veto vote. Important, not easily ignored, but again nothing like the US, or even China.

It is in fact the complementary strengths and weaknesses of the EU and Russia that might encourage greater integration between them.
Sanku wrote:Meanwhile -- all the Russian ambitions are clearly intact (your own links) as is their thinking of being a effective civilization pole independent of the west.
The Russians (like the French) support a multi-polar world order, and the pursuit of Russian national interests, but all of the Kremlin establishment figures who spoke in 'What Russia Thinks' see this as the means to *prevent* what they see as Russia's artificial exclusion from the West. In particular they look at France's position within the West as an indication of what is possible - within the West, yet with its own views and interests.
Sanku wrote:Also Russia still possess, a tremendous repository of quantity of fairly good military equipment (in relative terms) and more importantly skills and knowledge which are still outside the control of all but US in the world.
Russian equipment is attractive because of its price to performance ratio, but military technology is rapidly advancing, and keeping up costs money that Russia does not have. Russian weapons are getting more and more expensive, and outside air defence and submarines, less and less technologically competitive. Algeria sent its MiG29Ks back to Russia because it wasnt happy with them. Israel has replaced Russia as its largest defence supplier.

What we're seeing is essentially countries like India, China and Iran buying Russian expertise to help them solve problems and develop expertise in specific areas they're lagging behind in, like jet turbines, etc.

After 2020, China is likely to increasingly replace Russia as the ideal supplier in terms of both price and technology for many countries. Even India may be better placed to export weapons than Russia to countries that dont want to buy Western or Israeli or Chinese.
Sanku wrote:So overall, these micro analysis, along with the broad historical trend of Russia faltering once in a while and coming back to feet robustly again, tells me not much has changed still.
The *only* long term hope for Russia retaining or recovering its position is if it can become a world class manufacturer, able to compete with Europe, Japan, China, Korea, the US and India in the global consumer and industrial markets.

Medvedev put it very starkly in his speech in August at the United Russia conference

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news ... -efq6.html
He told Russian political party leaders in the southern city of Sochi that Russia was "treading water" by not implementing reform and needed to urgently change the structure of its export-dependent economy.

"We cannot develop any longer like this. This is a dead end. And the crisis has put us under such conditions that we will have to take decisions about changing the structure of our economy. Otherwise our economy has no future"
He has repeated this in a public letter, and a number of speeches -essentially agreeing with what economists all over the world had said, and rejecting the rhetoric of the Putin years.

The problem is that the success of this proposed reform can not be taken for granted. These involve fundamental changes in many areas of Russian life, and the consensus for these changes does not exist, and is in fact opposed by elements of the Russian ruling classes. There is an in-depth discussion below

http://www.russiaprofile.org/page.php?p ... 1253292373

A complete restructuring of the legal system, the economic system, etc, and a new Russia is possible, but there's no saying when it might happen, or how long it will take to succeed, especially in areas like nano-technology in particular where the Kremlin is literally banking on commercial breakthroughs.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Sanku »

prad wrote:Sanku:
the fact remains that US has integrated more diverse populations into its mainstream than any other country. the chances that US will shudder internally b/c of above normal immigration are very low.
Prad, US has done a better job of integration than any other country than India probably true.

However you seem to be extrapolating that success to an extent which is not warranted -- and immigration from Europe is a different kettle of fish than immigration from Mexico.

It remains to be seen what impact will the continuing immigration of non European population will have on US. Prior examples can not be extrapolated.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Johann you have left most of the points I made unargued but still let me take the ones you have chosen to take up.
Johann wrote:
Sanku wrote:Yuri dolgoruky is a small example -- but for me a hugely significant one.
Even in the Yeltsin years strategic nuclear forces received the lions share of defence funds. This has continued under Putin
Umm yes so? The point is that it is inducted now. A total of 20 year hiatus in getting new stuff is finally getting broken.

As I said Yuri dolgoruky was one example, the others are newer Mig 29Ks for their Navy, resumption of patrols, Pak Fa development etc etc.
Am I with you when you say that it will be more a USA like power? Yes absolutely.
The US remains a global military power, and the world's pre-eminent one and will remain so for decades. Russia is not in any way comparable in conventional terms. Its conventional force projection capacity outside the former USSR would be better compared to France.
I am referring to this
This is going to have a real effect on its near abroad, and possibly within its own boundaries. Russia is likely to become a different kind of power. Less hard power, more soft power, although the Kremlin will do its best to disguise the fact.
This is a more typically American behavior, of soft power doing a lot of talking with some hard power to back it up, mostly in big tickets items as opposed to boots on the ground.
Sanku wrote:Meanwhile -- all the Russian ambitions are clearly intact (your own links) as is their thinking of being a effective civilization pole independent of the west.
The Russians (like the French) support a multi-polar world order, and the pursuit of Russian national interests, but all of the Kremlin establishment figures who spoke in 'What Russia Thinks' see this as the means to *prevent* what they see as Russia's artificial exclusion from the West. In particular they look at France's position within the West as an indication of what is possible - within the West, yet with its own views and interests.
Yes, but then I dont disagree ever in the first place?
Russian equipment is attractive because of its price to performance ratio, but military technology is rapidly advancing, and keeping up costs money that Russia does not have.
First off, it has nothing to do with my point, which is that RIGHT NOW (next 10-15 years) Russia still has old stuff which is much better than what many people can access from sources other than US) and you can not arbitrarily take out Air defence and Submarines skews the picture. Why take them out?

Secondly am not sure of how true it is. If you look at the MRCA technical threads, the Russian system may be a little behind the other best in class western ones (note the best in class) but they can easily catch up if there is intrest.
What we're seeing is essentially countries like India, China and Iran buying Russian expertise to help them solve problems and develop expertise in specific areas they're lagging behind in, like jet turbines, etc.
Which money and development stays in house in Russia and gets reused by Russia, Indian Mig 29Ks are helping Russian naval fleet.

Goes to make my point even more strongly.
After 2020, China is likely to increasingly replace Russia as the ideal supplier in terms of both price and technology for many countries.
:lol: We shall see, so far other than hand me downs to Pakistan, they haven't done anything remotely spectacular. They cant even get a plane up in the air without Russian assistance, they will compete with Russia how?

Its like saying India becomes a exporter of Nuke subs over Russia.
Sanku wrote:The *only* long term hope for Russia retaining or recovering its position is if it can become a world class manufacturer, able to compete with Europe, Japan, China, Korea, the US and India in the global consumer and industrial markets.
A strong industrial base and improvement in manufacturing remains the bed rock of all industrialized nations and hence Russia. So does the concept of internal consumption as opposed to export driven economy (like China) or one which is badly dependent on imports (India, US)

These are challenges sure, but given Russian history not big ones (unlike China say which has never known that sort of thing)

And they have all resources in house.

So yes, they are certainly better placed to achieve it than nearly any country in the world

I am not even sure if this means that "Russia has to become like European policies or have a certain way of working.

In fact it is easy to see that the "rhetoric of Putin years (internal) mind you" delivered what Russia needed then. Russia is a different country with different people. A certain amount of emotional cajoling with creating conditions where the avg Russian goes out work (instead of enjoying the great country and vodka) is the way to go.

The so called "soft structures" of Europe particularly and US have been shown more than once to be more than a bit of fraud. Usually a veneer of commercial exploitation and or hugely unsustainable ponzi schemes.

It remains to be seen where the world will be after this hiccup, the last hiccup cause WW II and destroyed Europes primacy based on looting.

This hiccup would probably remove the last vestiges of that order based on running out of accumulated wealth of Colonial era as well destruction of colonial modes of economic working which persisted after WW II.

Russia however has been a major power in any era, and will likely to reclaim its position (it will of course never be USSR again just as US will never be a hyper power again)
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Sanku »

prad wrote:Sanku:

Russia has tried for more than a century to transform itself into an industrialized state like Europe and US.
it has failed repeatedly at this endeavor.
Well I do not think so, fall of the Soviet system, and industrialization are not necessarily the same thing, neither is consumer demand fulfillment a principle goal of a industrial system, since consumer demand could involve a Barbie doll too and not choosing to make dolls is not necessarily a metric of successful industry.

USSR did have a fairly good capablity of Industrial system, of its own ideosyncracies, one good enough to principally defeat the much better German war machine and keep the entire western block tied up all over the world till it broke.

Putin decided it was time to put a stop to the industrial experiment
Can you back that statement up with any Russian references saying that the Russian state has deliberately chosen to move away from industrialization as part of policy. (note loss of industry in shock phase is not a policy decision)

The link that Johann posted is actually 180* of what you are saying BTW, It says that Russia is very much aware and trying to get to a hold on it.
they are facing an existential crisis with ever decreasing ethnic Russian population vs. minority population.
Yes they are facing that. True, but then so is Europe and so will China see the greying hit them in next 10-15 years. Neither is US particularly robust (immigration not withstanding) with all its economic and outsourcing woes.
they are trying their best use whatever they have right now to save themselves. this in turn is a bad long-term strategy.
Who has a "working long term strategy" :lol: every body has their own set of woes to fix. Everyone is trying to survive this year.
the future innovations will not come from Russia. in fact, they are more likely to come from China and India than Russia.
Well let us start seeing a "cheep" in terms of innovation from them before we walk down that route. Meanwhile last I checked -- Russia was still working hard on Nukes, Aircrafts and submarines and they were all pretty decent.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by svinayak »

prad wrote:Sanku:

Russia has tried for more than a century to transform itself into an industrialized state like Europe and US.
it has failed repeatedly at this endeavor.


It is the market economy which has failed for Russia. Market economy and a foundation for a stable economy for decades is important for any major power. Industrialization will sustain on that foundation.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Sanku »

prad, I dont think I can reply to that post above it has too many statements like
Russia is losing its comparative advantage in many areas that it used to dominate until now.
Sure but so is US, and so is China in some space and so is EU.

The question is not whether Russia has strenghts or weakness -- the question is how they will pan out to form a exact picture.

Broadly speaking both super powers (USSR and USA) have peaked and are on their decline phase. The new world will be multipolar (unless major wars refashion the picture) that much is given.

However I expect Russia to be significantly important and one of the four major poles in 2020-50 period (India, Russia, China and US) barring significantly upsetting events (major war etc)
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Acharya wrote:
prad wrote:Sanku:

Russia has tried for more than a century to transform itself into an industrialized state like Europe and US.
it has failed repeatedly at this endeavor.


It is the market economy which has failed for Russia. Market economy and a foundation for a stable economy for decades is important for any major power. Industrialization will sustain on that foundation.
Russia will never be able to have a market economy type of picture, its essential geography prohibits it. It will future will always be shaped on its basic geography -- a huge space with massive natural resources but of middling quality of human habitation and agrarian social thinking.

This however does not preclude their staying a significant world power they have always been.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by svinayak »

Sanku wrote:
Russia has tried for more than a century to transform itself into an industrialized state like Europe and US.
it has failed repeatedly at this endeavor.
It is the market economy which has failed for Russia. Market economy and a foundation for a stable economy for decades is important for any major power. Industrialization will sustain on that foundation.

Russia will never be able to have a market economy type of picture, its essential geography prohibits it. It will future will always be shaped on its basic geography -- a huge space with massive natural resources but of middling quality of human habitation and agrarian social thinking.

This however does not preclude their staying a significant world power they have always been.
Russia will have a market economy but will be based on commodities. But Russia does not control the commodities exchange market which is far away and that will be weakness. Their economy will not be based on consumer , manufactured goods or services.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Acharya wrote:
Sanku wrote:
Russia has tried for more than a century to transform itself into an industrialized state like Europe and US.
it has failed repeatedly at this endeavor.
It is the market economy which has failed for Russia. Market economy and a foundation for a stable economy for decades is important for any major power. Industrialization will sustain on that foundation.

Russia will never be able to have a market economy type of picture, its essential geography prohibits it. It will future will always be shaped on its basic geography -- a huge space with massive natural resources but of middling quality of human habitation and agrarian social thinking.

This however does not preclude their staying a significant world power they have always been.
Russia will have a market economy but will be based on commodities. But Russia does not control the commodities exchange market which is far away and that will be weakness. Their economy will not be based on consumer , manufactured goods or services.
We agree.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Johann »

The Soviet Union was one of the world's largest industrial economies for decades. It had the natural resources, and it had the human capital to sustain that.

Stalin set the USSR on that road in 1928, using agricultural exports to pay for foreign technology and expertise in order to establish Soviet manufacturing capacity.

The problem was that all that production was not structured, or directed in economically sensible fashion. It was designed and directed by the state to maximise Soviet military potential, rather than maximise GDP, or its share of global trade, etc. Stalin's doctrine, not repudiated until the 1980s was that the USSR had to be militarily stronger than all its enemies combined in order to survive.

Putin, Medvedev all acknowledge the failure of the Soviet Union stemmed from its inability to grow the economy at the level needed to sustain the arms race it began in the late 1920s.

Russia has abundant natural resources, enough to make absorb the transportation costs to sustain an industrial economy. It also accumulated significant capital in the 2000s from oil revenues, most of which have now been spent.

The problem in the Russian economy is one of incentives - the state isnt sure it knows how to build globally competitive industries outside the field weapons, and even there its edge is eroding. The titans of Russian private industry are making sufficient profits right now from natural resource exports to not feel the need to compete on the global market.

Yet Medvedev is right; natural resource exports are not generating enough revenue on their own to meet the absolutely mind boggling costs of rebuilding all of Russia's physical and social infrastructure, re-equipping its armed forces, recapitalising industry, especially the arms industry, etc. The revenue from these exports are both highly volatile, and in the case of oil and gas, declining. Without generating those investments, Russian decline will be very serious, worse than even the 1990s.

Medvedev, and even Putin desperately want Russia to transition in to being the next Brazil, the next South Korea, or even the next Mexico or China in industrial terms but they arent sure how to do it.

Every Russian ruler has struggled with the question of how to push the Russian elite in to accepting and driving change. Traditionally like Ivan the Terrible, or Peter the Great, or Stalin they have relied on establishing total control, and terrorising those elites. Putin re-established control over the elites, but no one has figured out how to make them do to make them a world class creative and productive, rather than extractive group.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Johann wrote: Putin re-established control over the elites, but no one has figured out how to make them do to make them a world class creative and productive, rather than extractive group.
Why not do what the previous Rulers did to get there?
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by putnanja »

Antony to review defence projects during Russia visit
NEW DELHI: Bilateral defence relations and several ongoing projects will come in for review when Defence Minister A.K. Antony travels to Moscow for the annual meeting of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) next week.

He will be there on October 14 and 15 for the ninth round of the meeting, held alternately in India and Russia.

The projects to be reviewed include production of T-90S tanks, modernisation of SU-30MKI aircraft, BrahMos missiles, progress in the development of Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft and Multi-Role Transport Aircraft (MRTA) and possibly the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov (INS Vikramaditya) deal.
...
...
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by kmkraoind »

India, Russia to ink new military pact
NEW DELHI: The US might be the new kid on the block, with Israel and France already well-entrenched, but India is keen to keep its long-standing
military ties with Russia on the right track despite glitches, time and cost-overruns in defence deals.

India and Russia will extend their `strategic and military partnership' by another 10 years when PM Manmohan Singh holds a summit meeting with President Dmitry Medvedev in Moscow this December.

The groundwork for inking of the fresh inter-governmental agreement on military-technical cooperation, to extend the partnership right till 2020, will be laid when defence minister A K Antony visits Moscow next week for talks with his Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov.
India, of course, realises only Russia will be ready to supply it with some `sensitive' stuff. Sometime early next year, for instance, India will get the K-152 Nerpa Akula-II nuclear-powered submarine from Russia on a 10-year lease as part of a secretive 2004 deal.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Johann »

Sanku wrote:
Johann wrote: Putin re-established control over the elites, but no one has figured out how to make them do to make them a world class creative and productive, rather than extractive group.
Why not do what the previous Rulers did to get there?
Two reasons

- The informal consensus among Soviet elites (from whom all Soviet and Russian leadership emerges) after Stalin was never to return to Stalin's methods. This holds true even for those amongst them who seek to protect Stalin's image and legacy.

- enough of them doubt that such methods would succeed in creating an economy that would be competitive on the global market.

For both of these reasons Medvedev seeks a cooperative effort towards reform with the Russian elites - that is how industrial and commercial transformation occurred in Japan, Korea, China, Brazil and Mexico.

The change of mindset required is formidable - Russian bureaucrats don't really care about innovation or growth, and the existing Russian elites are addicted to hot money and fast money even worse than the worst of Wall Street. The state may need to identify and empower a new elite to build new enterprises; however this will be a tough political battle since it will affect existing elites, and there is a finite window for change to take hold and succeed before the huge costs of replacing the legacy infrastructure of the Soviet Union catches up - we are coming on 20 years since Soviet dissolution.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by sanjaykumar »

Yes there is one way to get India into the country club whilst keeping the numbers the same.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Igorr »

A.K.Antony - Serdukov meeting in Moscow. - a brief review in my blog.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by negi »

The dark side of Humanity is weapon and wars, but who says the war is worse than humiliation?

I like it. :twisted:
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Johann »

http://russiamil.wordpress.com/


Where does the Russian Military Stand after a Year of Military Reform?

October 15, 2009 by Dmitry Gorenburg
The first announcement of the impending military reform came on October 14, 2008. Most analysts assumed that the proposals were just talk and would remain on paper, either through bureaucratic stonewalling or through lack of financing for the reform effort. Now, a year into the process, there are no doubts that the reform is for real and is virtually unstoppable.

Causes for the Start of Reforms

Although the high command has been uncharacteristically silent on the thinking behind the reform, information on the reasons that the process was initiated has recently started dribbling out. Most interesting is the recent statement by Ruslan Pukhov, the director of Russia’s Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies. He argues that the reform began at the beginning of Putin’s second term as president, when top people in the presidential administration began to ask why, despite the increase in financing for the military, its effectiveness continued to decline. They decided that something needed to be done with the lack of transparency in the military financial system, which fostered widespread corruption. They also decided that Sergei Ivanov, Putin’s handpicked Defense Minister, was failing at his task of reforming the military and that the job had to go to someone from outside the “force structures”, someone who would not “treat the military as a shrine at which one should pray but as a broken mechanism, which he has been tasked with fixing.”

But even with the appointment of Anatoly Serdiukov as Minister of Defense, it took several years to break the power of reform opponents and begin the process of radical reform. Last summer’s war with Georgia seems to have been the final straw. According to the same article in Profil, Nikolai Makarov (the chief of the General Staff) has spoken of the lack of pilots able to carry out missions in wartime and of his difficulty in finding top officers with sufficient battlefield experience to command troops during the conflict.

Serdiukov seems to have taken the tasking of “fixing the broken mechanism” very much to heart, in pushing through the reform plan without regard for the widespread opposition both in the military and among outside experts. In this, he seems to have the full support of both the president and the prime minister, as shown by his ability to prevent the financial crisis from derailing government financing for reform.
A New Kind of Army

Russian officials and analysts are gradually beginning to speak more openly about the changes in threat assessment that have accompanied the reform effort. As Pukhov stated, the political leadership finally recognized that the West, while not Russia’s friend, is also not Russia’s enemy, and Russia neither wants to nor is able to fight a war against it. Once they had recognized that neither the US nor Europe was truly a military threat to Russia, they had to give up the notion that Russia had to be prepared to fight a global conventional war and begin to transform the Russian military into a force able to fight local wars in the near abroad.

It has been difficult for the Russian leadership to announce this shift openly, because of the continued emphasis on anti-Western (and especially anti-American) propaganda as a way of distracting the population from domestic political and economic problems. Events such as the recent Zapad-2009 military exercise in Belarus, which was designed to simulate the defense of Russia and Belarus from a large-scale invasion from the West, feed the continued perception that the Russian military views NATO and the West as a potential military threat. But given the structure of the newly reformed military, this is an illusion. The truth is that the Russian military of the future will not be capable of fighting a major war against NATO, but will have to depend upon its nuclear arsenal to deter against the possibility of such a conflict. Instead, the military will focus on improving its capabilities to fight against insurgencies and local adversaries — in other words the kinds of wars they have actually fought in the last 10-15 years.

This change in focus meant rejecting the mass mobilization army of the Soviet period and turning to a fully professional mobile army — one in which all units are fully staffed and where joint operations are the norm. To this end, once the transformation is complete, we should expect the complete elimination of conscription. While some reform opponents argue that this transition is going to destroy the army’s fighting potential, others argue that the damage from maintaining the current ineffective system would be greater than from any reform effort, as the current army is simply not able to fight.
Potential Roadblocks

While many generals are openly or secretly opposed to the reform, they no longer present a serious threat to the reform effort. The most outspoken opponents of the reform effort have been removed from their positions over the last two years. Those who remain in the ranks understand that they can only preserve their careers if they keep quiet.

There may be more of a challenge from rank and file soldiers and especially junior officers, who fear that the reform will cause them to lose their jobs and do not trust the government to provide them with the housing they are owed when they leave the service. In fact, the provision of housing for retirees has been slowed by a combination of the financial crisis and unrealistic targets for building and acquiring new apartments.

At the moment, official data from the Defense Ministry states that 90 thousand officers are owed housing. There was a plan to build somewhere between 45 and 60 thousand apartments during 2009-2010. But because of lack of financing, only slightly more than half of this target will be met in the alloted time frame. At the same time, the Finance Ministry has increased funding for military housing acquisition for 2010 from 81 billion rubles to 113 billion rubles, with the goal of providing all retiring officers with housing by the end of 2011. I would guess that there will be further slippage, but the target will be met within the next 3-4 years.

Junior officers are also unhappy with efforts by the Defense Ministry to avoid giving officers who are being laid off the additional compensation that they would normally be owed.
What Comes Next

The structural reorganization part of the reform effort is now more or less complete. The new brigade structure is almost fully in place and will be completed by December 1.
The following steps will be much less visible to the public, as officers and soldiers get used to working in the new command structure, while officers from eliminated units continue to be laid off gradually as housing and money for severance payments become available. We should also expect to see more exercises similar to this summer’s Kavkaz-2009 and Ladoga-2009, where the military learns how to function in a more coordinated and mobile environment.

In the longer term, as sergeants begin to graduate from training courses in 2011, and especially as the number of 18 year olds drops precipitously in 2012, we should expect an increased focus on hiring professional soldiers and the subsequent total elimination of conscription. To this end, salaries for professional soldiers and for junior officers will be raised by 2013 in order to make serving in the military more attractive and to increase retention.

New equipment remains the missing part of the puzzle. While purchases of some big ticket items (such as the Mistral) from abroad might fill gaps, the military will not be able to afford too many foreign purchases. The only hope for the military to receive modern equipment to go along with their modern force structure is for Russia to revive its defense industry, which will require significant investment on the part of the government. There have not really been outward signs that the government is planning to make such expenditures, but given how few leaks preceded the rollout of the organizational reform, this does not mean that such plans are not being made.
Last edited by Johann on 22 Oct 2009 23:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Igorr »

Medvedev-Krishna meeting in Moscow.

PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA DMITRY MEDVEDEV: Mr Minister, colleagues,

It is a great pleasure for me to meet with you, especially in view of the dynamic, systemic, multifaceted political dialogue that exists between the Russian Federation and India. Clearly, your visit is very important within the context of our dialogue, particularly in preparing for Prime Minister Singh’s official visit to the Russian Federation, which will take place in December of this year.

We meet regularly and have talks in a variety of circumstances. This assures the continued development of our multifaceted and very productive relations, which are based on the similarity of our positions, on partnership, and on mutual support. Furthermore, we are naturally discussing a variety of issues, ranging from bilateral economic cooperation, which is currently very important to the Russian Federation and, I hope, India as well, to matters on the international agenda, regional problems, and our joint efforts to counter modern threats, such as terrorism, drug trafficking, and organised crime. We are also discussing other issues, including our joint cooperation to overcome the effects of the global financial crisis. And so, I welcome you. I hope that the discussions you had so far today have already been fruitful and that you will tell us about the results that you reached.

INDIAN FOREIGN MINISTER S. M. KRISHNA (as translated): Thank you, Your Excellency. It is a great honour for me to have this opportunity to meet with you. This is my first visit to Russia. India will never forget the support offered by your country when we set on a path to achieve sustainable economic growth after our nation gained independence. Just recently, the President of our nation, Mr Pratibha Patil, visited Russia and we would like to say, on behalf of the Indian side and all our political parties, that we are interested in establishing close political and economic ties with the Russian Federation. All of us conform to this approach.

Our ties with Russia will always be a priority in our foreign policy, and an essential element of our cooperation. We see Russia as a world power that plays a special role in ensuring peace and security in our region and throughout the world.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Sriman »

Igorr wrote:Medvedev-Krishna meeting in Moscow.
INDIAN FOREIGN MINISTER S. M. KRISHNA (as translated): Thank you, Your Excellency. It is a great honour for me to have this opportunity to meet with you. This is my first visit to Russia. India will never forget the support offered by your country when we set on a path to achieve sustainable economic growth after our nation gained independence. Just recently, the President of our nation, Mr Pratibha Patil, visited Russia and we would like to say, on behalf of the Indian side and all our political parties, that we are interested in establishing close political and economic ties with the Russian Federation. All of us conform to this approach.
:shock:
Big gaffe there by the Kremlin translators..
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Sriman »

prad wrote:
Sriman wrote: :shock:
Big gaffe there by the Kremlin translators..
not a gaffe. it's true. Patil was in Russia recently.
I know, i was referring to the wrong honorific used in official Kremlin communication.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by putnanja »

Muppalla
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Muppalla »

That would make it easy for MIG-35 :)
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

Sriman wrote:
prad wrote:
:shock:
Big gaffe there by the Kremlin translators..
not a gaffe. it's true. Patil was in Russia recently.
I know, i was referring to the wrong honorific used in official Kremlin communication.

She might be the only man in the Govt.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Yogi_G »

Muppalla wrote:
That would make it easy for MIG-35 :)
Not to forget, I believe we still owe the Russians some money from the old Rupee-Rouble trade (or is it completely paid up :?: ). If we approximate the MRCA deal somewhere between ~10-15 billion $ roughly, the rupee-rouble trade will ensure that valuable foreign exchange will not leave the country.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Philip »

Russia has supposedly offered the KH-38 missile along wiht the MIG-35 to sweeten the deal,also for the IN's MIG-29K.AWST.

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Air ... ation.html
Kh-38 (Russian Federation), Air-to-surface missiles - Direct attack

Type
Infra-red, laser, radar or satellite guided battlefield missile.

Development
The Kh-38 is the first new tactical missile design to emerge from Russia in over a decade. It is a modular, precision air-to-surface weapon that can accept four different seeker/guidance options. It is intended for use against armoured or hardened land targets, and ships in the littoral environment. The Kh-38 has been widely described as a replacement for Raduga's Kh-25 missile family, but the missile that has emerged in public is a larger and more versatile weapon than the Kh-25.The missile, marked simply as Kh-38ME, was shown in public for the first time at the 2007 Moscow Air Show (MAKS2007). It is a product of the Raduga Design Bureau - although it was not formally identified as such. Raduga now functions as part of Russia's unified Tactical Missiles Corporation (TMC). Although it has newly emerged into daylight, the Kh-38 is not a new programme. First reports of it date back to the mid-1990s along with an associated Raduga project, the Kh-36. The Kh-38 was then described as a 300-kg class anti-ship weapon (and a successor to the Kh-25). Later reports referred to a Kh-36 air-to-surface missile that it would be fitted with either a TV or imaging infra-red (IIR) seeker. The Kh-36 was described as another potential replacement for the Kh-25 but no further details emerged and the Kh-36 disappeared from view.No information is available on the design and development history of the Kh-38, but the Kh-38M designation suggests that the current configuration has been modified/improved from its original
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Post by Johann »

http://russiamil.wordpress.com/2009/10/ ... air-force/

Upgrading the Air Force
October 26, 2009 by Dmitry Gorenburg
Friday’s NVO [http://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2009-10-23/1_imitation.html] ran an interesting story on the procurement problems facing the Russian Air Force....

As a result of attrition of old aircraft combined with a lack of new acquisitions, the Russian Air Force currently has fewer than 500 combat airplanes that are capable of flight. From 1994 to 2003, the Russian Air Force did not receive any new combat airplanes. From 2004 to 2009, the Russia Air Force received only three new combat airplanes — one Tu-160 strategic bomber and two Su-34 strike aircraft.

...Sukhoi’s PAK FA... As I write this in late October 2009, official estimates indicate that one prototype may be ready for flight in 2010, though continuing problems with engine design may lead to further postponements.

The Su-34 strike aircraft has faced similar problems...The first test flight of the prototype took place back in 1990, but due to lack of financing and construction problems the first unit did not actually enter service until August 2007. Since then, mass production of the aircraft has been continually pushed back and few have actually entered active service. Given this history of construction delays, the goal of having 70 Su-34s in the air force by 2015 and 200 by 2020 appears more and more unrealistic.

Most of the numerous modernization programs for existing aircraft that have been mentioned by air force officials over the years have either never happened or have been ineffective in improving the aircrafts’ capabilities. For example, the recent modernization of SU-24, SU-25, and SU-27 aircraft was mostly focused on new electronics, while retaining old armaments...

....All of these problems with modernization and procurement are the result of a broken and decaying military industrial complex. In the 1990s, the physical plant of most Russian defense industry enterprises decayed as the result of a lack of financing. At the same time, most of the best-qualified specialists retired, were laid off, or left for other fields with better economic prospects. Because of the lack of qualified personnel, defense enterprises have had difficulty keeping to production timelines and the end products have often had significant defects. This has been a particular problem with advanced weapons and weapon platforms, such as aircraft and combat ships. (The most well-publicized example is the Bulava SLBM, which has repeatedly failed test launches due to substandard components.)

The end result is that, much like the Russian Navy, the Russian Air Force is facing the likelihood of further decay in its capabilities, to the extent that its commander in chief is raising the possibility that in the near future it will not be able to fulfill the missions delegated to it by the General Staff.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Karan Dixit »

Russia 'simulates' nuclear attack on Poland

Russia has provoked outrage in Poland by simulating an air and sea attack on the country during military exercises.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... oland.html

(Note: What affects Russia affects India too. So, I am posting this news. I hope it will not attract Ak47 from Admins. :))
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Philip »

Russia buying the French Mistral class LHPD,which india si also looking at,to give it an edge in the Caucasus' conflict zone.

http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?opti ... Itemid=132
Allons Enfants de la Russie in the Black Sea?

Vladimir Socor

The French government and, apparently, the Élysée Palace are moving fast to sell at least one Mistral-class helicopter carrier to Russia, possibly for deployment in the Black Sea. Such a sale would endow Russia with a modern naval and amphibious warfare capability that Russia currently lacks. The Mistral is by definition a power-projection capability and it can be deployed for intimidating effect on Russia’s maritime neighbors.

Less than two months ago the Russian Navy's Commander-in-Chief, Admiral Vladimir Vysotskiy, had announced Moscow’s intention to buy a Mistral-class helicopter carrier from France and the license to build several ships of this class in Russia. He also hinted at possible Russian deployment of this capability to meet contingencies in the Black Sea: “In the conflict in August last year [against Georgia], a ship like that would have allowed [Russia’s] Black Sea Fleet to accomplish its mission in 40 minutes, not 26 hours which is how long it took us [to land the troops ashore]” (Interfax, September 11, 15).

The Mistral is a state-of-the-art class in the French naval inventory, with only two vessels of this type on active duty thus far and a third under construction. It carries 16 attack and landing helicopters (while allowing the operation of up to 30 on both decks), up to 900 troops, four conventional landing craft (also allowing the operation of two hovercraft), and 40 Leclerc tanks, or alternatively 13 tanks and 40 other vehicles (http://www.netmarine.net/bat/tcd/mistral/histoire01.htm). These are the figures for short-term operations, the only ones relevant to Russia for possible actions in theaters nearby.

According to West European observers (Financial Times, October 13), Russian deployment of a helicopter-carrying ship in the Black Sea would not necessarily violate the 1936 Montreux Convention. While that convention bans aircraft carriers from passing through Turkey’s Bosporus and Dardanelles Straits, Russia could argue that a helicopter carrier does not qualify as an aircraft carrier. The interpretation might then depend on Turkey, Russia’s latest “strategic partner” in the Black Sea.

With Russia’s other strategic partner, France, negotiations are proceeding apace over the technical and financial terms of the Mistral sale. As currently envisaged, the first ship and, possibly, a second one would be built in France, to be sold without sophisticated electronics. Two or three additional ships would then be built jointly, under French license in Russia. The French decision is expected to be finalized during the first half of November.

Selling the Mistral without sophisticated electronics would not reassure Russia’s maritime neighbors. Russia would even in that case acquire a potentially threatening capability for power projection, which most of its maritime neighbors could by no means match or offset. The Russian military intends to put Russian Ka-27 and Ka-29 helicopters on the Mistral, if the sale goes ahead (Interfax, October 23; RIA Novosti, October 31).

French Prime Minister Francois Fillon has declared in a speech at the École Militaire that partnership with Russia “can take several forms in the defense sphere, from military cooperation to close industrial partnership,” alluding to the Mistral deal (Agence France Presse, October 9). Last year at the NATO summit in Bucharest, Fillon had voiced concerns that membership action plans for Georgia and Ukraine would upset the “balance of power” to the detriment of Russia. Whether delivery of the Mistral would upset the balance of power to the detriment of France’s NATO allies and its partners in the Black Sea or other theaters, however, does not seem to be a consideration for official Paris.

The French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner and Defense Minister Herve Morin, discussed the Mistral sale during their latest visit to Moscow, where Russian President Dmitry Medvedev received them. Kouchner and Morin joined their Russian counterparts, Sergei Lavrov and Anatoly Serdyukov, in the regular Franco-Russian 2+2 ministerial consultations on foreign and defense policies. At the joint news conference, Morin welcomed Russia’s intention to purchase the Mistral while Kouchner expressed hope that Russia would soon acquire this “great,” “wonderful” class of ships, once the technical and political procedures are completed (Interfax, Ekho Moskvy, October 1).

From the official French standpoint, the Mistral sale to Russia would both express the “strategic partnership” and provide an economic stimulus for the crisis-hit STX France shipyard. The latter would team up with the French DCNS naval shipyards to build the Mistral for Russia. The STX, traditionally known as Chantiers de l’Atlantique, currently two-thirds South Korean-owned and one-third French state owned, badly needs shipbuilding orders to save French jobs. President Nicolas Sarkozy promised this when visiting the shipyard almost one year ago. Apparently, he wants the government to secure a Russian contract (Les Echos, October 7).

Meanwhile, Moscow is alluding to possible deals with the Netherlands or with Spain for helicopter carriers made in those countries. Such hints serve to goad Paris to rush the sale of the Mistral.

Russia’s naval command is now equivocating about the number, possible missions and areas of deployment for the Mistral in Russia. According to Vice-Admiral Oleg Burtsev, the First Deputy Chief of the Russian Navy’s Main Staff, Russia may acquire and build up to five ships of this class for possible deployment anywhere from the Northern or Pacific Fleets to Somalia. The Russian shipyards in Severodvinsk or in St. Petersburg could build these ships under French license (RIA Novosti, Ekho Moskvy, Zvezda TV, October 31).

French authorities ignore warnings such as that of Sorbonne professor Francoise Thom: “Is it wise to arm a country that has just dismembered a neighboring state, Georgia, and no longer conceals its intentions to restore, by force if necessary, its hegemony in the ex-Soviet space? Is France, in the name of its ‘strategic partnership’ with Russia, closing its eyes to Russian preparations for future wars of aggression, which will become possible once Russia’s military reform, launched in September 2008, will have borne fruit? We must not be deluded into selling offensive armaments to Russia” (Le Monde, October 7).

In Brussels, an unidentified “senior figure at NATO Headquarters” sees no problem there: “This is a legal and bilateral issue between France and Russia and there has been no discussion about it at NATO” (Financial Times, October 13). If this is indeed the case, it would only reflect the deterioration in the quality of consultation processes there since August. Candid discussion of this issue there could be one way to restore that quality.

Iranian “Litmus Test” for Medvedev’s Problem Free Foreign Policy
Pavel K. Baev

The style of Russia’s foreign policy has softened remarkably during the last year as President Dmitry Medvedev seeks to bring closure to the “episode” of the war with Georgia and wipe out all speculation on a hypothetical new Cold War. Gone are the “visionary” anti-American prophecies of a multi-polar world and bitter complaints of insufficient respect paid to a “rising” Russia by the declining West, that were trademarks of Vladimir Putin’s leadership. Russia’s new friendly face is perhaps an improvement, but with the change of style the substance of foreign policy has all but disappeared. When Medvedev presides over military exercises together with Alyaksandr Lukashenka or Nursultan Nazarbayev, it does not signify a surge in military cooperation with allies. Equally, his angry letter to Viktor Yushchenko, does not mean that a new Russian-Ukrainian “gas war” is in the making, while Prime Ministers Vladimir Putin and Yulia Timoshenko might indeed make it happen (Nezavisimoe voennoe obozrenie, October 16; Kommersant, October 31).

The current culmination of the long-running conflict over the Iranian nuclear program illustrates perfectly this lack of content in Medvedev’s policy. Moscow did play a useful role in hammering out –together with U.S. and the European troika– a joint proposal for sending the bulk of Iran’s low-enrichment uranium abroad and returning it as fuel for nuclear reactors. It does not, however, seem particularly disappointed with the predictable counter-proposal from Tehran that is aimed at buying more time for its uranium enrichment project (www.gazeta.ru, October 28; Vremya Novostei, October 26). During his meeting in September with U.S. President Barack Obama, Medvedev agreed that “in some cases, the use of sanctions is inevitable,” but the Iranian case apparently warrants only patient diplomatic maneuvers. Moscow appears eager to upgrade the “reset” of relations with the U.S. to a meaningful partnership, but it is perfectly happy with the strong support for Iranian defiance expressed recently by the Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan (www.newsru.com, October 27).

Voicing “principled” reservations against sanctions, Moscow equally finds every possible reason for delaying the launch of the Bushehr nuclear power plant –much to the frustration of its Iranian partners and no small damage to Russia’s reputation as a competitive nuclear contractor (RIA Novosti, October 26). Even more ambivalence exists around the $1 billion export contract on the surface-to-air missile system S-300PMU-2, which Moscow has never admitted signing and now characterizes as “frozen” (www.lenta.ru, October 23). This contract might have been the subject of the secret visit to Moscow of Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in September, and it resulted in considerable speculation around the still unexplained hijacking of the Arctic Sea freighter in the improbable location of the Baltic Sea (Rossiyskaya Gazeta, October 30). Medvedev, however, prefers to speak in general terms that “Iran needs a set of motives to behave appropriately.”

Medvedev’s only foreign policy success is not of his making as Washington sends its top negotiators to Moscow –National Security Advisor James Jones following U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton– in order to maintain the dynamics of strategic rapprochement. Arms control is the main focus of these efforts and the new text that is to replace the expiring START I is taking shape, even if the Russian side is hugely reluctant to reciprocate with compromises. The key proposition in the agreement remains the same –strategic parity understood as numerical equality– and it is difficult to implement it as Russia’s aging nuclear arsenal is shrinking fast towards a level, which is uncomfortably low for the U.S. This desperate weakness in Russia’s position was aggravated by yet another unsuccessful test of the Bulava sea-based missile last week (this time it failed to clear the launch tube on the Dmitry Donskoy strategic nuclear-powered submarine), which the navy command has tried to deny (Nezavisimaya Gazeta, October 30). Medvedev uttered some unusually critical words about the outdated and over-priced products of the defense industry, but as far as negotiations are concerned, he cannot afford to be seen as giving too much ground to the pushy Americans (Ezhednevny Zhurnal, October 30).
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Suppiah »

There is some hope for Russia - Medvedev is slowly drafting an independent policy..good luck to him..

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 0255.story
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by D Roy »

Mods,

Requesting a new thread titled -

'India's relations with former soviet republics'

This is for topics related to Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Georgia etc etc.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Johann »

Philip,

The Mistral deal will probably involve one sale, and licenses for construction of additional ships and equipment by Russian companies.

The Russians can not afford to buy everything from abroad, and both they are falling behind in both design as well as manufacturing technology.

A licensing deal gives them the technology infusion they so badly need, while upgrading one facet of their maritime capabilities.

However despite this the Russian Black Sea fleet is going to decline very sharply - see this;
http://russiamil.wordpress.com/2009/09/ ... orgia-war/

However, the other Black Sea former Soviet states are in even worse shape, leaving Russia ahead of them - this is one of the reason they are so resolutely against Ukraine or Georgia joining NATO.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by svinayak »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxB-lMQu958
Rs 24 Response to Missile defense system that the americans want to place in Poland to attack Russian people and steal their land. The new multi warhead system will allow complete retaliation against any American nato aggression . Some of Russian nuclear weapons and missiles to protect the mother land from the infidel.aggressor which tries to Invade Russia. This keeps the balance of power and removes the threat of military aggression by USA and its colonies of NATO . Russian Nuclear weapons Forces. Some of Russian nuclear weapons and missiles to protect the mother land from the infidel.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Karan Dixit »

Moscow, Nov 15 : Final sea trials of Russia's Nerpa nuclear attack submarine, to be leased to India, will begin next week.

http://www.newkerala.com/nkfullnews-1-151228.html
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by putnanja »

An article in Hindu by the new Russian ambassador to India ...

Another tryst: imagining India & Russia -Alexander Kadakin
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Jarita »

I tell you we are back to cold war configs. Russia not as strong as before. India somewhat stronger than what it was earlier
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by D Roy »

The Russians have made musings before to the effect that "India should not forget old friends while making new ones".
The deal that changed India's geopolitical position would not have been possible without Russia's kudanakulam moves.


Our main problem is that a lot of the white/FMCG goods that Russia requires comes directly from China. and energy trade also takes place across border.

They have a bloody rail line connecting beijing to moscow now. its very difficult to compete with overland trade.

Our best would be to connect Chahbahar ( Iran) with Russia with a rail line, and ship goods to Iran.

The Russia-India relationship must be turned into a proper economic relationship.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Sanku »

D Roy wrote:
The Russia-India relationship must be turned into a proper economic relationship.
I believe our only hope over next 20-30 years is to get into strategic partnership mark II with Russia.

All the bloody time MMS and GoI wasted sucking up to GoTUS, only to get a middle finger would have been served 100x better by having two high level genuine Putin-MMS meeting, where there would be no dance but a frank disucsion.

We can take Energy, Mil tech from Russia and send high quality consumer goods, food items, non mil techonology etc to them.

We only need to get the western middle men in terms of MNC and dollar out of the picture and return to rupee-rouble trade.

Both the govts should promise to give their citizens the local currency at predefined levels in exchange for other currency.
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