Bharat Rakshak

Its not so much the standard of schools as the perception that outcomes are better in a certain school that causes parents to line up for admission. The only real divide in that sense is between the English language and local language schools. And all the tuition classes around, I wonder why India cannot move to a home schooled model. Such homeschooling will put a damper on the school business so that only the good schools survive, and will reduce the workload on the kids who have to attend both school and tuition classes.

Another annoying trend is some schools' insistence to test/interview parents. One more is some schools' attitude in getting only the cream of the students. They want to be able to advertise that their school fared 99% or 100% in the exams - there by indicating quality of the school - teaching, support staff, infrastructure ithyadi. I have no problems with it - after all they are Corporations looking at the bottom line.

But isn't primary education about imparting some education into the young minds. For me a school is which ends up adding some value to the student as he or she moves up the classes.

In my small sampling of schools among relatives I think the schools in big cities have become mere corporations.

I have heard annual expenses to the tune of Rs30,000 and upwards in the outskirts of Bengaluru.

Scarce, expensive and low-quality - pick any three.

It's amazing how the scarcity model works in so many completely separate industries in India, from electricity to Internet bandwidth to education.

SwamyG wrote:Another annoying trend is some schools' insistence to test/interview parents.
They want to be able to advertise that their school fared 99% or 100% in the exams - there by indicating quality of the school - teaching, support staff, infrastructure ithyadi. I have no problems with it - after all they are Corporations looking at the bottom line.
I have heard annual expenses to the tune of Rs30,000 and upwards in the outskirts of Bengaluru.

The test/interview for parents are to gauge the paying ability (milking factor amenability) assessment to build a data base. Basically, if parents display they can't keep up with jonses, the ward will be denied admission.

There was craze for the convent type schools such as the very famous ones in Bengaluru, because that is where all the wards of uber rich and stylish crowd gravitate. Style factor was/is more of concern for these type of institutions and they start very early at the primary level. It is such institutions who charge an arm and leg to just get not very decent education, but of course will have all the exposure to "worldly affairs" and can put on an accent to sneer at lesser unwashed kids.
The garden variety vidya mandirs generally do not have such exorbitant fees, but do a relatively decent job. The results of the 12th standard exams reflect that consistently, where the convent types are regularly taken to the cleaners by the vidya mandir types in karnataka. The vidya mandir types regularly top the charts and have better average be it CET (Common Entrance Exams) or public exams at 12th grade level.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citi ... 577802.cms

After stunning performance in SSLC/PUC, Tier-II cities like Mangalore, Hubli, and Mysore have thrown up toppers in CET 2009 results which were declared on Monday.

SwamyG wrote:I have heard annual expenses to the tune of Rs30,000 and upwards in the outskirts of Bengaluru.

That seems cheap. My cousin was paying Rs. 45,000/year per child about 8 years ago in outskirt of Pune. Of course, the school was more like a good US public school, but still the cost is not affordable by the majority of people.

25k pa is the lower end at most decent eng medium schools in kolkata. at some of the more hi-fi ones it was 98k pa, 6 years back.

I heard varying numbers; but these were for UKG and I/II classes onlee. I did hear 45K and upwards too. In Hyderabad I have heard 1lakh and above per year. One of the cab drivers that I talked to mentioned he knew of another cab driver who paid 20K for his child per year.

In my opinion instead of calling them schools we ought to call them, rightly, as corporations - preying on the parents fears and desires.

Maybe the government could regulate the fees or have a cap on the fees

The salary of President of India is about Rs.1.5 lakh per month, while that of a governor is around Rs.80000 pm before taxes. Assuming these represent the highest possible pay in government sector, most of the working folks would not be able to afford Rs. 45000 per annum for a single child for primary education. Looks like cost of education is disproportionate to cost of living in recent times.

these are just the school fees, does not include
a) transport cost
b) books and other stuff which are getting costlier by the day
c) uniforms, growing kids need new ones every year and most schools recommend at least 3-4 sets, usually of more than 1 type, sometimes as many as 3. most of the lower middle class find it extremely difficult to afford stuff like blazers
d) one off expenses like excursions, festivals and so on.

frenzy for next yrs admission in blr is already picking up. NPS and dilli public school top the wishlist. (the mit and stanfords of bluru )

I can hardly see a strong and fit kid in my apartment complex (other than my own bratcat) - some are reed thin, some have the kind of belly Mallu ultra-masculine film actors would be proud of.

we are like this onlee - bring on the homework !

write 200 times:
"I shall not talk in class" wa wa wa
"I shall not talk in class" wa wa wa

I have heard annual expenses to the tune of Rs30,000 and upwards in the outskirts of Bengaluru.

Saar, I pay Rs 35K per annum for our kid who goes to the neighborhood play school (it is quite nice and friendly), not any of the brand name big schools!. Kid is in LKG .

I have peace of mind until next year . Finding a "big" school for her in the 1st std will be the "challenge". I hear that most school have a JEE like entrance exam for 1st std. . With my brat being lazier than I am, I really dont know how that JEE will pan out, even if there are places in 1st std..

Why cant life be as simple as the day when grandpa driving past FAPS in Bangalore (it used to be pink in color those days,not the ugly whitewashed white of today) on the way back from Command Hospital , thought ,oh,, we need to put you in a school, goes up to the principal with me in tow, and within 30 mins, am seated in a class with other kids with an Anglo Indian teacher in skirt minding the class (Bangalore- Cantt was full of such types in those days, all of them have disappeared now, a real tragedy if there was one, they really added color and diversity to life in Bangalore back then) and grandpa saying he will pick me back in the afternoon and left me there. I brought the roof down with my hollering of course and the school had to phone home for someone to come and pick me up right away.. .. Problem is since we now live far away from the ol' hood , the first choices of good old Bangalore schools (which are largely clustered in the city) becomes hellish because of the commute. In the suburbs it is these newer public schools and transplants / maquiladoras from Dilli, Chennai etc.

Who had even heard of imports from Dilli with names like Dilli Public school that is now a "parvenu" chi-chi pretender to the ejjucashional top spot in Bangalore.. Dilli Public School's catchment is primarily the Hindi speaking North Indian recent arrivals , logic is simple, in case we have to move back to North India /Dilli for any reasons, school wont be a problem!.

Singha wrote:NPS and dilli public school top the wishlist. (the mit and stanfords of bluru )

WTF? And here I had the impression that the public school phenomenon was good solely for the MMS p0rn industry.

Heard Kapil Sibal mouthing platitudes to the shrill Burka Dutt the other day.... "foreign universities will be allowed, but only for non profit"..."they will come we wont give special facilities" etc etc

For God's sake, why would anyone want to be here? Whats wrong with making profit in education? The govt has failed in providing access to good primary education for middle class that dont want to send their wards to govt schools. If you cant start schools, at least dont obstruct others... Non-profit thing is a complete eye-wash... what do you think the current private engineering colleges are? Are they full of selfless administrators that spin khadi mouthing verses from Gandhibaba's autobiography every day? They are the most profit minded people around... if they are okay, why are foreign universities wrong?

WE should allow corporations to start schools... the sector is already a for profit sector, it is ridiculous to expect and make laws otherwise.

chi chi parents also seem to tie themselves into knots on the CBSE -vs- ICSE issue. CBSE is 'perceived' as better for competitive exams. my pov is it depends on the particular school (teaching staff), ability and interest of the child than the syllabus. many of us here came from state boards with a far far lower quality of syllabus than the KV not to speak of 'hallowed' skull and bones portals like the dilli schools

Vina ! wake up bro - most schools these days have classes from nursery or
LKG. onree few are left that admit into class1. the bulk of seats are filled up
by students promoted from UKG. situation for direct entry in class1 will be tight I bet unless its a new school like NPS HSR layout that opened last yr to squeals of delight from the hsr/jp nagar/koramangala/orr 'set'

if you are living deep within the town perhaps bishop cotton for boys & girls and sophia school (girls) are the best bet.

now if you decide to spring for that adarsh villa in ORR - many international schools will be glad to serve you

That non-profit thing is complete hogwash and has many connotations. The status to declare something as non-profit is extremely beneficial if one also claims as a minority institution. There is no free market system allowed in starting and maintenance of schools. Getting classified as a minority institution pays rich dividends. Do not know how, the structural changes are these days. Some of the Rama Krishna Mission institutions and other such as Lingayat institutions in karnataka were clamouring to be treated as minority institutions to reap the benefits. That's another story altogether. It is no free market system in setting up educational system. Else you would see many come up.

This has created a genre of schools, such as st. x, st. y, st.z yada yada. Heck in Bengaluru. there is even "Lord Maculay public English primary school", somewhere in the vicinity of NIMHANS or Dharmaram college (another minority institution). It will be more of the same with the non-profit nonsense.
BTW, teachers are not the ones who are making the moolah even in DPS like settings, with all the exorbitant fee collections.

these are just the school fees, does not include
a) transport cost

Kids these days are pampered lot. In good old days, most of the kids could and would walk less than 15 min (approx 25 to 30 min for high schoolers) to get to decent educational institutions in B'luru.

>>Whats wrong with making profit in education?
Making profit is not a sin. When one focuses only on the bottom-line forgetting the mission then the Corporations err schools land into problems.

From: National Policy on Education 1986

The Essence and Role of Education

2.1 In our national perception, education is essentially for all. This is fundamental to our all round development, material and spiritual.

2.2 Education has an acculturating role. It refines sensitives and perceptions that contribute to national cohesion, a scientific temper and independence of mind and spirit -- thus further the goals of socialism, secularism and democracy enshrined in our Constitution.

2.3 Education develops manpower for different levels of the economy. It is also substrate on which research and development flourish, being the ultimate guarantee of nationl self-reliance.

2.4 In sum, Education is a unique investment in the present and the future. This cardinal principle is the key to the National Policy on Education.

As I don't really like banning private schools at the primary or secondary level, the compromise would be to have some fees cap with some regulation. The kind of cap and regulation would have to be discussed. It is my charge that schools disproportionately levy fees at the primary class students. Yes they are looking for RoI, but charging in the excess of 30-40K?

On the other hand, it shows how badly the government schools are being run and the aversion of folks towards government/state schools.


A good read: http://lawmin.nic.in/ncrwc/finalreport/v2b1-5.htm

SwamyG, no arguments with what you have posted. I was just pointing out the utter hypocrisy of Kapil Sibal when he mouths that only non-profits will be allowed into education when everyone and his uncle is indulging in the worst type of profit making currently as you have pointed out.

JwalaMukhi wrote:Getting classified as a minority institution pays rich dividends.

What are the rules around the minority classfication anyhow? In states like TN where more than 50% of seats are reserved, it should be possible to get the General Category classified as a minority, no? Can one start minority schools on a caste basis?

vera_k wrote:

JwalaMukhi wrote:Getting classified as a minority institution pays rich dividends.

What are the rules around the minority classfication anyhow? In states like TN where more than 50% of seats are reserved, it should be possible to get the General Category classified as a minority, no? Can one start minority schools on a caste basis?

There are mainly 3 type of minority institutions, they are Religious, Caste and Linguistic. If you cannot eligibility for Religious-Caste based quota, then try Linguistic quota. Like if you from Tamilnadu/Andhra, you can apply minority quota in Bangalore (Karnataka). Its very simple. The famous Oxford and PES institutions of Bangalore have been established by Telugu people under linguistic monitory quota.

^^^^
Really? I did not know caste and lingual basis were used to determine 'minorities'. I read that Constitution talks about 'minorities' but never actually defines the term Minority. Articles 29 and 30 give protection to the minorities to preserve their culture and religion and to further their interests by establishing and administering educational institutions.

SwamyG wrote:^^^^
Really? I did not know caste and lingual basis were used to determine 'minorities'. I read that Constitution talks about 'minorities' but never actually defines the term Minority. Articles 29 and 30 give protection to the minorities to preserve their culture and religion and to further their interests by establishing and administering educational institutions.

http://ncm.nic.in/constitutional_prov.html

Though the Constitution of India does not define the word ‘Minority’ and only refers to ‘Minorities’ and speaks of those ‘based on religion or language’, the rights of the minorities have been spelt out in the Constitution in detail.

2.4 ‘Separate Domain’ of Minority Rights

The Minority Rights provided in the Constitution which fall in the category of ‘Separate Domain’ are as under:-

(i) right of ‘any section of the citizens’ to ‘conserve’ its ‘distinct language, script or culture’; [Article 29(1)]

(ii) restriction on denial of admission to any citizen, to any educational institution maintained or aided by the State, ‘on grounds only of religion, race, caste, language or any of them’; [Article 29(2)]

(iii) right of all Religious and Linguistic Minorities to establish and administer educational institutions of their choice;[Article 30(1)]

(iv) freedom of Minority-managed educational institutions from discrimination in the matter of receiving aid from the State;[Article30(2)]

(v) special provision relating to the language spoken by a section of the population of any State;[Article 347]

(vi) provision for facilities for instruction in mother-tongue at primary stage;[Article 350 A]

(vii) provision for a Special Officer for Linguistic Minorities and his duties; and [Article 350 B]

(viii) Sikh community’s right of ‘wearing and carrying of kirpans; [Explanation 1 below Article 25]

Here the term culture is very vague and is exploited by "dominant caste" with somewhat of distinct identity, like Lingayats and Veerashiavas in Karnataka.

Regarding linguistic monitory quota, I am unable to get exact source, but here is the Google cache

Cong tussle holds up home for IIT
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090918/j ... 511670.jsp

50 foreign varsities interested in having campus in India
http://www.livemint.com/2009/09/1623025 ... i.html?h=B

Cabinet clears nine new NITs
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article21744.ece

The new NITs will be set up in Manipur, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland, Goa, Puducherry, Sikkim, Delhi and Uttarakhand. The Goa NIT will cater to the Union Territories of Daman & Diu, Dadra & Nagar Haveli and Lakshadweep, the Puducherry NIT will cover Andaman & Nicobar Islands, and Chandigarh will come under the Delhi NIT.

Ministry order kills pay rise hopes for IIT, IIM faculty
http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/ ... aculty.htm

‘Gloss’ tag on IIT, IIM pay revision
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090918/j ... 510481.jsp

Indian Government Calls for Both Austerity and 9 New Engineering Universities
http://chronicle.com/blogPost/Indian-Go ... _medium=en

IIT professors to go on hunger strike on Sep 24

Clicky

"We will observe strike on September 24. But we will not boycott work. The classes will go on. We will protest the pay structure that puts a number of curbs on the IIT's system," Prof M Thenmozhi, president of the federation, said after the meeting.

The IITs are also opposing the provision that at least 10 per cent of total faculty strength should be recruited at the level of assistant professors.

[/quote]

Whats wrong in that?

Rahul Mehta wrote:

The IITs are also opposing the provision that at least 10 per cent of total faculty strength should be recruited at the level of assistant professors.

Whats wrong in that?[/quote]

My bad - I read Assistant as Associate. Thanks for pointing it out (post corrected). In fact I would suspect the intention of the faculty if they are opposing more assistant professors (subject to meeting criteria of quality ofcourse) - do they simply want more lecturers to do teaching labour?? - without new asst. profs. how will research be spurred on.

Recast Legislation in India Would Free Foreign Universities From Tuition and Quota Rules
http://chronicle.com/article/Recast-Leg ... _medium=en

Academic say in madarsa board ---- CHARU SUDAN KASTURI
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090922/j ... 526446.jsp

Sibal said the government has "never interfered" with the autonomy of IITs "but the pay system has to be regulated because we are answerable to Parliament. So we have to have some eligibility condition for entry and promotion in faculty. They are opposed to eligibility. This is unfair."

With enough information, I can clearly take a side and say that Sri Sibal is obfuscating facts here. The issue is clearly "answerable to Parliament" and nothing else here. The rest of the stuff is bullshit, its a clear disinformation campaign by MHRD. Either that, or this is Toi rubbish yet again. Folks I know wanna burn either one, but thats for another day.

Regarding the latter, Mr. Sibal said: ”...At any university take MIT, Harvard or Stanford, it takes several years, sometimes 10 to 20 years, to take tenure.

Which stanford, which mit? Takes six years and in most places you will know it by 4-5 where the drift is. Admitted that there is no proper system of tenure in India, why should someone sit on a lower pay for a longer period than elsewhere. Especially if the starting pay is so low anyway. Why the fck do they want so many IITs and IIMs if they cant attract nuff people into the system, especially when its fcked up elsewhere? Common sense, ada thoo....

All that we are asking is that the state PhD with no teaching experience should not be immediately absorbed into the system. If he has had 2 years teaching experience, then he can have a one-year contract and then we can absorb him. If no experience, then it’ll take him three years to be absorbed.”

Why this magical three year crap which is a baggage from the past? Made sense in 0 BCE, does it make sense in 2009 ACE, especially with a pipeline of IITs and IIMs and a dime a dozen institutions proposed already? Each state and ut wants one s_hole, so who is going to hire people there, the GoI or the diros, who is gonna talk to people and say "please come". Or should it be "come if you like" attitude.

He said that the “tenure is not a matter of pride” and that after the contract period ended, the institutes could use their discretion to absorb the professors. “We won’t interfere in that process.”

If the market is better elsewhere, why will they even look at India? Again common sense, you cant sit on ur ass and say "we have been doing xyz since time immemorial, so we will continue to play ga__ games". This demand has been going on for ages and everytime the file gets pushed down, now the media is dorking the matter and making it sensational and mhrd is facing the sting.

The minister concluded by saying: “We are promoting excellence... I am sure the faculty of IITs don’t want to dilute excellence and we are the ones that want to promote it.”

Yea, that message would have been received if they had stopped their mission dilute-iit-brand.

PS: Suffice it to say that my previous post was downright wrong.... wrong statements read in the wrong context, I take the blame.

Ok this wrangling is all about pay and little else. It had been super-terrible a few months back and it is now better, the faculty at IITs want more cos they sense blood. Thats a way to put it and both sides have their points.

Sri Sibal's point is that not all faculty members can get the highest pay grade, the fac fed (ff for short)'s point is that with a 40% cap soon all the 40% will be taken by people who reached that spot eons back, in short first come first serve. They say why put cap at 40% and not on performance for which they have a point. Sri Sibal and edu sec at MHRD say, we have constraints on cash-flow, we cant arbitrarily raise the cap and the parliament will screw us if we do that. Esp in times of recession such as these.

Both sides points have merit, I assume Sri Sibal by taking an aggressive route has signalled something, esp that ig-nobel laureates dont i-strike etc. The ff will bend a bit, but both sides need a face-saver here, conceding so that it does nt seem like they are conceding. The ff has been pissed with the 6th pay commission which put em in a certain band which they feel was not commensurate with their work quality/quantity, and even those recommendations while approved in paper was not seen in real pay due to the IIT Act which kept them separate from other GoI employees. The gripe is why should we fight when we do a yeoman service to the country when the babus take far more of the cake than us. I guess the natural barb to that is the % of babus in the working population of GoI is microscopic in comparison with % of professors.

Bottomline: This problem is not gonna be solved unless the economy grows and more people get better rewards, till then its bk n forth. Wonderful, at least the point has been made, time to work now.

Ok this is getting too internecine for comfort.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 048191.cms
My only point is that folks who join the faculty tradition for reward rather than respect are cheating themselves and the whole circle around them. Time to follow the standard vodka and pizza routine, for ddm will try to derive more sensationalism on how a 1 day hunger strike is ah-so-bad for India's image etc. There are tons of people who go without nuff food for days on end, enuf, time for both sides to scale down and ddm to be put out of its misery....

Couple of facts I learned today + one which I already knew in some form.

1) GoI wants to pump up the PhD production in India mandating that as many of the engineering colleges have faculty with PhD. So it is armtwisting iits to push out more bakras from the pipeline. IITs are trying to resist but will soon have to fall in line and increase student intake etc. Apparently, some universities have already fallen in line with GoI diktat. But they have failed to improve infrastructure commensurately, so the quality is dripping downwards from epsilon to zero.

2) A PhD student gets paid around 16k a month for 4 years subject to guide + HoD approval saying he/she is making sufficient progress towards PhD. In the 5th year, this number goes down to 6k per month. All in the iits, of course. After 5 yrs, no cash for the student.

3) No. of folks going for higher studies in the us (or anywhere else) from the iits is shifting downwards to zero. One branch, which I dont want to mention by name, with a strength of ~30 per class has seen 2-3 enrollments in the us in the last 5 years. And these enrollments have been not in the top of the class. Most of the class either goes to iims or takes jobs, dont ask me what type of jobs. No data on these trends other than overall figures. So iits have become complete donuts, garbage in garbage out with no scope for undoing garbage mentality anywhere. Nehru must be shaking in his grave, destruction near-complete.....

^^^ Stan, any figures on what is the average salary for a freshout IIT BTech (top 3/4 streams) for job in ITvity/Consulting nowadays?

Raja Bose wrote:^^^ Stan, any figures on what is the average salary for a freshout IIT BTech (top 3/4 streams) for job in ITvity/Consulting nowadays?

Median salary of 8-9 lakhs per annum. Many IITians join finance and consulting after B-Tech (if they don't go for higher studies in massa land). Only a few people go to technical jobs

Stan_Savljevic wrote:3) No. of folks going for higher studies in the us (or anywhere else) from the iits is shifting downwards to zero. One branch, which I dont want to mention by name, with a strength of ~30 per class has seen 2-3 enrollments in the us in the last 5 years. And these enrollments have been not in the top of the class. Most of the class either goes to iims or takes jobs, dont ask me what type of jobs. No data on these trends other than overall figures. So iits have become complete donuts, garbage in garbage out with no scope for undoing garbage mentality anywhere. Nehru must be shaking in his grave, destruction near-complete.....

Why is this bad? These days it is not as if these guys will have brighter propsects in US than in India.

vera_k wrote: Why is this bad? These days it is not as if these guys will have brighter propsects in US than in India.

Long before the iits came around, the most popular form of conduit to higher ed in massa was a random step or mis-step, a la a democratic representation of sorts. People would have a diverse and vague background and then follow that up with higher ed in massa and land in good jobs. What the iit system did during its early days was streamline this pipeline of folks. Clearly, I am talking about the pre-90s iit system as entrance seemed to be directly linked to enthu and some form of EQ rather than mugging for jee. Many folks from this era were clearly enthu for higher ed, went there became famous, and made the iit brand what it is today. Once these people left the pipeline, the folks who jumped in the bandwagon were driven primarily by the brand name and consciousness than anything to do with enthu for the core subjects. The norm during this time was to go to coaching classes, enter iit, coast, and eject after 4 yrs. What we saw were what you see today of the current crop of iitians -- a buncha crap. So we built a pipeline of steady stalwarts and in the democratization, we demolished it in one go. It is neither good nor bad per se. What I was whining about the fact that we constructed something with so much fight, but could nt fite nuff to preserve it in some form and let it become a fish market, and in the very process ensured its demise. It is hard to build credible institutions, and if we build one, we have to fight like mad to preserve em, not let the politicos use these instis as their fiefdom and bestow one to every state at their whims and fancies....

But the IITs have completed the job they were assigned at that time very well. Today we have a vast pipeline of capable engineers in India and even graduates of 3rd tier schools in India make it to good programs in the US. Plus many are hired directly in India by the same corporations that hire from the US campuses. Now where is the harm if their mission is modified to help improve the value added by science and engineering programs in India?

vera_k wrote:But the IITs have completed the job they were assigned at that time very well.

Perhaps true. we dont know what Nehru had in mind when he set up the iits. whatever it was, it was worth the investment and for the first twenty years the system fought hard to stand on its legs and establish credibility. The next ten to fifteen were spent reaping the rewards. And then came the downslide, as one would expect with any organization that is not well nurtured. But we dont expect educational instis set up with such a massive cost to last only thirty to forty years of useful existence. (GoI really blew a ton of cash to the iits and it should rightly expect rewards back or expect to apportion the iit benefits on a piecemeal basis, but thats killing the golden goose, imho)

In some sense, the climb was steep which the system managed and had to throw it off cos people who were the stakeholders got too greedy and thought they could do what they did with their personal belongings: appropriate it to others.

Today we have a vast pipeline of capable engineers in India and even graduates of 3rd tier schools in India make it to good programs in the US.

Sure, i agree. The iit system was not meant to substitute India at large on an educational axis. It was just a shortcut and the most reliable source one would go to with zero to little info at that point. That is credibility. To de-democratize on educational matters seems utopian and socialist, but higher ed was never socialist, it was elitist.

Why do you think people flock to mit, stan, cal, berk etc? To get a good education, you must be dreaming. Whatever education you can get at these places, you can get with a good person elsewhere too. People dont flock to mit, stan etc because they can learn more or far better stuff than elsewhere, but because of the social network. You have better access to the political circle if you know xyz and xyz is often domiciled at mit, stan etc. That is the way it is. Elites rule the system, and you are better off you can co-habitate with them and pick their good traits as well as their non-scientific skills. The iit system seemed to be such an elitist society within India. Surely IISc is on a different pedestal, but that was not ugradish till of late. The elitist hanging spot for ugrads was iits, and it is NO longer the case. The jee is a cock-up of gigantic proportions and it is reflected in the cellphone in the ear generation that flocks to iits.

But in general, my point was just that it is hard to build brand names and institutions, but easy to tear em down. Like what happens with people crying sizzle or fizzle, what folks are doing are just throwing mud at the credibility of an institution based on a surface level understanding of the dynamics/politics with no idea about how hard people have fought to establish credibility or build foundations. And what is worse, the people who keep jumping up and down are at least on paper the least qualified to attack the credibility of an organization, esp stupid is the fact that Internets allow people to remain anonymous and make stupidass remarks and no way to punish people for becoming a first-rate ass, esp if proven that some remarks are based on mistakes in understanding and interpreting facts.

Now where is the harm if their mission is modified to help improve the value added by science and engineering programs in India?

Yes, boss. I would be as happy as you are if science n engg programs in India get a boost by folks staying back. Unfortunately that is being an optimist. Take a look, do writing programs help in S&T in India? On an individual level, it is a personal decision. But if you have an insti that is set up as a source of engineers and 99% of em end up going to be managers or software related people, what does it say about the "health" of the said insti? It says that the insti has become uni-dimensional and fast approaching the end of its useful life. Nothing to do with personal decisions, but how do you see the collective direction. You ideally want a healthy organization to have nuff representation in software industry, managers, brick & mortar engineering stuff, basic sciences, fundamental research in STEM, industrialists, even politicians, social rightists and human rightists etc. What is the right mix is subject to debate, but when you have what you have today, 99% ending up in iims or software, you know things are fubar. It is time to forget the iits and try to set up something new for fundamental research. Or at the very least boost capacity of Mtech and PhD programs in IITs and IISc, for that again grand investments have to be made. As I said, I feel zero sense of camaraderie for this generation of Kota/Ramaiah/fiitjee-waalon. But that may have to do with the changing value system rather than the state of iits per se, which may again be subject to personal debate.

^^Out and out impressive post and it captures all my grouses against our failure to develop elite institutions. Kudos Stan.

Stan_Savljevic wrote:.....

Very respectfully I will have to disagree with some of what you just posted.
(1) Standards of IITs came down in the 90's because of "democratization"

I think you are looking at a wrong cause and effect here. While it its true that a lot more people joined IIT for its brand name and the leg up it gave to their careers there is no evidence to suggest that people joining earlier were more enthusiastic about higher education and joined IIT only because it provided a conduit to the top programs in massaland. Rather, I would contend that because of the state of the Indian economy there were no compatible opportunities for the passouts in the Indian market at that time and many were thus forced to opt for higher education. Also there is no evidence to suggest that all IIT passouts after doing MS/PhD from massaland actually stuck to their line of work. In the 90's and 2000's the market in India improved and lot of IITian's and other engineering college passouts got jobs in India or did their MBA. BTW this point about IIT's producing people only interested in MBA giri or software is not unique to IIT. I know of some IIT grads who went on to do their PhDs from TFTA massa universities like MIT/Stanford/ityadi, in the stream that they got their undergrad degrees in, and are now quants on Wall Street !!!!

2).People dont flock to mit, stan etc because they can learn more or far better stuff than elsewhere, but because of the social network.

Exactly... For the same reason they also wish to do their undergrad programs from IIT because of the brand name and networking opportunities that come with it. If a larger cross-section of people today enter IIT's it will only in result in larger numbers of them being eligible for this "elite" tag. That this by itself will lead to a dilution of the brand name is stretching logic a bit too far. When the first 5 IIT's were set up the 50's and 60's they had no history and brandname. It was built up over course of time, especially by the extraordinary success that their passouts had in massaland. (BTW I am not even sure that the IIT's by themselves did a helluva lot of value addition to their passouts. I would rather apportion the cause of their success to the filtering that they did in taking in the best of the best into their institutions via IITJEE.) The next set of IIT passouts, especially from the new ones, may not have the massa playground so readily available to them to show their talent, what with the state of the economy and its long term prospects. These people may then actually be involved in the "task of nation building" that Nehru setup the IIT's for.

The problem with the IIT model is that over the early successful and elitist years ('70s to '90s) they oversold the brand image of the BTech program, without giving much thought to what next in the evolution of the institution. This only added to the craze of having one branded with a IIT degree from a 4 year stay, by the burgeoning middle class aspirants since the mid 90s and more so the last 10 years. I see this purely as an existential problem for the IITs due to a lack of vision on their part.

If the middle class from where the garbage inputs to IITs comes from these days, had an alternative to go to easily, be it foreign universities or Indian campuses of the branded foreign ones, it can kill or at least dilute the brand image of the IITs even further. IITs risk losing whatever brand image they have even further, by not having a larger vision and limiting themselves from early on as elitist factories for churning out only successful B.Techs.

If you are a serious researcher scientist or engineer why would you want to be associated with an IIT as a faculty, purely with the mission to churn out B.Techs. What is in it for you ? IITs are going extinct in the long run and will be just another of those undergraduate colleges, with no serious or reputable higher education program. The output will be a crap shot with a small fraction making it big, like from any regular university or 4 year college with a weak graduate program.

ps: There is an equivalent to the IIT model for the sciences in India. They were the Presidency Colleges of the big metros. They did and may still churn out good quality UGs, but is hardly known for anything substantial in research or for fundamental contributions with a few exceptions...some of the retired Calcutta Profs. But the current one in College Street has a diluted brand these days.