small nitpick.ramana wrote: And he is equating ISI (A military organization similar to MI6) with RAW (A civilian organization similar to CIA).........
) so what is it Pasha would want to talk to his counterpart in RAW ? Hain...in what other way could we have responded ? this is becoming 
only.You only display your ignorance when you say that..Among many other sources, just refer to Air Cmdr. Tufail's article in the Aeronaut blog (since reproduced in a number of places) about how they "expected" us to respond..negi wrote:Another misplaced analogy CIA and KGB were not sneaking in terrorists , nor were they triggering bomb blasts in the major cities of the adversary . Infact the whole RU-US cold war rivalry has been rather COLD when compared to Indo-Pak relations .
Pakistan (more importantly the PA) clearly misunderstood our likely response to a Kargil type situation
he makes the point that he was as ignorant as us when the kargil misadventure was planned.Btw who is Ignorant me or Air Cmdr. Tufail ?
Read the full account..What PA thought our responses would be...Assumptions that were wrong..negi wrote:^ I guess he is alluding to the fact that Air Cmde was ignorant about India's response which is pretty unusual ; else it is an open secret that PA did not take PAF into confidence while planning Kargil its not a news to me.
PML-N plans to file criminal case against Musharraf
The Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) party is planning to file a criminal case against former Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf, the Online news agency said. Sardar Zulifqar Khosa, advisor to Punjab chief minister, said on Thursday his party is consulting with senior lawyers to file a criminal or a civil case against former president Musharraf in the Supreme Court.
Ramana, talks dont mean we junk everything else we are doing..But the fact is that ISI/PA are the real policy makers in Pak - everyone else has a direct line of comms to them, barring us! I mentioned before the RAW-ISI comms during the Punjab crisis - how a very frank communication of our intent to carry on low grade bombings in Karachi/Lahore went a long way in them shutting off the tap for the Kahlistanis...ramana wrote:somnath its not a good idea wrt India and TSP. There are no checks and balances and strong possibilities for India being duped. US has multiple agencies and culture of cross checking. In Indian context it would be sacred poop or classified waste.
Is this Khosa related to the Attorney General of Pakistan, Sardar Latif Khosa ? The Attorney General has already said the Pakistani government will not be defending Musharraf and he was on his own.Anujan wrote:Nice little tamasha brewingPML-N plans to file criminal case against Musharraf
The Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) party is planning to file a criminal case against former Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf, the Online news agency said. Sardar Zulifqar Khosa, advisor to Punjab chief minister, said on Thursday his party is consulting with senior lawyers to file a criminal or a civil case against former president Musharraf in the Supreme Court.
Or is it just successful psyops?Rahul M wrote:he makes the point that he was as ignorant as us when the kargil misadventure was planned.Btw who is Ignorant me or Air Cmdr. Tufail ?
that is a telling admission.
I am not saying that at all..the point is not whether someone or the other in PA/PAF knew abt the operation - of course enough people did..The point is what were their assumptions relating to our likely response...Thats what is important to ascertain..Direct comms with them will enable us communicate exactly where our red lines are - the ISI gen will take it much more seriously when it comes from the RAW chief than he would to a second hand message from Gilani..Example of the Punjab case narrated above is pertinent!chetak wrote: As also for the Indians to have picked up if they had been looking in the right direction.
If now, many are claiming injured innocence, we would be foolish to take them at their word.
Kargil made India discuss Kashmire..!!"Yes, indeed, it was a big success because it had (an) impact even on the attitudes of the Indian side. How did we start discussing the Kashmir dispute? How was it that the Indians agreed that we will discuss Kashmir and there must be a negotiated settlement? Before this there was no such thing at all," Musharraf said in a TV interview
Bitter Pills In Kashmir
July 23, 2009: For the last three months, Pakistan has been conducting a military offensive against the Pakistani Taliban. The Taliban are losing, and the government is determined to keep at it until the Taliban is crushed. Pakistani commanders believe that may take until the end of the year. For the last four years, Pakistan has also been fighting al Qaeda, and its Pakistani allies. The terrorist attacks by these outfits resulted, as is usually the case, in more dead civilians than police or military casualties. This turned the population against the terrorists. The Taliban took a little longer to make themselves hated, but managed to accomplish that this year, as they openly terrorized civilians who were not considered "Islamic" enough.
But there is one group of terrorist organizations that has so far been untouched. These are the groups based in Pakistani Kashmir. In 1947, it was Pushtun tribesmen who invaded Kashmir and seized control of that portion of Kashmir that remains under Pakistani control. But the tribesmen had help from the Pakistani army and army intelligence, which still has, so to speak, a veto power over Islamic radicals in Pakistani Kashmir. There are terrorist training camps in Pakistani Kashmir, but not as many as were in Afghanistan. In fact, Kashmiri militants often sent some of their recruits for training in Afghan camps during the late 1990s. As a result of the working relationships established with al Qaeda during those visits, there probably are a lot of al Qaeda and Taliban personnel in Pakistani Kashmir. American Special Forces and CIA personnel are not allowed to roam freely in Pakistani Kashmir as they are in the rest of northern Pakistan. And the al Qaeda and Taliban have noted that these armed Americans, and the large rewards they offer, are making northern Pakistan a dangerous place for Taliban, and especially al Qaeda, members. So some of these terrorists have moved to Pakistani Kashmir to avoid some local chief deciding that the American rewards are too generous to pass up.
Taking the rest of Kashmir from India remains a popular goal in Pakistan. But now the Kashmiri terrorists have joined with the Taliban in fighting the Pakistani government. The Kashmiri terrorist groups (many of them officially outlawed, but still in business, at least in Pakistani Kashmir) deny taking sides, apparently aware that they could lose a lot of their popular support if they admitted working with al Qaeda and the Taliban. Many Pakistanis see through this, but the Kashmir terrorists remain national heroes. Perhaps not for long, as more and more suicide bombing attacks have been traced back to the Kashmiri groups, and it's only a matter of time before the Pakistani media decides that defending these terrorists is as unprofitable as it was earlier, when they praised the Taliban and al Qaeda. These chickens too, are coming home, to try and kill you.
Apparently in preparation for that, India and Pakistan have agreed to put aside the terrorism issue, in order to continue their peace negotiations. The Indians appear confident that Pakistan will soon be willing to move against the terrorist camps in the hills and forests of northern Kashmir. Bangladesh, the other major Moslem state in the region, is already active against the Kashmiri terrorists, who have been in Bangladesh for over a decade. But, like terrorists everywhere, these Pakistani terrorists have worn out their welcome. Destroying the Kashmiri terrorists will be painful for Pakistan, because it will mean giving up on using force (terrorism) to conquer southern Kashmir. That use of terrorism angered the Kashmiris, and made India more determined to hang on to its portion of Kashmir. The Kashmiri terrorists have now turned on the state that created and nurtured them, and that is the most bitter pill of all.
That's why the world should 'fear' Pakistan. It is not a normal nation-state. It is willing to go blind in both eyes for giving a black eye to India. Indian leaders who piously feel even now, after all that we have suffered, that some generosity to Pakistan will make the wayward brother return to sanity are grossly mistaken. Such beliefs will only bring more misery to India.IndraD wrote:Musharraf speaks from his Musharraf
Kargil made India discuss Kashmire..!!"Yes, indeed, it was a big success because it had (an) impact even on the attitudes of the Indian side. How did we start discussing the Kashmir dispute? How was it that the Indians agreed that we will discuss Kashmir and there must be a negotiated settlement? Before this there was no such thing at all," Musharraf said in a TV interview
He also accepted that forces from the Pakistani Army's Rawalpindi Corps and Force Command Northern Areas were involved in the Kargil Operation –
So he admits that an entire chapter of "in the line of phyrr" was a total lie. Is he also accusing Madam Mazari of peddling goat droppings in her book "separating fact from fiction" ? I wonder if the families of his men know that their sons died so cashmere issue could be raised in the international media. What about the denials that the dead were not Pakistani ? Does Mushy feel bad that they they were disowned by the Pakistanis and the Indians actually stepped in and gave them a honorable burial ?SSridhar wrote:More Kargil uvacha from MusharrafHe also accepted that forces from the Pakistani Army's Rawalpindi Corps and Force Command Northern Areas were involved in the Kargil Operation –
Rahul M wrote:chetak, it can't be so for the PAF. a politician and a career soldier, that too from a largely apolitical branch has different motives.
he/PAF had no cause to feign ignorance unless it was the truth.
On Jamaat-ud Dawa chief Hafiz Saeed being released by Lahore High Court, Qureshi attributed it to independence of judiciary.
"Judiciary is independent, as it is independent in India, it is independent in Pakistan," he said about the release of Saeed,
Qureshi, who was in Phuket to attend ASEAN Regional Forum Meeting, said the joint statement marks recognition by both the countries that they have common challenge (of terrorism) that needs to be resolved.
There was equivalence between KGB and CIA regarding their modus operandi in other countries. Neither the Soviet Union nor the USA needed to deny that they were involved in the subversion of the other. Neither the KGB nor CIA needed to deny over which groups they held influence. Most proxies were not afraid to openly accept support from any one of them. Often USA and Soviet Union said openly which group they supported. There were a few exceptions, of course. Neither the KGB nor the CIA needed to pretend that restraint was the better part of their valor. Restraint was something up for bargaining.somnath wrote:The KGB and CIA maintained contacts with each other even when the USSR and US were locked in an intractable conflict . In case of ISI, India has the advantage of then talking to the real policy makers directly, rather than to proxies, which is what the civvie establishment is..The fact is that all major powers maintain direct contact with PA and ISI, because they know that's where policy is made..WE on the other hand, have so much at stake there and have zero contact with ISI/PA..
somnath ji, perhaps you might like to offer some concrete examples ofsomnath wrote:RajeshA, conversations are not as simplistic as you put it..
We all know the intent, the objectives - and that is bleeding India by a thousand cuts, forcing India to make concessions through the use of violence, pushing terrorists into India at the borders by giving them fire cover, supplying all sorts of violent groups in India with weapons, attacking symbols of Indian pride and prestige, spoiling the economic climate in India through acts of terror, vagerah, vagerah. Would they be able to contribute to this knowledge?somnath wrote:A direct communication with ISI will enable us gauge their intent, threshold, objectives far better than either talking to proxies or from our own intel sources. It will also enable us communicate our intent and threshold directly to the policy makers..For example, Pakistan (more importantly the PA) clearly misunderstood our likely response to a Kargil type situation..A level of direct communication would give us the platform to directly tell them our red lines and our likely responses..Could have the benefit of preempting a lot of actions (and reactions)..This is rather simplistic, but there is never any harm in talking to the real policy makers..In an insurgency scenario for example, if there are talks, it is always advised that the govt talks to the guys who wield the gun, not their political proxies, as the guys with the gun can deliver...
The basis of their security is that India is not aware of their threshold. We do not know, when they will shoot all their nukes at us, and that is why we do not go to war, right away after every terrorist attack in India. That is how they would like to keep it. Why would anyone in the ISI reveal us that?I think hell-brooke should thank Baitullah Mehsud for waking up Paki army to fight Taliban, though it is a different matter that Pakis have fought only Bad taliban.US special envoy Richard Holbrooke on Thursday branded Baitullah Mehsud one of the most “odious and dangerous people” in the region, and said although the US had been slow in recognising his importance, the TTP chief’s elimination was “without a doubt” of strategic importance to Washington.
“I think Baitullah Mehsud is one of the most dangerous and odious people in the entire region and the US paid insufficient attention to him until very recently,” Holbrooke told journalists before leaving for Afghanistan at the end of two days of talks with the Pakistani leadership.
Under wraps
As we know, a tragic helicopter crash took place recently during the Swat military operation, killing 23 people on board. The report on the crash has just come out but it has been decided that it will not be released to the public. The reason for keeping it under wraps is that the reports shows that the crash took place because the helicopter was overloaded with men and materials. Will anyone be called to account for this criminal negligence?
Small talk
A fly on the wall of the Raiwind Palace outside Lahore informs us that when Hubby went to see The Man of Steel, they made small talk for quite a while to break the ice. The first topic under discussion was the merits of the various lentils cooked in different ways across the country. Hubby waxed eloquent about Sindhi dal with tarka while The Man of Steel spoke about the Punjabi penchant for moong and masoor. And so on ad infinitum. Then Hubby rolled out a beautiful Persian carpet and presented it as a gift to The Man of Steel. Thus progressed the courtesy call. And while the great leaders were at their pleasantries, the natter on the sidelines between their second tier leadership was all about Mush’s new pad in London and how he came by it. One Pipliya told his Leaguer counterpart that a Sheikh of Araby had presented Mush with his GBP 1.5 million London flat overlooking Hyde Park. The Leaguer retorted that mush had been looking for a London property for a while, and nearly bought one in Knightsbridge a year ago but then decided to wait. Either way, he’s ended up in the Mecca of all Pakistani exiles.
Singer goes religious
According to Jang another singer Ali Haider announced that he was leaving the profession of singing to go Rabb ki Janib (towards God). He appeared on the popular religious programme Alim on Line and said he was not getting peace of heart from singing and had, therefore, decided to leave it and turn to God. Another pop singer has already turned Maulvi. A number of cricketers have also made the spiritual journey towards him.
A list of Urdu platitudes
Writing in Jang, Hasan Nisar compiled a list of ‘meaningless, cheap, sentimental and false’ phrases used in Urdu: Seesa-pilai diwar (nation as a wall of lead), koi maili ankh (none dare look at us with a dirty eye), ahani haath (state’s iron hand), mashriqi iqdaar (our eastern values), munh tor jawab (we will give a jaw-breaking reply), and barabari ki satah (we will talk as equals), ijazat na dain gai (we will refuse sanction), sanjidgi se notice layn gai (will take serious note), ghayur bashayur (we are people of educationand honour), awam ki baladasti (people’s power), tazvirati gehrai (strategic depth), etc.
South Punjab and General Zia
Writing in Aajkal Mujahid Hussain stated that terrorism in southern Punjab was started by General Zia when he elevated a sectarian cleric Abdullah Ghazi of Dera Ghazi Khan to the Lal Masjid in Islamabad. On Ghazi’s request Zia spread a network of madrassas in southern Punjab with state grants and instructed embassies abroad to collect funds for Ghazi’s special envoys.
Marvi Memon is grateful
Daily Jinnah noted that the opposition PMLQ MNA Marvi Memon rang up the chief editor of the paper, Khushnood Ali Khan, to thank him for saying in his column that she was the rare MNA who came prepared to take part in the debate in the National Assembly.
God offended with Pakistan
Daily Jang reported TV personality Amir Liaquat Hussain as saying that by practising modern banking, poisoned with riba, Pakistan was at war with Allah. Because banking in Pakistan had deprived itself of the barkat of Allah, it was suffering. He said the Muslims of Pakistan should do collective tauba (ask pardon) before Allah.
Once a paki, always a (cyber) terrorist."Millions of Indian Net users are downloading computer malware while downloading Bollywood songs from popular Pakistani websites
More than 12 lakh Indian Net users access Pakistani websites that offer free downloads of Bollywood songs.
Websites like http://www.songs.pk, http://www.ansari420.com are very popular in India. They are extensively accessed for easy downloads of old and new Bollywood songs.
Many a times these during such downloads malware gets installed into the computer which comes as a 'backdoor' with the song," pointed out Ishant Saxena, a computer hardware expert.
"I am getting regular complaints about decreasing efficiency due to virus attack after downloads from a Pakistani website. Nowadays new virus and worms are detected while downloading songs from these websites, which could be just a dry run to manage a bigger attack. Instead of these existing less harmful virus, stuff like Botnet and Zoombe can easily fit into the Indian computers, which later on replicates and makes the entire server vulnerable," said Vivek Vohra, a Delhi-based cyber expert.
Same reason why hostage negotiators "agree" to discussing all options with morons wielding guns as long as those whackos let the women and children leave first.IndraD wrote:Musharraf speaks from his MusharrafHow was it that the Indians agreed that we will discuss Kashmir ...?
Moral of the day: Touch a paki, download a virus.AjayKK wrote:Once a paki, always a (cyber) terrorist.
Moral of the day: Touch a paki, download a virus.
Police have arrested an Indian national near the District Coordination Office in Bannu, while a bid to blow up the Maryan Police Station has been averted as huge quantity of explosives have been defused, DawnNews reported.
Police sources say the suspect, believed to be an Indian national, has been picked up under section 14 of the Foreign Act for travelling without valid documents.
Some sources, however, say that the man was arrested a few days back by the intelligence agencies and has now been handed over to the Cantt Police Station after investigation.
The man has identified himself as Binoraf Saleem Borhan Kirjee, claiming that he is a resident of Kanyanya Madhya Pradesh in India.
Sources added that the suspect has been shifted to an unknown location, but the local police are reluctant to confirm the arrest.
This is better than Amar Yusuf-Singh Levy.SSridhar wrote:TSP Police arrest Indian national, defuse 30 Kg explosivesBinoraf Saleem Borhan Kirjee, resident of Kanyanya Madhya Pradesh in India.
There exists a real possibility of a cornered General (retd) Pervez Musharraf attempting to drag the Pakistan Army into the current case in the Supreme Court to save his own skin, but he could end up doing even greater damage to himself.
A top lawyer, who remained closely associated with Musharraf and represented him in different cases in the past, confided to The News that Musharraf may take refuge under the institution of the Pakistan Army by arguing before the 14-member bench of the Supreme Court that the Nov 3rd 2007 emergency cum martial law was the consequence of his consultation with others including military top command.
Can Pakistanis actually kidnap some Indian, who perhaps wouldn't be missed so quickly, take him to Pakistan, and charge him with attempted terrorism?SSridhar wrote:TSP Police arrest Indian national, defuse 30 Kg explosivesBinoraf Saleem Borhan Kirjee, resident of Kanyanya Madhya Pradesh in India.
