Indian Military Aviation

[Gaur]

Netas using arms deals to settle scores: Barbora

This man surely has some guts.
He is surely going to face some heat for this.
If hope others would have half the guts he has.

[Kartik]

absolutely love the way AM Barbora makes his points. you need a maverick like him now and then to upset the apple carts.

absolutely ! this guy really speaks his mind and most of the time its what would be called unconventional because Indian generals tend to be so non-confrontational with the politicians in power..even in the past, regarding China, he's spoken with candour that is refreshing compared to the stuff some Army generals have said, who almost seem apologetic for China's antics !

[Prasad]

It needed somebody of this type to finally to do a show and tell. Finally somebody brings up the freakin farce that defence acquisitions have become. The entire army, navy, af brass probably feel the same too, with their utmost deference to the primacy of the civilian leadership in all matters.

[sivabala]

while Rustom is coming up, why there is no effort to integrate missiles similar to Helina on any of the larger Israeli UAVs?, all those terrorist camps in the PoK region could have been laid to rest. Is Uncle vetoing Israeli technology similar to filtering in its intelligence inputs to us on LeT to be devoid of ISI/Pak Army role?

DRDO and HAL are like water and oil. They never mix up.
Even our grandson may not see a HAL heli sporting DRDO's missile. HAL would be glad to import a missile from some other country and promptly name it with sanskrit name and port it with their heli and parrot it as their invention.

[putnanja]

IAF gets MoD’s nod to acquire a basic trainer

BANGALORE: The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has given the Indian Air Force (IAF), whose training fleet is presently in a squeeze, the go ahead to acquire, ‘off the shelf,’ 75 basic trainer aircraft.

The Ministry’s decision comes in response to an urgent call from the IAF for an ab initio trainer, who, after the grounding of their Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) designed and manufactured Hindustan Piston Trainer-32 (HPT-32) last August, were left without this class of an aircraft to train flight cadets.

Official sources confirmed that the IAF will shortly send out a request for proposal (RFP) to a number of basic turbo prop aircraft manufacturers including Embraer (for their Tucano), Pilatus (PC-21), Raytheon (T-6 Texan), Finmeccanica (M-311), Grob Aircraft (G-120TP) and Korea Aerospace Industries (KT-1) in an effort to choose an appropriate trainer.
...
...

[Vivek K]

What a culture - took 20 years to select the AJT which we do not want to issue follow-on orders to. Then fleet strength has been in decline with no one yelling from the rooftops regarding the importance of this to national security and defence particularly in light of aggressive posturing by China. Now the HPT-32 is "suddenly" un-flyable.

What is it that they say - " you can plan to fail or fail to plan". I don't for sure know which is better but in the case of planning to meet the Air Force's requirements, it seems to be a mix of both. This is a disgrace and disappointing.

[putnanja]

Air cleared on fly jab

New Delhi, Nov. 19: The defence ministry today got the vice chief of air staff, Air Marshal P.K. Barbora, to issue a clarification saying his comments on not inducting women as fighter pilots reflected his personal views and not the government’s.

“I would like to clarify that my remarks concerning ‘off-springs’ and ‘imposing some conditions’ were my own personal opinion and not that of the Indian Air Force or the ministry of defence,” Barbora said in a statement this evening.
..
...
Today, Barbora spoke of a “careful approach”. “Induction of women into actual combat is a tri-services issue and demands a careful orchestrated approach starting with grant of permanent commission to women,” he said in his statement.

“A step-by-step approach would be the preferred option in respect of employability of women in the defence forces. In not a distant future, we hope to see women pilots flying fighters in some form of combat roles,” he added.

The Air Marshal claimed he issued the statement today because his earlier comments had been misinterpreted.

“If I had hurt any groups’ sentiments, I would like to state that it was not with any malicious intentions of hurting anyone’s feelings or casting any aspersions on their ability,” Barbora added.

[skganji]

Politics and settling scores between politicians should be out of India's defense projects and deals. It is high time idiotic Indian politicians learn this simple lesson.
Air Marshall Barbora has is outspoken and it is good that he is asking these questions to the so called political class of India which is narrow minded and has no vision for the defense needs of the country.

[Surya]

might have been good for AM Barbora to also explain the poor planning on the IAFs part for the basic trainer.

In the meantime anyone who thinks we are even a regional power - HA

[Dmurphy]

IAF Vice Chief’s latest: Politics stalls defence purchases

New Delhi : Two days after he said women could be recruited as fighter pilots only if they did not become mothers till a certain age, Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal P K Barbora on Thursday took a swipe at the political class, saying politics over defence purchases impinged “very badly” on the country’s military requirements.

“As far as defence goes, we don’t even match up with Pakistan,” Barbora, while referring to Defence exports, told an aerospace seminar organised in New Delhi by the CII.

“The internal politics over the years is such that whatever defence requirements are cleared by the government, they are opposed by the opposition parties and the same happens when roles change and the opposition sits in government. That impinges very badly on our defence requirements.”

He asked the private defence industry to take note of the China example on reverse engineering of defence technologies. “Forget about ethics. China has done reverse engineering. Has anyone ever had the courage to ask China why are you doing it? No one cares a hoot. If you can’t do it yourself, you should know how to do reverse engineering.”

He took on the defence PSU sector, especially in the aviation industry, saying India does not even contribute to one percent of the global industry. He said Indian PSUs have remained happy manufacturing doors of Airbus aircraft while China has gone ahead and started mass producing commercial jets.

I don't know about you guys, but I just became his ultimate fan!

[Vivek K]

Politicians need to take their hands out of defence deals and let professionalism govern.

[nash]

me to ..

i think he have no problem of callling "spade a spade",it doesn't matter it is our enemy no.1 china

[ashthor]

Some one has to make a beginning. Lets hope others speak out too.

My first post.

[Dmurphy]

Some one has to make a beginning. Lets hope others speak out too.

Whine alert:

Now that its PK Barbora speaking, everybody agrees and jumps at him in glee. Had it been some mere mortal like me who had said "Indian PSUs have remained happy manufacturing doors of Airbus aircraft while China has gone ahead and started mass producing commercial jets.", I would have been butchered after being asked "What the h*** do you know about PSUs and their greatness?"

[Aditya_V]

Dmurphy-> thee point here is slso the fact that Politicians backed by the Infrastructure of Imports Arms lobby scuttle any effort to build quality stuff by PSU's.

e.g if DRDO wants to order some small component the Babbu backed by politician will sit on it for a year, this will delay the programme for years.

[vasu_ray]

nothing personal, so why don't the lead babus from PSUs speak up? isn't civil services more about leadership?

[Brando]

nothing personal, so why don't the lead babus from PSUs speak up? isn't civil services more about leadership?

There is a Japanese saying: "The nail that sticks out, gets hammered the most". This applies to bureaucrats as well.

[Dmurphy]

nothing personal, so why don't the lead babus from PSUs speak up? isn't civil services more about leadership?

There is a Japanese saying: "The nail that sticks out, gets hammered the most". This applies to bureaucrats as well.

Then what does one say about PSus like HAL wanting a finger in every pie? Like the ambitious dreams of manufacturing 197+ LUHs or the AJTs when they're struggling with a host of other projects. The babus also need to be rapped on the knuckles for staying in the hole as well.

[Brando]

HAL merely has ambitions that exceed its abilities. Evidently, the Indian military understands this quite well and thus their reticence to jump on the HAL bandwagon. As for the aspects of bureaucratic competency or lack thereof, those are matters that relate to the Indian psyche and culture and have to be discounted for while understanding domestic defense production and development.

[Kailash]

Amazing speech by the IAF vice chief. however,

1. I do not think the private sector in India has it in them reverse engineer the most advanced western equipment. It will be an uphill task to build the infrastructure and the techniques to say the least. IMHO, DRDO and PSUs are in a better position to do this work.
2. Everything is China is state owned. They have uber hackers and industrial espionage agents in every big (Aero) technology companies. An infrastructure that will take us a huge time to deploy and ultimately reap benefits.
3. China has potentially lost a lot of advanced products from the west due to embargoes and sanctions. They painstakingly built their reverse engineering skills over past several decades to compensate for that. Do we have the time to do this, without slowing down our modernizations?..... I mean we are blacklisting companies for bribes and unprofessional securing of deals, what if those companies decide not to sell stuff to India because we are just like the chinese?

His intent is 150% right. But this talk (just the reverse engineering part of it) should have been behind closed doors! He sure is going to face some heat!!

[sunny y]

IAF slams HAL, political interference in procurement, bats for private sector

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/11/ ... ce-in.html

This is Ajai Shukla's report. In this there is no mention of reverse engineering but amazing speech by Vice Chief.

I visited HAL a few days back. They are proud that they are making parts for Airbus. But a few days back, China produced the whole Airbus. We are happy producing a door here and something else there

My god tight slap there

The IAF deputy slammed the US for placing sanctions on India after the Pokhran nuclear tests. Holding France up as a model to follow, Air Marshall Barbora said, “France said that, by so and so year, we will go fully indigenous. And they did that. [After that] France blasted all the nuclear devices that they wanted in the Pacific Ocean and nobody could do anything, because they had indigenised [defence production].”

Man I wish he was our defence minister. Open declaration of his intentions.

[geeth]

>>>>I visited HAL a few days back. They are proud that they are making parts for Airbus. But a few days back, China produced the whole Airbus. We are happy producing a door here and something else there

And most probbably, that will be used to satisfy the offset clauses in defence deals!

[kapilrdave]

But this talk (just the reverse engineering part of it) should have been behind closed doors!

Surely this matter would have been discussed behind the doors hundreds of times - what use?

He sure is going to face some heat!!

Where are all the news channels? Guys, you have got someone worth to build sympathy for - atleast better then Salmans and Sanjays.
please please save this man before the world ends in 2012

[Dmurphy]

His intent is 150% right. But this talk (just the reverse engineering part of it) should have been behind closed doors! He sure is going to face some heat!!

That has probably been happening since more than a decade now. Hence the open talk.

[Nihat]

Ladakh-Nyoma Airstrip to be Expanded, Converted to Advanced Landing Ground

With the first successful landing of an AN-32 at Nyoma airstrip in eastern Ladakh, the IAF is all set to convert the Advanced Landing Ground (ALG) into a full-fledged airbase for fixed wing transport aircraft in the next couple of years.

The work on converting the Nyoma airstrip, just 23 km from Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China, into an airbase, where the AN-32s can be based and operated, had already begun, IAF officials said here Sunday. The ALG already operates helicopters from Nyoma, which is the third such ALG to come up in Ladakh region after Daulat Beg Oldi in northern Ladakh and Fuk Che in eastern Ladakh.

"Once the Nyoma airbase comes up, it will be the first operational transport airbase of the IAF in eastern Ladakh," the officials said. The IAF already has an airbase in Leh, which can operate all types of aircraft -- fighters, heavy lift and medium lift transport, apart from rotary wing. One more airstrip at Chushul is in the offing, though work on laying the compacted runway there is yet to begin, they said.

"Chushul is a futuristic proposition. As of now, the IAF does not feel the need to have the airstrip there. But it is certain on the IAF's radars," Air Force officials said. Chushul, incidentally is closer to the Pongang Tso lake in eastern Ladakh. India controls only one-third of the lake, while the rest is under Chinese control.

Apart from the new ALGs in Ladakh along the Chinese border, the government is also reviving around 20 helipads along the LAC in Arunachal Pradesh. But these helipads are coming up with help from the Home Ministry, Civil Aviation Ministry and the state government, apart from the Defence Ministry, the officials added.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4479

[Katare]

From Shukla's article.....

contrasted the private sector’s success in modernising more than 50 airbases, with HAL’s dismal export performance.

What did private sector do for mordanization (civil works?) and what are these mordanizations?

[Katare]

We are not trying for a monopoly: HAL chairman

HAL chairman Ashok Nayak said even though the Navratna PSU had embarked on a massive expansion plan, which would entail an investment of over Rs 25,000 crore over the next 10 years,

[rohitvats]

Ladakh-Nyoma Airstrip to be Expanded, Converted to Advanced Landing Ground

With the first successful landing of an AN-32 at Nyoma airstrip in eastern Ladakh, the IAF is all set to convert the Advanced Landing Ground (ALG) into a full-fledged airbase for fixed wing transport aircraft in the next couple of years.

The work on converting the Nyoma airstrip, just 23 km from Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China, into an airbase, where the AN-32s can be based and operated, had already begun, IAF officials said here Sunday. The ALG already operates helicopters from Nyoma, which is the third such ALG to come up in Ladakh region after Daulat Beg Oldi in northern Ladakh and Fuk Che in eastern Ladakh.

"Once the Nyoma airbase comes up, it will be the first operational transport airbase of the IAF in eastern Ladakh," the officials said. The IAF already has an airbase in Leh, which can operate all types of aircraft -- fighters, heavy lift and medium lift transport, apart from rotary wing. One more airstrip at Chushul is in the offing, though work on laying the compacted runway there is yet to begin, they said.

"Chushul is a futuristic proposition. As of now, the IAF does not feel the need to have the airstrip there. But it is certain on the IAF's radars," Air Force officials said. Chushul, incidentally is closer to the Pongang Tso lake in eastern Ladakh. India controls only one-third of the lake, while the rest is under Chinese control.

Apart from the new ALGs in Ladakh along the Chinese border, the government is also reviving around 20 helipads along the LAC in Arunachal Pradesh. But these helipads are coming up with help from the Home Ministry, Civil Aviation Ministry and the state government, apart from the Defence Ministry, the officials added.

That is very good news indeed. The Nyoma airfield can serve the Southern sections of Ladakh covering the vital Chusul-Dhemchok sector. But i'm not sure about the distance of the ALG from LAC. GE tells me that it should more than 35kms as the crow flies to the nearest alignment. As for the Chusul ALG/airstrip, it did exist in the past and iirc, it was made and used during the 1962 conflict. It's bang on the LAC opposite the Spanggur Gap, harldy ~5kms from LAC.

This is what this jingo wrote couple of moons ago:

Of these, DBO and Fukche are pretty close to LAC and with in artillery range. Nyoma is in the Indus Valley with Ladakh Mountains to its east. It is relatively better situated and with it being in the shadow of the mountains that much better protected. IMO, this is one candidate for upgrading to full fledged air base. It will serve the Central (Chusul) and Southern (Dhemchok) sector very well. Just imagine a fleet of C-17 and IL-76 disgorging men and materials in super quick time if panda does any mischief. As compared to PLA, we can do that far quickly

[sunilUpa]

X posting

Thales To Supply Indian AF Transportable Radars

Dubai - Thales has won a contract to supply the Indian Air Force 19 low-level transportable radar systems based on the Ground Smarter (GS) 100 sensor, the defense company announced at the air show here.

Thales will build six of the 19 radars at its Limours facility, southwest of Paris. Under a technology transfer agreement, its local partner Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL) will build the remaining 13 units in India, the French defense company said. No financial details were given.
Related Topics



Each low-level transportable radar system comprises the GS 100 radar, operational and communications shelters, an energy subsystem, mobility subsystem and quarters for personnel.

"This contract reinforces our position in the Indian region as a major supplier of air defense radars," said Richard Deakin, Thales senior vice president and head of the air systems division. "BEL is a leading supplier of defense electronics systems and subsystems and plays a leading role in a number of major Indian defense programs."

The GS 100, based on the SR3D radar platform, is a mobile, modular and multifunctional sensor designed to track complex target maneuvers at very low altitudes, Thales said.

The sensor can detect and track targets up to a range of 180 kilometers. The SR3D platform is also used in the Ground Master 400 long-range radar, launched into the market in 2007.

The international competition for the radar began in 2003.

[Kartik]

Jaguar DARIN III approved and order placed. Air International gave a few more details on what the upgrade will comprise of..the radome of the Jaguar IM will become standard, as a radar will be fitted. more good news is the upcoming first flight of the LCH, and I believe that the eight-ten weeks is a typo, should've been 8-10 days to make it 2 weeks.
link

HAL to invest Rs 25,000 cr in next 10 years

Pres Trust of India / Bangalore November 20, 2009, 17:02 IST

Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) plans to invest more than Rs 25,000 crore in the next 10 years on the back of a strong order pipeline and big ticket projects on the horizon. The company has an order book of more than Rs 60,000 crore, its Chairman Ashok Nayak said. "We have got a new order for upgrading the Jaguar once more. Fresh order for the IJT (Intermediate Jet Trainer) is imminent... It's under approval... May be Rs 6,000 crore additional order. Hawk ... Additional 57 -- 40 for IAF and 17 for the Navy -- they are trying to buy," he told reporters here today.

Nayak said HAL plans to invest Rs 25,000 crore, mainly through internal accruals. "We have some reserves. Some grant will be given to each project (by the government)," Nayak said. On how HAL would realise its aim of becoming a $6 billion company in 10 years, from being a $2 billion company now, he said that "big-ticket projects" of multi-role combat aircraft, fifth generation fighter aircraft, multi-role transport aircraft and regional transport aircraft are expected to take off in the coming years.

"So these things will bring the company to that level," he said. "We hope we can do lot more outsourcing. Infrastructure in the Indian private industry is also coming up. We would like to make use of that," he added. Nayak said HAL is in the process of signing an MoU with the National Aerospace Laboratories to manufacture 30-35 'Saras' multi-role light transport aircraft, designed and developed by the latter.He also said HAL has put on hold its plans to build an MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul) facility for aircraft here, because "the situation (market for such a business) has not revived for reconsideration".

Nayak said the light combat helicopter developed by HAL is all set for its maiden flight. "It is expected to fly pretty soon. Maybe a couple of weeks... Eight-ten weeks."

Nayak said 90 advanced light helicopters (Dhruv), developed and manufactured by HAL, are flying today and the company has received orders to deliver 160 more. On the cause of Dhruv helicopter crash in Ecuador last month, he said experts are expected to pinpoint the reason with the help of the crash data recorder in a week's time, though initial indication was that it happened due to the "sharp overmaneuvre" of the pilot.

[Cain Marko]

Jaguar DARIN III approved and order placed. Air International gave a few more details on what the upgrade will comprise of..the radome of the Jaguar IM will become standard, as a radar will be fitted. more good news is the upcoming first flight of the LCH, and I believe that the eight-ten weeks is a typo, should've been 8-10 days to make it 2 weeks.
link

Sweet. Kartik, any information re. how many jags will receive the Darin III upg? Are they expecting to build any new airframes?

CM.

[Rahul M]

kartik, could we have some details on the final composition of DARIN III upg ?
thx.

[SaiK]

so HAL taking all big ticket items in the future and leaving the piece meal projects to regulated private industries is the idea?

[Singha]

one problem with HAL is they want to corner all big deals and keep on expanding their order book without worrying about timely delivery of existing projects.

[Brando]

The most glaring problem with HAL it has no real domestic competitor. Fair and free competition breeds excellence. The Chinese have nearly 3 or 4 large aircraft companies comparable to HAL that compete for defense projects and development of new aircraft and that is a Communist state. India by comparison is a one horse town. Until another domestic player comes around that compete with HAL, there isn't going to be much improvement.

[krishnan]

The problem is multifold. What kind of competition does ISRO have? How come they are so successful? How come Navy has seen better success than the other two armed forces with respect to local products?

[Brando]

ISRO is "successful" because they set their set there are own benchmarks for their performance. Besides they are not manufacturers like HAL, they custom build everything. Manufacturing is a completely different ball game than one-off custom production that places like ISRO does. Unless there are consequences for failure there is no real incentive to succeed.

[vasu_ray]

wrt to basic trainers, whats the big difference between a HPT-32 and Hansa-4 from Taneja aerospace? why can't the latter with suitable modifications
become IAF's choice?

[Rahul M]

The most glaring problem with HAL it has no real domestic competitor. Fair and free competition breeds excellence. The Chinese have nearly 3 or 4 large aircraft companies comparable to HAL that compete for defense projects and development of new aircraft and that is a Communist state. India by comparison is a one horse town. Until another domestic player comes around that compete with HAL, there isn't going to be much improvement.

very very valid point. HAL has its fingers in too many pies.the continuing reports of skilled manpower shortage does nothing to improve confidence in its ability to step up in the way that is required. HAL's strengths are clearly rotorcraft and avionics and to some extent, jet engined fighters and trainers. GOI should split away the prop and civilian aircrafts section from HAL which clearly does not get enough attention from the management. or at least set up a joint holding with a pvt/foreign co for small to medium size civilian aircrafts for starters, something similar to the brahmos model.
the HPT-32 replacement for example was a perfect opportunity to get a pvt co like taneja or even mahindra up to speed on performance prop-trainers. looks like they will simply buy off the shelf.

china's license manufacturing of boeings which was prompted by demand from chinese airline companies, at that time Indian airline companies too had a similar high demand. all it needed was for GOI to play its hand right and coordinate efforts to get similar license manufacturing rights.

wrt to basic trainers, whats the big difference between a HPT-32 and Hansa-4 from Taneja aerospace? why can't the latter with suitable modifications
become IAF's choice?

hansa-4 is a 4 seater light commuter/flight trainer, not a high performance trainer like the tucano for example. modern trainers are turboprops which also have a more powerful engine, unlike the hansa or even the deepak, both of which are piston engined. the hansa is way too low powered to be an AF basic trainer, nor is it aerodynamically designed to be one.
remember that IAF pilots are divided into streams depending on their performance in this phase, i.e on the HPT-32. therefore the replacement too has to be able to perform tasks beyond just flying efficiently from point A to point B, which is what the Hansa is designed for.

[vasu_ray]

the HPT-32 replacement for example was a perfect opportunity to get a pvt co like taneja or even mahindra up to speed on performance prop-trainers. looks like they will simply buy off the shelf

thats the case

Still, the point is Hansa-4 has got a engine comparable in power to HPT-32 without any known problems, HPT-32 airframes can be used with them