A look back at the partition

[surinder]

A Sikhnee Called Fatima Bibi

http://www.sikhchic.com/partition/a_sik ... atima_bibi

[Prem]

A Sikhnee Called Fatima Bibi

http://www.sikhchic.com/partition/a_sik ... atima_bibi

My parents told many heart wrenching stories like this and i could see many of my uncle's/elder's face expressions hardning in seconds at the mention of 47. Our whole exteneded family moved out of Sialkot area at the time of partition. One of my Grandfather's brother made the mistake of trying to pick his fallen "Pugg" and was decapitated by the Muslim servant hiding behind the door. Different story that few of the relatives went back in September to take care of the unfinished business with the Maulvi . One of them is still alive and kicking in Delhi.

[ramana]

The British hands off approach ensured that such 'brave hearts' could do the evil deeds lurking in their hearts.


Please do think about what Jaswant Singh has said and see how we can negate the evil of Partition.

[Brad Goodman]

I had a very high regard for Jaswant Singh especially after reading Strobe Talbott's book but I am really not able to understand what he is trying to say with “ real renaissance of Islam " is it some kind of chanakiyan thing? Who the hell is wants to see renaissance of Islam what ever we have seen till now is enough.

[svinayak]

Who the hell is wants to see renaissance of Islam what ever we have seen till now is enough.

What he really meant was social engineering of Islam and culture which will be controlled from south asia.

[Prem]

I had a very high regard for Jaswant Singh especially after reading Strobe Talbott's book but I am really not able to understand what he is trying to say with “ real renaissance of Islam " is it some kind of chanakiyan thing? Who the hell is wants to see renaissance of Islam what ever we have seen till now is enough.

JS looses all the plot with his "rennaisance" hope and wish. He ought to know that Qaddoo cant become Tarbooz by adding sugar and crow dont become Swan by washing with Sau Munn Soap.

[ramana]

Its the hiving off of TSP from India that allowed the Salafi strain fo Islam to make headway in TSP. What he says is had the Partition not happened this might not be the future of Islam but under Indian influence. The Salafi school is a derivative school. Deobandi school is a primary school among the major schools of thought. By brining in Salafi ideas the TSP Deobandi had to become more hardline.


Try to read the message and not get turned off by the messenger or the superficial level of the message.

[surinder]

On this forum, as well in the real world, the real instigator of Partition is already well known. No need to point that out. But one thing is gradually becoming clear as I read more and more accounts of partition: The ethnic cleansing and the allied violence to achieve that goal was also a British idea. They knew that the idea of Pakistan cannot come to fruition if Hindus/Sikhs remain in Pakistan. They had to be ethnically cleansed, and gory dance of violence was a necessity. Just as they have carefully hidden their hand in the idea of Pakistaaan, they have also hidden their hand in the partition voilance.

To achieve their foothold in the greate game and oil and other assorted reasons, TSP had to be created. For TSp to be a viable state, certain conditions were a must. Some geographical areas had to brought into TSP, which was done by Maj. Brown, in his famous mutiny in Gilgit. British tried to get whole of Kashmir, although they did not succeed fully. Secondly, Hindus/Sikhs from areas in TSP had to be cleansed. This was an absolute necessity. Hindus/Sikhs, while being only 30% of the population, owned 80-90% of the property in paki Punjab. Cities like Lahore were 95% h/s dominated. Same was the case with rural areas. Hindus/Sikhs were also more educated and higher up in the civil & military hierarchies. Pakistan would be dead on arrival if 50% of its army, 75% of it beaurocray was Hindu/Sikh. If the propety & land continued to be in Hindu/Sikh lands, this was of no use to have Paakestan. They had to be eliminated.

The Britsih had fought 2 world wars. In each they raised million plus Indian army. On the eve of independence, the army was surprisingly missing. Where was that army? In all accounts of Partition, I keep hearing the refrain that the army did show up, but only to promptly pluck people to take them to India. The treatment of refugees in India was remarkably efficient and fair, an uncharacteristic trait, which aided in more coming in. Some acconts of partition eeriely talk of very quiety and passive British police sitting silently while the carnival of loot/plunder was going on. Some Hindus/Sikh made way to British manned police stations, and found them to be quiet and withdrawn and basically unhelpful. British had held very very tight control of any tendency to voilance and any accumulation of that capability. Their intelligence network, especially in the troublesom Punjab, was extensive and well proven. They cannot but have known about the ammunition, tools, training, planning, coordination that was being done many months or even years prior to partition. This was not petty voilance, it was at a very grand and very well coordinated level.

Narinder Sarila's book talks about how the British knew and coordianted the tribal lashkar attacks on Kashmir behind the scenes. The partition riots had a military quality to them, as Brihaspati once pointed out (quoting a publication).

Partition violance fits in the British way of things to the T---stay behind the scenes, invisible and unseen, and let others do the crime in the open; direct the crime and shape its contours so that it of strategic and tactical use to the British.

[Abhi_G]

http://bengalvoice.blogspot.com/
My people uprooted"saga of the Hindus of Eastern Bengal"

The topic is already very nearly forgotten. It would be completely so in another twenty years when the people, who saw it all happen, die away. I did not see it happen, but at some stage of my life formed an abiding interest in my roots, and therefore in the subject. The subject is the persecution, partly state-sponsored, qualifying as human rights violation, and the resultant exodus of Hindus from what was once known as Eastern Bengal. This ‘Eastern Bengal’ later came to be known as East Pakistan, and is now known as Bangladesh. This exodus began with the independence and the partition of India and that of the province of Bengal, became a flood during the East Pakistan days and continues, though to a lesser extent, to this day.

The stated purpose of this book is to put on record this major case of human rights violation ; and also to trigger further research on the subject ; and further to point out the extent to which it has been concealed. To restate the same on a different plane, the purpose is to tell the post-1960 generation of Bangladeshi Muslims on the one hand and of Indian Bengali Hindus with East Bengali roots on the other, what their ancestors did, the former to the latter, and how the latter swallowed and concealed it.

[ramana]

Surinder another nefarious scheme was the segregating the BIA into Muslim formations. If people(Hindu/Sikh/Muslim)are form one region, why were the units created that were Muslim majority ones? The H/S officers were moved out of the units to create sectarian units.

[Brad Goodman]

Who the hell is wants to see renaissance of Islam what ever we have seen till now is enough.

What he really meant was social engineering of Islam and culture which will be controlled from south asia.

Sorry Acharya Ji but my pea sized brain is not able to fathom your wisdom. Only social engineering we have seen till now is discussion about the length of beard & trousers. How many marriages how many stones to use to cleanup etc etc.
About culture lesser said the better

[Brad Goodman]

Its the hiving off of TSP from India that allowed the Salafi strain fo Islam to make headway in TSP. What he says is had the Partition not happened this might not be the future of Islam but under Indian influence. The Salafi school is a derivative school. Deobandi school is a primary school among the major schools of thought. By brining in Salafi ideas the TSP Deobandi had to become more hardline.


Try to read the message and not get turned off by the messenger or the superficial level of the message.

The only reason salafi thaought have not taken roots in India is because IM are scared of hindu majority and cannot openly follow the commandments in their hadits especially about dealing with kuffar. If we had a 50-50 ratio or anything in their favor we would have seen partition style violence every day

[surinder]

ramana, Sarila's book is merely a first look at the real culprit behind Partition. It is pretty damning, as it is. But as the story of partition is analyzed further, I actually feel that the followers of RoP were mere pawns in the game. They had to be given a bone, in this case the bone was H/S women & plush properties and lands. while they revelled in these goodies, British eyes were set on a larger agenda.

What is shocking is the sheer cold heartedness of the British in envisaging and implementing the idea of Paakistaan.

(Can we discuss Jaswant Singh in the thread dedicated to his book. This is a thread on partition, which is a much larger issue than JS & his views on Jinnah.)

[surinder]

My parents told many heart wrenching stories like this and i could see many of my uncle's/elder's face expressions hardning in seconds at the mention of 47. Our whole exteneded family moved out of Sialkot area at the time of partition. One of my Grandfather's brother made the mistake of trying to pick his fallen "Pugg" and was decapitated by the Muslim servant hiding behind the door. Different story that few of the relatives went back in September to take care of the unfinished business with the Maulvi . One of them is still alive and kicking in Delhi.

Prem,

I would request you to write that story in detail here. Also I am curious about that "unfinished business with the Maulvi". If you are do not wish to write here, you can write to my email address.

[svinayak]

Partition violance fits in the British way of things to the T---stay behind the scenes, invisible and unseen, and let others do the crime in the open; direct the crime and shape its contours so that it of strategic and tactical use to the British.

Most of the violence in the sub continent are similar even now. The Mumbai attack on Indian and attack on Indians in Afghanistan are similar. They know those attacks but stay behind the scenes, invisible and unseen, and let others do the crime in the open

[Prem]

My parents told many heart wrenching stories like this and i could see many of my uncle's/elder's face expressions hardning in seconds at the mention of 47. Our whole exteneded family moved out of Sialkot area at the time of partition. One of my Grandfather's brother made the mistake of trying to pick his fallen "Pugg" and was decapitated by the Muslim servant hiding behind the door. Different story that few of the relatives went back in September to take care of the unfinished business with the Maulvi . One of them is still alive and kicking in Delhi.

Prem,
I would request you to write that story in detail here. Also I am curious about that "unfinished business with the Maulvi". If you are do not wish to write here, you can write to my email address --- t a r t h a l l i attherateof hotmail bindi company.

Town, Village Maulvis were one of the organizers of mayhem.
Some day may be, as few years ago my elder cousin brother ( he is in late seventies) did pay the visit to the area and told few more stories. One of the old maulvis was still alive and repentant while younger generation has no recollection and happy with the loot. The goons are having hard time even maintaing the old properties as they have no sense of belonging, earning or keeping. No repainting , reparing or reconstruction of any sort and per him , all looked like old unkept monuments.

[SBajwa]

I took my mother to Paksitan in 2005, she left in 1947 from the village in district Virkgarh (now called Shaikhupura) on the army truck. The conversation went like

Question: "What happened to our Well?"
Answer: We filled it up

Question : "What happened to our garden?"
Answer : We tilled it down.

Question: "What happened to our house"
Answer : We used the bricks to make our own houses.

Question : What happend to our cremation place and Samadhis of our elders?
Answer : We tilled it down.

The Shaikhupura district is so backward that they still use cows/buffalos to walk on the cultivated wheat to separate it from the chaff., while in India current generation does not even know whether cows/buffalos could be used for this purpose.
I asked one of the person about number of tractors in the village and he replied "Two tractors with the house of Chaudhries".

Pakistan is a very gloomy place., 95% of people wear Brown or Sky blue color salwar kameez., and all women wear black. So you only see three colors and urdu everywhere (very very few signs in english). The sewer system runs through the middle of the road (instead of on both sides of the road) and thus it stinks a lot., with brackish/greenish sewer pond every couple of KMs (from Lahore to Shaikhupura and then to Gujranwala). You will also notice that lots of people spit phelgum every few minutes on street, scratching their privates, though they will squat to pee near a wall.

[ramana]

Pakistan is a very gloomy place., 95% of people wear Brown or Sky blue color salwar kameez., and all women wear black. So you only see three colors and urdu everywhere (very very few signs in english). The sewer system runs through the middle of the road (instead of on both sides of the road) and thus it stinks a lot., with brackish/greenish sewer pond every couple of KMs (from Lahore to Shaikhupura and then to Gujranwala). You will also notice that lots of people spit phelgum every few minutes on street, scratching their privates, though they will squat to pee near a wall.

No wonder the RAPE on Dish Network TV pretend to be living in a la la land cooking Continental and saying gratituously saying inshallah every other sentence.

[RamaY]

The only reason salafi thaought have not taken roots in India is because IM are scared of hindu majority and cannot openly follow the commandments in their hadits especially about dealing with kuffar. If we had a 50-50 ratio or anything in their favor we would have seen partition style violence every day

There was a study on the % of population and its behavior on the net somewhere. The study seems accurate if we compare it with current islamic nations.

[Atri]

Most of these things are known to members of this board. This is the gist of the arguments I have been putting forth on another board to make people understand the reasons behind partition. Very few people think from the perspective of great-game and pan-islamism, an understanding which is so elementarily seen in all the discussions of BRF. I have been propagating this line of thought on various boards. Please to read it and suggest additional points.

--------------------------------------------------------
Reasons of Partition

1. British interests - I will give these the prime importance over the Jinnah and ML.

2. The political aspect of Islam - The fact that Deen and Daulat cannot be segregated. That in sharia, fatwa, khilat, farman etc are not mere announcements, they are legal directives. And they are treated upon by the muslim masses as the same.

3. The concept of dar-ul-islam and the real-politik of mullahs and zamindars of upper gangetic plains.

1. It was in British interest to create a state which remains their perpetual "whore" so that they can maintain their strategic presence in middle-east and central asia vis-a-vis the "Great Game" with Russia. Without these interests, Pakistan won't exist then and now and in future. The geopolitical "JOB" of pakistan is to act as a rental state for the British Empire (and now USA, britain's political successor) and increasingly China. Pakistan also serves purpose that of Military arm of Saudi Arabia against Iran (and possibly Turkey in future). All these players (but prima-facie, the british) made sure that Pakistan exists in space and times, in spite of all odds (read desire of Hindus to unify India).

It is unbelievable for anyone that British empire which quelled 1857 war of independence in one year and quit-india movement of 1942 in six months were unable to "silence" the handful supporters of Muslim league and private armies of muslim zamindars. It shows their complicity.

2. The question is what made it so easy for British to "use" political Islam in India and middle east? If history of previous century is viewed some common-sense, it is seen that the political islam is used by the west (and now by china) to their interest. This was one of the major drives for British to jump in World-war 1.

Ottoman Turkey was defeated and Islamic influence on Suez, and middle east was overthrown. By 1935, the bedouine tribesman ibn saud (with help of British and USA) was established as king of Saudi Arabia. He was allowed to conquer the territories of Turkish empire and Yemen (which included Mecca and madina). And he was allowed to conquer the Persian gulf region (which has bulk of oil). The control of Mecca-Medina is the insurance of newly established "Saudi Arabia" against the ambitions of Persia.

Turkey became westernised. Jerusalem (Palestine) became British colony. Jews started pouring in there. This was facilitated by holocaust of hitler. In broad terms, all so called "islamic states" had a military leader (or monarch) in close association of Ulema which is controlled by British (now US and western) interests. Thus it is established that Ulema and Monarch and hence ordinary Abdul can be used for western interests.

Now, there are two ways to buy out Ulema. 1. to give them all the pleasures and continuous mollification of their Islamic ego and glorious past.
2. Make them insecure of a "Kaafir" majority which will threaten the existence of Islam.

In India, both of them were employed. Firstly, all the races which participated in crushing the independence war of 1857 were declared as Martial races. Secondly, entire religion of Islam was declared martial. It worked particularly well in Punjab and NWFP. It was buttressed by encouraging the Ulema (based in Upper Gangetic valley) to masturbate about glorious past and their 1000 year rule over weak Hindus.

It is interesting and this again proves the point that history is not only about facts, its also about how people choose to remember their past.

The Hindu population of Gangetic plains was deemed non-martial and effeminate (yes these are the words used by papers of royal society to describe Bengalis who comprised of the revolting Bengal army of 1857 which was later disbanded). The immediate example in front of the "officially martial" muslim zamindars and abduls were their Hindu neighbours who were deemed (officially, that is) effeminate and non-martial.

Here originates the popular image of coward Hindu Brahmin-Baniya which is still propagated in the mainstream media of Pakistan. One has to only search for youtube videos from paki news channels to understand why is it so easy to control political islam against a particular target.

One has to understand that just like communism, Islam aims for class-less and stateless society. Whereas, primary motivation of INC was primarily nationalistic, the primary motivation of Ulema and political Islam was re-establishment of socio-political supremacy of Islam in India. One has to stop looking at Islam as a Moksha-Maarga like Sankhya-Yoga-Vedanta-Shaiva-Vaishnava-Jaina-Bauddha. It is essentially a socio-political ideology with tinge of divinity in it. Another example of such ideology which is primarily socio-political but which uses God for mass-mobilization is Socialism of Gandhi and Vinoba Bhave.

Now there are two opinions and options over how to establish and Islamic state in India (subcontinent). One is to be a part of undivided India and then capture the power by all means (democratic, undemocratic, demographic, whatever) and declare India as Islamic state. OR to ask for a separate temporary Islamic state within India which will incubate the Islamic expansionist meme into rest of India.

When elections of 1937 showed clean sweep of INC even in Muslim majority provinces, it became clear that INC in general and the coterie around Gandhi was being groomed for eventual transfer of power. Many important people of INC who did not belong to Gandhian coterie were thrown out of power-struggle one by one. First to go was M.A. Jinnah, then SC.Bose and lastly VB Patel. Clearly, J.L.Nehru was the "Chosen One", not only of Gandhi but also of British.

MAJ happened to stray away into Muslim league under the brain-washing of Iqbal and muscle and funding of Muslim Satraps of Gangetic plains. SCB strayed away into wilderness (but not without shining brightly like a magnificent lightening in stormy night before going down). Patel, when thrown out of power-equation, was too old to go anywhere and do anything. He died within 3 years.

However, in spite of this apparent understanding which is clearly seen not only in actions of Gandhi-Nehru-Wavell and Mountbatten, but also the British policy makers of London, there was clearly some deal-breakers. Gandhi was not totally subservient to British manipulation. His decisions to resign from provincial governments in 1939, withdrawing support to British war effort in WW2 and Quit-India movement in 1942 taking advantage of British preoccupation in WW2 was an act of treachery (in eyes of British). From PoV of MKG, it was opportune time. All his competitors were out of business and equation. He was the undisputed emperor of entire INC and its struggle. There was no sharing of credit and power when India eventually became free. Gandhi could develop Free India according to his vision, now that all his opposing visions were either too weak or eliminated.

However, this is when MAJ offered the services of "political Islam" to British empire. British people, well aware of internal dissensions in weakened Indian society, took that help by MAJ and political Islam, either in desperation OR in cunningness (I am yet to form an opinion here). Perhaps both. What happened thereafter is well known. There was a meteoric rise of MAJ and ML. It should be understood that the partition of India is merely a political event. It is essentially a cultural and civilizational event. This again is best understood if one sees India as a Cultural state, instead of a Nation-state.

The idea of partition (Nazariya-e-Pakistan) is an ideology which aims and aimed at total and forcible disconnection and alienation from parent Indian culture and civilization. Hence the territory which is controlled by a power which believes in this alienation was fought for by both the sides. The initial efforts were for entire Indo-Gangetic plains to be a Muslim state. Then when it became clear that Hindu majority of Upper Gangetic basin won't be allowed to go away, they settled for Punjab and Bengal. NWFP was taken for granted, of course.

Later, during negotiations and most importantly riots when it became clear that even Punjab and Bengal will have to be partitioned as well, we got the current political map of Indian subcontinent. howmuchever gaffar khan wanted, NWFP was marked as partitioned India. There is context of "Strategic Depth" in military science. It refers to region of retreat and regroup and relaunch offence in case of initial defeats. Punjab is the strategic depth for army fighting in NWFP against CAR forces. Hence Punjab had to go as well. And Sindh provides sea access to Punjab and NWFP, hence part of Sindh and/or Baluchistan had to go. According to the declassified papers, this was the minimum requirement of British.

However, the pretext they used for partition was religion, so entire Sindh and bengal were brought into equation by ML. British had to agree, it was a case well fought by MAJ. However, in negotiations and riots, British were forced to partition Punjab and Bengal. Curiously, it was riots which sparked off negotiations. There was a huge Hindu population in Sindh. But it was not burning like Bengal and Punjab, hence no negotiations and entire Sindh went to Pakistan. Sindh should have been partitioned too, like Punjab and Bengal. It is the people who indulged in riots forced policy makers to take their notice and redraw. It was the butchers of Kolkata which saved Kolkata from going to Pakistan. Gopal Pantha, the Butcher was the local Hindu Goonda of Kolkata who became quite popular (or infamous) for his terror.

Thus, it is understood that partition is not a process which happened on 14th august1947. It simply fructified on that day. It was a long fought battle primarily by nationalists who were mostly hindus. I am not discrediting the support of countless muslims who contributed towards freedom struggle in their individual capacity as a part of INC OR some other organization. They are my and our forefathers to whom we are eternally indebted to. However the institution of Ulema had the vision of Dar-al-Islam while supporting OR opposing partition. This FACT has to be considered and remembered. Their difference in opinion about the nature and extent of dar-al-islam in given space and time led to their different actions which are naively considered as signs of nationalism today.

These are not the signs of nationalistic ideology of those institutions since nationalism is fundamentally against principles of Islam. And when Muslims are in minority, the strict adherence to principles of Islam by ordinary abduls is fervently invoked by Ulema always and everywhere. These are the factors which enabled British to use political Islam to divide India. Once created, these factors were used by British and USA to keep that elite class (which was and is rabidly Anglicised but hates Hindus to their core) is kept in power of Pakistan's polity and ISI-Military complex. This explains the acceptance of "pork-eating whiskey drinking" Jinnah by ML. This explains acceptance of whiskey-drinking anglicised commanders who continue to be enjoy power by western support and acceptance of local public.

Ulema ignores the vices of leader (even if unislamic) for greater good. Almost all the "Ghazis" and champions of Islam in medieval India were exactly like these "Whiskey drinking" commanders of Pakistan.This elite class continues to quell internal dissensions by bogey of impending Hindu invasion and danger that Islam will be in.

There is popular trend in many deshi intellectuals to pass off Deoband as nationalistic organization simply because they opposed partition of India.

The argument of Maulana AH Madani was based on Medina Charter. Hence let me put these two things in perspective.

1. Madani was gleeful that owing to defeat of Dara, Islam and Muslims both stayed in India. This clearly shows his puritanical preferences towards Islam, apart from the obvious conclusions.

2. Lets study the Medina Charter itelf - http://www.constitution.org/cons/medina/con_medina.htm

All the clauses of the charter are made for believers and Non-believers who ave accepted the status of Dhimmi. Thus, acceptance of Dhimmi status by unbelievers (including people of book) is essential for implementation of Medina Charter.

3. What happened to this charter after Battle of Badr and subsequent conquest of Mecca and establishment of Islamic state under prophet himself is matter of independent study.

4. In his book "Composite Nationalism and Islam" chapter 17 "Fear of European Nationalism and Patriotism", Maulana Madani clearly states out his reservations regarding acceptance of european idea of "nation-state" and how it is fundamentally against "Universal Characteristic of Islam".

5. I found his concept of "Qaum" and "Qaumiyat" vaguely similar to Indian concept of Rashtra and Sanskriti in the fact that he too emphasizes on continuity of Islam throughout the lands just like proponents of Rashtra and Sanskriti concepts talk about continuity of Sanskriti. The European idea of "Nation-state" according to him brings in concept of narrow "patriotism" which forces a Muslim to choose between allegiance between believer on "other side" and unbeliever on his side. This again goes against the soul of "medina charter" which is somehow bypassed (IMO) by Maulana in his book.

6. This is the fundamental mismatch of choice which is put-forth by Maulana as one of his chief arguments against partition - To avoid putting Indian muslims to make such choice. In other words, to avoid the split in Muslim electorate which had a chance (in his judgement) to reclaim its rightful position of (rulers of India) in short time if India is undivided. Thus the fear of ML (of loosing Islamic identity in wake of Hindu majority) was baseless in Maulana's opinion.

Hence, how justified is it to call an institution, an ideology and a man (or group of men) who refuse to believe in concept of nation as nationalists?

[Karna_A]

1. It was in British interest to create a state which remains their perpetual "whore" so that they can maintain their strategic presence in middle-east and central asia vis-a-vis the "Great Game" with Russia. Without these interests, Pakistan won't exist then and now and in future. The geopolitical "JOB" of pakistan is to act as a rental state for the British Empire (and now USA, britain's political successor) and increasingly China. Pakistan also serves purpose that of Military arm of Saudi Arabia against Iran (and possibly Turkey in future). All these players (but prima-facie, the british) made sure that Pakistan exists in space and times, in spite of all odds (read desire of Hindus to unify India).

Jinnah was in secret communication with Churchill
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0805/110.html

The letters reveal Jinnah saw Churchill as an ally against caste Hindus

Churchill had to hide behind a skirt to talk with Jinnah secretly.
http://oakblue.wordpress.com/2009/08/19 ... -of-india/

Sir Martin Gilbert, the British biographer of Winston Churchill revealed that Churchill had asked Jinnah to dispatch secret letters to him by addressing them to a lady, Elizabeth Giliat, who had been Churchill’s secretary. This secret interaction continued for years. Jinnah’s key decisions between 1940 and 1946, including the demand for Pakistan in 1940, were taken after getting the nod from Churchill or Lord Linlithgow and Wavell, both Churchill’s admirers.

[Frederic]

Most of these things are known to members of this board. This is the gist of the arguments I have been putting forth on another board to make people understand the reasons behind partition. Very few people think from the perspective of great-game and pan-islamism, an understanding which is so elementarily seen in all the discussions of BRF. I have been propagating this line of thought on various boards. Please to read it and suggest additional points.
....

Hence, how justified is it to call an institution, an ideology and a man (or group of men) who refuse to believe in concept of nation as nationalists?

Atri!

That's a keeper (and an eye opener). Bravo.

Best Regards
Fred

[svinayak]

]

Most of these things are known to members of this board. This is the gist of the arguments I have been putting forth on another board to make people understand the reasons behind partition. Very few people think from the perspective of great-game and pan-islamism, an understanding which is so elementarily seen in all the discussions of BRF. I have been propagating this line of thought on various boards. Please to read it and suggest additional points.
....

Hence, how justified is it to call an institution, an ideology and a man (or group of men) who refuse to believe in concept of nation as nationalists?

Put some links and resource to your excellent post
Always talk about Lord Curzon and great game

http://revcom.us/a/089/iran-en.html
http://www.adam-matthew-publications.co ... x?h=curzon
http://www.shvoong.com/humanities/histo ... old-story/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cur ... _Kedleston

[Anindya]

It was the butchers of Kolkata which saved Kolkata from going to Pakistan. Gopal Butcher was the local Hindu Goonda of Kolkata who became quite popular (or infamous) for his terror

Thank you bringing this up - most Indian youth of today and certainly most young Bengalis do not know, what our parents and grand-parents had to go through in 1946, in the Great Calcutta Killings and how Calcutta was eventually saved.

[AjayKK]

Atri, good post.

Curiously, it was riots which sparked off negotiations. There was a huge Hindu population in Sindh. But it was not burning like Bengal and Punjab, hence no negotiations and entire Sindh went to Pakistan. Sindh should have been partitioned too, like Punjab and Bengal. It is the people who indulged in riots forced policy makers to take their notice and redraw.

The answer to this is that even after the British partitioned Bombay Presidency to carve out a separate Sindh province, the pervasive influence and fame of Gandhi and the Congress in the region did not decrease. While Hindus were systematically targeted by Islamic terrorists in the name of Islam (Pir Pagara is one example), the pacifist approach advocated by Gandhi lulled the people into a false sense of belief and trust.

Even *after* the announcement of the Partition in June 1947, there are instances of the Congress leaders pacifying the population to stay wherever they were. In a particular incident mentioned, a Cong. chor leader transferred all his wealth and sold of his property between June 1947 August 1947 and settled himself in Ahmadabad, all the while advocating the above “peaceful” approach advocated by Gandhi. If there was one person who was responsible for the situation, he clearly did not feel so all the while testing his “vows of renunciation”. Hence your view that "It is the people who indulged in riots forced policy makers to take their notice and redraw" is absolutely correct and is relevant for all times. Peaceful coexistence and "soft power" can only come from use of hard power to assert your land, culture and history. All the money and all the land cannot buy immunity from a dogma which uses hard power to cleanse you out of your land, rewrites your history and introduces its own "cult behaviour" in place of your nativeculture.

Surinder, I agree with all of your post except this:

The treatment of refugees in India was remarkably efficient and fair, an uncharacteristic trait, which aided in more coming in.

One of the well written books on the subject of people being forced from one part of their motherland to another (calling them refugees would be an insult IMHO) due to the violence of the Partition is :

Sindhi Reflections - 140 HINDU Lives and the Indian Partition.

The author has covered the subject in detail, she is not pseudosecular and calls things as they were. History should be covered as it ocured, however our secular history whitewashes the stuff that happened. Thankfully the author does a good job with the book.

The link to the book and author:

http://sindhireflections.blogspot.com/2 ... tions.html


(One might want contact her to post here if there is immunity from the Chankian Pink Chaddi Secularists Brigade )

[AjayKK]

The only reason salafi thaought have not taken roots in India is because IM are scared of hindu majority and cannot openly follow the commandments in their hadits especially about dealing with kuffar. If we had a 50-50 ratio or anything in their favor we would have seen partition style violence every day

There was a study on the % of population and its behavior on the net somewhere. The study seems accurate if we compare it with current islamic nations.

Apologies, no link. Here its is:

When Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be
regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone:

United States -- 1.0%
Australia -- 1.5%
Canada -- 1.9%
China -- 1%-2%
Italy -- 1.5%
Norway -- 1.8%*

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and
disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street
gangs:

Denmark -- 2%
Germany -- 3.7%
United Kingdom -- 2.7%
Spain -- 4%
Thailand -- 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their
percentage of the population.
They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards)
food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase
pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with
threats for failure to comply. At this point, they will work to get the
ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic
Law.

France -- 8%
Philippines -- 5%
Sweden -- 5%
Switzerland -- 4.3%
The Netherlands -- 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- 5.8%

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as
a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris -- car-burnings) . Any
non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (
Amsterdam -- Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana -- 10%
India -- 13.4%
Israel -- 16%
Kenya -- 10%
Russia -- 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations,
sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:

Ethiopia -- 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and
ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia -- 40%
Chad -- 53.1%
Lebanon -- 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other
religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a
weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania -- 70%
Malaysia -- 60.4%
Qatar -- 77.5%
Sudan -- 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh -- 83%
Egypt -- 90%
Gaza -- 98.7%
Indonesia -- 86.1%
Iran -- 98%
Iraq -- 97%
Jordan -- 92%
Morocco -- 98.7%
Pakistan -- 97%
Palestine -- 99%
Syria -- 90%
Tajikistan -- 90%
Turkey -- 99.8%


100% will usher in the peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- 100%
Saudi Arabia -- 100%
Somalia -- 100%
Yemen -- 99.9%

Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then
start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

[ShauryaT]

http://sindhireflections.blogspot.com/2 ... tions.html


(One might want contact her to post here if there is immunity from the Chankian Pink Chaddi Secularists Brigade )

AjayKK: Thank you very much for posting this. I am one of those, who always wanted to do the exact same thing this author has done. Document the stories of the partition time of Sindhis, especially in Mumbai, being raised there and a Hindu Sindhi myself. But like many others, with good intentions, life takes over and never made it a priority. Thanks again.

[RamaY]

Thank you AjayKK garu.

I hope the nations with <5% populations understand the trend and take precautionary measures.

There are a few of them in SEA.

[jambudvipa]

Ramay ji ,the nations which have % below 5% will take care of their minority issues.Already the slient majority in these countries is turning vocal agaisnt appeasing politicians.
In UK on my interactions with amgo junta their dislike comes out after not so subtle probing.What I am worried about is India.The vast majority of educated people are dulled into this feeling of complacency and unreality by decades of secularits brainwashing.We might have to take some heavy blows before our society wakes up.

In Nathuram Godses book,he mentions that when he was jailed for killing Gandhi,his jailor was a punjabi who had lost all in partition.The jailor clearly expresses that he had done the right thing.(on an unrelated note: Gopal Godse,his brother was a friend of my grandfather).

[RamaY]

Jambudwipa ji

I wonder what our Sociopolitical Maven, Garica Dutta, would say about that association

I agree. India must worry about India for now. I am talking about the ASEAN nations which can be brought into Indian civilizational influence for greater influence (internally and externally).

If our resident-doc Shiv-ji is right about the mercantilist and dhimmi attitude of Indian population, even nationalists too can coarse them to comply.

[Brad Goodman]

AjayKK your analysis was top notch. You have backed our line of thinking with perfect data. Now every one on the forum can make sense of the statements made by Jaswant Singh on how partition hindered the “ real renaissance of Islam ". With population of 30 crores we would have been an inferno of violence.

We need to give Jaswant a one way ticket to lands of 100% pure population. Any ways he had a big fantasy of going to Kandahar to meet the talebunny leaders and hand over Azar himself.

[brihaspati]

India's educated are also a minority. The problem will increase if ongoing educational efforts bring a larger proportion of the next generations into the "national whitewashing" programme. They key may be to push also for opening up the internet and getting greater access to the web. Of course this will immediately start off efforts from the Centre-Left to gag the web. However, a great deal of alternative versions will filter through.

The Partition has to be reversed. People think "revenge" is bad. However, what appears as revenge in personal life, is no longer a revenge in the national context. In the national context, it is a strategic step to enter into the log bokk of history that geniocides, culture erasures of the order perpetrated under Islam on the subcontinent will have consequences for the beneficiaries of those genocides in the future - a formidable lesson in history.

It is important to rollback the legacy of the progress of the Islamist armies on India, and roll back the civilizational effects of those marauders. This is why those who criticize JSji for his aspirations about "lost opportunities" should rethink their criticism. On the other hand those who applaud his logic and justifications about a "renaissance" should similarly stop and think. You can "renew/revive" - do a renaissance - only if there were anything to "revive". What he perhaps meant - was a reformulation and redefinition of Islam - which of course he cannot spell out.

But even that pious aspiration can now only take place under the shadow of the "shamsher". The steps by which India landed up into the current impasse over activities sourced from the Paki Occupied Western India, have to be retraced - without the rape, enslavement, and murder of children that was compulsory in Islamic victories. Everything else should be perfectly adoptable - and I can see any number of forms under which they can be carried out in situations of war. Many of us believe in perfect balancing of karma. Moreover, other people cannot dispose of our own karma or sufferings. So the Congress leadrship under JLN had no right to barter away the shame and blood of millions of non-Muslims. Most Sikh and Hindu families whose ancestors suffered in 47, should keep this alive as a fundamental part of their tradition and handed down over generations until the full debt is paid off. Moreover do not think of those who have somehow protected the beneficiaries of Partition genocides - ideologically, militarily, economically as belonging to your tradition or to India. They are as much an "occupation force" as the Pakis - even if they share birth origins in families or cultures similar to yours.

Partition of 47 remains an unsolved problem, without solving which India can never properly stand on its own feet. Now or in the future, Indian generations will have to solve this, and probably by force.

Those who are thinking that we were saved by the Partition are wrong. In competition with a mjority non-Muslim population, the Islamics would have had to change their growth tactic. They could not grow as fast as they have done with a dedicated Islamic rashtra. JLN would not see advantages in siding with the Muslims under that setup. The Brits and the west would not be able to have such a field day in encouraging Jihadis as they could do in their garden - of Pak. There would be opportunities for those born into Islam but willing to explore the outside world - to try and come out.

Contrary to JSji, I would see a much reduced and tamed Islam, if it was all together. Now we will ahve to do the reversal the much harder way - for Partition has allowed them to plan out their exapnsion plans from a base of their own. The ventuality is tsill the same - and Partition has not protected us in any way, rather intensified the potential violence.

[jambudvipa]

Bji,I agree with your analysis.What we have ended up with POWI is a modern day version of the mediveal sultanates which were the blight of India.A dagger pointed straight at our heart.It keep arming itself,all ills are blamed on India and the impoverished population eager to go on a jihad.
Even with a population of the minority crossing 30 crores, unfied India would still have the strength to crush any insurrection.We would not have been left with this ambiguity and the senseless massacre of millions of hindus/sikhs.
Only an "akhand bharat" can realise its true potential.

[Brad Goodman]

Bji,I agree with your analysis.What we have ended up with POWI is a modern day version of the mediveal sultanates which were the blight of India.A dagger pointed straight at our heart.It keep arming itself,all ills are blamed on India and the impoverished population eager to go on a jihad.
Even with a population of the minority crossing 30 crores, unfied India would still have the strength to crush any insurrection.We would not have been left with this ambiguity and the senseless massacre of millions of hindus/sikhs.
Only an "akhand bharat" can realise its true potential.

I have a question with a minority population of India in range of 30 crores how could we have become strong? I mean how many hindu / sikh / parsee/ jews/ christians have died in post 1947 India under the pretex of koran and shariah law? The only reason being 80% vs 13% logic now if you raise stakes to 60% vs 40% you do not need to imagine our friend AjayKK has provided us with real data to see the carnage that would have been unleashed.

Gangrine if kept in exptremities can be bad but having it in internal organs will just kill you.

[jambudvipa]

If you have a hostile and aggressive minority which does not make any secret about its intentions,it does not take any time for the majority to wake up and take corrective actions.
Irrespective of the percentages,the most dangerous thing is ambiguity of purpose,which currently exists in the Indian (elite) mind.This induces a state of mental paralysis which no amount of numerical superiority will cure.
why are we so scared of the % of minorities? was there not extreme blodshed of hindus/sikhs in 47? Do you think we got off cheaply by a bloody bifurcation?
At least with a united India,any insurrection would have been ruthlessly put down as there would have been a clarity of thought.
Hiving off a significant portion of your landmass and leaving your people to die is not a strategy,it is a mistake of great proportions.

[Abhi_G]

http://bengalvoice.blogspot.com/2008/05 ... lings.html
PUSH COMES TO SHOVE : THE KILLINGS OF 1950, AND THE NEHRU-LIAQUAT PACT

Ashok Mitra, ICS and pink, is a lot more charitable. While admitting that he came to appreciate Patel immensely upon observing his performance as the Union Home Minister, and observing that India's internal administration would have been much more firm and focused, he still insists that Patel was a man of limited capabilities. He did not have the quality that Nehru had, of being a helmsman acceptable to all and sundry[xliii]. But in the end he concurs in all that has been said about Nehru by the others. He particularly mentions the defeat of the Congress in a by-election in Calcutta in 1949 at the hands of Sarat Bose. According to Mitra this defeat made Nehru lose his balance completely and he declared that Calcutta and West Bengal were both plagued by factionalism and intrigue, and Dr. B.C.Roy was unequal to the situation. A defeat in a by-election, and that too at the hands of a stalwart like Sarat Bose, according to Mitra, should not have unnerved Nehru so badly, but it did! This also reminded Mitra of the childish state to which he had been reduced upon not being able to control the riots at Delhi, which was taken full advantage of by Mountbatten who acted like the boss after India had won its independence[xliv].

Those who lived close to the border walked down from their villages and crossed on foot. In the process many were looted and left with nothing except the clothes on their backs. Innumerable women were snatched away by roving Muslim gangs of whom a mention has already been made. Uniformed East Pakistani civil defence personnel, known as Ansars, participated in this looting and snatching of women. Malakshmi and Rajlakshmi Pal, two young sisters, were trying to cross the border on foot, and met fate such as described above. An account of their misfortune, as made in a statement they later made to Ananda Bazar Patrika is as follows : “ Just when we were about to cross the border we were accosted by four men who started asking us questions and then forced us to accompany them. They then told us to give everything that we had on us. We gave them Ten Rupees (a very large sum in those days). But they did not let us go. They first forcibly stripped us, squeezed our breasts, touched us between the legs, and finally raped us”[xiv].

Dr. B.C.Roy made a statement on April 2, 1950 that in East Bengal non-Muslims were being forced to observe Islamic rites. Hundreds of Hindus were killed, their houses set on fire, their crops destroyed, and of course, their womenfolk taken away. Thousands were made to convert to Islam. Ananda Bazar Patrika of April 3 reported that widespread torching and looting of Hindus had taken place in Khulna. At the Benapol border between Khulna and Calcutta two unmarried girls called Meera and Dheera, and a married woman called Bakulrani Mitra were snatched away while they were on their way to India[xv].

As mentioned earlier, trains going towards India, or otherwise carrying a large number of Hindus were a particular target of the roving loot-murder-and-rape gangs, including the Ansars. A train was found to have steamed into a border station in India with a few of the compartments empty, except for a few bloodstained dhotis, saris and broken conchshell bangles that Bengali Hindu married women wear on their wrists[xvi]. Benapol, the last East Pakistani station between Khulna and Calcutta was a favourite haunt of these gangs.

[brihaspati]

Well, we can look at the ratios again in another direction. Compares the Islamic growth ratios in India and the two segments theat went out to have a pure land. The lower proportions in India is to an extent an indicator of what it would have been.

Remember we are talking "if Patition" was not carried out. If it was actually not carried out, the Sikhs would still be holding a much larger territory than they are now. Similarly Bengali Hindus would be holding amuch greater proportion of land. It would have been one country - where other non-Muslim Indians would have had the opportunity to penetrate in these regions. More of non-Muslims would have survived in the now pure-lands. More Sikh and Hindu women would have been available to carry on their faith lines than enriching the Islamic numbers.

If you calmly calculate and assort all the factors you can see, that the potential for Islamic growth would have been much less. Moreover the faith would not have been able to sustain its covert characteristics in such overt forms. Those are pressures that change and have tremndous impact. In India in fact the process of de-Islamization was only slowed or reversed with active help from the Centre-Left. Even now if the rashtra stopped protecting the only special status minority faith (it basically protects only one faith leaving the more capable other to do its own work) through a kind of modern jazyia - the numbers would decrease. For it would not pay to be a Muslim in such a scenario.

[surinder]

Dear B,

You have said many very deep and refreshing things. I will post later on them. Just a few I wish to comment on:

India is a nation will never ever amount to anything but a has-been until the partition is reversed and reversed on *Indian Terms*. This is not just a desirable course of action, but an absolute necessity. The whole phenomena, the idea has to be junked, massive chunks of territory freed. The sacrifice that will be endured is obviously non-trivial. The cost would have been much less, had India been guided be proper leaders in decades preceeding partition. The Ahimsic philosophy has caused more hinsa to descend on on us, not less. As a Sikh saint once pointed out: The armies of Prithvi Raj Chauhan tried to save a few cows in battle with Ghori, but we got millions of cows to be slaughtered as a result.

Most Sikh and Hindu families whose ancestors suffered in 47, should keep this alive as a fundamental part of their tradition and handed down over generations until the full debt is paid off.

Read Urvashi Butalia's book on Partition and the Silence associated with it. The events of 47 were traumatic, too traumatic to automatically recall and preserve them, especially in a society that does not even bother to show the least amount of curiousity in those events (because their province was not partitioned). There are no monuments to partition, there was no white papter on partition by GOI, the talkative JLN went silent on what really happened, the 'experiments with truth' MKG never bothered to speak out about behind the scenes conversation which would have allowed us to join the points and find out the truth. If you from a province that did not suffer partition, all you see when you see descendents of 47 trauma is "greedy, pushy, aggressive Punjabis", or "communist, crazy, useless, treasonous, inefficient Bengalis". (please add the adjective "Khalistani" to their descriptions of Punjabi Sikhs.) Regarding Sindhis, most of our countrymen ask "what is Sind? Where is Sind?" We do not have an ethose which will think of all us as parts of the same bodies. We do not think that if your lever bleeds, then your hands cannot laugh and make fun of it, if your left leg hurts, the right one cannot just continue to live like before. We lack the empathy required treat each on of *us*.

In such an environment, preserving the memories is too difficult. Ask Punjabi "refugee" families, most keep mum. I ask my elders if they would like to go back and at least see Rawalpindi, Gujranwala, and Lahore, they say a no and change the topic. This is not just my family, it is true in all of them i know. Punjabi Authress, Amrita Pritam, left Lahore in 47, never visited it again. Same is true of 10's of millions of "refugees". They don't want to go back and traumatize themselves again. Yesterday I was talking to an Uncle of mine, who was born in Jhelum (the city in Pakjab). He got irritated when I asked him about his feelings on pre-partition Punjab. He did not even tell me much about his visit in 80's to Lahore and Hasan Abdal. Butalia's book, brought out why there is this deafening silence.

The shoe is, in fact, on the other foot. Those who's historical provinces are intact and suffered no losses in Partition should remember it and vow to take it back. They, however, are the biggest indulgers in the love fest with pa'astan and the followers of RoP. They know that few more partitions are not going to affect them either.

[surinder]

In many different forms, the same feeling is expressed, which in popular circles goes like this "i am glad for partition otherwise look what woud we be". In this thread we express it as a scare of 30croroe numbers. What I find funny is that we Indians are so utterly mortified of the idea of struggle, sacrifice, and pain. We want things delivered to us on a platter with the least amount of sweat & bl00d. God forbid heavens would have fallen had we been one country and we would have to be forced to be extra energetic and vigilant to keep that segment of population in control.

Brihaspati has provide many alternate paths the united India would have taken. Add to that more possibilities: A united India would have been far more prosperous, we would not have our sense of nationality shattered by PRC, we would take a bigger share on all international forums. This prosperity would have taken a big hit at population growth levels. Not to mention presence of a larger number of IM's would unite the Hindus among themselves, and also Hindus wtih Sikhs. Lastly, there is a hatred for IM's that comes in all these ideas. IM's are, all said and done, a very talented set of people. They have extrordinary skills. The best craftsmen in most cities are of this faith. They produced great diplomats, musicians, artists, orators, poets, actors, filmmakers, technologies. All these talents would have been available to india. Creation of TSP has frittered their energies because they are always under the microscope, suspicious eyes looking for the least error to brand them anti-national. Freed from this loathsome burden, they would have been even bigger contributors to India. They would contributed tremendously to India's growth. All that talent was lost. Not just lost, TSP (and its handler nations) got all that talent to be used against us.

Add further to that: Hindus & Sikhs would have had to shed their ahimsic lethargy and be ready physically & mentall to continue to dominate the united India, just as Israel does in the face of 20% plus numbers. We would had to be more united, more energetic, and yes, more ready to sacrifice to keep us united. But hey, let us chop off the nation so that I don't have to do all of that difficult stuff.

[ramana]

Jaswant Singh also wants to reverse the Partition but you might not agree to his methods. No one method will work, need to have a range of options to use as needed.