J & K news and discussion

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 24 Oct 2010 13:00

Opposing AFSPA is to play into separatists' hands: Army Chief http://www.dailypioneer.com/291865/Oppo ... Chief.html

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 24 Oct 2010 18:30

BJP asks PMO to clarify Padgaonkar's remark
First the Geelani / Suzanna show, and then Padgaonkar's remark. I'll bet on November turning out to be a most interesting month...

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Oct 2010 21:12

ISI asks Kashmiri separatists to woo Naxals

In an ominous development, Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence has roped in separatist leaders and their sympathisers to make inroads in Naxal ranks in its anti-India strategies after making a failed attempt to enlist the support of the Maoist rebels.

Some of the arrested militants and overground Naxal workers spoke about the plan of the deadly Inter Services Intelligence(ISI) after the Pakistani agency found it was not possible to penetrate the security system of India [ Images ] regularly, official sources said. The sources said there was evidence pointing to ISI desperately trying to make inroads into the Naxal ranks and had now started seeking support of Kashmiri separatists and their sympathisers in this regard for their sinister designs.

A detailed analysis of events by subversive elements in the state showed that some Naxal activities were first noticed in R S Pura in 2007, the sources said. It was also found in 2008 that the Naxals had some support base in the Jammu University, the sources said. Another indicator to a link between Naxals and separatists in the Kashmir [ Images ] Valley came to light when Masarat Alam, the mastermind behind stone-pelting incidents, circulated a pamphlet about the plan for strikes by separatists. Ironically, the pamphlet was prepared by an overground Naxal worker and at several places, even the language was the same, the sources said.

A detailed examination by the Questioner of Examined Document (QED) of the paper showed that the font used in the pamphlet circulated by the Naxal leader Kishenji and by Masarat Alam were identical and even the printers were the same, the sources said. Over the last two years, some of the naxal overground supporters have been visiting Kashmir Valley and Jammu regions which has been monitored closely by the authorities, the sources said. Naxals had also given a bandh call on September 29 in support of the secession of Kashmir from rest of India.

The ISI had even roped in underworld cadres of Dawood Ibrahim [ Images ], designated by the US as global terrorist, to woo the Naxals and an attempt to this regard was foiled only in August this year when central security agencies led an operation in which six people in Bengaluru [ Images ] and Hyderabad were arrested. The ISI had attempted to establish contacts with Naxals with the help of underworld don Chota Shakeel for carrying out subversive activities in the country and six people have been arrested so far in this connection.

The police in Karnataka [ Images ] and Andhra Pradesh assisted by central security agencies in a swift operation, arrested four persons from AP and two from Bangalore. A sum of Rs 25 lakh meant for distribution to Naxals mainly in Andhra Pradesh was also seized from them.

According to officials privy to the operations, ISI had contacted Sheikh Shakeel Ahmed alias Chota Shakeel, who is at present holed up in Pakistan. The underworld don, wanted in many cases in India, got in touch with a person identified as Altaf, alleged to be one of his touts and a resident in Karnataka, for establishing contacts with Naxals in these two states.

Altaf alias Rakesh got in touch with a person named Vinay who had promised him to introduce him to some prominentNaxal leader from Andhra Pradesh, the sources said. Making attempts to nip in bud any subversive motive, the AP police closely monitored the activities of Vinay and in a discreet probe, it was found that he had received Rs 25 lakh through hawala channels from Altaf in Dubai [ Images ] as a token amount to forge a long term relationship.

Interesting that this news should come within 2 days of a major Naxal and Kashmiri separatist joint "Aazadi conference" in the capital!!

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 24 Oct 2010 21:31

Kashmir has never been integral part of India: Arundhati Roy

I dont know why we tolerate such idiots. She should be dispatched to the land of the pure ASAP.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 25 Oct 2010 06:12

Suppose the following attributed quotes appeared in some prominent mainstream media pubs in Des, or even better vides too...

Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Arundhati Roy claimed universality for their call for Kashmiri separatism. When asked, they seemed to indicate agreement and support for the Tibetians' struggle for self-determination and independence from the brutally oppressive Chinese regime as also for a similar struggle by Balochis fighting Islamabad's occupation of their country.

Dassit. Let the gilani & dotty jerks defend themselves after that. It will prove just how shallow and India-specific their universal fight for phreedom etc really are. Might also serve to alienate their principal sponsors - PRC and TSP - from them. Media propagandu can work in reverse also. About time our babus played by the dushman's rulebook.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Oct 2010 07:43

Centre's nod for case against Geelani for hate speech
I am unsure what was the hate speech. He certainly spoke seditiously and treasonously and should be booked for speaking against the integrity of the country. Again, why hasn't the centre given a similar 'nod' for Arundhati Roy ? Cases are not enough because they will drag on for years; immediate arrest is needed. I am sure the babus can find provisions for such arrests.

In Tamilnadu, a film director was recently arrested for sedition under National Security Act (NSA). The Congress in fact vehemently demanded his arrest.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Oct 2010 07:48

SSridhar wrote:Centre's nod for case against Geelani for hate speech
I am unsure what was the hate speech. He certainly spoke seditiously and treasonously and should be booked for speaking against the integrity of the country. Again, why hasn't the centre given a similar 'nod' for Arundhati Roy ? Cases are not enough; immediate arrest is needed. I am sure the babus can find provisions for such arrests.

This is becoming ridiculous. When did Geelani spoke that is not hate or not seditious or not treasonous. GOI deos not work with balls but just spins every inactions as some grand strategy.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Oct 2010 08:04

The below is what NSA, 1980 states:

3. Power to make orders detaining certain persons. (1) The Central Government or the State Government may, --(a) if satisfied with respect to any person that with a view to preventing him from acting in any manner prejudicial to the defence of India, the relations of India with foreign powers, or the security of India,

(2) The Central Government or the State Government may, if satisfied with respect to any person that with a view to preventing him from acting in any manner prejudicial to the security of the State or from acting in any manner prejudicial to the maintenance of Public order or from acting in any manner prejudicial to the maintenance of supplies and services essential to the community it is necessary so to do, make an order directing that such person be detained.

13. Maximum period of detention. The maximum period for which any person may be detained in pursuance of any detention order which has been confirmed under section 12 shall be twelve months from the date of detention: Provided that nothing contained in this section shall affect the power of the appropriate Government to revoke or modify the detention order at any earlier time.

This act does not apply to the state of Jammu & Kashmir but this cretin committed this crime in New Delhi.

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Oct 2010 08:15

This is a chankian ploy by MMS & Co for if Roy and Geelani are detained he risks losing the nobel peace prize race to the latter. Tactics of Geelani and his stone pelting rage boys seem to be working for MMS's interlocutors have openly endorsed and vindicated the secessionist pov.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2010 09:38

ye din dekhna baki tha!

Prove sincerity: Militants tell Kashmir interlocutors

If you are not going to show any spine then this is what you will get.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 25 Oct 2010 10:37

This is some of the irritants of democracy. Not sure which perfect world she wants to live in. She wants us to take us back 1950-70 periods. Old ideologies never dies.

neeraj wrote:Kashmir has never been integral part of India: Arundhati Roy
I dont know why we tolerate such idiots. She should be dispatched to the land of the pure ASAP.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2010 11:00

The right to free speach does not allow you to shout fire in a crowded theater. This needs to be explained to her.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 25 Oct 2010 12:21

All this tamasha is keeping the obama visit in mind.

How I wish the visit gets cancelled or something. It gets us nothing but more trouble. Wonder whose idea it was to invite Obama and why. MMS visited US, so it was courtsey I guess, to reciprocate. Our bad luck, Obama decided to take up the offer.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Oct 2010 12:31

now that the first snows are here, the streets are empty
predictable...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2010 12:35

Hari Seldon wrote:All this tamasha is keeping the obama visit in mind.

How I wish the visit gets cancelled or something. It gets us nothing but more trouble. Wonder whose idea it was to invite Obama and why. MMS visited US, so it was courtsey I guess, to reciprocate. Our bad luck, Obama decided to take up the offer.

Obama,

Is not the king of the world. If he mentions the K word he will get a cold shoulder onlee form the GOI.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 25 Oct 2010 14:12

neeraj wrote:Kashmir has never been integral part of India: Arundhati Roy
I dont know why we tolerate such idiots. She should be dispatched to the land of the pure ASAP.

AFAIK, Kashmir ( and large tracts of Norther Pakistan up to Afgahanistan

)was part of the Kamboja kingdom during Mahabharata times. The Kambojas sided with the Kauravas during the war.
So what do we have: a traitor, a plagiarist and an ignorant twat to boot!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2010 14:43

Neela,

This woman is seriously a gone case. She belongs in strait jacket and a paded room to prevent her from hurting her self.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2010 14:57

Earlier this year we had aman ke asha, Now we have the drama in the valley.

Interlocutors meet J-K separatist's ailing mother

Just WTF is going on.

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 25 Oct 2010 15:37

Pratyush wrote:Earlier this year we had aman ke asha, Now we have the drama in the valley.

Interlocutors meet J-K separatist's ailing mother

Just WTF is going on.

The team is a bunch of uber WKKs. Nothing good will come out of it. Such drama will keep happening. The only question is what is the end game ?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Oct 2010 15:47

every US and Pakistani article talks about Indian intransigence and stubborness on the Kashmir question, yet on BRF we are convinced that we are selling it down the river...
the truth must lie somewhere in the middle...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2010 16:08

LM, its not that India is selling it down the river. Its not going to happen. It is the shameful pandering of the Valley whaabies that gets my goat.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Oct 2010 16:12

It will be easy to understand whats going on in K of J&K if we keep the following points in mind - something I have tried to insist on at various time points before -

(1) The ultimate target for the KV leadership (can say nothing about the silent majority - who do not seem to have problems with the separatists - and whose turning out in some numbers in elections is not necessarily indicative of their objectives) is now a separate Islamic nation. They hope to get Pak and Afghan Taleb help (even Iran) to achieve this. Pak hopes to use the "Islamic" part to force India to give the valley up and then they will force the Kashmiri leadership to "give up" to Pak sovereignty. PRC supports either scenario as they can do business with both formats, and will support both to secure its northern territorial objectives. USA does not see any problem either way for it can manage access in both cases. Talebs support independent K because that leaves them with greater direct access to India and western China bypassing Slumabad. Iran wants tos ecure a foothold using both Shia angle as well as greater strategic penetration north of US presence. For all of these forces the KV is an important piece of real estate.

(2) The ultimate target is to be achieved in stages. First it was classical Islamic genocidal cleansing of non-Muslims to consolidate territorial homogeneity demographically. Then using the consolidated base carry on a two-pronged campaign to alternately pretend "making up" and extract concessions and resources which is then to be used for the next "war" phase of attacks, and further atrocities. This cycle is carried on until the non-Muslim "regime" gives up. This is almost pure classic early Islamic strategy - which worked against the Jews, and works against the "Hindus" for almost exactly the same reasons. Primarily because these two have ideological components of "empathy" and selective tolerance for "opposition" - which has been clearly recognized in the earliest Islamist texts and recommended for use to divide non-Muslims. We see this in the consistent application of such tactics as in the WKK, or Roy or the groups represented by the interlocutors.

(3) the western and European contribution to this has been the idea of a Northern Ireland Good Friday type agreement to be imposed on India over KV. This means joint control of certain aspects of state functioning by Pak and India with large bits given over to "autonomy". This is a partial compromise almost all of the dominant sections of the regimes in Slumabad, India and KV separatists - will agree to. It allwos each of them to save face partially.

(4) I had cautioned sometime ago that the lull after the protests and before the CWG should not be taken to be permanent, and that the autonomy issue will be revived before winter sets in badly. They need to stock up on resources for the winter and subsequent actions. This is overall tied up with a larger geo-political process of waiting for US withdrawal or damaging bogging down over the winter in AFG, and hence a greater freedom of action by Pak. Pak position may be further strengthened if it finally manages to place its own groups in Kabul as part of the "national gov" and USA withdraws further to lick its wounds. Iran AND pak will collaborate with AFG Islamists to corner USA more in the area, and only then will we see the KV valley in full form. It may not stop with NI type agreements then.

GOI will be forced to go to war if it comes to that, and will face almost the entire Islamic world overtly or covertly supporting the KV separatists.

Obama may also face some reversals, but whether the Republicans return to Presidency is yet to be seen. Any reversals faced by the Dems will ironically show gains by the USA in the ME and AFG theatre, as the Islamists are shrewd enough to realize the value of the current admin, and their financial or oil capital will move to try and have a Dem return.

This in turn may postpone the KV aims a bit but target remains on track.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Oct 2010 16:15

fair enuf, a man deprived of his goat is truly dangerous...
but seriously, the pandering must be a function of electoral politics and influence base
until an alternative influence base arises, e.g. gujjar morcha or kashmiri shia morcha or heaven forbid atoot ang morcha... there will be no real progress
so, who will mobilse these masses?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2010 16:36

LM,

Whose electoral base and what politics. If i accept the aim of politices as gaining and retaining power at all cost. Then the worthies running the show are creating a situation which will lead to them loosing power in the not too distant future. Why are they not understanding it.

Espiacially in the light of the RJB judgement. They seem to be going full speed in the opposite direction. The question is why?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Oct 2010 16:46

If you have to go in the other direction, then it means appealing to a sentiment - a cultural religious identity in the majority of Indians. That in tun means handing over political supremacy to pre-existing cultural identity, and that jeopardizes the authority of the personality cult [societal values become superior and then the one-and-only-true-leader loses his/her freedom of action]. Since the entire edifice now stands on a single-person based cult, the whole political establshment can then panic. There is no alternative for them - to preserve the power of the political dependents - to secure the personality cult - and which means the other direction cannot be taken.

So KV islamists will have to be pandered to as the alternative is the scaling down and erasure of the dynasty.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Oct 2010 16:52

brihaspati - don't quite understand your logic, but am willing to learn. please educate this unwashed mullah

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2010 16:59

But pandering to the KV islamists to this extent will loose them the center of mass when it comes to the national politics in India. Resulting in a loss of power. Which in turn will also lead to the erasure of the cult. This time permanently as opposed to as in the 90s. But in a much more painful way.

Keeping in mind the views of the Deobandis it is all the more puzzling.

There has to be a piece of the puzzle which I am missing. What it is, i don't know.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Oct 2010 17:04

Lalmohan wrote:every US and Pakistani article talks about Indian intransigence and stubborness on the Kashmir question, yet on BRF we are convinced that we are selling it down the river...
the truth must lie somewhere in the middle...

In any negotiation, even the current de-facto one at that we are witnessing, one stakes out the maximalist position, unless of course you are India under a titular "South Asian" CEO. Thus, by painting India as the villain ad nauseum, roping in India's 5th column to drive home the same point, which is what US & TSP are doing, completely ignoring the Isalmic fascist element in the valley, and Islamic terrorist element that spwans it, and thoroughly and comprehensively side-lining India's legitimacy, India's efforts to woo KMs, elections held under gun point etc, what TSP & US are hoping for is to settle for a middle ground in the interim. And that would include removal of AFSPA, joint love making etc. The interim goal is to give TSP a foothold in the valley. Thats the dance we are seeing now. By MMS not unequivocally stating India's maximlaist stance, and instead talking in surrender terms about meeting TSP more than halfway, he is laying the groundwork for LOC++, and TSP & US are going for the kill. At this point, with TSP's case, purely based on Isalmic fasicsm & terror given legitimacy by US, I see no other option for India but LOC++, and that too only in the interim. A slow-motion surrender of the valley instead of a a full military style flag handing over surrender ceremony to TSP in Srinagar is the "concession" TSP & USA are prepared to offer India.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2010 17:10

CRS LOC ++ or any thing else is not possible. I am absolutely sure of that. Some one or some one else going for th ekill will only endup biting a brick wall without the ability of breaking it. The question is why are the men behind the wall so eager to go over and surrender. When staying within the wall will ensure their safety and gurantee victory for the nation.

IOW, why are they so intent on loosing when doing nothing gets them victory.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Oct 2010 17:14

Lalmohan ji,
The only way the KV separatism can be tackled is to counter the Islamic hold and claims by a counter claim over that land by the true cultural owners - the Hindus and the Buddhists. This remains true even if we consider the current dynamic within Jammu and Ladakh versus KV (reference to the demarcation anomaly and mismatch of electoral proportions). Considered as a whole with respect to India this remains true. You need to have a counter claim that drowns out the KV islamist voice. That can only come from the supporters and claimants of the Hindu-Buddhist legacy to that territory - and who were present until recently [K was Islamized in fits and starts, and was comparatively late in Islamization, was defeated in recent wars under the Sikhs and Hindus].

But appealing to this Hindu-Buddhist claim represents politically handing over power to a cultural-historical identity that is not dependent on personality cults, moreover independent of the current personality cult based regime (whose "personalities" have consistently cultivated independence from such identities). The current model is that of the apparatus of state power dependent on the apparatus of personal power.

So if the Hindu-Buddhist legacy is seen as the power to which the "personality" has to submit to save the situation, then his/her power base is damaged.

Pratyush ji
The Deobandis are not taking up the position in favour of India. They are worried that Pak strengthening of influence there can damage the Islamist cause in India in two ways - (1) first it may generate a nationalist backlash that sees the Islamist angle as the enemy in KV (2) that any gaining of strength here by Pak based Islamists means that the Indian Deobandis have a competitor for overall Islamization targets for India that they have.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2010 17:24

B,

What prevents us from using the Deobandies to further the political ends of the Indian state in the valley. If the deobandi fears that are mention are for real.

It is playing with fire, agreed, but if it blunts the push of the enemies of the state. Why not use it.

JMT

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Oct 2010 17:44

But it does not tackle the root problem of Islamism in the valley - just a change of leadership, and the Deobandis staking a share in the pie of what promises to be be fruitful in the future. It is not playing with fire, just helping to add continued fuel supply.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Oct 2010 18:04

somehow i feel that just having an alternative to the islamist element will go a long way to dealing with the problem. i note that much of 'yesterday's' separatist leaders are now looking like moderates, and a new breed of islamists is in charge...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Oct 2010 19:02

It is now established that some part of our media, special Interest groups, NGOs Based in Delhi and claiming to be Indians have now for some time parotting an anti-national agenda(i.e working on behalf of goverments outside India) which seems to be backed by some in main stream media.

Whether its kashmir, Maoists, ULFA thier agenda seems to be only to split India into various parts and are using the education system, media for thier end.

Can we have a seperate thread discussing where we can discuss thier funding, thier agenda and thier backers.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 25 Oct 2010 20:52

Pratyush wrote:Earlier this year we had aman ke asha, Now we have the drama in the valley.

Interlocutors meet J-K separatist's ailing mother

Just WTF is going on.

Chai-biskoot

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 25 Oct 2010 20:56

Aditya_V wrote: Can we have a seperate thread discussing where we can discuss thier funding, thier agenda and thier backers.

We have two...

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=1&t=5682
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... =24&t=5609

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 25 Oct 2010 21:05

Pratyush wrote:Earlier this year we had aman ke asha, Now we have the drama in the valley.

Interlocutors meet J-K separatist's ailing mother

Just WTF is going on.

Radha kumar has just grabbed the chance to get some authentic kashmiri wazwan recipes. Next the interlocuters will contact musharraf's wife for authentic paki masalas.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 25 Oct 2010 21:11

Pratyush wrote:Neela,

This woman is seriously a gone case. She belongs in strait jacket and a paded room to prevent her from hurting her self.

She is also crafty like a fox. Such statements made in WKM land may not be actionable in India.

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Oct 2010 21:33

Disgusting to see all our English MSM channels debating whether the GoI should go ahead with charge sheeting Geelani and the naxals for their Delhi speeches instead of thinking about what the punishment should be for such $#%@^!

NDTV is even playing Geelani's reaction to this development as a "breaking news"

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 25 Oct 2010 22:35

Geelani, Arundhati to be booked under sedition charge

Finally looks like GOI has grown some b@@ls