AMCA News and Discussions

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SaiK
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

indranilroy wrote:^^^ you can call that one a bad project drawing :wink:
you see now what the "bad project" drawing is all about. what gives more "information"/conveys... to the real stakeholders :) .
--
Fitting the AESA t/r module is one thing (good).. and getting to process and utilize the advantage provided by them is entirely different set of achievements.

That is where IAF has to give out their specific requirements.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

From modules testing to deployment AESA radar will take at least 10-15 years
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Sagar G »

Singha wrote:the engine is way too small in that drawing for a start.
That's not even a CAD model, most probably has been made in paint or some similar software.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

95-100kN Kaveri++ is what all the aspirations about. Which is core.. but peripheral needs are taking higher priority in terms of funding than what is really needed for total independence. We also heard a ddm report on canceling the project, which I suspect is not correct, or if the report is true , there goes another one of those "bad decisions".
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

indranilroy wrote:^^^ you can call that one a bad project drawing :wink:
:D
I still don't know what a projection drawing is, but that is definitely not done in any CAD package..
member_23626
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23626 »

^^Is that drawing really from DRDO or another gem taken out from the musharaff of aroor saab. Remember that drawing that was being flouted on livefist for Nirbhay missile?
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Eric Leiderman »

A projection drawing is a view of an object from a certain angle. eg birds eye
sarabpal.s
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by sarabpal.s »

More likely this intake is for unmanned aircraft bomber under developing in hal
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by srai »


Looks similar to this:
Image
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

being subsonic the problems will be less than a supersonic serpentine intake...
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Not sure how they got the variable geometry in SR-71.. something about the cowl and inlet throat design perhaps...

pak-fa seems very interesting., especially the variable vane controls., that does a dual job of reducing RCS.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by kit »

hmm they allow pictures like this to be taken ? But honestly it looks like a DIY project in a workshop of sorts .. like a college lab
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23626 »

^^^ just for a few cheers and appreciations idiots like shiv aroor post pictures of such things ... seriously, is he even sane?? IMO shiv aroor is an idiot that doesn't know a thing about weaponry,, his blog is turned into another sensational blog that speaks before thinking.. he is an arrogant idiot of the highest order, although he gets some good pics :)
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by PratikDas »

What makes you think the designers don't want some cheers and appreciation? The Indian UCAV unmanned bomber might be the last one to arrive on the scene but we need people to believe it will be stealthy when it does arrive for it to be a deterrent. These pictures help.

If you think Shiv Aroor is an idiot then I'm curious to know what you think of NDTV or Lasun Sengupta.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

Sridhar is right, Aroor is a complete fraud who uses the achievements of or progress made by others to push eyeballs to his blog. The images above were shown by VKS at Sweden. Now how did he go put his own copyright on those images, tell me? His blog comments are full of comments by Pakis using the filthiest language against Indians and Indian institutions like DRDO etc which Aroor tacitly encourages.

You can often see him anon., using his trademark language and syntax - pretty easy to discern - leading the flamebaiting. After all, he was the same idiot who under SGs orders ran a bunch of cooked up stories against DRDO in the infamous IE campaign to discredit DRDO. Did we ever see Aroor apologize for the rubbish he wrote? Never.

Tarmak, Shukla - these show what actual journalism is. The former rarely puts his political opinions on any topic, bar HAL against some of whose internal politicking and issues which he has had an axe to grind but still balances out with positive coverage. Shukla is no techie but takes efforts to understand and write about tech and business. In contrast, Aroor gets his hands on PPTs from public events and seminars, puts his copyright on them - which would have him in trouble in any other country - and then just copy pastes stuff while putting condescending remarks about the very same institutions doing the development.

He is actually the single biggest example of how fraudulent Indian defense journalism is. Apparently It requires little to no talent, no understanding of technology or even efforts to do so, and lastly, no sense of ethics to succeed in journalism in India, where people like Aroor can succeed in the weeds. Add the other people revelling in their mediocrity and it becomes apparent as to why the Indian public knows so little about what it finances and why.

Furthermore, he is arrogant and lacks sincerity. Take that Rajeev Ranjans report on ALH. He may not know much but he shuts up and lets the actual experts the pilots flying the aircraft, speak. In contrast, Aroor tries to position himself as an expert, its laughable - using terms like controversial, dangerous, blistering, thunderous and what not to describe development efforts. Add the propaganda campaign he has conducted against Indian institutions in the past, and whom he continues to attack with snide comments, and its obvious that this guy is a total fraud.

He should be covering whether Bollywood filmstars wear enough makeup or what hemline goes with what skirt. Defense journalism is beyond him.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by srai »

^^^

I don't think Shiv A. has written an actual article. All of the stuff on his blog are just a rehash of materials picked up from various defense presentations and visits to labs (which he has access because he has the media pass).
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by PratikDas »

Yes, he does post 50 times as many pictures as articles, but if it weren't for his blog we'd be speculating a lot more on BR. Tarmak has a high SNR even if it is jingoistic, but I fly the same flag so it's all good.

If there was any proof that the comments on Livefist disparaging Indian institutions unduly, and BRFites have many things to say about the OFB and GTRE too, are Aroor's doing then that would compel me to forget that blog.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23626 »

PratikDas wrote:What makes you think the designers don't want some cheers and appreciation? The Indian UCAV unmanned bomber might be the last one to arrive on the scene but we need people to believe it will be stealthy when it does arrive for it to be a deterrent. These pictures help.

If you think Shiv Aroor is an idiot then I'm curious to know what you think of NDTV or Lasun Sengupta.
Pratikji,
I will happily give stand up ovations to everyone involved in this project, even after 50 years. Shiv aroor is a highly arrogant man, once a commentor advised him to not misguide people on Nirbhay and he wasn't happy for the poor journalism ... our great shiv saab gave this reply "You don't really have to be here, I won'tbe affected by not having you". Shiv aroor is nothing more than an arrogant idiot, who never thinks before writing an article about our respectable organisations. He also sounds pathetic when he tries to use stylish english as if to show us boor yindoos how well educated and well versed in english he is... his articles are outright insulting both to the country and the defence orgs. As a defence journalist, he should try his best to uplift the country's image instead of writing false (negative) reports and whines that are just meaningless and degrades whatever respect one has for Indian army. I did appreciate his photos in my last post.As far as undee tv and it's "english speaking/educated/liberal and modern" cousin channels are concerned, I am pretty sure I will be banned if I call them by their proper names and titles :). Anyways, I think I went a little OT here... I apologize for that,if you still want to debate, please do so in nukkad. Sorry if I was being rude.
Regards :)
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by member_22539 »

Karan M wrote:Sridhar is right, Aroor is a complete fraud.....................Defense journalism is beyond him.

+1
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Victor »

The engine on that pic posted by saik is actually the right size. They are very small relative to the whole plane on modern jets and the intake is usually mostly "empty", the main function being to scoop undisturbed air into the engine.

Take a look at the engines on a Flanker:
Image
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

Aroor is not a bad guy. He is Govinda of Defense Reporting. Just try to enjoy good parts of his blog without using too much brains. He gets very easily misled, so lot of his blog posts are pure junk.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by sarabpal.s »

vic wrote:Aroor is not a bad guy. He is Govinda of Defense Reporting. Just try to enjoy good parts of his blog without using too much brains. He gets very easily misled, so lot of his blog posts are pure junk.
:twisted:
+1
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

If Aroor was simply being a joker and admitted that, it would be one thing - the Govinda analogy would hold good.

But he pretends to be a neutral "expert" and in the process somebody who routinely talks down Indian programs while pimping foreign wares. He has no idea of any program in detail, would be hard pressed to differentiate between a BMP or a BTR but posts on topics like the Arjun. He has run campaigns in the past against Indian programs, benefiting foreign vendors. He then claims innocence. Things were so pathetic that a former Naval senior officer took him to task in a public event. Aroor barely squirmed out of that one, but had no answers to give.

Pratik - if you haven't noticed Aroors proclivities in the past, please do so now. Go look through the comments section and see the filth that makes it through despite ostensible moderation. That moderation is more to prevent criticisms of Aroor.

He doesn't lessen speculation, he misleads people and increases it.

What is worse is the complete lack of ethics. He takes other peoples work and puts his own watermark on it. Shameless! Those are not even his to begin with! He has been scolded in public, his behaviour as a hack led to angry R&D folks asking for reporters to be evicted from the Agni launch control room at one time, and even written reports alluded to the media campaign being misleading. Aroor was the one who caused all this, but remains absolutely shameless.

Sorry, but thats not being easily misled, its the arrogance of an individual with zero self achievements to his credit, but who is using the hard work of others to rise. And in the process, attacks those very people thanks to whose work he gets eyeballs and takes credit for their work to boot.

Seen the huge livefist watermarks in the above pics? Do you think Aroor made those CAD/CAM images? No - he stole them from public presentations and instead of admitting where the sourcing is from, claims they are from "sources". This sort of lousy behaviour is what makes Indian journalism so pathetic. Take a look at Bill Sweetman of AWST or Trimble of Flightglobal and how they credit data. Guys like those can actually string together their own interpretation of complex events. Trimble once wrote a 3-4 line precis of a jargon filled failure analysis of a JSF analysis. Its stuff like this which is assumed to be the basis of competent journalism, but Aroor lacks it.

In India, compare him to TS Sub. of the Hindu, Shukla of BStd., New IE's Tarmak or several others, and this joker is arguably amongst the most pathetic.

The reason I am calling him out is simple - far too many people take this twit to be a serious commentator. He is not.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Singha wrote:being subsonic the problems will be less than a supersonic serpentine intake...
Ah yes, THAT there sent a shiver up my spine thinking of the flow physics inside... :rotfl:

No offense, Singha ji. Just having some fun... 8)
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

>>If you don't like him, don't indulge his blog. How he conducts HIS blog is HIS business. If DRDO guys believe he is violating copyright (watermarking pics doesn't proof copyright, it just is a proof of source) or sharing information, he should not, they can take it up with the MoD. National security will not be compromised for want of a blog.

Sorry Indranil, but that is a completely weird position to take and completely at odds with general principles of ethics and fairness, not to mention how things work out elsewhere. Lets take academics. Then would anyone credible ever go ahead and for any work - academic thesis or otherwise, take other peoples work and credit it as his own. Is that only ONES OWN business - just using the capitals as you used for emphasis? Or does it reflect on ones own ethics and those of the institution one represents? Will you or will you not be penalized? Now these are the standards everyone adheres by ...why let Aroor by for such shady practises?

Asking DRDO to run it with the MOD is equally pointless. We have had instances in the recent past of national newspapers attacking the integrity of a serving Army Chief and walking away scot free. And you think DRDO or any agency will take on the media, for unethical practises? This when they werent even allowed to defend themselves against the slander that went on before?

Second, the bigger point is not just the images and his watermarking, the point is this is how this man approaches ANY serious topic. In a brazen, unethical manner. As a public figure who tries for acclaim via such methods, it is perfectly valid to call out his sources and methods publicly, and critique them.

This business of dont visit his blog etc doesnt work either. Whether we indulge it or not, there are people who use this mans rubbish as valid information and are posting it on this forum and then analysis or whatever since they only know what Aroor selectively releases from information which is not his to begin with.

This also means that DRDO et al, who were increasingly sharing data with us, the common citizens and taxpayers, are being more wary. I know of public seminars for instance which were to have a lot of the data uploaded for public scrutiny. After this hero started his "controversial program revealed" sort of BS "scoops", all those efforts have been put on hold! His statements about IUSUAV etc - "controversial", "killing machine"...

This sort of rubbish needs to stop. For all those "discussing the AMCA" using the kind of stuff Aroor writes, and releases - with NO thought for what he is doing and why - except self glorification - well, then people need to understand what kind of people they are dealing with.

Here is one more example of Aroors idiocy, the kind that encourages ranting and all sorts of mistaken tut tutting. Its the perfect example of how Aroor uses selective data to make a claim that on the face of it sounds reasonable "India should synergize programs, use existing capabilities etc" while making rubbish claims.

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2012/05/ind ... anned.html

There's an appalling lack of resource and research synergy between HAL, NAL, the DRDO and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), all of which appear to be either developing (or, in HAL's case, marketing) UAVs with areas of obvious technological overlap. Weirdly, beyond the meaningless paper seminars and lofty presentations, none of these laboratories or agencies actually cooperate to deliver even a single, capable unmanned system to the armed forces. All we ever get to hear about is new UAVs, or old UAVs with new names. Someone needs to do something about this.

And this joker calls himself a journalist! The fellow does not even know that there is a huge amount of "resource and research synergy" between HAL, NAL and ADA to the extent that common systems are being used across all programs. Specific labs are working on these systems and there is indeed an overarching objective to develop multiple classes of platforms to meet the huge UAV gap that exists in India today.

A good journalist, like Shukla, would actually meet NAL, HAL, DRDO etc people and trace out these linkages. Aroor instead uses his blog to propagate the idea that the keystone kops that run Indian establishments need his wisdom.

And of course, the comments follow. As regards HAL "marketing" UAVs, the organization actually has several programs for UAVs planned, but these have been deliberately kept in abeyance so as not to overlap with similar programs being run by ADE/ADA and NAL!

As regards airborne UAVs, it is ADE which is leading the UAV programs, with NAL, HAL and private industry supporting them. For meeting immediate tactical needs, HAL has a tieup with an Israeli firm. For UCAVs, it is ADA which is leading the program with participation from HAL and NAL plus ADE for flight controls. For engines, both HAL and GTRE are working on these.

These are but the basics, from open publications. Does this in anywhich way, sound uncoordinated? This idiot takes presentations of work which is actually being done, and dismisses them as "meaningless paper seminars and lofty presentations". The fool does not even know that most of the data presented in these from the Indian side, relates to actual programs and projects. He clearly lacks the technical education or even the acumen or drive to parse out actual details. Which a good journalist would do. Nor does he even understand that for security reasons, India is now holding these seminars etc within India, whilst ensuring that adequate participation gives junior scientists the opportunity to showcase their work and also understand newer topics!

Aroor uses the NAL HANSAs example of being unmanned - something NAL needs to do because it is the lynchpin of Indian efforts to go unmanned along with ADE (where did the Rustom airframe data come from, pray if not for NALs work with the Rutan planform) and tries to correlate it to the trainer fiasco, which is entirely another topic in itself. There, note, Aroor will not pin any sort of blame on the lack of adequate requirements in time, from the IAF, which will alienate him from his sources. Note the difference between Shukla and Aroor here. Or Tarmak and Aroor. The other two are not afraid to criticize even the Army, HAL etc despite their own origins in those organizations. This sort of selective rubbish, is another issue with Aroor. He tries to posture as some sort of knowledgeable insider about Indian industry. FFS, has this man even ever written a half serious analysis used by anyone worthwhile? Copy pasting other folks work and making rubbish claims is not journalism.

Sorry, but raising Aroors lack of ethics, and his shoddy standards of journalism is germane to this thread. People are using Aroors "insights" to talk about the AMCA, when the copy and paste master could not even distinguish between which inlet was being used for which program.

Asking people to not go to his blog, when his blog is quoted, is pointless.If people use a lousy journalists selective "leaks" to discuss a program and its objectives, then by all means, be aware of how lousy that journalist is!!
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Fair enough arguments for and against erroor, but all that we aam folks would like to know is the images are genuine. it is okay he be rewarded or punished for his illegal pics, but it is important to know if they are genuine enough to be assured that is what in the public minds, AMCA would look like. Otherwise, there would be bigger disappointments for the aam eyes and ears.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Victor wrote:The engine on that pic posted by saik is actually the right size. They are very small relative to the whole plane on modern jets and the intake is usually mostly "empty", the main function being to scoop undisturbed air into the engine.

Take a look at the engines on a Flanker:
Image
No Victor sahab, it is not. The picture you have posted shows a cutout even for the engine. If you really want to observe carefully. Look at this high res picture for the same. You will be able to see the compressor blades for the right engine.

The length: breath ratio of most modern fighter engines is roughly 5:1.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Karan M, your friend has appeared in Katrina thread.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Victor »

indranilroy wrote:
Victor wrote:The engine on that pic posted by saik is actually the right size.
No Victor sahab, it is not.
Hi Indranil, observing carefully, both Flanker and AMCA pics referred to show their engines--compressor blades to exhaust--at about 1/4 of the plane length (the Flanker's is actually a little shorter than the AMCA's). Both engines are also less than half the length from intake to exhaust and this is the current norm for twin-engine jets. Single-engine jets like the F-16, Gripen, MiG-21 tend to have engine:length ratios of 1:3. ie. they are more "compact".

One standout exception is the Rafale which also has about a 1:3 ratio in spite of being a twin-engine jet, a result of design objectives made possible by the compact M88. Rafale is essentially a single-engine design with two engines crammed in and having better performance than most comparable twin-engine jets. IMO a worthy objective for the AMCA as long as VLO is maintained as objective #1.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by SKrishna »

Image

New AMCA Design from NAL ... by Livefist....
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by nakul »

Is that supposed to be AMCA or just a generic 5th gen fighter. The last time someone claimed that a poster from HAL depicting a plane was actually a redesigned AMCA when it was just a stock image of stealth fighter. Some went so far to claim that HAL is collaborating with Korea since it appeared to look similar to Korea's 5th gen project. Anyone knows whether NAL is developing military aircrafts? I thought that is the purview of ADA & DRDO...
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

seems to have gained a lerx and the wing shape become more trapezoidal vs the old models seen. backside looks unchanged.

NAL is supposed to perform the role of TsAgi in russia and come up with the best aerodynamic designs and test options in their extensive facilities. so I wouldnt be surprised if multiple shapes are being tried out to downselect to 1 finally.

I would go with a big trazezoil wing, slim taper fuselage, low wing loading, boat shaped raptorkilla J20 nose and design the a/c around that. performance has to be built in from shape itself...stuff like sensors and avionics can always be changed later but lack of performance + world class in everything else is the fate of the Shornet.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by nakul »

^^^

If what you is true, they would be seriously considering carrier dynamics while designing this plane. There is a lot of data on why Rafale was designed the way it was because the same model would be used for Air Force & Navy requirements. We will have a need for 5th gen carrier aircrafts in the IN.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by SKrishna »

Is the rear sector stealth too much of an ask with little cost benefit in return? Except Raptor non of the current 5th gen designs incorporate rear stealth or IR signature suppression....
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Did they change the shape of radome?

Yes, rear stealth for least IR needs a lot of research.. The EF2K approach for rear retractable jammer imho, is ideal solution for the future, besides anything comes up to reduce thermal signature [h20 inducing is the most simplest and expensive approach].

Most IR seekers have reduced range [WVR++ onlee].. hence my thought.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

raptor is a smallish airframe with 2 massive engines . they can afford 15% loss of thrust and still display awesome climb, acceleration and turn performance.
no other a/c is so blessed with excess thrust.
the single engined birds with internal bays like JSF are obese looking as it is, they dont want to lose thrust.
the rest of 2 engine birds with internal bays are just about coming off drawing boards except the J20 and PAKFA. the J20 is a fat pig and the PAKFA which will eventually have raptor style engines is still a bigger airframe (heavier).

raptor is likely to remain a unique design for all time perhaps. but tail IR suppression is common in UCAVs.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by SKrishna »

yeah right.. B-2 Spirit and F-117 also had tail IR suppression but they are both subsonic so are all the UCAV designs IIRC. Raptor is probably the only stealth a/c with afterburner IR suppression..

F-35 has serated edges on its engine exhaust. That I think is for stealth in RF spectrum... dunno if it also helps in IR suppression?
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

That AMCA image is from the NAL directors report

As usual Aroor, being the slimy...err ...ethical journalist that he is, ripped it off and added a LIVEFIST watermark.

It says tests were conducted at 0.5M and 1.3 M, this configuration is stable at low aoa at half Mach.

Clearly, the configuration is not finalized yet and testing continues, despite Aroors attempts to confuse folks with "scoops"..

A far more far reaching contributor to AMCA and other programs can be found here:
http://www.nal.res.in/pages/ipaug12.htm#three

Read from the bottom. Three different facilities and capabilities, each with substantial ramifications.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

I think it plays a role in noise reduction also. some of the newer B737 and the dreamliner have the serrated edges on rear edge of the engine cowl. it probably reduces air turbulence somewhat and hence noise.

about Aroor, his blog is nothing more than a set of scans of handouts from the vendors or some CAD images from his "sources" which mean little....tens of variations are likely to be studied for a major platform before finalization of a project costing $20b.
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