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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 04:33
by ramana
ramana wrote:Some op-eds from Dainik Jagran in English:
Will the chargesheet take the accused ot the gallows?
Nice side bar on the sections of IPC that were invoked.
...
Section 302- Accused could face death sentence or life imprisonment on charges of murder
Section 307- Accused could face death sentence for attempt to murder of victim’s friend
Section 365- They have been booked under this section for kidnapping which can draw death penalty
Section 396- Booked on charges of dacoity with murder and could get maximum punishment
{My point!!!!}
Section 376- Accused booked on charges of gang rape and could face life imprisonment
Section 394- Rigorous imprisonment which may extend to ten years on charges of committing or attempting to commit robbery and voluntarily causing hurt
Section 201- Sentence could vary according to the crime on charges of causing disappearance of evidences of offence or giving false information to screen offender
Section 377- Accused may face life imprisonment on charges of unnatural sex
Section 120- Concealing design to commit offence punishable with imprisonment
Section 34- Up to 3-years of imprisonment for committing crime
Section 395- Rigorous imprisonment for a term which may extend to ten years on charges of dacoity
....
The prosecution alleged that the crime was executed in a "well-planned" manner.
"We have invoked section 120-B as all the six accused have committed the crime in a well-planned manner," public prosecutor Rajiv Mohan told reporters.
"Each one of them has a specific role in the commission of the offence. So they are equally liable for the crime. We have sufficient evidence against all the accused including the juvenile offender," he said.
Mohan said the DNA report has established the involvement of all the accused in the crime.The five accused are Ram Singh, his brother Mukesh and their accomplices Pawan Gupta, Vinay Sharma and Akshay Thakur. The role of the juvenile offender is also elaborated in the charge sheet.
Can some one familiar with Indian law make an argument for each of those sections for prosecuting the five accused.
After that I would like someone else to make the opposite case so we understand who the case unfolds.
I think you all would be doing the forum a lot of good.
Lets not worry about the juvenile now.
ramana
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 05:16
by Philip
There are no silver linings in this dreadful and barbaric case,but what it has done is to expose the mentality of our rulers and those who have considerable political influence in the country and what do we find? A medivael mindset that considers women as mere statistics,or worse still objects to be abused as domestic slaves and hunted down for sport! Are we to see the a call for the sari banned in the future ? The Pondicherry govt. wanting "cloaks" ,aka Burqas,to conceal women is taking us right into Saudi territory where women have been reduced to the level of sex slaves.Is this a modern confident India or a regression into the worst level of erstwhile feudalalism?
Nevertheless,these asinine mouthings and attitudes of the ruling elite has exposed their moral bankruptcy to lead and rule India and these examples who by their views actually promote rape and crimes against women,in truth are accessories to the crime, must be thrown out at the next hustings.The youth of India must also see that the current crop of politicos have few outstanding and fearless leaders,shamelessly kowtowing instead to their unfeeling bosses like MMS,Sonia and their ilk.We are told in the media of (unknown) Congress and cabinet leaders who are for strong punishment,etc.,etc.,but these leaders are afraid of speaking out foir fear of getting the chop! Only Shashi Tharoor has said his piece,speaking the way he felt.The rest are paralysed by their lust for power and sadly the Opposition,who should've come out onto the streets in their millions have missed the bus too.Perhaps a new party of the youth has to emerge .It is a massive votebank just waiting for the right leader who has an All-Indian attitude to seize the day.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 05:32
by ramana
Yes Shashi Tharoor spoke hi smind clearly and did not backtrack when the party aparatchiks snarled at him. In the end he was vindicated after the victim's name was revealed.
Philip, In my last trip what I found was the consternation and exasperation at the BJP for being unable and unwilling to be the opposition party in India. Many expressed their disbelief at the two party system when the Opposition wants to just occupy the benches in Lok Sabha and hardly do anything.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 05:41
by Philip
Yes Ramana,I am also just unable to comprehend the BJP at this time.Some of them are such excellent parliamentarians and professionals and have a very high moral line of thought and action.The reality is that there are two India's,as I've been saying for a very long time,urban and rural India.Rural India being kept in its time-warp and urban India with all its material benefits for those who can win the rat race.The BJP is trying to use one formula for both entities,which is bound to fail.The only sensible person who has come up with a solution is APJ Abdul Kalam,who has a crusade on to providing urban amenities to rural areas (PURA),thus uplifting them into the 21st century.However,the BJP's unwillingness to come out onto the streets and seize the day is incomprehensible.Strangely,the past-masters at agitation,the Left have also been petrified and paralysed and barring soundbites from a few from the politburo,the voices of the proletariat have been silent or silenced!
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 07:27
by brihaspati
The urbanization rural debate is perhaps not pertinent. I was looking at the districtwise data, and it is clear that it is not just urbanization versus rural : within general urban environments - it is the "commercial" districts which show maximum reported rapes. Otherwise urban rural patterns are not indicative.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 07:34
by brihaspati
When elite talks of being ashamed of being Indians, its the sign of ultimate identity crisis. People are feeling ashamed of a hybrid culture where invading regimes and their native collaborators evolved into a desi version of foreign misogyny. That is not India. These people should be told clearly, that they should stick to the real India which existed as a much more liberal and woman-tolerant society before the advent of Buddhism and invasion of Islam or the medieval Catholics.
Drop this sham of everyone having shaped and contributed positively towards creating the Indian "identity".
What level of cynicism can emphasize and harangue about how serious "Dalit rape" is, as if somehow rape of a Dalit girl is orders of magnitude different from the rape of a Brahmin girl. Are we headed for an identity based quota on rape too - that a Dalit raped should get more "compnesation" and greater penalties for the attacker than if the target was a "Brahmin girl"? Or should a Dalit rapist get more leniency than a Brahmin rapist?
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 07:40
by ramana
Philip, Look at Gujarat now. Its very much urban and no PURA or any other four letter scheme to siphon funds to the politicians.
I tend to agree with Bji, that higher incomes facilitate more dominant behavior.
In Hyderabad the BPOs have solved the problem of transportation for female employees. Company vouched and hired taxis come to the employees homes and take them to work and drop them at work.
DP can arrange some of their vast vehicles to transport their woman constables to their homes and spare the nation of the spectacle of them being harassed in deplorable Delhi public transport.
This doesnt need an Einstein to figure that one out.
Maybe the JCP can spend some time arranging this than giving GPS data to reporters.
First ensure your own force is safe from malcontents/miscreants.
------------
Bji Am convinced the INC fellow travelers(B dutt and her ilk) had insider info of the victim's last name and made their posts.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 08:36
by RamaY
Cross posting so more people read this...
brihaspati wrote:Indians ashamed to be Indians over the rape : confusing Indian identity with foreign misogyny:
Bollywood superstar Shah Rukh Khan and Tech Wizard Narayana Murthy – two iconic Indians of modernity, from two opposite ends of public entertainment and economic value creation, have been reported on Indian media as supposedly having felt “ashamed to be an Indian” over the issue of the Delhi gang rape.
Women activists on TV chat shows and discussion rounds have directly or indirectly blamed “Indian traditional attitudes” for the mistreatment of Indian women. The list of complaints is long : patriarchy, religious orthodoxy, fundamentalism. The overall impression in going through the media representations is however – a definite sense of discomfort in blaming “religion” for it. The reasons are obvious, because both Islam and Christianity in India have shown their orthodox, and religiously motivated, attitudes towards the female body and the female role in society so often and so intensively – that the main target of so-called secular politics, that is “Hindutva”, cannot be singled out, and the prime favourites of secularists will also get tarred and feathered.
The real reasons as to why Indians are in a spot is because they have been forced by regime dependent and encouraged professional historiography to cover up the reality of Indian cultural development, being forced to swallow fanciful reconstructions of Indian past where foreign imperialist ideologies like Islam and colonial period European Christianity had to be shown as having immensely positively shaped and “reformed” a supposedly “backward, primitive, pagan, Brahminical, repressive” Indian society.
The brevity of this post forces me to touch upon some of the myths of Indian history – especially where it concerns women, but very briefly.
Vedic and Puranic literature show ample examples of women choosing their own husbands, having the right to approach and be “satisfied” by a man they took fancy to, to go out on dates with other men even while having fixed longer term partners and children [the very institution of Vedic marriage rites as a contract of mutual loyalty by the sage Swetaketu - son of Uddalaka - because he did not like his own mother going out with a strange man when he was a child and his father explained that women were free to "roam" and were not be held as private property]. If a woman chose to have a child outside of marriage, she and her child were both acceptable – for example, a founder of a Brahmin lineage, Bharadwaja, was a son of his mother Mamata by her brother-in-law Brihaspati (brother of her husband), and delivered twins she carried at the same time – one from her husband, and the other from the brother-in-law. Puranic literature shows many cases of women proposing to men they fell in love with, or have clandestine marriages [the story of Shakuntala], and being recognized as founders of prestigious lineages. Brahma’s unmarried daughter Saraswati declares that she would like to go and “live” with the Gandharvas because they know how to “please” women and she is not prevented from doing so.
The two famous epics, Ramayana and Mahabharata are much lambasted by western and Indian scholars as epitomizing patriarchal attitudes and repression. The central story of Ramayana revolves around the destruction of a whole city and a king because he abducted the wife of another. But the same story also told how an “adultress” could still “come back to life” and be taken back into society (Ahalya), and how it was okay for a wife to collaborate in the murder of her husband to marry the brother of his husband, whom she loved (Tara). A key feature of the Mahabharata is however that a woman could practice polyandry – with the lead characters of the five-brothers sharing one significant wife. What is not mentioned is that Mahabharata shows the prevalence of swayamvara – the open and public choice of husbands by eligible girls, and of warrior women who go and fight alongside their husbands or even without husbands. At least two women, Satyabhama, the wife of Krishna, and Chitrangada, the wife of Arjuna – are described as having actually taken to the battlefield – with their partners/lovers/husbands.
A primary cause of the core story of the Mahabhrata war is given to be the molestation of the wife of the five-brothers in public space. Thus molestation of women was seen to be worthy of terrible retribution. In fact in a little highlighted passage, Krishna explains the reason as to why the brothers who were reluctant to shed the blood of their kin, should actually take up arms – because if their elite-status wife could be so molested, what about the protection of women in general society? They should fight the war to re-establish “dharma” which among many other things, was also supposed to ensure freedom and dignity for women. With one exception, all abduction of women, in Mahabharata is punished – one way or the other – even in a society that recognized certain types of “abduction” if ended with “honourable” marriages. Bhisma, abducts Kasi princesses to give in marriage to his nephews (by the custom of his times he had a right to be angry because his nephews had not been invited to the sayambhara of the girls), but is punished for not marrying them – even if he did not rape or molest them – by having to die at the hands of a transgender enemy. The Kurus are destroyed horribly because their leader molested a wife.
Interestingly, women were abadhya/aghnaya – or could not be killed, even in war-situations. A commander of one side, Bhisma, drops his weapons when faced with a transgender opponent- whom he considers a woman, and allows himself to be fatally wounded to maintain this principle of conduct of war.
Sounds oh so Brahminical and patriarchal and repressive towards women, sexuality and the female body?
Indian regimes and historians often portray the advent of Buddhism as a “liberating” and “reforming” movement that “cleansed” Indian post-Vedic society from the “evils of Brahminism”, and try to shift all blame to the Vedic as being repressive towards “caste” and “women”. I have great respects for the Buddhists, but I am intrigued by very curious features of early and later Buddhism, that go against the propaganda.
First, early Buddhist literature show two things not shared in general by the Vedic – the gradation of human work as “uttama” (good/higher) and “adhama”(evil/lower) based, presumably on whether the work involved violence or not, and the emphasis given in Buddhism to the connection between “uttama/adhama” karma to reincarnation in a better future life or lesser punishment in such future existence. This would give an early pointer as to how and why categories of work connected to animal husbandry or butchery, or tanning would become later “untouchable”. Buddha and his disciples seem to be over-aware of “superiority” of caste. If one tries to read up the extant early Buddhist literature, one can see “Brahmana” and “Sramana”(the term reserved for Buddhist aspirants and initiates) used equivalently. Moreover the Buddha is reluctant to be born in any other caste that “Kshatryia”or “Brahmin” in his next incarnation as Maitreya – because those are the “empowered” categories of society. So even the early Buddhists did not think their movement would abolish castes and hierarchies.
The more important feature relevant for our current discussion is the attitude towards women, women’s bodies and their dress and public behaviour. Many Vinayas and early texts portray women who freely move around in public in a disparaging tone, hinting at “low moral character”. Significantly the Buddha is claimed to have been reluctant in the early days to allow women to become members of his cloister or become nuns. After a lot of appeal from the women, he is supposed to have allowed them to join on condition that they follow certain restrictions on conduct in addition to those applicable for monks. Most interestingly these conditions pay a great deal of attention as to how the female body of the nun is to be “covered up” and require the nuns to be always under the authority of a male monk.
Bhikṣunīvibhaṅga, says that a bhikṣunī “should not show her nakedness when bathing. She is advised to either bathe in a screened-off area or to wear a bathing cloth”. Also another must-wear is kaṇṭhapraticchādana, “a robe that covers the rounding (of the breasts)”. All the Vinaya texts devote a lot of space to discussing the exact forms of coverage of different parts of the nun’s body – all adding at least two more items of covering-dress over and above the three reserved for monks.
The important thing to note here is that the nuns are segregated cloistered members of the movement, and their covering up in public is insisted upon as “setting an example” to “society” on exemplary “moral conduct”. This in turn implies that their covering up was not needed within a segregated cloister, and the general public was less concerned about covering up – so much so that the nuns had to be sent out to set an example.
But let us see what the non-Buddhists – before the advent of the Buddhists, were doing about women. Vandhul Malla, and his wife, a couple of martial arts experts and warriors, trained Visakha, the daughter of prosperous merchants, in warfare, chariot driving, weapons and “wrestling”. This daughter of merchants, married another merchant, set up her own household away from the extended family of her husbands, and ran her own business over and above that of her husband’s. This was the lady who was very much in public life, and with many other similar independent, business or otherwise productively engaged women – who were instrumental in promoting the early Buddhist “church”. They were not Buddhists, or the society that produced them were not Buddhists.
Chinese pilgrims visiting India from the middle of the 4th to the 8th century, similarly speak of the general freedom of movement of women, and the general law-abiding nature of citizens, with not much mention of crimes against women. This is the period when Buddhism was supposed to be in retreat, under huge repression from revivalist “Brahminism”.
Many of the women activists on Indian TV have referred to how “suttee” was stamped out by colonial regimes, as a model of how to deal with “patriarchal repressive traditions”. Interestingly, even as late as the first successful Muslim raid on Sindh portion of India in 712, as per the version of Islamic chroniclers whose claims on Indian society are claimed by professional historians to be “accurate” if they show non-Muslim society in any negative light (but “exaggeration” and “boasting” or “fanciful” if it shows Islam in negative light) – the mother of the reigning king, wife of Chach, had actually helped in the assassination of the previous king and her previous husband – because she had fallen in love with a visiting handsome young Brahmin to her husband’s court – Chach.
Note that a wife could remove her husband from power, marry her lover, without facing social hue and cry and opposition, and without being forced to commit “suttee”. She was a “Rajput” to boot too.
But with the advent of Muslims, Indian society goes quickly downhill. Rape, abduction, public humiliation and sale of captive women become the norm. Girls and women are no longer safe in the public domain, and educational or professional space is closed off for women. The extremely misogynist, and sexually commodifying memes in Islam and Sharia take over the definition of Indian womanhood.
In my “how Islam came to India” series, I have shown how Qasim’s successful raid (three previous ones had failed) had as one of its primary objectives (apart from making good the war chest) the capture and enslavement of Indian women. Thousands of Sindhi women were captured, inspected in the public like cattle, enslaved and given as rewards to jihadis or reserved for the Baghdad markets and for the private pleasure of the pious leaders of Islam around their Gulf dens. The Islamic attitude that entered India at this stage can be estimated from the Islamist side story that – Qasim was executed with typical Islamic barbarity (by being stitched within raw animal hide, and then nails driven into the bundle – the rawhide would dry up and strangulate him also at the same time). His crime : the two Sindhi princesses he had sent for the pious head of Islam – the Caliph’s personal pleasures – were found no longer to be “virgins” in the bed by the pious Caliph. Whether the girls themselves tore their hymen and accused Qasim of “rape” – as told in some versions of the story, or their hymen tore because of some other causes – the fact comes out that these enslaved girls were vulnerable to rape during transport and sale.
All those crying hoarse about “Indian” traditions, should take note of the explanatory note given as the speech by the princesses – to the effect that they warn the Caliph about not “trusting mere women” on accusations of “rape”, and that the Caliph should not have taken their word for it. This single story gives out the entire mindset of Islam that imposed itself on India. A girl crying rape was not to be believed easily against a man’s claim of innocence. Women are manipulative and they cry rape by tearing their own hymen. The status of a woman is that of “merely a woman/slave” and hence her words did not matter. And most significantly, where the “virginity” of the woman did not matter to the repressive culture “brahmin” Chach who married a widow and happily produced children with her – in the same period – the supreme leader of Islam has his goats shaken by discovering that his captive and enslaved bed-fellow was not a “virgin”.
How did women began to become a “problem” for Hindu households? In my post on “peaceful Sufis”, I have given the details on how the famous Sufi founder of Ajmer Sahrif obtained his wife. He “dreamed” that his prophet visited him and chastised him for not “keeping sunna” (not having a wife) and promptly the local Islamic commander arranged for a regional chief’s daughter to be captured and given to him that very “night”. The Sylheti “mouthpiece of peace” from Yemen, Shah Jalal – took up swords against the local non-Muslim ruler, whose daughter Anandi “promptly fell in love with this paragon of peace with a sword in hand on the battle field itself” (what was the girl doing there?), and was “immediately” “converted” and was married on the “battlefield”.
Shams Siraj Afif (fourteenth century) write “Firoz Shah was born in the year 709 H. (1309 C.E.). His father was named Sipahsalar Rajjab, who was a brother of Sultan Ghiyasuddin Tughlaq Ghazi. The three brothers, Tughlaq, Rajjab, and Abu Bakr, came from Khurasan to Delhi in the reign of Alauddin (Khalji), and that monarch took all the three in the service of the Court. The Sultan conferred upon Tughlaq the country of Dipalpur. Tughlaq was desirous that his brother Sipahsalar Rajjab should obtain in marriage the daughter of one of the Rais of Dipalpur. He was informed that the daughters of Ranamall Bhatti were very beautiful and accomplished. Tughlaq sent to Ranamall a proposal of marriage. Ranamall refused. Upon this Tughlaq proceeded to the villages (talwandi) belonging to Ranamall and demanded payment of the whole year’s revenue in a lump sum. The Muqaddams and Chaudharis were subjected to coercion. Ranamall’s people were helpless and could do nothing, for those were the days of Alauddin, and no one dared to make an outcry. One damsel was brought to Dipalpur. Before her marriage she was called Bibi Naila. On entering the house of Sipahsalar Rajjab she was styled Sultan Bibi Kadbanu. After the lapse of a few years she gave birth to Firoz shah“. If this could be accomplished by force by a regional officer, there was nothing to stop the king. In the seventeenth century, Jahangir writes in his Memoirs that after the third year of his accession, “I demanded in marriage the daughter of Jagat Singh, eldest son of Raja Man Singh (of Amer). Raja Ram Chandra Bundela was defeated, imprisoned, and subsequently released by Jahangir. Later on, says Jahangir, “I took the daughter of Ram Chandra Bandilah into my service (i.e. married her)”.
Ibn Battuta who visited India during Muhammad bin Tughlaq’s reign and stayed at the Court for a long time writes: “At (one) time there arrived in Delhi some female infidel captives, ten of whom the Vazir sent to me. I gave one of them to the man who had brought them to me. My companion took three girls, and – I do not know what happened to the rest.” On the large scale distribution of girl slaves on the occasion of Muslim festivals like Id, he writes: “First of all, daughters of Kafir (Hindu) Rajas captured during the course of the year, come and sing and dance. Thereafter they are bestowed upon Amirs and important foreigners. After this daughters of other Kafirs dance and sing. The Sultan gives them to his brothers, relatives, sons of Maliks etc. On the second day the durbar is held in a similar fashion after Asr. Female singers are brought out. the Sultan distributes them among the Mameluke Amirs”. Thousands of non-Muslim women were distributed in the above manner in later years.
The few incidents I quoted above, are just a few among thousands of such narratives – described with pride and glee by Islamic chroniclers. Wherever Muslims arrive for the first time in India, their chronicles show extreme surprise at the openness of Indian/Hindu womens’ public presence, their lack of “proper covering” (proper in the Islamic head-to-toe sense), and their relative freedom in society. The father of the doyen of Indian secularism – Hyder Ali, father of Tipu – is described in Nishan-i-Hyduri to have enslaved Coorgi women when he attacked Coorg – for their heinous crime of walking about bare-breasted or short dresses.
Thus it became a norm for Indian society – to be anxious and unhappy at the birth of the girl child, because the girl child brought rape, raid, and destruction of families, livelihoods, and entire communities. The girl child had to be married off early, hidden from the eager glances of every local muslim who felt it was his divine right to appropriate the beautiful of the kaffir for rape or other pleasures , and therefore not to be educated, not to be given skills to run businesses or professions, and closeted out of sunlight. Hidden away from the public place – so that even her existence did not come under the notice of Islamic hunters for female flesh.
Society takes a long time to come out of what had become a rationalization of impotence – especially if it had to be tolerated for more than a thousand years.
Indian culture is not about the violently misogynist memes of the Middle East, and Indians should not feel ashamed of their true culture – which was far different from the Islamic hybrid it is now pushed as for. It is a case of mistaken identities.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 08:43
by ramana
If you do root cause analysis the victims shouldn't have taken the bus with the perpetrators. If you dig deeper the underlying circumstances are the Delhi government enabling the bus transport mafia and the lax police measures in Delhi and antiquated law based on 1862 that enabled this gang rape.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 08:55
by Arjun
ramana wrote:If you do root cause analysis the victims shouldn't have taken the bus with the perpetrators. If you dig deeper the underlying circumstances are the Delhi government enabling the bus transport mafia and the lax police measures in Delhi and antiquated law based on 1862 that enabled this gang rape.
What?? You are actually blaming the Delhi government for not delivering on what it should have been its job to deliver ? You will get a lot of demented RNI / NRI minds extremely agitated, Ramana.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 09:32
by SaiK
The fish bone always point to police in any prevention of crime setup. Either they are part of it, or ineffective and useless.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 09:42
by Gus
today in daily thanthi - another rape and murder case in Noida. Writing from what I remember reading. Apparently the girl's folks went to the police station when the girl was missing and they say that the police told them she must have run off with a lover. Then she was found dead and molested. They also say a boy was harassing her and they had complained about the boy but nothing was done. The police seems to have arrested that boy.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 09:47
by Anantha
ramana wrote:If you do root cause analysis the victims shouldn't have taken the bus with the perpetrators. If you dig deeper the underlying circumstances are the Delhi government enabling the bus transport mafia and the lax police measures in Delhi and antiquated law based on 1862 that enabled this gang rape.
I have always considered taxes in India as a fine you pay for working/doing business in India. One gets very little in return, most of the money is swindled or given away in a way to perpetuate scams. You pay the fine to keep the
Govt away from you. I have also maintained that GOI does not exist. If one believes the Govt exists and try to avail of its services, you will be in trouble, namely in any sarkari office, law, court, protection from terrorists or any interaction with a Govt agency. Only way is to work around it.
Rule #1 GOI does not exist
Had the victims believed the above rule they would not have been in trouble.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 09:47
by shiv
Gus wrote:today in daily thanthi - another rape and murder case in Noida. Writing from what I remember reading. Apparently the girl's folks went to the police station when the girl was missing and they say that the police told them she must have run off with a lover. Then she was found dead and molested. They also say a boy was harassing her and they had complained about the boy but nothing was done. The police seems to have arrested that boy.
Sadly what happens in India is that if you have friends who can help contact senior police officials, the case will be attended soon. But at many local police stations the people in charge will not give a damn. The is partly due to lack of police manpower, which is due to lack of implementation of police reforms by state governments
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 09:55
by negi
Courtesy is what lacks in the IPS; it's not the individual's fault per se but as I have said it earlier too the fckn system was not changed from the British times . It was a part state machinery to boss over people and has not been revisited by the jokers who are glorified by sentimental fools that we Indians are as who got us our freedom.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 09:57
by shiv
negi wrote:Courtesy is what lacks in the IPS; it's not the individual's fault per se but as I have said it earlier too the fckn system was not changed from the British times . It was a part state machinery to boss over people and has not been revisited by the jokers who are glorified by sentimental fools that we Indians are as who got us our freedom.
I know several good IPS officers, but they are at the mercy of state politicians, who are in cahoots with criminals like land mafia or mining mafia.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 10:03
by habal
they may be good to you but need not be good towards everyone. Being randomly good does not really set any trends, because being uniformly good can be a draining task in itself. So unless a service-oriented, courteous approach to citizens is institutionalised, there won't be any change in public perception. The aspect of courtesy and respect while dealing with joe public is not institutionalised even post-independence.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 10:10
by negi
Shiv sir I was not talking about IPS officers; I was speaking about the service in general. The 'feeling' that they are there to serve/protect people is not there. One more big problem is we in India have this fckd system of having complex filtering mechanism to recruit IPS cadre. Why the hell do we need a IAS exam for IPS ? Many who clear that exam and are not able to make it to the Adminstrative/IFS side then take up IPS which means that it was not their first choice to begin with. Armed forces have been recruiting folks from colleges directly since decades if they have no complaints about quality of men they recruit why the hell does IPS need to use IAS exam to filter candidates ? I will tell you why; it's simple the chootiy@s in power never even gave it a thought in the first place, their gora masters were using the ICS so these guys stuck with it. I don't know who does the policy making of our country most of what is in place today is all English era relic in as is form.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 10:11
by member_20317
Re. Ramana ji, "I tend to agree with Bji, that higher incomes facilitate more dominant behavior."
Ramana ji, higher incomes facilitate more dominant behaviour in certain areas like management/economic affairs as a matter of rule. But in matters of social relationships there is enough evidence to the contrary. Most rich people in India can afford to do a lot of what is wrong and yet most behave in pretty a cogent, coherent manner. It is only in case of people with wrong sort of indoctrination/training/samskaars that you find this 'feeling of being ashamed at being Indian' and 'raping society syndrome'. Mostly this is bahanebazi or an escape mechanism.
Had Indian society really gone to the dogs you would not have seen so many people bothered and braving water cannons in the Delhi chill. Today I saw how Media was leading the fiance/boyfriend of the victim in basically condemning his own situ. This expression of public need has been successfully deflected by the powers that be, for now. What they are unaware of is that a bhara ghada (filled up pot) needs only a gentle strike to break it. These and their supporters will come to their sense in their own right time.
Till then we and the readers need to ask ourselves whether the 'solutions' being offered are a backdoor entry to Messianism or does it strengthen our hands in our individual capacity. Think of the impact of what is being suggested on your 'Self'. Anything that does not work for your Self/Aapa must be rejected else the infatuation will take us down and cause misery for our own people.
Baaki Ishwar ichha balwaan.

Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 10:18
by shiv
habal wrote:they may be good to you but need not be good towards everyone. Being randomly good does not really set any trends.
Naturally. That goes without saying. But why did you assume that I might not have taken this obvious fact into account before I certified some officers whom I know as good. They do exist.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 11:01
by SaiK
shiv wrote:negi wrote:Courtesy is what lacks in the IPS; it's not the individual's fault per se but as I have said it earlier too the fckn system was not changed from the British times . It was a part state machinery to boss over people and has not been revisited by the jokers who are glorified by sentimental fools that we Indians are as who got us our freedom.
I know several good IPS officers, but they are at the mercy of state politicians, who are in cahoots with criminals like land mafia or mining mafia.
shiv ji, honestly what is your solution for this?
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 11:15
by Sachin
harbans wrote:I understand the police being made more people friendly and sensitive. But what does directly accountable to the people mean?
The police is not going to change their behaviour, because today they know who their bosses are. That is the so called "elected representatives" of the people

. As
shiv pointed out, there are good police officers but sooner or later they are going to hit the road block, or start going on the established route. How much ever people friendly an officer becomes, the very same people would NOT be of much help in their careers. The police men also distrust the so civilians. A regular refrain I here from them is that they known common people befriend them, that is only expecting some favours from them (i.e there is no genuine friendship).
One way perhaps may become more friendly is by going the US way of electing "Sheriffs" (who are equivalent to our SPs) and "Police Chiefs". If a Sheriff is not liked by the people, he would lose the next elections and can then start looking for another job. Same goes for city police chiefs as well. But I fear "vote bank" policies would be a challenge here as well.
It's been 60 plus years British have left. They've changed those very laws in their own country, why have we not done so in ours?
Encouraging the commoners to "
hate the British" may also be a convenient tool by our pethatic politicians to turn away the anger of people on some unreachable identity. As I see it today's New Delhi based regimes are nothing but the old Moghul's or Viceroy's style of ruling the country. INC (who ruled the maximum) just do not wish a change in system which will screw up their future. "Socialism" etc. has been liberally used to keep people controlled and always to plead for their daily food from the government.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 12:39
by rkirankr
SaiK wrote:Anantha wrote:Anti Indians are having a field day attacking Hindu culture in desi and International media, especially the comments section. There are a few Rakshaks responding, I would request the B' Rakshaks to respond in comments section in major rags like Huffington post to clear the air.
That is because we have no guts to call a spade a spade.. Our sanatana dharma is no use to tackle the eye for an eye world. Of course, OT... unless it is part of the outrage.
Sorry Saik ji, but this is wrong. Our Sanathana Dharma is useful, we dhimmis and macualay putras have lost the ability to interpret it or understand it properly.
The Bhagavad Gita which converted a would WKK like to a raging killing machine for 18 days is part of the same Sanathana Dharma. It was this Dharma with which we were able to resist barbarians from west and still stay Hindus.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 12:40
by member_20317
Brihaspati ji what you pointed out about Hyder Ali, Ibn Batuta and Al beruni regarding their disdain for the semi-clad Mata ji of yore is actually where the MC/BC stuff got started. And because of the long time periods involved and the persistent attacks on Indic identity our people have taken to the airy-fairy ideas of 'Pedestal or dustbin' kind of my way or highway characterisations. I would like to see what the very same Tehreek namas that mention these new found morality mention about the crime scene of those periods.
They of the choosen people hated the SDRE ways so those who need to come up on their estimation should hate themselves and call out our own people with MC/BC gali galoch.
Which is not different from the colloquial usage of words like Fard/Farz and Harami which are used edgewise and with a lot of state/budhijeevi sponsored obfuscation and mind control techniques.
Which is actually what the ‘raping society system’ boils down to in my view.
No wonder their womenfolk today measure their statuses in their respective society on the continuum of inane nakedness and inane burkhahood. And IMO the enforcement of compliance with this dichotomous and essentially foreign behaviours is what is sought to be imposed on our people by those who are thekedaars of respective camps and those Indics who are gradually getting coopted in this char din ki chandni.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 12:49
by Raja Bose
Who is this ch@@tiya??
Delhi gang-rape victim as guilty as her rapists, Asaram Bapu says
"Only 5-6 people are not the culprits. The victim is as guilty as her rapists... She should have called the culprits brothers and begged before them to stop... This could have saved her dignity and life. Can one hand clap? I don't think so," Media reports quoted Asaram Bapu, as saying.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 12:52
by Singha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asaram_Bapu
Sant Shri Asharamji Bapu (Hindi: संत श्री आशारामजी बापू, born as Asumal Sirumalani on April 17, 1941), also endearingly called "Bapu Ji", is a self-realized, misogynistic Hindu Spiritual Guru from India. Bapu preaches the existence of One Supreme Conscious in every human being and represents a confluence of Bhakti yoga, Gnana yoga and Karma yoga. He also believes that women are inferior to men.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 12:55
by Singha
I think its all part of the B-team plan for sundry people who are not remotely connected to any of this like mohan bhagwat et al to create some kind of tamasha every day, soak up the tv channels and print media and bury the real issues like DP corruption and who is behind those illegal bus mafia.
this they are doing very well, media has been told to seek out these not-so-bright folks who will immediately lash out and fall into the trap.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 13:03
by Raja Bose
The powers need not worry. WTH has time to worry about some dead girl when everyday they have to run after electricity, water and bus wallah? They don't need a plan-B when their plan-A for the last 60 years is working so wonderfully!
Bapu ji in his wiki picture looks like that charasi lawyer Mule in the movie Satya.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 13:35
by vera_k
What Asaram Bapu said is a very Gandhian response, and would be popular with a certain generation of Indian. It is good if media shows up non-violence to be hypocritical and not particularly useful.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 13:44
by Arjun
Raja Bose wrote:Who is this ch@@tiya??
Delhi gang-rape victim as guilty as her rapists, Asaram Bapu says
"Only 5-6 people are not the culprits. The victim is as guilty as her rapists... She should have called the culprits brothers and begged before them to stop... This could have saved her dignity and life. Can one hand clap? I don't think so," Media reports quoted Asaram Bapu, as saying.
Seems a complete jackass, this Besharam Bapu character.... (unless this is yet another handiwork of media dorks)
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 13:52
by shiv
How does Assaram B'Poo know that she did not do exactly that?
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 13:56
by partha
shiv wrote:How does Assaram B'Poo know that she did not do exactly that?
Good point. We need to probe this. This Asaram guy could be the seventh person involved.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 14:16
by member_20317
http://www.timesnow.tv/INDIA/Asaram-Bap ... 418333.cms
The crawler quote is presented below for your kind reference:
'She was travelling in a white bus. When the rapist assaulted her. My heart did pain, but if the victim would have taken 'Diksha' then this would not have happened to her. And even if one of the accused had taken 'diksha' then he would have stopped others from doing so'
I am damn sure by now Asaram Bapu was the 8th guy.
But I am sure he did say something else that can be used. Lets just ignore what is being quoted by the TV channel. If it walks like .... talks like.... then it must be a conspiracy....I agree.
I was not interested in Asaram bapu. I usually try to avoid babas that are not dead yet and have been dead for quite sometime and gone through the canonization process of the church of India. Considering Asaram Bapu is close to Sangh people I looked around and this horrendous comment came out. Such a satanic stance.
But considering the sensibilities of some guys here I have decided to confess and submit myself to reform. Kindly tolerate me and Asaram bapu since we did not know what we said/did. On second thought while it seems like Asaram Bapu has given no indication of repentence to the church, kindly feel free to burn him like the witch he seems, but kindly do grant me the grace of heavenly mercy. I can speak English too.
Added later:
It is the exact same clip on timesnow times of India and India today. India today goes a step further they do not have the clip of the quote the media is using with three strategically placed dots used at two place in the quote.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 15:19
by svinayak
ramana wrote:
Philip, In my last trip what I found was the consternation and exasperation at the BJP for being unable and unwilling to be the opposition party in India. Many expressed their disbelief at the two party system when the Opposition wants to just occupy the benches in Lok Sabha and hardly do anything.
The media is used for anti BJP propaganda for a long time even after election
These events have to be covered by the media alone so that INC is exposed. THis will take long time since the grip on the media is strong
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 16:51
by RamaY
Raja Bose wrote:Who is this ch@@tiya??
Delhi gang-rape victim as guilty as her rapists, Asaram Bapu says
"Only 5-6 people are not the culprits. The victim is as guilty as her rapists... She should have called the culprits brothers and begged before them to stop... This could have saved her dignity and life. Can one hand clap? I don't think so," Media reports quoted Asaram Bapu, as saying.
If this is what he said, he is idiot of first kind. I am glad he opened his mouth

Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 16:54
by Lalmohan
ass-slam-bapu sounds like he's a graduate of LMU
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 17:47
by Gus
'seculars' don't have to worry as long as there are these types of 'rss' types around.
Focus should always be on ruling establishment for mis-governance and non-governance. Others should not provide fodder for diversion.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 17:59
by peter
Gus wrote:'seculars' don't have to worry as long as there are these types of 'rss' types around.
Focus should always be on ruling establishment for mis-governance and non-governance. Others should not provide fodder for diversion.
Agree. But after all it is a democracy and saying what is on your mind is your birth right. It is good to know what every person stands for. I would say more jokers should speak their mind.
Regarding the "good police officers" comment someone made it is probably a misnomer today. Most all of the police think that they are "above" the normal citizenry as if they have some more "rights" then all of us. This attitude starts obviously at the top.
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 18:31
by Sushupti
Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.
Posted: 07 Jan 2013 18:36
by Sushupti