Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul 2014

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Aug 2014 09:25

Gagan wrote:Probably the Pakis in the ISIS displayed their pakistaniyat. These louts are idiots of the first order

Now i recall, there was huge influx of Paki in Kurdistan for the last 2-3 years. They could be seen in Erbil along with BDs doing menial stuff.

partha · Post by **partha** » 21 Aug 2014 09:30

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/m ... 335700.ece

In March this year, members of the Pakistani establishment laid out the red carpet for an unusual visitor. The gentleman, who will not be named, was an envoy of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), an overseas supporter of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), and was said to be carrying a message from Narendra Modi. As a result, the visitor was hosted to lunch by the Foreign Affairs Adviser Sartaj Aziz and the Foreign Office India desk, met with Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s key adviser Tariq Fatemi, and was even invited to the Army General Headquarters.

The message he carried was simple: that once elected, the BJP government would pursue talks and push business engagement with Pakistan. He indicated that an invitation would be sent shortly after Mr. Modi took over, to set the ball rolling. There was, however, a rider. If there was a terror attack, said the RSS envoy, one like Mumbai 26/11 that could be traced back to Pakistan, their hands would be tied. A counter-attack on some part of Pakistan-controlled territory would be inevitable.

Who's the RSS envoy?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 21 Aug 2014 09:39

Saudis came by gifted billions to Pakistanis. http://www.dawn.com/news/1093342 bunch of Pakistani ex servicemen were recruited too, to prevent Arab spring in friendly Arab countries. I wouldn't be surprised at all if mango abduls serve as soosai bombers in ISIS and if they have military advisors from "retired rogue" ISI. The Saudi fella who was in charge of Syria revolution from his posting in Lebanon is the new Saudi ambassador to Pakistan. On top of it, retired rogue ISI chief pasha is intelligence advisor to UAE.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 21 Aug 2014 09:50

The TFTAs are eating ..... Rice. http://www.dawn.com/news/1126733/securi ... nd-all-day

We are only given a steady diet of rice, nothing else. There is no tea in the evening or lassi for breakfast. But worst of all is the boredom; there is nothing to do here. At least I have a chair, my boys have to lie on the grass all day,” he says, gesturing towards a group of uniformed policemen stretched out on the green belt next to him.

Most members of the Islamabad police posted in the Red Zone positioned themselves at the foot of the viewing gallery on Parade Lane and enjoyed the music blaring from the PTI enclosure.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 21 Aug 2014 10:10

partha wrote:
Who's the RSS envoy?

i really doubt that story.

this is just a play on that whatshisname who met that chief suar saeed. they were alleging that it was modi who sent that guy then too.

partha · Post by **partha** » 21 Aug 2014 10:31

ISIS ka matlab kya?

ISI Soldiers.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 21 Aug 2014 10:46

There is no question that LeT is involved with ISIS, in terms of personnel support and quite a number of mid-level operators, including plenty ex-Pak army types. It is just an example of LeT gaining international exposure and experience before it moves steadily further west. It already has moved into the core areas, but it is still I think nascent and finding its level... these chaps will move back home and bring in field experience as well.

Apart from the Aafia Siddiqui issue, look at the video from Vice News (the first one about IS posted on page 3 in the Islamophobia thread). Towards the end of it, a kid of about 11 starts out about the places to liberate, the second one to be mentioned is "Kashmir" and then he stops, and looks at his prompter briefly before continuing... It is clear that no 11-year-old in northern Iraq is going to get into his head that J&K is to be liberated without some Pak directly or indirectly putting it there. If you have ever been to northern Iraq, or even the 2nd tier cities of Syria like Homs, Aleppo and so on, you will instinctively know that Kashmir is very close to non-existent in their frames of reference on just about anything. It has to be put there.

This is happening now, not just by Pak influence as mentioned above, but also as a quid pro quo by the Gulfies for the provision of what is, essentially, Paki cannon fodder. The trouble for the Euro-American bunch is, not all will die. The returnees represent the spill-over that must be controlled, and it can be ultimately - because in the final analysis, such a spillover is part of the cost of keeping the region from Morocco to Afghanistan off-balance (probably an understatement).

This is in all our interests (non-Muslim), and the Turks and Gulfies, as well as the Paks, must be regarded as de facto allies in this endeavour even though, and in fact helpfully because, they are themselves factionalised and bat for different sides. The Turks & Gulfies are big trading partners that provide great financial benefit to non-Muslims around them, while at the same time being at the blade edge of the unfolding unstable situation that is yet to reach any equilibrium of instability if we can call it that. Islam is the tool that will help with this, and it is the greatest weapon that non-Muslims have. Never lose sight of this. It is Islam, real Islam of the LET-ISIS type, that enables us to even consider generating and maintaining this equilibrium of instability; and enables us, more rationally, to engage in the classic realpolitic of power based on territory, wealth, intellectual capital, etc.

And in a general sense the unfolding instability is probably also what is best for the Muslim zone between Afghanistan and Morocco. Because if they did get their act together and behave even remotely rationally, within the Islamic construct, they would probably have to be nuked.

We, i.e. India and each of the other countries directly or indirectly benefiting from this situation, only need to ensure that the spillover (and there always is spillover) is minimised, containable and explainable.

As for the Muslim Zone, they can always think their way out of this - that is to say, become less Muslim by reimagining and reinterpreting the tenets of the silly faith system they cling to because of fear of open thought and clear reason. For the foreseeable future, I doubt they will. They will feel a need to kill a lot more of each other, and some non-Muslims as well, before that might possibly happen. But if they do make that change, then they will become more like the non-Muslims - and there are many many individual examples of this already.

Regrettably, in fact, Mohammed's Islam is doomed over the long-term. Regrettable because there are few tools as useful to a practical person with reason, power and the scientific method on his side than an absolute, immutable ideology which is an unchangeable birth identity based on faith, and which seeks to rule the world. Still, it will be around for a couple of centuries yet, I bet.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 21 Aug 2014 12:10

Time for a ramble once again gentle readers!

The recent calling off of Foreign Secretary level talks with Pakistan is not a trigger response to what the Pakistani Ambassador did in Delhi. It was a culmination of a clear message given to Nawaz when he was invited for Modi's Swearing In ceremony. That message was simple.

(i) Cease and desist all terror activities and networks against India. All incidents, that occur, whether by State or Non-state actors will be held against the Pakistan government

(ii) There has to be a clear movement and accountability in the Mumbai Carnage trial and the masterminds must be punished, handed over to India or eliminated. Similarly there is a list of persons wanted by India in the earlier Mumbai blasts. There should be movement along the same lines.

(iii) If Nawaz is not able to deliver the above, there will be no talks of any kind. The actions will be evaluated not their statements. If the terror war continues, then the India will exercise a slew of options in retaliation and no sovereignty considerations will be considered.

(iv) If he is able to deliver the above, then in a calibrated manner Pakistan will be ensured of a peace dividend and allowed to partake on a South Asian economic growth story that will be anchored by India

(v) India will continue to be present in Afghanistan and will not allow Pakistani proxies to gain power there.

Parallely, there has been a comprehensive review of options and analysis of the situation in Pakistan. The GoI will have to plan for different outcomes as the painfully slow Pakistani descent to civil war and anarchy unravels. The backers of Pakistan, would like to ensure that the entity that has served them well continues to exist. Hence the bank rolled operations and putsch that is orchestrated across the world to engineer regime change has an active Pakistani Chapter.

It is to be noted that there is an India Chapter too and we saw that morph into the usual motley crowd called AAP and others. That failed here because of the counter actions taken. The establishment in India is now aware that Pakistani entity is now caught up in a cross current of powers that want to sustain it, after neutering it, and Jihadi networks that want it to be a base of pure Islam. The ruling elite of Pakistan is now getting increasingly confused and consequently increasingly nervous as events take their own velocity and direction.

This was something that people who matter in the Indian Government were aware. However, a decade was lost to drift and marching to some distant drum beats. That has now stopped. There is now a realization that India cannot be a mere bystander, nor is it in our interest to participate in either saving Pakistani establishment or plotting to destroy it. What is in our interest is to how to handle the fall out and ensure that we are not faced with a drag on our resources when the entity collapses.

There is a section amongst Pakistani elite, that realizes that what will happen to Pakistani finally depends on what India will do or not do. They know that the usual backers of Pakistani survival will find the cost of doing that increasingly prohibitive and the returns that they gain by doing so is increasingly diminishing. Indeed, over the last few years, for all the backers the strategic benefit of Pakistan has reduced substantially and the only major benefit that Pakistan provides is that it can be a break on Indian ambitions and growth.

The recent watershed elections means that India is on the move and once it consolidates and cleanses the system (which is seriously compromised today) then that ability of Pakistan will also be diminished. That would be the time when the 3 powers that back Pakistan - the US, China and Saudi Arabia - will see the reality and accept the same. That this artificial entity has no longer any value. When that happens, they will of course do their best to work with the resultant entities and rump state to try and forge a new set of allies and balance India.

That is why it is imperative for Indian planners to keep a watch on the slow implosion and make sure that the resulting scenario does not work against Indian interests. Towards that, the Indian Government must take steps now to ensure that there is a connect to the very survival of the resulting entities post Pakistan on having a stable and security relationship with India.

The rise of India is thus something that will work for the future benefit of the present residents of the artificial entity. For these populations to realize that they have to go through a cleansing process of going through and experiencing a pure Islamic regime. It is only then that they will realize the futility of adopting a world view based on an intrinsically foreign ideology that masquerades as a religion. When that mental barrier is broken the residents of this artificial entity will have to find first an ideological home that is rooted in their DNA. They will see that in India that is resurgent, confident and realize how far they have travelled away from it.

This may take a decade or so. The state of Pakistan will probably go before that is my estimate.

Just the usual ramble, take it for what it is worth!

partha · Post by **partha** » 21 Aug 2014 12:56

Remember all that pre OBL raid Paki rhetoric about Pak-US relationship? "mutual respect", "equal footing" etc.

Now, it is looking more like a master slave relationship.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1126759/no-ext ... eptable-us

WASHINGTON: The United States has said that no extra-constitutional transfer of power in Pakistan was acceptable and warned that those “attempting to impose these changes” should not do so.

vina · Post by **vina** » 21 Aug 2014 13:47

Hmm. You learn something new everyday. Mohtarma Bina Shah argues in an oped in NY Times on Feminism, that Pakistan was founded on BOTH Islamic and Secular principles.

Hmm. Can you be both a sovirgin and not sovirgin at the same time ? But that apart, this is easy

Pakistan Islamic Secular State - abbreviated as PISS , that dovetails well with the other one ,Pakistan Institute of Strategic Studies that abbreviates into the same thing.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 21 Aug 2014 14:16

India should be able to use the rise of ISIS to its advantage, by breaking the Muslim votebanks in India. When the Muslim votebank breaks, Pakistan will unravel faster.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 21 Aug 2014 14:43

partha wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/m ... 335700.ece

In March this year, members of the Pakistani establishment laid out the red carpet for an unusual visitor. The gentleman, who will not be named, was an envoy of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), an overseas supporter of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), and was said to be carrying a message from Narendra Modi. As a result, the visitor was hosted to lunch by the Foreign Affairs Adviser Sartaj Aziz and the Foreign Office India desk, met with Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s key adviser Tariq Fatemi, and was even invited to the Army General Headquarters.
The message he carried was simple: that once elected, the BJP government would pursue talks and push business engagement with Pakistan. He indicated that an invitation would be sent shortly after Mr. Modi took over, to set the ball rolling. There was, however, a rider. If there was a terror attack, said the RSS envoy, one like Mumbai 26/11 that could be traced back to Pakistan, their hands would be tied. A counter-attack on some part of Pakistan-controlled territory would be inevitable.
Who's the RSS envoy?

Irrespective of whether there was a RSS envoy or not, one thing is clear - these so called liberals want talks to continue irrespective of Pak actions. She starts off saying that the Pak views BJP favorbly as they think they can actually do something (unlike Congress)Modi;s invitation to Sharif was seen kindly and his "eliminate poverty" was also well recieved.
As a result, Vaidik had unprecedented access and even met Hafiz.
She makes a cursory reference to the LoC firing and Pak meeting the rats.
The PM called off the talks and she says that this is not the approach to take with Pak and our neighbors. The PM has now made it clear that Pak is a enemy. She ends with this:

“Mystify, mislead and surprise the enemy,” wrote Chinese warrior Sun Tzu in The Art of War. With his move, Mr. Modi has certainly done all three, even giving the impression that he still regards Pakistan as an enemy to defeat and not as a neighbour he wishes to resolve issues with. Sun Tzu may have other things to say about a policy that mystifies and confounds everyone else as well. Surprise in such cases can at best only be a tactic in foreign policy, not a long-term strategy.

So, what she is hinting at is:
All was well and we EVEN got Shri Hafiz talking to us, Calling off talks was a surprise and not just Pak but other neighbors will also be worried, Modi has made Pak an enemy by this action, oh what will happen to trade?,oh what will happen at UNGA next month?, this is not a long term strategy but a just a tactic.
Strange that not even one paragraph was devoted to Paki mischief, she equates Pak to all other neighbors., she thinks Pak can behave like a total nutter but the onus must lie always on India , she thinks Pak is not an enemy , that trade is more paramount than Indian security.
I think this is a good template article which Indian liberals use . It has all the usual line of arguments.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 21 Aug 2014 14:52

The pissful vote bank in India is already being split. Ask Mullah Mullayam. Those with lalu will also have to be split. Once this happens, the dominoes shall fall. When is the next Muharram? Can't hardly wait.

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 21 Aug 2014 15:19

Malaysian police looking for Pakistani suspect who 'stole from accounts of MH370 passengers'

KUALA LUMPUR:
The Malaysian police are looking for a suspect, a Pakistani, for allegedly stealing from the accounts of people who were aboard missing flight MH370. The suspect is believed to have had some of the money deposited into his bank account through an online transfer.

The search is part of an investigation in which a Malaysian bank officer and her husband were charged on Wednesday with forgery, theft and other offences after allegedly stealing more than $30,000 from accounts of four people aboard MH370.

Nur Shila Kanan and her mechanic husband Basheer Ahmad Maula Sahul Hameed pleaded not guilty in a Kuala Lumpur court to a total of 16 charges, their lawyer Hakeem Aiman Affandi said.

The couple are alleged to have withdrawn a total of 110,643 ringgit from the accounts of two Malaysians and two Chinese nationals who were on the Malaysia Airlines flight. The withdrawals were allegedly made via ATMs and electronic transfers between May 14 and July 8, Hakeem added.

Cheers

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 21 Aug 2014 15:20

I am wondering if we are reading the Indian Govts decision to cancel the talks wrongly. Is it to help Nawaz from Im the Dim's challenge.

We all know Dim's views on kashmir. With the talks cancelled and the envoy's continuing to meet Hurriyat, Dim cant accuse Nawaz of sacrificing kashmir and shout "islam khatrey main hain".

This single decision has bolstered Nawaz as standing up to India.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 21 Aug 2014 15:42

RCase wrote:^^^
All roads (of terrorism)~~lead to~~ start from Pakistan.

There! Corrected it. The earlier version would have made pakis the victims.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Aug 2014 16:14

Ms. Suhasini Haider is a snake. She is indulging in fear mongering that Nepal, Bhutan et al are also wondering about the 'mystifying & confusing' diplomacy by Modi. Did they tell her that? Her agenda, like that of The Hindu and in fact the peacewallahs, JNUs, Communists, INC et al is very clear. Create fear that this government is communal, irrational, inexperienced and warmongering. The Paki perfidy, its aggression, terrorism, subterfuge, double-speak and innumerable such other things are never spoken of and it is always India's responsibility and her responsibility alone to make Pakistan feel happy. How can an Indian fault GoI when it puts pressure on Pakistan even on a rare occasion? Either these types of people are on US payrolls, or have sold out to the usual Pakistani hospitality or both. I always rebut by sending in my comments (and they do get published online atleast, not in printed paper though) and I encourage fellow forummers to do the same.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 21 Aug 2014 16:41

Ms Haider is insinuating that India's treatment of Pakistan would send a message to other countries in the neighborhood that India would treat them the same. This is nonsense, unless other countries think that they are Pakistan and/or send terrorists in they wont be treated like Pakistan. The basic issue that none of the retards, in their hate for Modi, want to talk about is this: Pakistan is encouraging seditious tendencies among Indian citizens by pretty much running a parallel power center from their Embassy. This must stop. At the very least, India cannot allow this to happen on Indian soil. "Traditions" apart, by using their embassy to negotiate with India and with the Hurrirats Pakistan is pretty much putting India and the Hurrirats in the same pedestal. Is this what these idiots want? Also, nobody said that GoI should stop talking to Hurrirats to get their views and buy in. Let them talk all they want to GoI's envoy. Why are they running to Pakistan with their demands? The elephant in the room is that this is a rap in the knuckle of Hurrirats. It sends them a message that if they want their demands and wishes to be heard, either they participate in elections or talk to GoI's envoy. They cant send their demands by proxy through Pakistan.

Here is a sampling of the insane logic by some of the people.

Prem Shankar Jha writes that he personally knows that if Hurrirats are terrified that they'd be assassinated by ISI if they dont play ball with Pakistan. So India should be accommodating whenever they want to meet the Paki ambassador. This is remarkable for its idiocy. Who asked them to get on ISI's payroll and influence in the first place? Should "poor fellow he is being blackmailed by ISI so lets agree to his demands" be part of India's diplomacy? What is the difference between them being paid off by ISI vs being threatened by ISI -- they remain essentially ISI's proxies now. Should we be sympathetic to ISI proxies who are proxies because they are being threatened vs proxies because they are being paid off?

Shiva vij writes that if we dont talk to Pakistan, Pakistan will have no options except for terrorism. This is again insane. Nobody wanted to cut off talks with Pakistan, India merely said they should either talk to us or to Hurrirats. It is their move now. Secondly, when India was talking to Pakistan in 1998 and 2008, did Pakistan refrain from indulging in adventurism? Who in their right mind believes that talking to Pakistan will reduce their propensity to send in terrorists? If you apply the same logic, the most peaceful period in India-Pak relations were between 1972 and 1982. You do the math. Maybe we should invade them again.

MSA writes that it is "tradition" for Pakistanis to meet Hurrirats. Well it is "tradition" for India-Pak talks to fail and for Pakis to send in terrorists. Maybe we should follow those traditions too.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 Aug 2014 18:25

SSji, AnujanJi, et. al. IMO, the real elephant in the room with all these WKK and "liberal" nit-wits is that at the end of the day, they have no issue with acceding to TSP and KM demands for secession. And in their worldview, these so called "uninterrupted" and "uninterruptible" talks are a way of doing so in slow motion through that bogus MushRat formula that MMS came up with and senile Prem Shankar Jha touts in the article AnujanJi cites. And incidentally, this is exactly TSP's 3.5's position too, US and others.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 21 Aug 2014 18:28

(More) Rantings from the Demented Mind of D'Immy Kaun? (No link, you all know its Yawn!).

the government is a “servant of the US” that “polishes the shoes of the Americans”.

he would personally take the new IG of Islamabad to jail

"In my passion, I may punch you!”

he would stay in the Red Zone, “for as long as I live”

He says he will fight until the last ball

“Are you ready?” Imran asks the crowd. “Are you ready to stand with me?”

Today, you have to stand with the captain

Pakistanis, today is your test

And the best one yet:

D'Immy asked “if Pakistanis are children of a lesser god”.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 21 Aug 2014 18:31

Anujan wrote:MSA writes that it is "tradition" for Pakistanis to meet Hurrirats. Well it is "tradition" for India-Pak talks to fail and for Pakis to send in terrorists. Maybe we should follow those traditions too.

Its also part of tradition that an insider has usually let the barbarians in. Ask Raja Dahir.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 21 Aug 2014 18:35

As against the Wannabe Pakis MSA, Abhadra, Burkha, Ghouse, Dhoti, Bhadwaa, Niraakar, Bandar et al here is a Indian writing on what India should do.

Dealing with Pakistan: A calibrated strategy.

The cancellation of talks between the Foreign Secretaries of India and Pakistan raises several questions. The key one: what now? Does India have a coherent policy to deal with Pakistan now that a red line has been drawn over Pakistan’s High Commissioner meeting Hurriyat separatists?

In an article on these pages last January, I’d suggested a robust but calibrated strategy to deal with Pakistan. This piece elaborates on the steps India needs to take following the break in the dialogue process.

First, if talks with Pakistan are to resume, they must involve both its government and the military. India must set the agenda for that dialogue and the terms of engagement. Action on the 26/11 trial in Pakistan is the first red marker. More than five years after the Mumbai terror attack, we must set a timeframe for Pakistan to bring the perpetrators of that crime to book. What if Pakistan does not? Consequences must follow. Future dialogue, visas, people-to-people contacts and trade must be made conditional to Pakistan satisfying the stipulations laid out in the points above.

Pakistan is a serial offender. Its army, jihadists and mullahs form a troika sworn to enmity with India. Lower infiltration levels in the Kashmir Valley over the past two years are not due to a softening of this troika’s stand but because Pakistan’s military is pinned down fighting on its western border and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa the terrorist-Frankenstein it created to destabilise India.

Indian peaceniks (aka paid Paki agents) say there is a peace constituency building among the middle-class in Pakistan. But scratch beneath the surface – including Pakistani “liberal” media and civil society – and apologia for quasi-jihadism rapidly emerges. The veneer is wafer-thin. Much of it is expedient pretence.

The second step in this calibrated strategy: if LoC violations and terrorist incidents continue, downgrade Pakistan to consular status, allowing its embassy limited diplomatic functionality till Rawalpindi GHQ delivers on 26/11 and the other terrorist-criminal acts it has perpetrated on India.

Pakistan possesses whatever international credibility it does by being associated with India. Downgrade that relationship and you downgrade Pakistan internationally. Its relationship with the United States is that of a rentier client-state. (A BRF follower

)

The third phase in our Pakistan policy should focus on economics. As with diplomatic relations, Pakistan needs India. India doesn’t need Pakistan. Pakistan’s GDP of $250 billion is barely 12% of India’s and growing at less than 2% a year. India’s trade volume, the sum of its annual global exports and imports is nearly $1 trillion and dwarfs Pakistan’s. Make future trade ties, important to Pakistan’s moribund economy, conditional to Islamabad delivering on terrorism.

Finally, the fourth step: India is unduly sensitive about “internationalising” its conflict with Pakistan. It should instead make it clear to the world that Pakistan’s repeated bluff about holding a plebiscite over Kashmir’s disputed status is just that – bluff. All 1948 UNSC resolutions Pakistan constantly refers to – and wilfully distorts – demand that Pakistan vacate PoK before a plebiscite can even be considered in the whole of Jammu & Kashmir. (This and the willful change of status of the Northern Territories , Baltistan , Giltistan and handover of portion of Kashmir to China by Pakistan has changed the staus quo which has vacated the UN conditionality's, India should continuously be harping on this)

By taking Pakistan’s state terrorism to international fora India can legally shame-and-name a country globally accepted as the epicentre of terrorism – and make it pay damages and reparations. War crimes committed by Serb army generals and politicians in the Balkan conflicts of the 1990s have been tried and punishment handed out by an international war crimes tribunal in the Hague.

All of this does not mean we reduce Pakistan to a pariah state – it has achieved that without outside help. We must continue to talk, to engage and to trade – but with conditionalities and on terms laid down with absolute clarity.You can’t change your neighbours. But, with the right strategy, you can change their behaviour.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 Aug 2014 18:38

Ideally, and speaking for myself, and I assume many here would agree, unless TSP is hit and hit hard militarily such that its army and ISI are visibly humiliated by India like US's OBL raid or 1971, TSP is not going to behave.

Absence that, at least taking a tough stand, raising the costs incrementally for TSP's perfidy, maintaining a strong defense so that TSP's terrorist provocations don't succeed beyond pin pricks, and covert support to those taking on TSPA is India's best bet. Of course, US, fixated with its immutable equal equal policy that serves it well, will surely use its economic might (keeping Paki terrorist infrastructure float, alive, and kicking), CIA, and peeping Tom toys could help TSP and thwart and check-mate even a robust defensive posture by India. But nevertheless, that is India's best response to US and TSP perfidy.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2014 19:26

shiv wrote:Fair writes that LeT is Ahl-e hadith and is the only organization that is totally pro-Pakistan. JeM, LeJ etc are Deobandi organizations that are anti-Paki state.

ISIS, supported by Wahhabis are Sunni Ahl e hadith.

ISIS chief Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi released his first video on saturday and that confirmed he is Salafi in ideology confirming the apprehension that he belongs to Wahabi Salafi groups not belong to Sunni as Media worldwide is claiming. - See more at: http://kohram.in/isis-chief-abu-bakr-al ... ztyeP.dpuf

Shiv, I wouldnt put it past the morons in Dupleecity to have off shore balanced the Syrian ISIS venture to ISI to get them in good books. And ISI used LeT to spread the cheer.

Romans used to crucify their opponents.
Turks used to impale their opponents.
Muhammad & Wannabe Arabs, Bakis behead their opponents.
Nazis gas their opponents.

UK and US saddle their opponents with debt.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2014 20:06

ramana wrote:
shiv wrote:Fair writes that LeT is Ahl-e hadith and is the only organization that is totally pro-Pakistan. JeM, LeJ etc are Deobandi organizations that are anti-Paki state.

ISIS, supported by Wahhabis are Sunni Ahl e hadith.

Shiv, I wouldnt put it past the morons in Dupleecity to have off shore balanced the Syrian ISIS venture to ISI to get them in good books. And ISI used LeT to spread the cheer.

Romans used to crucify their opponents.
Turks used to impale their opponents.
Muhammad & Wannabe Arabs, Bakis behead their opponents.
Nazis gas their opponents.

UK and US saddle their opponents with debt.

I don't actually understand any advantage that LeT gets out of this. To me it looks like a self goal. Going back to fractal recursivity - just as the Paki army lost control of some of its jihadis, I wonder if LeT has lost control over some of its own cadres.

Unless I am mistaken, ISIS is fighting Shias, among others. That means Pakistan will have to fight Iran. I would love to see that happening but I can't believe that these Einsteins are so screwed up.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2014 20:16

The Pakis have an outfit called Sipahi Sahiba that kills Shias. It got disarrayed after its leader was hallaled. They might have morphed into LeT. ISIS killing Shias in Iraq could be a way of asserting the greeness of LeT as they face threat from TTP of Lal Masjid infamy.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2014 20:24

ramana wrote:The Pakis have an outfit called Sipahi Sahiba that kills Shias. It got disarrayed after its leader was hallaled. They might have morphed into LeT. ISIS killing Shias in Iraq could be a way of asserting the greeness of LeT as they face threat from TTP of Lal Masjid infamy.

Ms Fair actually says that the LeT is popular n Pakistan precisely because they are rooting for unity between other Islamic sects even though they are Wahhabi. It is Deobandi outfits like LeJ who are the Shia kilers. But by joining ISIS, LeT is doing all those things outside Pakistan that Fair (in her research) claims thy are not doing in Pakistan.

That aside, hasn't ISIS also threatened fourfather Saudis?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 21 Aug 2014 21:16

They have threatened to demolish the Mecca should they take over the holy cities

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 21 Aug 2014 21:32

ramana wrote:The Pakis have an outfit called Sipahi Sahiba that kills Shias. It got disarrayed after its leader was hallaled. They might have morphed into LeT. ISIS killing Shias in Iraq could be a way of asserting the greeness of LeT as they face threat from TTP of Lal Masjid infamy.

you are referring to moulana azam tariq - he was gunned down in 2003. LeT did 2001 parliamentary attack which IIRC was their first major attack..but they've been active since late 90s.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 21 Aug 2014 21:37

shiv wrote:I don't actually understand any advantage that LeT gets out of this. To me it looks like a self goal. Going back to fractal recursivity - just as the Paki army lost control of some of its jihadis, I wonder if LeT has lost control over some of its own cadres.

Unless I am mistaken, ISIS is fighting Shias, among others. That means Pakistan will have to fight Iran. I would love to see that happening but I can't believe that these Einsteins are so screwed up.

I never really got the LeT's 'global ambitions' reconcile with them being pak army controlled org. recall the willy brigitte guy arrested in aus for trying to blow up something? now why would pak army want that kind of attention, unless they are just threatening this to extort money?

I don't see how LeT getting involved with ISIS benefits pak army. Are things that hot between Iran and pak now?

maybe they want USA to stay in iraq too?

partha · Post by **partha** » 21 Aug 2014 21:51

^
Globalization of Kashmir issue. If LeT goes global and embeds itself into jihadi orgs like ISIS, Pak thinks it may be easy to channel the attention of world wide jihadis to 'liberate Kashmir'. Just like US is hated all over the jihadi world, Pak wants the attention of jihadis all over on India.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2014 21:58

Gus wrote: I never really got the LeT's 'global ambitions' reconcile with them being pak army controlled org.

That only means that Pak army is more Islamized that we are willing to recognise. Pak army 2 is now bigger than Army 1

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 21 Aug 2014 21:58

they channeled hardened afghan jihadis into kashmir and that did not really change anything (except body count in the beginning, which we adapted and reduced).

imo anyways, the bigger threat to india is not from jihadis outside, but indian muslims becoming jihadis.

i still don't see it.

sadhana · Post by **sadhana** » 21 Aug 2014 22:16

There are answers to all your questions here(this was posted here before):

Arif Jamal on Lashkar e Taiba and the book he wrote on them. It is worse than you think it is. They actually believe in global jihad. Zaid Hamid actually believes in ghazwa e hind. Pakistan Army is comfortable with all of that and is too compromised to do anything when one day JuD changes its mind about attacking Pakistan.

PS: After I listened to this, I was happy to be enlightened of course but also disturbed that even Indians who follow Pak jihadis' antics so closely haven't so far understood the depth of Pak jihadis' ideological commitment to killing us and/or 'ruling' over India in their pursuit of destiny. Pak Army is willing to go along because of one or more of the following:
1. it agrees with JuD global jihad point of view as abstraction(like they believe in Iqbal's exhortation to reestablish Muslim glory over infidels)
2. it sees no downside to it or
3. it is plain stupid in the matter of consequences to Pakistan of anything giving benefits today and is done in the name of Islam.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 21 Aug 2014 22:28

yes yes..i am not disputing a jihadi's hatred of india or their ambition to global dominance yada yada.

the question is, why would LeT be involved with ISIS and for what goals. as LeT is working under direct guidance of pak army, what is pak army's goals with ISIS?

please don't bring in zaid hamid in anything other than a joke post.

partha · Post by **partha** » 21 Aug 2014 22:32

^^
I watched that Arif Jamal's discussion a few days back. It is a good discussion if anybody hasn't watched it yet. At one place he mentions that if LeT decides to take over Lahore, it just needs a few hours. Scary.

sadhana · Post by **sadhana** » 21 Aug 2014 22:34

Zaid Hamid is no joke, he is an indicator of the environment he flourishes in. The fact that Zaid Hamid gets a platform shows the extent of the mass murdering disease in Pak.
To repeat
Pak Army is willing to go along with JuD acting in Iraq, Syria, etc because of one or more of the following:
1. it agrees with JuD global jihad point of view as abstraction(like they believe in Iqbal's exhortations to reestablish Muslim glory over infidels)
2. it sees no downside to it like it sees no downside to Taliban rule in Afghanistan or
3. it is plain stupid in the matter of consequences to Pakistan of anything giving benefits today and done in the name of Islam.
4. its paymaster Saudi Arabia, and brothers Turkey and Qatar are doing the same thing(supporting terrorists in ISIS)

sadhana · Post by **sadhana** » 21 Aug 2014 22:37

Gus wrote:yes yes..i am not disputing a jihadi's hatred of india or their ambition to global dominance yada yada.

the question is, why would LeT be involved with ISIS and for what goals. as LeT is working under direct guidance of pak army, what is pak army's goals with ISIS?

please don't bring in zaid hamid in anything other than a joke post.

Please watch the video if you haven't. You will not have this question if you do.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 21 Aug 2014 23:33

anupmisra wrote:
Anujan wrote:MSA writes that it is "tradition" for Pakistanis to meet Hurrirats. Well it is "tradition" for India-Pak talks to fail and for Pakis to send in terrorists. Maybe we should follow those traditions too.
Its also part of tradition that an insider has usually let the barbarians in. Ask Raja Dahir.

Fact is we are doing a favor to pakis by indulging in talks after decades of terrorism from pakis and direct wars, while pakis are strutting around fantasizing that they own talks and lecture India about democracy wrt talks with pakis.

From here: link

..
Khan present himself as an alternative to the establishment. But does that make him a democrat?

First, Khan has shown affinities with Islamic parties, as evident from his defence of the anti-blasphemy law, his discourse on Sharia, his rejection of the Ahmadis and the coalition he has made with the Jama’at-i-Islami to rule the province of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. Second, he supported Pervez Musharraf’s government in 2002 during the referendum that gave legitimacy to the would-be president-general. Third, ..

This is the kind of people talking big in pakistan and that is the default state that calls itself democratic.

We should be asking many more sincere questions to pakis in any talks viz
* ethical stand of paki army in cross-border and international terror, slave marketing, beheadings, bomb blasts and justifications
* Scheming for slave marketing, beheadings etc in Kashmir when talking to 'separatists'
* war time behavior of launching irregulars across the border - how civilized is that.
* Genocide in Bangladesh, ethnic cleansing in Kashmir

We should also scan members of paki teams about hatred against minorities, as that is taught in pakistan since childhood in schools. We need to be more sincere about true secularism and not pseudo secularism. By behaving well with barbarians and offer of talk or ==, we are not doing justice to ourselves or even other neighbors who want peaceful relations in the Indian subcontinent.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Aug 2014 23:49

partha wrote:^
Globalization of Kashmir issue. If LeT goes global and embeds itself into jihadi orgs like ISIS, Pak thinks it may be easy to channel the attention of world wide jihadis to 'liberate Kashmir'. Just like US is hated all over the jihadi world, Pak wants the attention of jihadis all over on India.

Then Alien Vs Predator end Solution will be applied to remove the critters from the face of planet.