Indo-UK: News & Discussion

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vsudhir
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

A culture of underachievement
The study, published in the Sociological Review, shows how difficult it is for children, particularly boys, to be clever and popular. Boys risk being assaulted in some schools for being high-achievers. To conform and escape alienation, clever boys told researchers they may ‘try to fall behind’ or ‘dumb down’.
Terrible!
I can imagine the pressure PIO kids must be under frm their porki/BD peers....
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Gerard »

China can bring Britain to a halt
Intelligence chiefs have warned that China may have gained the capability to shut down Britain by crippling its telecom and utilities.

They have told ministers of their fears that equipment installed by Huawei, the Chinese telecom giant, in BT’s (the main British telecom company) new communications network could be used to halt critical services such as power, food and water supplies.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by shyamd »

Diplomatic incident
Justin Webb | 01:56 GMT, Tuesday, 31 March 2009

A minor diplomatic incident here at Andrews Air Force Base.

It seems that the British authorities have insisted that the press in the White House "bubble" have to show passports when arriving in Britain.

This is unusual - most countries treat the travelling White House press with a gracious acknowledgement of what they believe to be their status.

Perhaps the Brits are seeking revenge after that strange incident at the White House when press traveling with Gordon Brown had trouble getting in.

Plainly, in a partnership of purpose, passports are required.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

Since this is everything but an Indo-UK thread:

Janet Jagan, Chicago Native Who Led Guyana, Dies at 88
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

UK introduces new visa rules for Indian students
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/st ... 0090089323
In 2008, almost 29,000 Indian students received visas to study in the UK. This represents a 30 per cent increase on 2007 figures.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

Britain's Conservatives: It's still about schools
The opposition plans to fight the next election in the classroom
Well, good luck to them I guess. Now before NRao gets unhappy at the utter lack of an Indo-connection in the post, ask if there will be any signif change in UKstani policy w.r.t the subcontinent with the Tories taking power? Any willingness to stop feeding the jihadist snake, to stop apologizing for TSP's terrorism against India, to call TSP the rogue nation it has become, to stop sheltering fugitives from Indian law on Ukstani shores?

Yup, there you go. Didn't think so, either.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

G20 protests turn violent in London

Time to hold such mega summit meets on remote locales like Malta or some pacific island paradises.Will help keep 'em nosy potestors out and will also reduce terrorist opportunities to create havoc.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by putnanja »

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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

vsudhir wrote:G20 protests turn violent in London

Time to hold such mega summit meets on remote locales like Malta or some pacific island paradises.Will help keep 'em nosy potestors out and will also reduce terrorist opportunities to create havoc.
rent-an-anarchist up to its usual tricks. surprised that no enterprising jehadi seized upon the opportunity to blow up a few policemen and anarchists in one easy go
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Airavat »

On the Sterling Balances issue the RBI pdf paper by Johann has this:

With the outbreak of World War II Government expenditure, which was modest during the first two years of the War, had nearly doubled in1942-43 and continued to rise. War xpenditure accounted for over 77 per cent of the aggregate Government expenditure in 1945-46. As a result, the Reserve Bank shouldered added responsibility of financing war expenditures of the United Kingdom and her allies to the extent that the Government of India fell short of meeting them despite increased tax mobilisation and borrowing efforts and recording overall budgetary surpluses. During 1940-1946, the Reserve Bank financed 45 per cent of the combined outlay of the Government of India and Allies.

The origin of ad hoc Treasury Bills in India dated back toWorld War II when they were issued by the Government of India to the Reserve Bank mainly in connection with the temporary financing of sterling debt repatriation. Since the Government’s receipts through rupee loans did not always coincide with the repatriation of sterling debt, ad hocs were issued to provide the Reserve Bank with alternative eligible rupee assets.The ad hocs were retired when the Government’s dated securities programme was subsequently undertaken. Ad hocs were also created in 1948-49 to replace sterling securities transferred to the U.K.Government in terms of the sterling balance agreement of 1948.

History and Problem of the Indian Currency (free online book hence no copyright issues)

The manner of the disposal of sterling balances during the last six years aroused far too little comment at the end of the war compared to the question of their future utilization. For, substantial amounts of sterling of the value of about Rs. 1,600 crores-still awaited disposal in October 1946, though in the following months the pace of accumulation had considerably slowed down due to the termination of hostilities. The Government had already liquidated the Chatfield Debt of one quarter of 34 million, being India's share of the estimated pre-war capital cost of modernising the Indian army.

Apprehensions gained strength in some quarters that the perfidious Albion might, by a sleight, as it were, sweep all the balances out of existence. Several dark possibilities were hinted at. It was said, for instance, that the Government would just watch the balances being squandered away by continuing the statutory obligation imposed on the Reserve Bank to maintain the Is. 6d- rate, i e., a rate which would be rendered wholly untenable and obsolete by the postwar relationship of British and Indian price levels- Or alternatively, India might be got round by wily means to make a big gift to the United Kingdom as a token of goodwill and comradeship-in-arms.

The sterling balances, it should be made clear, represented neither abnormal gains made by India out of a world-devastating war nor were they the outcome of any war-time profiteering. The whole process of war purchases in India and payments for them involved forced abstention from consumption for a large part of India's population and brought very little accession to their total real income.

There is no disagreement that Indian economy was strained to the utmost during the war and with the depletion of exiguous reserves that the population possessed only in the best of years, shortages and scarcity were intensified. The liquidation of sterling balances was therefore, no distribution of largess but an amply deserved measure of economic restitution on the part of United Kingdom.

A new agreement was signed by the Indian delegation which visited London for further negotiation on July 9, 1948. Under this agreement the Government of India took over all the stores and installations of HMG lying in India for a sum of 100 millions (Rs. 133 crores) paid out out of sterling balances in full and final payment. Further a sum of 147 millions (Rs. 197 crores) was agreed to be paid by India to Britain in payment to pensions to British personnel who had served in India. The British government took up the responsibility of payment of these pensions beginning with a sum of 6i millions (Rs. 8 crores) and falling gradually to nothing in 60 years. Similarly another sum of 201 millions (Rs. 27 crores) was agreed to be paid in payment of pensions payable by provinces in India.

The total amount thus paid out of the sterling balances was Rs, 357 crores. On the other hand a sum of Rs. 73 crores was credited to India on account of the liabilities of Britain in the defence expenditure outstanding and not adjusted so far. The total amount left after making all adjustments was 800 millions or Rs. 1,040 crores.

The Government of India, as a part of its anti-inflationary policy initiated a policy of liberal imports in 1948. This resulted in heavy adverse of payments and rapid depletion of sterling available in Account No. 1. By January 1949, we had spent 43 millions more than what had been provided for and we asked the United kingdom for release of this amount. The United kingdom refused to do it and by April our position in respect of balance of payment became precarious.

The Indian delegation at the Bretton Woods Conference in 1944 took up the stand that the liquidation of War debts should be included as among the legitimate duties of the International Monetary Fund. In the Conference itself, however, they could not obtain any support for the inclusion of the abnormal war balances in the Fund. Not only the U. S. and the United Kingdom delgations but also some of the delegations of the exiled Governments of Europe stoutly opposed them.

India's decision to remain in the British Common Wealth of Nations as a free partner made her association with Great Britain in the economic field as well inevitable. The economic difficulties of the United Kingdom and the "Dollar Crisis 1 ' of the Sterling Area led to the creation, once again of the Dollar Pool arrangements and India out of her free will joined these arrangements under the terms of Sterling Balance Agreement of July 1949.

On 18th September 1949, Sir Stafford Cripps made the dramatic announcement that Britain had decided with the concurrence of the International Monetary Fund to devalue the pound sterling by 30.5 percent- The value of pound was reduced from 4.03 dollars to 2.80 dollars. The value of our sterling balances has been reduced by 30 per cent. This loss has been forced upon us by Britain which blocked our balances in London. We did not keep our balances in England out of our free will. England must compensate us for this loss.

The decision of Pakistan not to devalue her rupee in terms of dollar and appreciate it in terms of sterling and Indian rupee is another big blow to Indian economy. By her action, Pakistan has neutralized the effect of fall in the value of our rupee on our exports of jute to dollar area. The cost of imported raw jute will go up by 44 %. Moreover our exports of cotton cloth to that dominion may also suffer because of high cost of cotton that we will have to pay for Pakistan cotton. The economies of the two dominions will diverge more from each as a result of situation created by devaluation.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

Airawat,
Thanks for the quotes, but could you summarize what is being said in simple langauge for simpletons like me?
Thanks.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Keshav »

The irony of this is that despite accusing Ghai of inflating the number of his supporters, Mr. Suroors rebuttal quotes only two journalists whose popularity could have been similarly inflated. He then continues to equate sharia with open-air pyre funerals. There are a million and one ways to be creative about cremations to reduce the discomfort to other communities.

If people don't want to see it, it could be done in a remote area and if smell is a problem, they could think of building a greenhouse like building to house an "outdoor" pyre. There are so many ways to solve this problem and have it amenable to Hindus & Sikhs as well as members of the other community that comparing to it sharia is so ludicrous considering the number of sharia provisions that are allowed in British society - polygamy, government money for religious institutions, and religious courts for domestic issues.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by sum »

Hasan Suroor is a quite open Islamist and a not too subtle Paki supporter (His articles only seem to being out the bad west/India, poor Pak only angle).

Nothing less can be expected from this man.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Airavat »

surinder wrote:Airawat,
Thanks for the quotes, but could you summarize what is being said in simple langauge for simpletons like me?
Thanks.
I'm also a simpleton in financial stuff, hence was waiting for someone more knowledgeable to explain this.

The origin of the "sterling balances" is in the valuation of the Indian currency by the British government in India. Originally the Rupee was pegged against silver, and later against gold, but in the 1900s the mint was shut down and all the gold was shipped off to the UK. The Rupee-Pound exchange rate was fixed and the Indian gold was invested in sterling securities.......initially it was called the "gold standard reserve" and later the "sterling reserve".

The reserve was to be used only if the balance of payments of trade between India and the UK went against the former....in case of a surplus the reserve was to be expanded. Yet since the gold was now out of Indian hands the British could be arbitrary about its use. Accordingly in 1907 the expansion of railway infrastructure in India, done by British companies, was financed from this gold.

From 1916 onwards the balance of trade began to turn abnormally in favour of India, due partly to the increase in exports because of WWI, and at the same time the shrinking of imports due to the ban on trading with Germany and Austria-Hungary. As a result the size of the Indian Economy, and the value of the Indian Rupee, rose dramatically. In 1919 the Rupee-Pound exchange rate was again adjusted upwards, but still kept fixed even though the value of the Pound was eroding.

In the post-WWI period the global economy flourished and India's balance of payments was stable due to growth in both exports and imports. Then came The Great Depression (1929) and the Civil Disobedience Movement (1930), both of which led to a flight of capital from India. The global price of gold was rising while the value of the pound, and with it the rupee, was falling. The GOI encouraged gold sale by the Indian people and exported the same to shore up the currency and add to the reserve. Later in 1935 the Reserve Bank of India was established to end duality in the control of currency and credit.....however the RBI was under an obligation to maintain the rupee-sterling fixed exchange rate!

This despite the fact that the UK's share of the global economy was shrinking, its place being taken by the powerhouses of America and Japan. The Indian market was flooded with cheap Japanese and American goods.

During WWII there was a boom in the Indian Economy from a natural rise in exports. The consequent rise in revenue of the GOI fed the war expenditure of the allied nations to the tune of a whopping 45%!! Moreover goods in India were bought at cheap rates while the exchange rate of the rupee and pound was kept fixed. Also India's "sterling reserves" were now frozen......hence little relief was given to the millions of people that perished in the Bengal Famine of 1943.

India financed a substantial portion of the allied war effort at a tremendous cost to itself. After the war this money should have been repaid through the newly setup International Monetary Fund, which was financing the rebuilding of war-ravaged Europe, but the Indian demand was rejected. And worse we had to pay the cost of the expansion of the Indian Army during WWII through our sterling reserves, even though this army had shed its blood in the service of the allies. We were also required to buy the accumulated stores of the Government of India through our reserves, even though they should have passed as state property to the succeeding Indian government.

Hence our reserves which stood at 1600 crores in 1946 had shrunk to only 653 crores in 1948. When the British devalued their currency by a third in 1949 the value of our reserves shrank still further. What measly amount remained was never returned.....how it was disposed off over the years through one-sided defence deals is not part of the book.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv3n2/india.htm
By the close of the Second World War Britain owed nearly £1,030 million to India for goods and services rendered during the war against the Japanese. This sum constituted the equivalent of nearly half of the national income of India. It was the equivalent of twice the total capital invested in all industries (excepting transport) in the inter-bellum years in the iron, steel, textile, cement and other industries.45 It had accumulated as Britain had undertaken to pay India for commodities, services, labour and supplies required for the war effort. Britain deposited the amount in sterling in London but it could not be actually used by the Indian government. In effect India parted with goods without getting anything immediately in return.46 In its turn the Indian government raised rupee finance for the war by flooding the market with paper notes to the tune of Rs. 900 crores in the period 1939-45. The result was that the value of the Rupee fell by 40% by May, 1944.47 The human cost of British financial policy in the war period was borne by the Indian poor whose real incomes fell by half, and particularly by the 3 1/2 million victims who starved to death in the Bengal famine.

B.T. Ranadive, then a Politburo Member of the CPI, correctly understood that the sterling balances were not an index of Indian wealth but a measure of the forced tribute taken by Britain from India.48 India, he pointed out, was transformed from a debtor to a 'creditor' slave of Britain who was forced to give a loan by denying himself the necessaries of life.49 It is extraordinary that this sorry and sordid history is taken by Proletarian Path as an index of Indian economic development.


http://www.transatlantic.uj.edu.pl/uplo ... ing.MP.pdf
Political as well as economic circumstances militated against downward
adjustments of the balances. India, for example, held more than one-third of
all sterling balances. Between 1945 and 1947 the Labour Government was
conducting a series of extremely difficult negotiations with Indian political
leaders, with the aim of giving the country its independence within a multiracial
Comm~nwe a l t h
.I~n ~1 946 and 1947 India was plagued with foodsupply
problems, and lacked the foreign investment which neither the United
States nor the International Bank appeared willing to provide but which was
essential to any agricultural and industrial modernization programme. The
British concern at that time was that the financial consequences feared by the
Bank would be exacerbated by the political problems likely to develop in
the Anglo-Indian relationship after independence, if excessive pressure was
brought upon India to scale down sterling balances.31 The second difficulty
was the practical difficulty of maintaining the distinction between capital and
current transactions, as the events after 15 July showed. Indeed, the chances
are that the distinction would only have been observed had the financial
During 1946 sterling area sterling balances belonging to west European nations and to the non-dollar
western hemisphere rose from £351 million to £363 million, and from £163 million to £212 million
respectively.
operations of its creditors been controlled in London. As it was, some countries
made not even a formal pretence of observing the gentlemen's agreements
they had concluded with Britain.

http://meaindia.nic.in/treatiesagreement/1947/chap4.htm


http://www.vedamsbooks.com/no26624.htm
"This pioneering book analyzes the evolution of Indian capitalists as a mature, politically conscious, all India class, and simultaneously provides a comprehensive economic history of colonial India in the first half of the twentieth century. It details the extremely complex nature of the relationship that the capitalists developed with imperialism and nationalism and questions many simplistic stereotypes such as that the capitalist class was loyalist or incapable of being consistently anti-imperialist, or that the course of the national movement was critically determined by the capitalist class.

"Aditya Mukherjee argues, to the contrary, that the Indian capitalists, while of necessity maintaining a working relationship with the colonial state, evolved a sophisticated economic critique of colonialism, including such complex phenomena as the "unequal exchange" that occurs in the trade between countries with different levels of productivity. They thus continued the task performed by the early nationalists in the late nineteenth century, of being the national watchdogs and of exposing imperialist designs on the economic front. And while they neither led nor created the national movement, they gave support to it in a manner that would keep the Left-wing within the movement contained and help save capitalism as a system. The role played by leaders such as Sir Purshotamdas Thakurdas and G.D. Birla and their relationship with national leaders such as Gandhiji, Sardar Patel and Nehru is also discussed.

"Professor Mukherjee provides a detailed analysis of the economic debates of the time on issues concerning tariffs, trade, industry, monetary policy, foreign capital, planning and the public sector. Some of the other significant aspects discussed are:

* The critical involvement of Indian capitalists in economic bargaining with the British Government both in India and England during trade negotiations, in the legislatures, in parliamentary commissions, during the Round Table Conferences, and in negotiating the return for India of the famous Sterling Balances that the British had claimed as forced credit during the Second World War.
* The Indian capitalists’ efforts at securing a better position for India and other under-developed countries in the multilateral monetary and trade institutions—such as the International Monetary Fund and the International Trade Organization—that were being contemplated after the Second World War.
* The crucial linkages between the economic, political and ideological evolution of the Indian capitalist class and the nature of the post-colonial state, society and economy.
http://books.google.com/books?id=guJsHO ... t&resnum=5
Last edited by svinayak on 04 Apr 2009 23:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by shyam »

Acharya wrote:http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv3n2/india.htm
B.T. Ranadive, then a Politburo Member of the CPI, correctly understood that the sterling balances were not an index of Indian wealth but a measure of the forced tribute taken by Britain from India.48 India, he pointed out, was transformed from a debtor to a 'creditor' slave of Britain who was forced to give a loan by denying himself the necessaries of life.49 It is extraordinary that this sorry and sordid history is taken by Proletarian Path as an index of Indian economic development.
Did China also get into similar situation today? Replace Britain with US.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

shyam wrote:
Did China also get into similar situation today? Replace Britain with US.
I had posted before that China is to US what India was to UK
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

If any Indian here, after reading this sterling balance sordid saga still refuses to harbor warm and fuzzy feelings towards UKstan, beware, you maybe falling into the 'vengeful victim complex' and revenge fanstasia!

/snark
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Dilbu »

Airavat thanks. A blood boiling story indeed. Millions that perished in India during famines.... :x
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

And we had the spin-maestro come here to quote for us heathens.... I wonder how it is possible to keep a straight face despite having loads of evidences to the contrary. A british way of life, perhaps... The uk-stanis deserve the pakis and I for one would dance in joy in revenge whenever the brits are permanently put to the footnotes of history as an evil, decadent, adharmic empire that swindled billions out of their livelihood. The sooner, the better and livelier the dance will be. And guess what, the fraction of Indians that seek revenge is only a-increasing.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vishnua »

There is documentary on Bengal famine by none other than one of the British TV stations.

Before British came there was famine once every 120 years approximately but after that it was once in 4 years. People forget great famine of Lahore in 1870's where millions died.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Hiten »

almost month old news, don't think its been posted. Apologies if it has

Muslim students preventing Hindus from using QMU's Multi-faith centre
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

vishnua wrote:There is documentary on Bengal famine by none other than one of the British TV stations.

Before British came there was famine once every 120 years approximately but after that it was once in 4 years. People forget great famine of Lahore in 1870's where millions died.
Actually I don't even know about the famine in Lahore in the 1870's. Can you tell more?
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

Airawat, Acharya, and others:

Thanks for your efforts in bringing more data. While I have not fully understood all the terms and all that, but the general outline seems to be that the British first gave themselves a healthy loan from India's earning of seath and blood. In the process causing famines and shortages. Then they changed the terms of the loan and played with currency valuations to reduce the value of that loan. Then they refused to pay this loan. Some of it (As per Johann) was paid in weapons, which meanth that the money went back to their own industries. All the while encouraging TSP so that the need for the said weapons increases.

All this means that the dirt poor starving masses of India were defending the British, not only by sending men to die in wars that do not concern them, but also sending money.

Imagine for a second if India had not been a colony of the British during WW-1 & WW-2, Britain
would have been decimated.

Note, that this all the official debt. What else unoffically they must have been filching is anybodies guess. The fact that Gandhi & Indian leaders would support India's participation in the two wars and not educate us on the concomittant enconomic blood-bath to us is most saddening.

Is this the light of Christianity and fair-play they were bringing to us?

PS: Can someone explain this financial mumbo-jumbo better? What is this Stirling thing? Can someone write a article detailing and connecting the various dots?
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Johann »

Hi Surinder,
the general outline seems to be that the British first gave themselves a healthy loan from India's earning of seath and blood.


Indian expenditure largely paid for the absolutely massive expansion of the Indian armed forces and the GoI, and of Indian industry public and private industry to supply them. Look at HAL for example - its establishment as a private Indian firm and its expansion were intimately tied to the war.

These bulk of these forces served in India and Burma fighting the Japanese. The largest deployment outside the Indian Ocean region was the Indian 8th Army which served Egypt/North Africa and then Italy.

India in 1950 was the 10th most industrialised country in the world, with one of the world's largest standing armies.

The UK in part under US pressure had to accept financial responsibility for the bulk of this GoI war expenditure.
The fact that Gandhi & Indian leaders would support India's participation in the two wars and not educate us on the concomittant enconomic blood-bath to us is most saddening.
Firstly, the basics of the economic and strategic realities of WWII were hardly secret at the time.

Secondly, Nehru withdrew support for the war when the Viceroy committed India without consultation with the Congress govt, and of course in 1942 there was the Quit India movement.

So rather than blame the leaders, the question is why there wasnt the same wave of nationalist resistance to the war effort - why in fact there was the opposite; mass cooperation at the lowest point in British power since 1857.

Marxist critiques point to the fact that the nature of GoI spending in the period benefited certain classes of Indians, particularly the ones who were at the forefront of the Indian nationalist movement.

The expansion of the Indian armed forces and civil services gave huge numbers of Indians was something that was welcomed not simply as an opportunity to earn, but also the chance to build a world class Indian state. Whether as bureaucrats, engineers or officers, the war presented opportunity. The Indian capitalist class that underwrote the national independence movement also INC profited greatly, and took advantage of opportunities to expand. Small and medium businesses did well as urban populations swelled. Organised labour also expanded as both state and industry expanded.

Educated Indians, and the Indian business classes foremost objection to colonial rule was the way they were shut out of industry, service and government. In both cases the war opened the door. In WWII in particular Indians stormed through that door in huge numbers to make sure it could never shut on them again. In that sense the more the GoI spent, the better.

This was perhaps the ultimate reason the INC's Quit India campaign, or Bose's appeals failed to mobilise. The war represented opportunity to the places and classes where the nationalist movement was strongest.

The Indians who didnt benefit, the landless peasant, the ones who bore the most devastating costs of the war were the one least represented in any of the strands of the independence movement. Gandhi who supposed to be their voice failed to make their plight the centre of his campaign.
In the process causing famines and shortages.
There were famines in earlier periods of the Raj, at times when London was financing the GoI. The link between colonial misrule and famines is separate from the GoI's contribution to war finances.
Then they changed the terms of the loan and played with currency valuations to reduce the value of that loan.
The devaluation of the pound sterling was driven by the huge trade imbalances with dollar area which was now globally economically dominant. Devaluation was intended to boost the competiveness of exports to the US in particular. You can see a major jump in British and Sterling area exports following the devaluation.
Then they refused to pay this loan.
The post-war debt was 1.17 billion pounds

As I understand it the post-war agreement reached was that India would be able to directly draw on its sterling balance at 35 million pounds per year, which was estimated at 15% of GoI budget.

Is this hugely different from repayment rates for Lend-Lease, Marshall Plan, etc?

There is no way that British economic policies can be separated from American choices after the Lend-Lease agreement, and even less so after the Marshall Plan in 1947.

The only way the UK could have repaid at a faster rate would have been to use American aid to repay India. What the Americans wanted the UK to do was spend that aid on American goods.
Some of it (As per Johann) was paid in weapons, which meanth that the money went back to their own industries. All the while encouraging TSP so that the need for the said weapons increases.
- In the 1947-1950 period British industry was still recovering, and unable to supply both India and Pakistan simultaneously. Supplies came from war time stores. In fact Pakistan in particular was so dissatisfied with repayment via arms (the debt to undivided GoI was also partitioned) that it spent huge amounts buying from the international market.

India on the other hand had inherited the bulk of the complete ordnance chain that produced small arms, uniforms, ammunition, etc that it paid for during the war.

- Nehru's choice of purchases in the 1950s wasnt just driven by US military aid to Pakistan. It was also pushed by his desire to make India an independent strategic force capable of minimising outside influence, and determining the future of Asia. There is no other context in which you can understand purchases such as the Vikrant. Where Nehru went wrong was in assuming that Western power would be the real challenge to Indian freedom of action, rather than Asian powers, in particular China.
Imagine for a second if India had not been a colony of the British during WW-1 & WW-2, Britain would have been decimated.
Let us imagine the Indian independence movement had succeeded a little earlier, and India was a dominion, or even a Republic in 1939.

Although Nehru (like Churchill) had condemned Chamberlain's failure to stand up to Hitler in the 1930s, let us assume the Indian government chose to maintain neutrality throughout. Let us also assume the Japanese empire chose to respect this neutrality.

Would it have made any difference to the Fall of France in 1940? Would it have made any difference to the Battle of Britain and the Battle of the Atlantic? Would it have made any difference to Midway? Would it have made any difference to the Fall of Singapore & Malaya? Would it have made much difference to Stalingrad? Would it have made any difference to Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

The greatest contribution of Indian forces (which Indian money paid for) in WWII was to Egypt and Burma. Egypt was important as a link to India and the Far East; Burma was important because India and the Indian Ocean were important.

The people who would have felt the impact would not have been the British Isles (whose survival depended on North American supplies and financing), but those in or adjacent to the Indian Ocean region - Australia, and China. Without Indian manpower to blunt the Japanese and keep supply lines open, they might well have fallen entirely to the rising sun.

The overal effect would have been to lengthen the war, which could only have been resolved through nuclear weapons on both Germany and Japan.

The US, UK and other commonwealth colonies had the collective material and manpower capacity and the will to fight and eventually defeat the Germans and the Japanese in both world wars.

The lack of access to India as a source of financed, trained and equipped manpower would have meant essentially a longer, bloodier war and a significantly smaller share of British political credit with the Americans at the close of the war. But its Australia and China that would have paid the real price under Japanese occupation. Not to mention Germany when the nukes fell on Berlin and the Ruhr valley.
Last edited by Johann on 08 Apr 2009 02:33, edited 1 time in total.
svinayak
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

surinder wrote:Airawat, Acharya, and others:

Thanks for your efforts in bringing more data. While I have not fully understood all the terms and all that, but the general outline seems to be that the British first gave themselves a healthy loan from India's earning of seath and blood. In the process causing famines and shortages. Then they changed the terms of the loan and played with currency valuations to reduce the value of that loan. Then they refused to pay this loan. Some of it (As per Johann) was paid in weapons, which meanth that the money went back to their own industries. All the while encouraging TSP so that the need for the said weapons increases.
You have to read atleast few books on the British empire. Neil Fergussen is one good author for this topic. Very few authors talk about the financial details of the empire and how London became the Financial Capitol of the world. You have to understand what they dont discuss.


Churchill in 1900 talks about 500 year dominion status on India and other colonies.
This was the level of total control the British and other colonial powers had on the fate of the majority of the world population.
All this means that the dirt poor starving masses of India were defending the British, not only by sending men to die in wars that do not concern them, but also sending money.
The slavery of Indians was actually worse than the slavery of the black people in the Americas. Indians were the most profitable commodity for the British Monarchy and the population was a market, wealth generator as well as fighters for the global British campaign. Think about the movie MATRIX.

The global British trading system was built on the ancient Indian trading system.

Imagine for a second if India had not been a colony of the British during WW-1 & WW-2, Britain
would have been decimated.
Britain would not have been attacked and other European countries would have ganged up together to attack India.

Note, that this all the official debt. What else unoffically they must have been filching is anybodies guess. The fact that Gandhi & Indian leaders would support India's participation in the two wars and not educate us on the concomittant enconomic blood-bath to us is most saddening.
Gandhi and other leaders found the weakness of the British after the First war WWI.
This is the catalyst for the real resistance, non cooperation and freedom struggle. Until 1914 British were undisputed power and even other powers were in awe of the British Empire.
The British govt and Churchill directly worked with the 500 princes and obtained the manpower and resources for the two wars. Gandhi had to compete with this and may have decided that it was better to cooperate with the Princely states.
In the WWII in 1942, INC leadership figured out that British were short and started the Quit India movement for independence. Churchill invited the Indian Princes to London to discuss the war and appealed to them to support the war. Churchill was harsh on the INC leadership for the Quit India movement and was vengeful with Partition.

The Indian industrialists were doing business with the Empire and at the same time supporting the Congress party and the INC leadership.


Is this the light of Christianity and fair-play they were bringing to us?
You can judge it yourself.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Apologies if posted earlier. This is one book that is worth looking into. By the way, it won the pulitzer prize for non-fiction in 2006. Haven't gone through this book, but intend to. Obviously, there is lot of data that has been painstakingly gathered and can be used for reconstruction and drawing one's own conclusions.
Imperial Reckoning
The Untold Story Of Britain's Gulag In Kenya

by Caroline Elkins
http://www.metacritic.com/books/authors ... lreckoning

Here are links to short and long interviews about the book by the author.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5AdhsXN-uo

Longer version of interview
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1863655988
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

the 43 Bengal famine was caused by a breakdown in the rice distribution system and a governmental inability to manage the wholesale rice market leading to hoarding.

the distribution system broke down because the british military command feared that the japanese would commandeer the thousands of small ships and boats all over the ganges/bramhaputra delta and advance rapidly along the riverine system - and therefore these boats and ships were destroyed or removed. the panic after the loss of burma and malaya was intense. It is unlikely that civil servants sitting in delhi would have understood the critical nature and the devastating unintended consequences of the orders they were issuing.

the lack of this riverine transport infrastructure crippled the distribution of what was otherwise a bumper harvest that year. although this was truly awful, what was criminal was the hoarding of rice and the exorbitant prices that were being charged to landless peasants who could not afford to pay. many zamindari families profited handsomely from the famine, as they had before in previous famines too. some took that guilt to their funeral pyres.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

It is always a pyramid. At the top of the pyramid is the British empire
vsudhir
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

Acharya wrote:It is always a pyramid. At the top of the pyramid is the British empire
Am reminded of an old filmi aphorism....
Neeche girney ka darr usi ko hota hai jo oonchai par hota hai....
:mrgreen:
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vishnua »

[quote="surinder
Actually I don't even know about the famine in Lahore in the 1870's. Can you tell more?[/quote]

http://books.guardian.co.uk/comment/sto ... 78,00.html

As per famine in Lahore and etc there was an article on rediff describing the various famines that were caused during british rule.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

Gerard
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Gerard »

Police chief quits over blunder
Police were forced to bring their operation forward and arrested 12 men - 10 of whom are Pakistanis. Gordon Brown said Pakistan's government "had to do more" to root out the terrorist elements in its country.

Sources say the planned attack was to be "very soon" and "very, very big".

Ten of those arrested are Pakistan-born nationals on student visas and one is a UK-born British national.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

there was some talk of a baluchistan connection, haven't heard any more. i don't think these are 'azad baluch mujaheddin' but possibly quetta based jehadis from khilafat hq
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00467.html
The simultaneous raids were originally scheduled for dawn Thursday but were bumped up after Quick inadvertently flashed the documents, according to a police official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Telephoto lenses captured such details as "AQ driven attack planning within the UK" and "Merseyside -- Dynamic entry, firearms."
Sounds like someone was planning another Mumbai - or at least some kind of shoot-and-scoot incident, in contrast to the previous tradition of bomb attacks.

I guess the spectacular success of Mumbai has opened up a whole new avenue for jihadis to consider in event-planning. Expect fidayeen assaults to figure much more prominently in future scenarios.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Gerard »

Al-Qaeda terror plot to bomb Easter shoppers
All but one of the men arrested were Pakistani nationals who came to Britain on student visas.
Lalmohan
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

Times is now suggesting that all the arrested men are from NWFP and the 'Briton' is originally from the same ethnic background. Search is focusing on on old block of flats in Liverpool suspected to be the bomb factory

what if they were planning to do a Mumbai?
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Chinmayanand »

I hope ,the pukis prove their friendship with the brits in grand style in the near future making millibund proud.
My heartfelt condolances &consolations to pukis . Never mind, there is always a next time. The freedom struggle to bring UK under Dar-ul-Islam must go on.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

Gerard wrote:Al-Qaeda terror plot to bomb Easter shoppers
All but one of the men arrested were Pakistani nationals who came to Britain on student visas.
A few thoughts:
1) This is what Millibund and Cohen want India to compromise with and Zakaria to live with. Radical Islam.
2) The Pakis will continue attacks in Kashmir and UK in an attempt to prove Obama and Millibund and Cohen right - that India should compromise on Kashmir (which means give Kashmir away)

I think it is extremely irresponsible on the part of Zakaria/Millibund/Cohen to speak out without consulting with India - the results for this irresponsible behaviour is clear to see in Kashmir and the UK.

There is a price to be paid for their thinking and as long as these yahoos are not prepared to pay for it they should keep quite - for the simple reason that someone else is paying for it.

The Brits are bankrupt, do not have enough sense to think this through.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

Is there no poll carried out by any media house etc on what the average Briton thinks of poopostanis in their midst? Wouldn't be surprised if the % of positive ratings are exactly == the % of poopis in the general population.
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