Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 10 Aug 2010 14:42

Completely agree here. The Kaveri program MUST NOT be killed. The step of de-linking it from LCA and allocating more funds was the step in right direction.

This is our maiden attempt at making a jet engine and I feel it is a matter of WHEN not IF we are successful at this. Success in this area will give us a very crucial breakthrough and put us in the league of select few.

After all, how many countries are capable of building a jet engine all by themselves? Perseverance is the need of hour.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 11 Aug 2010 04:01

Interesting news though apparently the Japanese ATD-X program has solicited infoemation about the GTRE Kaveri!!! (As per Flight Global) and speculation is rife that the full scale Mitsubishi ATD-X may be jointly developed with India into MCA!!

It would be an interesting triple entete India,Russia,Japan.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 11 Aug 2010 04:26

I agree with telang. After having put in so many yrs of work we must not abandon this engine and should make it work. It would do wonders to our confidence.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Aug 2010 04:32

Why can't the Kaveri power the LCA trainer? Also, the latest news from the Kaveri is great. If the LCA will in future lose some weight, the Kaveri could become useful. Also, the Kaveri must be continuously developed to refine and optimize the design. Kaveri MkII or MK III could be great!!

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 15 Aug 2010 19:16

Does any body have the information on what is the lastest figures of DRY Thrust and WET Thrust and the weight of the latest Iteration of the Kaveri Engine

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 15 Aug 2010 20:46

P Chitkara wrote:Completely agree here. The Kaveri program MUST NOT be killed. The step of de-linking it from LCA and allocating more funds was the step in right direction.

This is our maiden attempt at making a jet engine and I feel it is a matter of WHEN not IF we are successful at this. Success in this area will give us a very crucial breakthrough and put us in the league of select few.

After all, how many countries are capable of building a jet engine all by themselves? Perseverance is the need of hour.

Kaveri should not be dumped. But separating the LCA from kaveri is not going to be feasible. Without LCA, there will not be sufficient orders for Kaveri engine. There are some concerns that Kaveri has been in development for over 20 years and so on. There have also been concerns that DRDO is stalling LCA because of Kaveri.
All of these miss an important fact. This is the first gas based engine that India is building. Also the performance expected from this engine is steep. There will be initial hiccups. After all nobody succeeds the first time. I just hope that this engine is not killed.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Aug 2010 20:53

If a good engine comes up, it will find its uses. Key is for GTRE to complete this as quickly as possible.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 15 Aug 2010 21:04

Vivek K wrote:If a good engine comes up, it will find its uses. Key is for GTRE to complete this as quickly as possible.

That last sentence is the million dollar challenge, isn't it. Forgive me for perhaps an uneducated question but have there been any efforts to setup a production line for the Kaveri, or is it only a handful in GTRE who know how to put the Kaveri together?

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 15 Aug 2010 22:30

What is the latest updated statistics of Kaveri Engine....?
Is there any panwala or chaiwala to give us this information....?

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 15 Aug 2010 23:26

Vivek K wrote:Why can't the Kaveri power the LCA trainer?

The trainer is also a complete combat-ready a/c and is used as such. Plus, due to duplication of controls for the trainer and the trainee, there would be some increase in weight, so an underpowered engine would be a further handicap in a trainer a/c.

I think an underpowered engine would be alright for a basic or intermediate jet trainer, where the a/c is not meant for combat operations

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 16 Aug 2010 12:26

Any updates on Snecma core? This will be a tricky proposition; these people have been giving us trouble with Shakti (the transmission drama).

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 16 Aug 2010 13:32

Kaveri "as is" is an acceptable-to-good combat engine. It is better than many engines that are now the mainstay of the IAF but is simply not yet a top-of-the-line engine. That will come in its own time because it is not something that can be pushed.

Our problem is that we are designing the engine to fit an aircraft instead of designing an aircraft to fit the engine. The latter would result in a very good combat aircraft that could even be classified as "excellent" when all is said and done. Most important, it would be totally Indian, producible by the hundred without hindrance and would have been a reality years ago.

Engine research is by nature more of a moving target than airplane design and by hitching it to an airplane design, we have ensured that we have neither aircraft nor engine because each is pulling the other down.

Telang · Post by **Telang** » 17 Aug 2010 01:54

Victor wrote:

by hitching it to an airplane design, we have ensured that we have neither aircraft nor engine because each is pulling the other down.

Absolutely true. Now having got bogged down, dont give up, start an airframe around Kaveri with whatever power it has, go for Kaveri-II, and III and IV and so on simultaneously. Experiment, face failures, and rebound with new vigour till something worthwhile is produced. Dare to dare. A lot of young talent is unemployed and needs to be utilised.

Kaveri has not been a failure. It is just going through some developmental phases.

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 19 Aug 2010 14:57

DELETED.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 19 Aug 2010 15:11

^^^^^

Firstly , can you write a proper sentence at all?
Can you spell properly? Please download a dictionary for your browser that can help you if you are challenged!
Why the bolded part in pink?
What is your point?

Yes, no one really knows what the specs are. Bye bye! Take care!
Oh, this offence is directed at you!

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 19 Aug 2010 15:16

Neela wrote:^^^^^

Firstly , can you write a proper sentence at all?
Why the bolded part in pink? What is your point?

Yes, no one really knows what the specs are. Bye bye! Take care!

Oh, this offence is directed at you precisely!

Sorry I am not aware of the fact that you run a sentence writing course over here. I am sorry. By the way can you stick to the question, I have asked. If you don't have the answer don't give any. We are not here to fight over english sentence.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 19 Aug 2010 17:34

>>>by hitching it to an airplane design, we have ensured that we have neither aircraft nor engine because each is pulling the other down.

That could be only partially true. It is not like designing a commercial liner or a commercial engine. You have to have some reference to begin with. Even with a reference, and a design according to the user specs, it is being pulled down by all and sundry..

GTRE was asked to design and develop an engine for the LCA. If the original specs holds good, and the engine developed 100% thrust, it would have been win-win for both. But, IAF couldn't initially envisage the changing scenario in military aviation, the LCA designers couldn't envisage the shifting goal posts of IAF. Unfortunately, GTRE designers were struggling with even the original specs, so where is the question of making an engine with improved specs? -They wouldn't have achieved even this much, if they were forced to redesign the Kaveri.

To be realistic, our Engine tech has matured to the level acheived by GTRE onlee.

Telang · Post by **Telang** » 20 Aug 2010 00:06

A team is working on Kaveri and it will continue to work till the performance of the engine reaches required specifications. My point is, there is no heavenly dictat that GTRE should not assemble few more teams (with out disturbing the team that is working on Kaveri) by additionally recruiting engineers from the reserve of thousands of qualified and unemployed engineers. I think GTRE should have sufficient man power to take up development of at least five to six engines simultaneously. Except for the single crystal blade tech, all other design and build capabilities are available with the GTRE to take up additional development projects if additional qualified manpower is added.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Aug 2010 10:33

Just an amateur question, what are the skills required to design a top of the line jet engine?

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 20 Aug 2010 11:01

Me thinks this discussion will drag on for the next 15 years before the Kaveri dies a natural death. At the moment dont think anyone has the faintest idea where the kaveri really is either the indigenous one or the one in collabaration.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 20 Aug 2010 11:49

geeth wrote:>>>by hitching it to an airplane design, we have ensured that we have neither aircraft nor engine because each is pulling the other down.

That could be only partially true. It is not like designing a commercial liner or a commercial engine. You have to have some reference to begin with. Even with a reference, and a design according to the user specs, it is being pulled down by all and sundry..

GTRE was asked to design and develop an engine for the LCA. If the original specs holds good, and the engine developed 100% thrust, it would have been win-win for both. But, IAF couldn't initially envisage the changing scenario in military aviation, the LCA designers couldn't envisage the shifting goal posts of IAF. Unfortunately, GTRE designers were struggling with even the original specs, so where is the question of making an engine with improved specs? -They wouldn't have achieved even this much, if they were forced to redesign the Kaveri.

To be realistic, our Engine tech has matured to the level acheived by GTRE onlee.

The second part is true. With IAF, and in fact with our military and navy also, requirements are never frozen. They always get enhanced. Or they are a moving target. It reflects the spectrum of threats and challenges which our forces face.
The problem is not the fluid requirements, rather the problem is a lack of anticipation. For example asking what will we need 3 or 5 or 7 years from now and building it today. Like I have pointed out previously, we Indians are pretty reactive. Ditto for our armed forces also. So IAF/IN/IA always is looking at the current threat that it is facing, and trying to meet it.
We see that in our civilian sphere also. We will not enhance the load bearing capacity of our railway tracks until they reach a load factor in excess of 80%. So once the railway route gets saturated, then we build additional capacity, by doubling the tracks or by installing electronic signaling, etc. By that time these up gradations do happen we have already suffered losses. Ditto for our roads. We build wider roads only when traffic gets grid locked. We never plan and build bigger roads in advance. This results in wastage of fuel, from idling vehicles, lower fuel efficiency, higher pollution, wastage of time and decrease in overall efficiency. This happens with our defense forces also.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Aug 2010 22:19

Well said. Indian planning suffers from the boiling frog syndrome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

Telang · Post by **Telang** » 22 Aug 2010 19:46

Karan M wrote:Well said. Indian planning suffers from the boiling frog syndrome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

You could be right. But I know why of it. What ever the world is doing now has originated in the west and the west has seen all that as an evolution of their society, ethos, economy and culture for the last few hundred years. I wonder whether you know we Indians just about a hundred years ago had a totally different kind of the same issues. Our ethos, society, economy and culture had remained static but good for the last ten thousand years till the early 20th century. It will take another 25 years for us to come out of the Boiling Frog syndrome.
.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 24 Aug 2010 18:17

Success Eludes Project Kaveri
The Pioneer

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 24 Aug 2010 21:41

A question to the gurus.

Why can't a Kaveri engine based cruise missile be used for very long distance targets such as dragon's capital and shaan-gayi ? Instead of an electric motor taking over like in nirbhay, here we will have the jet engine taking over from launching rocket stage. And even more difficult to intercept than the slow electric fan due to better speed.

Now, now, I know that a jet engine is expensive for a missile but show us one non-ballistic(not interceptible) missile in our arsenal(or future pipeline) that would reach such long distance targets in the northern neighbour? Obviously this missile would have long range - at least twice the combat radius of single engine planes and not to forget the missile doesn't have drag of the wings/tail-rudder and no weight of the stores.

The engine lifetime and long-term reliability would be a non-issue for this application since it is a single use with a few testing runs perhaps. A perfect platform to try our new Kaveri engines. That way we give gtre more numbers to manufacture and free Tejas mk2 for more powerful engines. And it is also an example of lateral thinking. The company 3M was trying to create a good adhesive polymer but ended up with a weak adhesive. Somebody thought of making use of its weak adhesive property. That's how the now popular Post-It notes were born.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 25 Aug 2010 00:15

P.S. I realize Bala Vignesh made a similar suggestion with lakshya in the Newbie thread.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 25 Aug 2010 16:57

Livefist: KAVERI UPDATE: Critical Flight Tests On IL-76 Testbed This October

Kaveri engine testing under simulated altitude and forward speed conditions during February 2010 has been successfully completed. Another engine has been integrated with IL-76 aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Moscow for ground and flight test which is expected to complete by October 2010 (sic). These two major milestones would make 'Kaveri' engine certified for flight operations. Productions of LCAs are, meanwhile, as decided by user, being fitted with imported engines.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 25 Aug 2010 18:05

PratikDas wrote:Livefist: KAVERI UPDATE: Critical Flight Tests On IL-76 Testbed This October
Kaveri engine testing under simulated altitude and forward speed conditions during February 2010 has been successfully completed. Another engine has been integrated with IL-76 aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Moscow for ground and flight test which is expected to complete by October 2010 (sic). These two major milestones would make 'Kaveri' engine certified for flight operations. Productions of LCAs are, meanwhile, as decided by user, being fitted with imported engines.

Folks, please read the entire post from Livefist. If what the report says is true,IMHO, we have crossed a very significant milestone.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 25 Aug 2010 18:34

Folks, please read the entire post from Livefist. If what the report says is true,IMHO, we have crossed a very significant milestone.

But even if the tests are successful this would still be a 65 KN engine isnt it? What use would it be to the LCA program? Anyway remember what a bust the previous trials were in Russia?

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 25 Aug 2010 18:49

The above report is from MOD
Link

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Aug 2010 18:56

Its true. I have put that as a news (link)

twelve materials that include Titanium, Steel and super alloys, have been developed and type certified; Directionally Solidified (DS) casting technology and high temperature tip brazing technology for the High Pressure and Low Pressure turbine blades & vanes have been developed;

This is very significant. Kaveri was suffering from the hot end issue. It's been solved.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Aug 2010 23:58

Pratyush wrote:Just an amateur question, what are the skills required to design a top of the line jet engine?

Skills required are in the areas of thermodynamics, aerodynamics, Computational Fluid Dynamics, Finite Element analysis, metallurgy, very high tech manufacturing, etc. to name a few of the key areas.

Telang · Post by **Telang** » 26 Aug 2010 00:17

The PIB press release quotes information given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in written reply to Shri N Balaganga in Rajya Sabha today (Wednesday, August 25, 2010):

Directionally Solidified (DS) casting technology and high temperature tip brazing technology for the High Pressure and Low Pressure turbine blades & vanes have been developed.

Kaveri engine testing under simulated altitude and forward speed conditions during February 2010 has been successfully completed. Another engine has been integrated with IL-76 aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Moscow for ground and flight test which is expected to complete by October 2010.
These two major milestones would make ‘Kaveri’ engine certified for flight operations.

Whether Kaveri powers LCA or not, I am happy that India at last designed and produced one Turbojet engine that could be certified as flight-worthy. This is the starting point, and I am sure we will travel a very very long distance from here.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Aug 2010 00:19

Telang wrote: Whether Kaveri powers LCA or not, I am happy that India at last designed and produced one Turbojet engine that could be certified as flight-worthy.

Its a Turbofan not a turbojet.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 26 Aug 2010 00:23

When Kaveri really spins there will surely be many spinoffs.
Jai ho

{in the back ground Hum honge kaam yaab , hum honge kaam yaab ek din
thoda dil may hai vishwas , thoda hai vishwas...]

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 26 Aug 2010 01:31

Guys, Have I finally become completely senile? What is being celebrated as a great achievement here?

Is it the reference to directionally solidified blades? I thought Kaveri has always had directionally solidified blades and it was single crystal blades that was being developed.

Also, the PIB press release doesn't confirm that the milestones (for getting it to be certified as flight worthy) have been achieved yet. It just says that it is expected to be achieved by Oct 2010. Haven't we heard of several such Oct 2010 in the past?

Why this premature lungi dance now?

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 26 Aug 2010 03:03

senile!

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 26 Aug 2010 03:35

chackojoseph wrote:Its true. I have put that as a news (link)

twelve materials that include Titanium, Steel and super alloys, have been developed and type certified; Directionally Solidified (DS) casting technology and high temperature tip brazing technology for the High Pressure and Low Pressure turbine blades & vanes have been developed;
This is very significant. Kaveri was suffering from the hot end issue. It's been solved.

That's fine, but when are you going to bring out your article/report on it - sorry to be pushy, but it has been quite some time since you have promised this, isn't it?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 26 Aug 2010 10:56

rgsrini wrote:Guys, Have I finally become completely senile? What is being celebrated as a great achievement here?

Is it the reference to directionally solidified blades? I thought Kaveri has always had directionally solidified blades and it was single crystal blades that was being developed.

Also, the PIB press release doesn't confirm that the milestones (for getting it to be certified as flight worthy) have been achieved yet. It just says that it is expected to be achieved by Oct 2010. Haven't we heard of several such Oct 2010 in the past?

Why this premature lungi dance now?

One major milestone is complete. And successful even though its late (was mentioned in the last AI that it would be finished last year). The second one (actual altitude testing in an Il-76) would be the last major milestone before integration with the LCA, ground runs on LCA, low and high speed taxi trials and eventual first flight. That's why the lungi dance - something to celebrate after all the "non-progress".

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Aug 2010 11:06

>> India at last designed and produced one Turbojet engine that could be certified as flight-worthy.

indeed its the first path-breaking step to formation of Empire. even Chenghiz started out with a small band in some unknown steppe...someday those who laugh at us as barbaric and incompetent will yet feel the hooves of our horses on their farmland...