Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 12 Apr 2010 11:27

Awesome video for the new T3 Delhi Airport. Will be the 2nd largest in the world. Opens July 3rd. Truly World Class.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsyNQ5UCDFU

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 19 Apr 2010 21:02

Air India resumed its Chicago-Mumbai-Chicago and Newark-Ahmedabad flights with a techinical stopover at Cairo, while Jet Airways operated Delhi-Toronto and Mumbai-Newark services via Athens.

Air India would also operate a combined flight AI 191/144 on the Delhi-Ahmedabad-Mumbai-Newark-Mumbai to clear the backlog of passengers between India and Newark.

What would the flight path be from Cairo to NY/Chicago ?

Over 41,000 stranded at Mumbai and Delhi airports: Govt

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 19 Apr 2010 23:56

I flew recently on New-Delhi - DC direct flight on AI. My experience was a pleasant surprise. I traveled expecting the worst but turns out it was better than Lufthansa's, BA's and KLM's of the world.
I don't travel looking for PYT's as Air hostess (Unless I am on KF

) so their age was irrelevant to me. But still it was mixture of slightly older and younger crew. The Air-hostess were ever so helpful in swapping seats on request even though the flight was completely booked.
Had clean plush seats, personal TV's with tons of entertainment , Good Veggie food and smiling helpful Hostesses. The toilets were clean and flight was smooth.
They had good collection of in flight magazines and it felt more spacious. I personally would travel again by AI. No more European Airlines for me.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 20 Apr 2010 01:04

^^^ After all these years of using AI , I finally did register for their flying returns as I intend to use them more. Very convenient only from Duplicity. They just need to polish up their onward connections from Delhi to southern cities with the least layover and it will be a winner for many east coast travelers from the mid-Atlantic region.

For Chicago/NY/NJ to Mumbai they have excellent connections to southern cities in India which was the reason for my using them earlier.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 20 Apr 2010 10:36

If BRF sepahis can spare some time peek into the refurbished domestic terminal at Mumbai on SSC.Its fabulous given its supposed to be a transition job.

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 22 Apr 2010 22:00

Air India March salary delayed by a month; 2 Pak offices shut

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 845065.cms

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 22 Apr 2010 22:37

Heathrow green light too late for Air India
Weird heading

but it contains some surprising revelations for AI haters.

Calcutta passengers who were headed for London on Wednesday last week via Delhi were diverted to Frankfurt where they faced entry problems because Indian nationals need visas to get into Germany.

“We bussed them over to England in ‘sealed’ coaches to get round the immigration issue,” the official said.

Air India has been putting up passengers who were in transit or had checked in at a hotel near Heathrow. “They were complaining they did not have their baggage so our people managed to get in (air side), recover their baggage and deliver it to them. They were pretty happy.”

The consensus among affected passengers is that Air India has been more “British” in handling the crisis – it has gone about looking after its passengers with the quiet efficiency that distinguished English behaviour in the old days.

One said: “We complain all the time about Air India but when it comes to it, it gets the job done.”

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 23 Apr 2010 03:11

VikasRaina wrote:I flew recently on New-Delhi - DC direct flight on AI. My experience was a pleasant surprise. I traveled expecting the worst but turns out it was better than Lufthansa's, BA's and KLM's of the world.
I don't travel looking for PYT's as Air hostess (Unless I am on KF ) so their age was irrelevant to me. But still it was mixture of slightly older and younger crew. The Air-hostess were ever so helpful in swapping seats on request even though the flight was completely booked.
Had clean plush seats, personal TV's with tons of entertainment , Good Veggie food and smiling helpful Hostesses. The toilets were clean and flight was smooth.
They had good collection of in flight magazines and it felt more spacious. I personally would travel again by AI. No more European Airlines for me.

Maybe it is the effect of witholding salary.

Finally they may have started to understand the new rule of the game.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2010 21:21

well I think they have also got rid of the old 747s purchased in early 1990s and replacements are all swank new 777 and 747 which AI ordered around 40 I think?

Vikas has the formula right - once you let go of the wine and women angle, all one needs is a nice seat, reasonable hot food, good toilets and a decent set of co-passengers (which one a flight to US is not hard).

I met a guy in bangkok who used bangladesh biman a couple times to fly into kolkata. he said lot of nepali passengers were
also on the flight as were indians. the scene on boarding resembled getting into a city bus in a village with people clambering
over seats and 'reserving' empty seats for their buddies and lots of shouting , with sacks of stuff kept in the overhead bins.
after a couple trips, he decided to pay more and fly indian airlines on same route

for some reason, lots of nepalis in thailand even in phuket where they have set up some street clothes markets. not sure
how legal their status is, but loads of attitude toward indians.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Apr 2010 23:33

Singha wrote: for some reason, lots of nepalis in thailand even in phuket where they have set up some street clothes markets. not sure
how legal their status is, but loads of attitude toward indians.

Till recently nepali pilots in India were being paid expat salaries basically because some bumbling idiot in some airline started it off.

During recent contract renewals, airlines refused to pay expat salaries and instead offered them only Indian salaries on renewal. A whole lot of them left because of this. Good riddance.

Singha ji, you are absolutely right about their attitudes towards Indians. A stiff verbal kick sets them right very quickly.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Apr 2010 23:52

Singha wrote:well I think they have also got rid of the old 747s purchased in early 1990s and replacements are all swank new 777 and 747 which AI ordered around 40 I think?

AI hasn't ordered any new 747s. The last one (Velha Goa) was delivered in 1996. There are only 5 or 6 747s still active in the AI fleet. All the new ones are 777s which being new are very good. I am interested to see how they maintain these aircraft though. That is the main issue. I am sure when the 747s were first delivered they were clean and comfortable just like the new 777s. AI has ordered 27 B787-8s. They will be the mainstay of its fleet in the future (i.e. if they don't run out of money yet again and finally go belly up).

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 24 Apr 2010 03:49

Singha wrote:well I think they have also got rid of the old 747s purchased in early 1990s and replacements are all swank new 777 and 747 which AI ordered around 40 I think?

Vikas has the formula right - once you let go of the wine and women angle, all one needs is a nice seat, reasonable hot food, good toilets and a decent set of co-passengers (which one a flight to US is not hard).

I met a guy in bangkok who used bangladesh biman a couple times to fly into kolkata. he said lot of nepali passengers were
also on the flight as were indians. the scene on boarding resembled getting into a city bus in a village with people clambering
over seats and 'reserving' empty seats for their buddies and lots of shouting , with sacks of stuff kept in the overhead bins.
after a couple trips, he decided to pay more and fly indian airlines on same route

for some reason, lots of nepalis in thailand even in phuket where they have set up some street clothes markets. not sure
how legal their status is, but loads of attitude toward indians.

Me thinks the most important part is sales and ground service. Also punctiuality, as is duty of care. Put is this way, I would never trust AI with my kid traveling alone. Would not have any problems with KLM, Lufthasa, BA etc.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Apr 2010 06:55

I don't travel much anymore, but I am happy as long as I have a seat to sit, food to eat and a loo to pee. I don't drink, so drinks doesn't matter. I eat pretty much anything, so I am glad if the food isn't stale. I am too old, so it doesn't matter if the Ts are P or Y. But I would prefer not to be scowled at, that's all.

And yes, I want it to take off somewhat on time, and land at somewhat on place and somewhat on time, and the baggage to come on the carousel.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Apr 2010 08:50

Idli beats sandwich
A food outlet at the Hyderabad airport, which used to sell sandwiches and croissants too, has shifted to idlis and freshly-made dosas. Sales, says a person in the know, have gone from 400 to 4,000. One of our frequent fliers says he wishes the airlines too would switch from fake French food to genuine Indian food.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 25 Apr 2010 18:43

A passenger, who was travelling with his family, said "oxygen masks fell down. We all got scared. This is a re-birth. Many passengers fell down from their seats".

Emirates flight suffers air pocket fall, plunges 15,000 feet

This was waiting to happen. I have noticed most people on domestic flights in India do not wear their seat-belts and hang around the aisle area with their friends when traveling in large groups. Doobai flights are likely no different. On one the flights a passenger in her 50's sitting next to me even refused to buckle her seat belts and was faking it, till I told her that I did not want her falling on me if the flight encountered turbulence and she went free floating.

That really scared her to death.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 26 Apr 2010 15:49

Bade wrote:Doobai flights are likely no different.

Doobai flights also would have large number of passengers who get all uppity feelings when they are on the flight. Air lines are considered as one's private care, and air hostesses and stewards considered as house maids. Looks like lots of the frusturation comes out during the journey back home

.

Local media how ever highlighted a few things (this they got it from the passengers).
1. The pilot of the flight did not make any announcements/warnings. During my flight journeys, I have noticed the pilots giving a kind of warning that we are passing over an area where chances of air pockets are high, and people should buckle up. Noticed this many times when flying to Japan on Singapore Air Lines.
2. The airport authorities knew about some mishap only when they saw passengers with bleeding injuries coming out. Isnt it a standard procedure for the pilot to inform the airport authorities on wireless much in advance?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Apr 2010 19:05

toi says the pilot radioed ahead to airport authorities to prepare for casualties.

sometimes these turbulences are very unknown and nobody has a clue they occur.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 Apr 2010 19:06

There have been conflicting reports in the media on the turbulence encountered. Some reported it was 200 ft onlee drop and I read one which reported a 15,000ft drop.

Zee tv reported turbulence encountered over Goa (on a Doobai-COK flt) and print media said over bangalore. None have their story straight.

In any case not all turbulence comes with advance warning. During a flight in massa, as we were heading towards Indianapolis to land we had free fall with no warning from pilots, for what felt like a good minute or two with coffee cups going up in the air and splashing the contents all over us. That was the most scary experience I have had so far, other than landing in Chicago when a tornado was rampaging close by mid-way airport with plenty of advance warning by the captain.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 26 Apr 2010 21:18

No way in HELL a plane can fall 15,000 feet by an air pocket. Do the Fyzzics and Maths. It is more like 200-500ft. 1000ft tops.

And the pilot have no way of knowing about an air pocket ahead unless it involves condensation. The weather radar does not pick up air. It picks up water only. There are a number of recorded events where planes hit air pocket and fell, throwing people against the ceiling. The last I heard was a BA plane over Bay of Bengal in 2007.

The flight path doesn't go to Bangalore. It should be Mangalore ARTC under whose control the plane was.

And finally, I ALWAYS wear my belts when seated. I just loosen it a bit, that's all.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 Apr 2010 21:24

Yes, the 15k ft number was suspicious and the 200ft I thought was too low to cause the reported injuries.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Apr 2010 07:07

Bade wrote:Yes, the 15k ft number was suspicious and the 200ft I thought was too low to cause the reported injuries.

Bade, won't you die, if you fall 200 ft? Why it should be different if you are in a plane?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 27 Apr 2010 07:21

To free float the plane has to fall faster than what the earth pulls you with which is 1g. Pretty soon you are stuck to the ceiling as it continues to free fall and you travel only the distance inside the aircraft ~ 10 ft max irrespective of if the plane falls 200ft or 2000ft, no ?

The impact of falling 200ft while on the ground a height of a 20 storey building is different, as it can kill you. Not in a plane though, unless there are repeated impacts to do severe head injuries.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Apr 2010 09:45

Well, it is a bit complicated than that.

If you (magically) remove the lift from the plane, you will not hit the top. You will just feel the weightlessness, and probably slowly float, as the plane falls under G. In normal cases, the air pocket hits the plane with negative lift. That is why people hit the ceiling.

Remember the old adage. It is not the fall, but the sudden stop that kills you. Imagine you get a jolt of just 1G in any direction. When you hit the wall, it will be like FALLING the same distance.

Example: Assume a 6 foot man standing on the floor of the plane. The ceiling is 10 foot high. If the plane gets hit by a 1G downward jolt, he will hit the ceiling just like being dropped on the head from a height of 4 feet. That is assuming the acceleration continues for the ~1 second it takes for him to hit the ceiling. The plane will fall just 8 feet during that time.

Then, if the plane stops falling under 1G, he will hit the floor, like a fall from 10 feet high.

Both case will injure you, if not, kill you.

Anyway, we can see that it is not the distance, but the rate of the fall that can injure you. I had been through air pockets that pushed us down 500 feet, but all we felt was the stomach churning, That is because it happened slowly.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 27 Apr 2010 20:21

Dileep, close but no sugar.

it is estimated that anything that stops you with a force greater than 25 Gs will kill you. Anything greater than 10 Gs will cause you serious injuries. Thus if anything stops you with less than 10 Gs will not kill you.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Apr 2010 20:43

Sure. Now, YOU tell me. What is the G involved when someone falls on his head from a height of 4 feet, under earth gravity, ie 1G?

To be precise, you are hanging from a band around your ankle, suspended vertically over a flat concrete surface. The crown of your head is 4 ft above the surface. Someone cuts the band and lets you fall. What is the G involved in this case? And would it kill you?

What if you fall flat on your front and back body? What if on the feet? What if the surface is wooden? What if it is aluminium sheet covered in molded plastic?

The 10G you are talking about is sustained G, like the G you get on a turning airplane, or a rollercoaster. What we consider here is the impact G, which depends upon the relative velocity of the bodies and the elastic and plastic properties of theirs. It also depends upon where on the body the impact happens.

Now, ANY kind of air effect on a commercial airliner will exceed a few Gs, and if you are wearing the seatbelt, you will be perfectly safe on the seat. The injuries happen to people who aren't wearing the belt, when they are thrown around.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 27 Apr 2010 21:39

DDM all got it twisted

The incident happened in near Goa/Mangalore which is in Bangalore Area / Zone. In case you are wondering what Dubai - Cochin flight was doing there, fyi, all flights from "Gelf" to cochin / mangalore / calicut (same case with Hyderabad / Bangalore / Chennai and other south citites) comes thru Goa, rather enters India thru Goa. This is to avoid crossing of Goa - Aden and South India - Muscat routes.

However from Trivandrum there is a direct route to Aden. Since the flights from Colombo, Male and Singapore to "gelf" can avoid direct flights over Indian mainland

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 28 Apr 2010 02:40

Dileep wrote:Sure. Now, YOU tell me. What is the G involved when someone falls on his head from a height of 4 feet, under earth gravity, ie 1G?

To be precise, you are hanging from a band around your ankle, suspended vertically over a flat concrete surface. The crown of your head is 4 ft above the surface. Someone cuts the band and lets you fall. What is the G involved in this case? And would it kill you?

What if you fall flat on your front and back body? What if on the feet? What if the surface is wooden? What if it is aluminium sheet covered in molded plastic?

The 10G you are talking about is sustained G, like the G you get on a turning airplane, or a rollercoaster. What we consider here is the impact G, which depends upon the relative velocity of the bodies and the elastic and plastic properties of theirs. It also depends upon where on the body the impact happens.

Now, ANY kind of air effect on a commercial airliner will exceed a few Gs, and if you are wearing the seatbelt, you will be perfectly safe on the seat. The injuries happen to people who aren't wearing the belt, when they are thrown around.

I am talking about impact Gs. Anything less than impact 10 Gs will not kill you. It can hurt you but not kill you. Heck a football player absorb 10 Gs hit several times in his career and lived to see the day.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 28 Apr 2010 07:17

Hitesh wrote: I am talking about impact Gs. Anything less than impact 10 Gs will not kill you. It can hurt you but not kill you. Heck a football player absorb 10 Gs hit several times in his career and lived to see the day.

Well, answer the questions then. Will you die if you fall on your head from 4 ft height?

Or did I miss your original point?

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 28 Apr 2010 21:15

Rant On* Why has Coimbatore airport not been developed or upgraded at all over the last 15 or so years, despite strong demand for domestic and international routes. I mean its attrocious, seats are old and tired, there is over capacity, we dont even have enough chairs to sit on. Baggage conveyor belt doesnt even work!

Its taken 2 years for them to think about upgrading the airport, finally construction for a new terminal has taken place (they don't think it will open for another year or 2). All this while you have a massive engineering/business/education hub in coimbatore, one of the biggest textile clusters in the country in Tirupur which generates billions.

Take the roads in Coimbatore as well, NH-47 (not Kochi side) has gross over capacity and has only been turned into a 4 lane road recently and only in city limits (avinashi road area), outside coimbatore (ex L&T by pass road) road conditions are poor (2 lane only), roads are packed. Its a joke!! There needs to be a serious upgrade of roads there.

Coimbatore has had huge neglect over the last 10 years are so despite the amount it contributes to the economy, not to mention the nearby tourist areas of Ooty, Kodaikanal, Yercaud etc etc which draws 1000's of tourists every year.

*Rant off*

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 29 Apr 2010 20:59

IndiGo seeks to buy 150 planes.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 30 Apr 2010 21:51

Dileep wrote:
Hitesh wrote: I am talking about impact Gs. Anything less than impact 10 Gs will not kill you. It can hurt you but not kill you. Heck a football player absorb 10 Gs hit several times in his career and lived to see the day.
Well, answer the questions then. Will you die if you fall on your head from 4 ft height?

Or did I miss your original point?

Only if you hit the ground with your head at the right angle, will your head snap or cause a fracture. Like if you have a noose around your neck and you fall 4 feet, the noose will tighten up and jerk your head with such force that your neck snaps. For comparison's sake, a NFL hit that causes a concussion is usually around 98 Gs. You can look it at here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/24/sport ... lmets.html

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 02 May 2010 03:29

Photos of the Delhi Airport Metro Express trainset. The new expressline will connect DEL T3 to the central railway station. Scroll down the first few posts:
link
All pictures courtesy of the SSC India poster Indian Rockstars.

The colourscheme looks excellent. Definitely more appealing looking than the dull dark blue of Hong Kong airport express, in my eyes.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 14 May 2010 20:56

x-post from the Intelligence thread...
Sky Marshals may be grounded

The comments section is also an eye-opener. There is a gent who said that Sky Marshals should be asked to make announcements, serve food etc

.It seems they are sitting idle and have to be made 'productive'. These are the level of intelligence some of the 'elite educated' in the nation have. God save the nation !!

manish · Post by **manish** » 15 May 2010 09:57

Today the new Integrated Terminal at Mangalore 'International' Airport gets opened up. Mangaloreans are all quite happy because the new one has been almost complete and awaiting inauguration for almost a year thanks to some road connectivity issues. The new one looks light years ahead of the earlier cow shed, which is now set to become a dedicated cargo terminal. Thanks to its positioning, the new terminal is also closer to the city by 7-8kms compared to the old one.

Mangalore Airport’s Integrated Terminal Set for Saturday Inaugural

Just to give a perspective and explain the excitement:

Before - one can't help but admire the foresight of the AAI 'designers' from the License Raj era who probably designed the terminal to be a cargo terminal right from day 1 - ah, the beauty!

After - believe it or not, this is AAI as well, but new and improved.

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 May 2010 14:08

Today the new Integrated Terminal at Mangalore 'International' Airport gets opened up. Mangaloreans are all quite happy because the new one has been almost complete and awaiting inauguration for almost a year thanks to some road connectivity issues. The new one looks light years ahead of the earlier cow shed, which is now set to become a dedicated cargo terminal. Thanks to its positioning, the new terminal is also closer to the city by 7-8kms compared to the old one.

Isnt the Mysore Airport also opening today?

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 15 May 2010 16:38

sum wrote:
Today the new Integrated Terminal at Mangalore 'International' Airport gets opened up. Mangaloreans are all quite happy because the new one has been almost complete and awaiting inauguration for almost a year thanks to some road connectivity issues. The new one looks light years ahead of the earlier cow shed, which is now set to become a dedicated cargo terminal. Thanks to its positioning, the new terminal is also closer to the city by 7-8kms compared to the old one.
Isnt the Mysore Airport also opening today?

yes, again...it opened last sep. too.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 May 2010 00:20

sum wrote: The new one looks light years ahead of the earlier cow shed,

Finally it is done. I have seen this structure form the 70s and it has taken a long time.

girish.r · Post by **girish.r** » 19 May 2010 18:20

Acharya wrote:
sum wrote: The new one looks light years ahead of the earlier cow shed,
Finally it is done. I have seen this structure form the 70s and it has taken a long time.

Well i cant call it a STUCTURE

munna · Post by **munna** » 22 May 2010 07:47

Air India Express aircraft overshoots runaway, causalities feared

Very sad, very sad!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 May 2010 08:01

160 feared dead.