US and PRC relationship & India

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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ramana »

Source

TELEGRAPH.CO.UK
Obama could kill fossil fuels overnight with a nuclear dash for thorium
If Barack Obama were to marshal America’s vast scientific and strategic resources behind a new Manhattan Project, he might reasonably hope to reinvent the global energy landscape and sketch an end to our dependence on fossil fuels within three to five years.

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Published: 6:55PM BST 29 Aug 2010

We could then stop arguing about wind mills, deepwater drilling, IPCC hockey sticks, or strategic reliance on the Kremlin. History will move on fast.

Muddling on with the status quo is not a grown-up policy. The International Energy Agency says the world must invest $26 trillion (£16.7 trillion) over the next 20 years to avert an energy shock. The scramble for scarce fuel is already leading to friction between China, India, and the West.

There is no certain bet in nuclear physics but work by Nobel laureate Carlo Rubbia at CERN (European Organization for Nuclear Research) on the use of thorium as a cheap, clean and safe alternative to uranium in reactors may be the magic bullet we have all been hoping for, though we have barely begun to crack the potential of solar power.

Dr Rubbia says a tonne of the silvery metal – named after the Norse god of thunder, who also gave us Thor’s day or Thursday - produces as much energy as 200 tonnes of uranium, or 3,500,000 tonnes of coal. A mere fistful would light London for a week.

Thorium eats its own hazardous waste. It can even scavenge the plutonium left by uranium reactors, acting as an eco-cleaner. "It’s the Big One," said Kirk Sorensen, a former NASA rocket engineer and now chief nuclear technologist at Teledyne Brown Engineering.

"Once you start looking more closely, it blows your mind away. You can run civilisation on thorium for hundreds of thousands of years, and it’s essentially free. You don’t have to deal with uranium cartels," he said.

Thorium is so common that miners treat it as a nuisance, a radioactive by-product if they try to dig up rare earth metals. The US and Australia are full of the stuff. So are the granite rocks of Cornwall. You do not need much: all is potentially usable as fuel, compared to just 0.7pc for uranium.

After the Manhattan Project, US physicists in the late 1940s were tempted by thorium for use in civil reactors. It has a higher neutron yield per neutron absorbed. It does not require isotope separation, a big cost saving. But by then America needed the plutonium residue from uranium to build bombs.

"They were really going after the weapons," said Professor Egil Lillestol, a world authority on the thorium fuel-cycle at CERN. "It is almost impossible make nuclear weapons out of thorium because it is too difficult to handle. It wouldn’t be worth trying." It emits too many high gamma rays.

You might have thought that thorium reactors were the answer to every dream but when CERN went to the European Commission for development funds in 1999-2000, they were rebuffed.

Brussels turned to its technical experts, who happened to be French because the French dominate the EU’s nuclear industry. "They didn’t want competition because they had made a huge investment in the old technology," he said.

Another decade was lost. It was a sad triumph of vested interests over scientific progress. "We have very little time to waste because the world is running out of fossil fuels. Renewables can’t replace them. Nuclear fusion is not going work for a century, if ever," he said.

The Norwegian group Aker Solutions has bought Dr Rubbia’s patent for the thorium fuel-cycle, and is working on his design for a proton accelerator at its UK operation.

Victoria Ashley, the project manager, said it could lead to a network of pint-sized 600MW reactors that are lodged underground, can supply small grids, and do not require a safety citadel. It will take £2bn to build the first one, and Aker needs £100mn for the next test phase.

The UK has shown little appetite for what it regards as a "huge paradigm shift to a new technology". Too much work and sunk cost has already gone into the next generation of reactors, which have another 60 years of life.

So Aker is looking for tie-ups with the US, Russia, or China. The Indians have their own projects - none yet built - dating from days when they switched to thorium because their weapons programme prompted a uranium ban.

America should have fewer inhibitions than Europe in creating a leapfrog technology. The US allowed its nuclear industry to stagnate after Three Mile Island in 1979.

Anti-nuclear neorosis is at last ebbing. The White House has approved $8bn in loan guarantees for new reactors, yet America has been strangely passive. Where is the superb confidence that put a man on the moon?

A few US pioneers are exploring a truly radical shift to a liquid fuel based on molten-fluoride salts, an idea once pursued by US physicist Alvin Weinberg at Oak Ridge National Lab in Tennessee in the 1960s. The original documents were retrieved by Mr Sorensen.

Moving away from solid fuel may overcome some of thorium’s "idiosyncracies". "You have to use the right machine. You don’t use diesel in a petrol car: you build a diesel engine," said Mr Sorensen.

Thorium-fluoride reactors can operate at atmospheric temperature. "The plants would be much smaller and less expensive. You wouldn’t need those huge containment domes because there’s no pressurized water in the reactor. It’s close-fitting," he said.

Nuclear power could become routine and unthreatening. But first there is the barrier of establishment prejudice.

When Hungarian scientists led by Leo Szilard tried to alert Washington in late 1939 that the Nazis were working on an atomic bomb, they were brushed off with disbelief. Albert Einstein interceded through the Belgian queen mother, eventually getting a personal envoy into the Oval Office.

Roosevelt initially fobbed him off. He listened more closely at a second meeting over breakfast the next day, then made up his mind within minutes. "This needs action," he told his military aide. It was the birth of the Manhattan Project. As a result, the US had an atomic weapon early enough to deter Stalin from going too far in Europe.

The global energy crunch needs equal "action". If it works, Manhattan II could restore American optimism and strategic leadership at a stroke: if not, it is a boost for US science and surely a more fruitful way to pull the US out of perma-slump than scattershot stimulus.

Even better, team up with China and do it together, for all our sakes.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Arihant »

Joel kotkin in Frobes lists some reasons why China's economic rise might not be as inevitable as it is made out to be:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/23/china- ... otkin.html

Perhaps we could nudge some of these scenarios in the right direction. I'm reminded of a Churchill quote I particularly like:
"I like things to happen; and if hey don't happen, I like to make them happen."
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by yantra »

Please tell me if this is not the right forum for this...
Quote from Mr.B Raman's Strategic Analysis:
The administration of President Barack Obama has called for a substantive dialogue without pre-conditions between His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Beijing on the Tibetan issue and called upon the Government of Nepal to honour its past commitment to allow the Tibetans the freedom of travel to India through Nepal.


2. Its annual report on Tibet submitted to the Congress on August 19 says inter alia: “Encouraging substantive dialogue between Beijing and the Dalai Lana is an important foreign policy objective of the United States. We continue to encourage representatives of the PRC and the Dalai Lama to hold direct and substantive discussions aimed at the resolution of difference, without precondition..... The US government believes that the Dalai Lama can be a constructive partner for China as it deals with the difficult challenge of continuing tensions in Tibetan areas. His views are widely reflected within Tibetan society, and he commands the respect of the vast majority of Tibetans. His consistent advocacy on non-violence is an important principle for making progress toward a lasting solution....China's engagement with the Dalai Lama or his representatives to resolve problems facing Tibetans is in the interests of both the Chinese government and the Tibetan people. Failure to address these problems will lead to greater tensions inside China and will be an impediment to China's social and economic development.”
More here - http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot.com/
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Sanjay M »

China and India: A War of Giants

Normally, that blowhard Eric Margolis can't resist bashing India outright, but this time he's just more interested in dramatizing the Sino-Indian conflict.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by putnanja »

KP Nayar writing in Telegraph ...

THEY HAVE DONE IT AGAIN - America’s role in India’s visa row with China
Like many aspects of Sino-Indian relations, last week’s media frenzy over the Northern Army Commander’s non-visit can be traced to the shenanigans in Indo-US relations. The United States of America’s military industrial complex and the American lobby in New Delhi needed to whip up fears about Beijing in the run-up to the trip to Washington, in the last week of September, of the defence minister, A.K. Antony. And the rancour over Jaswal, which has been beneath the surface in India’s relations with China, came in handy. It was more than a month ago that the Chinese expressed their reservations about receiving Jaswal. Immediately, with a swiftness that took the Chinese by surprise, India suspended all military exchanges with Beijing. One of the more reassuring aspects of this episode was that, for over a month, the entire controversy remained under wraps.

The ministry of external affairs normally leaks like a sieve, but the discipline with which this extremely sensitive development in Sino-Indian relations was prevented from getting into the spotlight proved that the MEA’s east Asia division and the Indian embassy in Beijing are run as tight ships. This is the absolute need of the times, an imperative to meet the challenges in bilateral relations with Beijing. The news that eventually broke, last week, of an impasse in Sino-Indian military exchanges was a deliberate leak, which, of course, is not unusual in New Delhi. But if the discipline of the MEA’s east Asia division was reassuring, it was equally disconcerting that South Block has now traced the leak to those seeking to protect and promote US interests.

The American embassy in New Delhi has long boasted that it can do anything it wants with sections of the capital’s media. The mission’s officials have in the past narrated to this writer, off the record, instances where they have used their moles in the media to bring about policy changes within the Indian government. The manner of the spin of the army visa story is the latest example of the Americans doing it again. It is absolutely important for them that a paranoia should be whipped up in New Delhi over China’s ‘evil’ intentions against India in the days and weeks before the defence minister travels to Washington.
When Pranab Mukherjee was shifted out of the ministry of defence in the last big cabinet reshuffle of the first United Progressive Alliance government, the Americans miscalculated that Mukherjee’s successor would be someone they could manipulate or push around. They found Mukherjee far too tough to crack, but they also mistook the soft-spoken Antony’s demeanour and brevity as shortcomings in a defence minister.


...
...
But the MEA is unlikely to play ball in this scheme. It wanted to keep the Jaswal controversy under wraps because it had taken the effective action of freezing all military exchanges with China in retaliation for the discourtesy shown the Northern Military Commander. While the MEA was convinced that this firm retaliation had rattled the Chinese, it did not want the situation to escalate through any emotive debate in the media over a holy cow that the army continues to be for an influential section of Indian public opinion.

The UPA’s leadership believes that the issue has to be resolved at the political and diplomatic levels, and is looking at the military retaliation of freezing bilateral defence exchanges as merely a short-term tactic. There is a powerful school of thought in the UPA leadership which believes that the Jaswal episode may not have been a bad thing altogether and that its dramatic nature may help clear the air over where China actually stands on the status of Jammu and Kashmir.

Continuing the Washington- inspired spin designed to escalate the visa row, there were weekend reports that China’s ambassador to India, Zhang Yan, had been summoned to South Block last Friday to be administered a rebuke over the treatment of Jaswal. Zhang and South Block officials have been discussing the issue for weeks now. Friday’s meeting was to finalize the arrangements for travel to China by Gautam Bambawale, the MEA’s joint-secretary for east Asia, who will reach Beijing this weekend to work out political solutions to irritants in Sino-Indian relations, including the Jaswal case. Hopefully, if Bambawale’s mission, which is on schedule at the time of writing, is successful, Antony may not have to succumb to American tactics in Washington on September 27.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Venkarl »

if MIC is sooo intervened into Indian defense matters........ it'd be a blow to MIC if GoI orders a European or Russian fighter for MRCA contract..... :P

Good job KP Nayar for whatever you wrote on Brit owned Telegraph... Brits Vs Yankees :wink:
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by putnanja »

KP Nayar does have some good contacts in US. He is the US correspondent for Telegraph and does come up with good info often. I wouldn't dismiss his article out of hand.

Given the fact that his articles are so pro-PMO/UPA, may be there is something happening for him to write this piece.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by csharma »

KP Nayar article makes a lot of sense. The Selig Harrison article followed by the media bombardment in India. Can't India act against the moles in the media and the govt,
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Neshant »

Even though CNN is a propaganda pumping machine, I find it far fetched.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Christopher Sidor »

putnanja wrote:KP Nayar writing in Telegraph ...

THEY HAVE DONE IT AGAIN - America’s role in India’s visa row with China
Seriously, the article is insinuating that this story was leaked by an american mole or an american sympathizer in GoI /MEA deliberately. And all to push India into the American embrace. It harks back to the old communist/socialist days where everything bad got blamed on the Americans or imperialist or some foreigner.

America did not tell china to deny a visa to the general. The Chinese did it themselves. This proves what Chinese intentions are. It is said that "actions speak louder than words". And by this action China is shouting at the top of their lungs, something important .

Grow up Mr Nayar. Do you really believe that due to this visa fiasco, India is going to jump into the arms of the yanks and going to sign on 3 agreements? If India believes that these so called 3 agreements are in its interest, then we will sign them.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Aditya_V »

putnanja wrote:KP Nayar writing in Telegraph ...

THEY HAVE DONE IT AGAIN - America’s role in India’s visa row with China



The American embassy in New Delhi has long boasted that it can do anything it wants with sections of the capital’s media. The mission’s officials have in the past narrated to this writer, off the record, instances where they have used their moles in the media to bring about policy changes within the Indian government.
Boss there we have it from the Horse mouth from the US and media itself. Any idea how I can cross post in the General Discussion- Psy-ops and media watch thread?
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Cosmo_R »

Re the KP Nayar article. How do we know it is not a Chinese plant?.

The Chinese have insisted on giving Indians from Kashmir their China visas on papers separate from their Indian passports even as they insisted on Indian tourist visas for the Chinese workers. A clear violation of the visa terms.

It's not just the Americans IMHO who can control sections of India's media. If you take even a cursory look at 'advertorial' policy of one very large Indian media house, you'll see that 'space' in its national daily is available to anyone for hire. Anyone including corporates, governments and NGOs can 'pay for a favorable article—the fig leaf being that it is 'content' and brings 'fresh new perspectives'.

Take it with a large grain of salt. The Chinese don't wish us well regardless of whether we are in the US camp or not (1962). It's nothing personal: they are and have been intimidating SE Asian countries in South China Sea and The Sea Of Japan (West Sea/East Sea if you're Korean). So it's not that we are imagining Beijing's intentions as evidenced by its actions (MMS should not go to AP etc.).

The next logical extension of 'Southern Tibet' includes a major chunk north of the Vindhyas.

JMT
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by putnanja »

No one is defending China here, but at the same time don't discount US media manipulations too. They have a very large funded department of moulding public opinions in various countries to suit their agenda. And what KPN is saying makes lots of sense, given his previous articles. Based on that, in my opinion, this article isn't a chinese plant.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by svinayak »

putnanja wrote:No one is defending China here, but at the same time don't discount US media manipulations too. They have a very large funded department of moulding public opinions in various countries to suit their agenda. And what KPN is saying makes lots of sense, given his previous articles. Based on that, in my opinion, this article isn't a chinese plant.
Known as propaganda dept
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ramana »

It goes to the old saying "Just because you are paranoid doesn;t mean theres is nobody out to screw you!"
Just because the PRC is a cad, doesn't mean there is nobody out to influence/mold Indian opinion.
Both could be happening.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Ameet »

Beijing's Audacity And India’s Policies

http://www.eurasiareview.com/2010090175 ... icies.html

The main question is how will India deal with the military diplomacy face off hence forth. There are signs that China is trying to make it a non-issue in its usual deceptive manner. The Chinese, habituated with India’s lukewarm reaction or non-action in the past, may have miscalculated New Delhi’s response to the refusal of visa to Lt.Gen. Jaswal.


At the same time, it appears the Indian establishment did not want to blow up the incident. There has been little comment from the establishment, and Defence Minister A. K. Antony’s brief observation to television channels suggests they are going to sweep the issue as usual under the carpet. It is India’s free media which is increasingly playing the real role of the fourth estate, that has brought the issue to public notice. If the Indian government tries to brush aside this incident, then not only the government but also the people, would have to pay dearly for this omission.

Questions have been raised in the Indian media about why Lt.Gen. Jaswal, when he was the Corps Commander in charge of Arunachal Pradesh, was given a visa by the Chinese, and why Army Chief V.K.Singh as Eastern Command Chief was also accorded similar courtesy.

The answer rests in the international and domestic situation China was facing at that time, and weak Indian response to China giving stapled visas to Indians from J&K. China first tests the ground. The other parameters assess foreign pressures, the need to seek friends or supporters, and internal issues.

The Lt. Gen. Jaswal case is intrinsic to the party’s and PLA’s shifting position on Pakistan and India.

The crux of this Chinese move is much larger. It is a Pak-China strategy to convert the Kashmir issue into a India-Pak-China issue.

Another critical aspect is the PLA’s power and influence in shaping foreign policy. Today, the party-PLA relations are not the same as it used be in the pre-1988 period.


It is time to face some questions squarely. The Indian establishment including the army, demoralized by the 1962 reverses and the more recent Chinese economic and military development surge, appears to have adopted a defeatist complex, contrary to the assessment of independent Indian experts and analysts. Of course, some independent China experts who receive regular invitations from China and enjoy their hospitality, try to devise reasons on behalf of Beijing’s policies. Otherwise, those invitations will dry up.

Chinese military strategists who provide inputs for the PLA's strategic and tactical plans do not think that the 1962 situation entails today. Apart from their advantage in strategic nuclear warfare, they do not see that the PLA as a whole holds any significant advantage over the Indian forces. In fact, in some ways, they recognize certain drawbacks.

In 1993, two PLA Colonels wrote a book “The Next India-China War II, in which they stated that the next war will be three-dimensional-land, air and sea. Thereafter, China started building infrastructure along the border with India at a hectic pace.

Finally, when it was decided to place two Divisions in Arunachal Pradesh along with SU-29 fighters, and preparation for a strike corps, the Chinese criticism engineered a doubt in parts of the establishment. Thankfully, there has been no retraction of this policy of deployment.

The current mantra is the $60 billion trade with China, co-operation in climate change, co-operation in international fora like WTO and the G-8, and the old 1992 understanding to counter the West on human rights charges. A close look at each will classify that it is China that is the beneficiary, not India. In the area of trade China benefits from iron are imports, and pushing substandard goods into India. In climate change, there is no comparison with China being the second highest polluter in the world, with India way behind. On human rights issues China’s excesses with the law being dictated by the party does not compare with India’s legal system that the charged is innocent unless proved guilty.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ramana »

Please post complete article and author's credentials.

Free media or free for all media?

BTW, Indian Army is not demoralised after the 1962 debacle because it was a political blunder and not a military blunder. A defeated and demoralised force cannot achieve what it did 9 years later in 1971. It takes more than a generation to recover from such situations.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by sum »

So, were/are the rumors in the media about India planning stapled visas to Tibet etc true or are they just some jingo's wet dream which made it to the DDM?
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Cosmo_R »

Both PRC and US (along with other governments and Indian corporates) are planting stuff in the Indian media. The press is happy because it's 'content' and readership increases. The journalistic standards are not those of the NYT or WAPO (and even those two can be manipulated). Dig a little deeper on how Bennett Coleman provides 'corporate PR services' and you may come to the same conclusion I have.

On this specific issue, it's the Chinese who've started this row with the visas not the US. GoI would have liked to keep it quiet --because they always like to. Pro US or pro-Indian elements (that sounds funny as I write it :)) could have raised the emotional temperature--who knows. However, I do remember similar press 'outrage' when the Canadians refused visas to IB personnel earlier this year—who were the leakers? IIRC some of people denied visas were part of MMS' entourage.

KPN's article struck me as 'hastily written' from a style point and far too partisan—low on facts, long on assertions. True, some of his previous articles were on the mark but the past is not always a good guide in the journo game.

Not that GoI will do anything, but the way to retaliate (quietly) is to look at who was responsible for suppressing the riots in Sinkiang and Tibet all the way up the chain of command, and deny them visas if they ask for it.

Anyway, except for CPIM and a few holdovers from JNU, I think most of us are now convinced of PRC's malafide intentions.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ramana »

Pioneer reports:
Will abstain from Kashmir involvement: China

Beijing | PTI

China today said it had no intention to interfere in the Kashmir issue as it dismissed reports of presence of up to 11,000 PLA troops in Gilgit in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, but made it clear that it was not reviewing its stance on stapled visas to Kashmiris.

"As a neighbour and friend of both countries, China believes that the (Kashmir) issue should be left to the two countries so that it could be properly handled through dialogue and consultation," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu told a media briefing.

Clarifying on the Kashmir issue, the spokesperson said, "About Kashmir issue our position is that we believe it is an issue left over from history between India and Pakistan".

She rejected reports that up to 11,000 soldiers of the Peoples Liberation Army were in Gilgit in northern Kashmir, saying: "The story that China has deployed its military in northern part of Pakistan is totally groundless and out of ulterior purpose".

Her comments came in response to a New York Times opinion piece last week which said that 11,000 PLA men had been deployed in Gilgit-Baltistan area to build up its rail and road access to the warm waters of the Persian Gulf.

The report said that the troops had been deployed to safeguard the project as well as use them for working on the railway link across the Karakorams.

"Some people are fabricating reports to destroy relations between China, Pakistan and India. But their efforts will get nowhere," Jiang said.

Asked whether China would review the policy to issue stapled visas to people of Jammu and Kashmir, she said "about our visa policy toward inhabitants in the Indian controlled Kashmir region the policy is consistent and stays unchanged".

Her reference to "inhabitants of Jammu and Kashmir" left doubts whether the same policy was applied to areas of Kashmir under control of Pakistan, where China is reportedly undertaking several developmental projects.

She declined to take further questions on the subject when clarifications were sought about her reference to Gilgit as "northern Pakistan" without mentioning their disputed status.

"May be you want me to repeat. I have made our position very clear," she said. The spokesperson as well as the Chinese Ministry of National Defence said Beijing had not suspended bilateral military exchanges with India nor received any report from New Delhi about any suspension. On the issue of denial of visa to Lt Gen B S Jaswal,
who heads the Indian Army's Northern Command, Jiang Yu declined to give a direct answer.

Media reports in India had said that India had suspended all military exchanges with China in protest against the denial of the visa to Gen Jaswal.

On these reports, the spokesperson said: "After reading reports (about denial of visa to Gen Jaswal) we have checked with competent authority. The relevant media report is not true".

On China's assistance to Pakistan flood victims, Jiang Yu said China has so far given 120 million Yuan (USD 17 million).

"As Pakistan's close neighbour and all weather friend, the Chinese people empathises with people who are affected by severe natural disaster".

Without directly referring to remarks by US envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke asking China to step up its aid to the flood victims considering Beijing's close ties with Islamabad, Jiang said "our support to Pakistan is sincere and timely without
attaching any conditions. We will continue to assist within our capability and help Pakistan people".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by krisna »

'India, US need to partner to balance China in Indian Ocean'
With China increasing its military power and influence in the strategically crucial Indian Ocean, a noted American expert has urged the Obama administration to partner India to balance and counter Beijing's increasing influence in the region.
Nothing new in the article which is not known here.

Considering a spate of articles regarding china and India, many emanating from uncle.
Looks like uncle is making efforts to embrace India to counter china.(uncle version of string of pearls strategy on china).

US is in Af-pak, ASEAN Japan and only India (the big one which can really make a huge difference) is left to surround china.
recent moves- with vietnam/soko/weapons sale to Taiwan/overtures to India for sometime-- like the nuclear deal/MRCA contract and other weapons sales to India. The presence of chinese PLA troops in POK is also somewhat suspicious. Of course visa issues started by china helped in this at least from Indian POV to be alert and give nothing away.

Chinese POV-- growing unease about closeness of US-India cooperation.

Overall it should benefit India
1) keep a watch over borders and its area of interest.
2) augment fortifications of its borders.
3) increasing cooperation of all its neighbours.
4) court uncle but not become a rentier state.
5) continued economic growth with improvement in socio economic conditions.

ombaba visit will be viewed carefully by china. Pressure on India from ombaba wrt MRCA and other concessions ala nuclear deal etc.Unlikely for military war to occur though tensions will persist for foreseable future.
Interesting diplomacy 8)
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ramana »

krisna, Thanks for the posting and unlike others you do add your views which makes the post more valuable. Keep up the good effort.

ramana

PS: Expect the PRc to make India friendly gestures. I dont think there will be anything substantial during the visit.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by krisna »

^^^^
Thanks Ramanaji,
I will do my best.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by krisna »

China has major presence in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir: US based Gilgit activist
China has massive presence in Pakistan-administered Kashmir, said a US-based activist from Gilgit who added that massive investments were made by Beijing in that frontier region to expand the Karakoram Corridor as a strategic pathway.

Washingon-based political activist Senge H. Sering, who was in India for over a year until March 2010 as Visiting Fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA), warned the Indian government about the Chinese presence over the years in Pakistani Kashmir.
advantages to china to have POK under its control--- mainly economic also military
1)rapid connectivity to Pakistani ports lying in the gateway to the Strait of Hormuz and Suez Canal.
2) The region's close proximity to Afghanistan, Tajikistan and India, in addition to Tibet and Xinjiang, gives China diplomatic, strategic, logistical and political gains,
3) by linking the KH to Pakistani ports like Gwadar and Ormara, China will not just gain a strategic footprint and access to Afghanistan and the Persian Gulf but also could significantly influence the geopolitics and trade in the Indian Ocean Region as well as Central Asia.
the Gwadar-Karakoram Corridor combination endows China with a massive logistical advantage by significantly reducing the original distance of 16,000 km to a mere 2,500 km for the Chinese industrial areas to the Persian Gulf.
'Similarly, Kashgar, which is 3,500 km away from Chinese eastern shores, finds itself at less than 1,500 km from Pakistani ports near the Strait of Hormuz,'
Problems to India--

1) Opening of the north west flanks in J&K we might have to face them instead of bakis :evil:
2) we are cut off from the oil and gas rich central Asia physically. We cannot access them period. Air and sea are not aviable option considering the geographic locations. Central asia map
3) POK becomes china occupied territory thus legitimising it. Even if illegal china will not vacate it because of the military economic potential. India should have overwhelming superiority to vacate them which is not possible for few decades unless china ruptures internally(fat chance)

Even though the reports are suspicious from uncle, it is time for us to awake and cast a glance around our own backyard.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by krisna »

India Must Master the Great Game
another article basically saying to be "cool and level headed diplomacy" which the GOI is already into it.
The same stuff which many have been saying so far. :lol:
ramana
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ramana »

It looks like massa is trying to scare the dragon with bogey of the elephant/tiger* even when the tiger is more like a golden retreiver (friendly harmless puppy).

Last time this was done it led to the 1962 debacle. So the retrevier is making user no one mistakes it for a tiger but same time barks when there is any encroachment.

* Recall China's lions are dogs dressed up as lions based on travellers reports.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Pioneer Op_Ed, 3 Sep 2010
A riddle and an enigma

Premen Addy

The rulers of the Middle Kingdom are as unpredictable as they are inscrutable. They blow hot and cold in defiance of the seasons

Winston Churchill’s description of Russia in October 1939, “a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma”, is surely truer of contemporary China. The rulers of the Middle Kingdom are as unpredictable as they are inscrutable. They blow hot and cold in defiance of the seasons. New Delhi is having a spot of bother with Beijing, but that should come as no surprise to those accustomed to the variable moods of Chinese leaders down the ages: Silky one moment, brutal the next.

In 1942 Chairman Mao and his alter ego Ju Deh wrote to Jawaharlal Nehru appealing for medical aid for the beleaguered Communists in war-torn China. A mission under the iconic Dr Dwarkanath Kotnis and MA Atal was promptly despatched by the Indian National Congress and a letter of thanks was duly received by the future Prime Minister of India. Yet eight years later, in 1950, with Mao and Nehru in power, the Indian Prime Minister was subjected to a bruising personal attack in an official Chinese publication. Like Icarus of Greek legend, who flying too close to the Sun had his waxen wings burned and fell to his death in the Aegean Sea, those desirous of a close Chinese relationship with no real appreciation of the treacherous cross-currents of Chinese realpolitik do so at their peril.

The USSR and Vietnam were as lips to teeth in their closeness to China, but these flattered to deceive in the fullness of time. The Great Helmsman’s physician Dr Li Zhisui has left a revealing memoir — The Private Life of Chairman Mao — which includes numerous conversations in which Mao unburdened his soul: He hated all things Russian and marked out Russia and India as China’s future foes; he admired the United States, its distance from China’s shores guaranteeing Chinese security. All this as Beijing swore eternal friendship with Russia and India.

Without Soviet assistance, China’s Communists may never have achieved their triumph in the country’s civil war. Military historians accept that the Soviet demolition of Japan’s million-strong Kwantung Army was the swiftest and most devastating operation of World War II. The Soviets handed over Manchuria to their Chinese comrades, plus a huge quantity of captured Japanese arms and equipment. Without Manchuria — China’s Ruhr — Mao’s revolution would have been incomplete and so would his authority.

The seminal work of American author David Glantz — The Soviet Strategic Offensive in Manchuria, 1945 — is well worth reading. So also, as supplementaries, are Chris Bellamy’s Absolute War and Aleksandr Vasilevsky’s A Lifelong Cause. Marshal Vasilevsky was in command of the Soviet Union’s far eastern forces, whose victory Mao fulsomely eulogised: “The Red Army came to the aid of the Chinese people by driving out the aggressors. Such an example cannot be matched in the entire history of China.”

He understood well enough that his guerrilla legions were incapable of ousting battle-hardened Japanese formations, which if handed over by the Americans to Chiang Kai-shek’s Kuomintang would have presented an insuperable obstacle to Mao’s advance into northern China. Recognising his debt to Stalin and the USSR, he abused the former in private and the latter in public, as behoves a man whose alleged achievements were more myth and fantasy than proven fact. Jung Chang and Jon Halliday, in their tome, Mao: The Unknown Story, have exposed, through prodigious research into Chinese and Russian sources, the falsity of many of the claims made for the Long March, as related to Edgar Snow by Mao and published in Snow’s best-selling book, Red Star Over China. :!: :!: :!:

Li bears ample testimony to Mao as sexual predator and glutton: Feasting on his favourite pork dishes, even as China starved in the greatest man-made famine in recorded history. Nero merely fiddled while Rome burned! Like his disciple, the Cambodian Pol Pot, Mao was in essence a nihilist destroyer of humankind. His Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution were evidence of his tryst with darkness; he plumbed its depths. The intellectual finery with which he was draped was the illusionist trick familiar to courtiers. Former British Prime Minister Edward Heath and Field Marshal Montgomery admired Mao and his political system. Orientals were best suited to Oriental despotism, they seemed to think. The nudity of the Emperor’s mind and spirit was (and still is) taboo. Otherwise the legitimacy of the regime would suffer. :!: :!: :!:

Mao was much given to dismissing the US as a “paper tiger”, but, as Nikita Khrushchev tauntingly reminded him, the beast possessed nuclear teeth. It does indeed, as the US Seventh Fleet armada, which prowls China’s extensive coastline, demonstates. American naval exercises with its regional allies in the Yellow Sea and the Sea of Japan and the South China Sea have upset Beijing, which has given vent to its displeasure by cancelling military exchanges with Washington, DC. It matters not a jot, say American Admirals, brazenly insisting that they will do what a man has to do, including supplying arms to Taiwan. The Middle Kingdom is losing face. The 21st century is educating its rulers to the paradigm of global power.

Rumours are afloat that the People’s Bank of China Governor Zhou Xiaochuan may have fled the country.The grist to these mills were reports from Hong Kong citing Ming Pao, a local news agency which has claimed that because of an approximate loss of $430 billion on US Treasury bonds, the Chinese Government was preparing to punish certain individuals within the PCB, including Mr Zhou. His name has been blocked from Internet search engines within China. He may well join the Falun Gong and the ‘splittist’ Dalai Lama in Beijing’s rogues’ gallery.

Having acquired military and industrial clout, Beijing believes it to be in the national interest to flaunt this before recalcitrants unwilling to perform the primordial kowtow. Ho Chi Minh, the founding father of Vietnam, desperate for an accord with his country’s French overlords in the aftermath of World War II, pleaded with his youthful colleagues to accept this as a temporary expedient: “Better to deal with France than sniff Chinese dung all one’s life,” he said.

‘Contest of the century: China v India’ is the somewhat fanciful title of a recent Economist editorial. China has most to fear from its inner demons. Consider this: Beijing’s sole genuine allies are North Korea and Pakistan, which, understandably, deepens Middle Kingdom angst. North Korea exists in the shadows, Pakistan in the glare of critical media publicity. The Beijing-Islamabad axis is Fagin breathing life into the artless Dodger. The black comedy should be enjoyed, not pilloried.
Wow does he rip into the the PRC dragon image and shows it to be all smoke and light pretending to be fire.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Looks like we are seeing some leadership change in PRC with Hu being taken over by PLA in a soft coup
Zaobao, Singapore
http://watchingamerica.com/News/66961/w ... emier-wen/
Behind the American Media’s
Praise of Chinese Premier Wen

By Qi Xiniao
Translated By Matthew Hunter
27 August 2010
Edited by Alex Brewer
Singapore - Zaobao - Original Article (Chinese)

30 years ago, no one would have guessed that there would come a day when China’s total economic output would surpass that of Japan. The Japanese economy took off after the World War II and on reaching its peak in the 1980’s, constituted a Pearl Harbour-esque threat to the U.S. economy. Although economic growth stalled somewhat in the 1990’s, Japan remained one of the idols that China’s economy bowed down before.

Even today, many Chinese who have visited Japan express admiration for the precision of its management style. The operations style of the Japanese business world is even more of a model for mainland businesses. The creators of the Chinese financial market modeled it around the operation style of its Japanese counterpart.

It is precisely because China once looked up to the Japanese economic miracle that rumors of China’s economic output surpassing Japan’s have been met with widespread disbelief; even Chinese officials are taking a cautious attitude, and some are going as far as to consider such talk as an attempt by the West to provide China with the kind of pride that comes before a fall.

However, solid economic data shows otherwise. While Chinese per capita GDP and per capita income may still be well behind Japan’s, its total economic output has indeed surpassed that of Japan. For the person on the street, the figures are more pertinent still; these total economic output figures are significant for national strength since they indicate that the state’s tax base is expanding, allowing greater expenditure to improve education and military strength.

And yet, China’s total economic output having “surpassed the Japanese miracle” has a lot to do with the efforts of the current Chinese government. This is what lies behind the American media’s praise of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao.

According to media reports:
When America’s Newsweek recently selected ten widely respected world financial leaders, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao won praise as the leader most in tune with the plight of the people. Newsweek noted that he is called “Grandpa Wen” by the Chinese people, and is well known for his concern for the people; during the earthquake at Wenchuan two years ago, he wept, deeply pained, as he inspected the disaster area; during this month’s landslides at Zhouqu, in Gansu province, he again lent encouragement to those trapped by the disaster.

Newsweek is a highly influential media outlet in the U.S., and so for Newsweek to list Premier Wen as one of ten widely respected national leaders, and then to praise him as the most empathetic among them constitutes high commendation and generous praise.

This is not the first time the American media has praised Premier Wen. But this time, Newsweek’s praise embodies its recognition of the miracle of Chinese economic development.

Moreover, the American media’s praise of Wen has attracted the gaze of the Chinese people and sparked heated debate, and has increased the standing of the media in the Chinese public consciousness, laying the strategic foundations for an entry into the Chinese market in the distant future.

In addition, at a time when frequent joint U.S.-South Korean military exercises on the Korean Peninsula are taking place, American aircraft carriers are visiting Vietnam and interfering in the South China Sea dispute, and America planning to carry out joint military exercises in the waters off the Senkaku Islands and other such incidents are putting more strain on Sino-American relations than ever before, the decision by an important American media outlet to publish lists and articles in praise of Wen reveals a hidden agenda: to smooth Sino-American relations with a show of goodwill, and of course, to require China to assume greater international responsibility.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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People’s Bank of China Governor Zhou Xiaochuan

Who is he closer to Hu or Wen?
svinayak
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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ramana wrote:People’s Bank of China Governor Zhou Xiaochuan

Who is he closer to Hu or Wen?
Hu is supposed to be closer to all military things and Wen is for all economic and social sector
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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http://watchingamerica.com/News/66793/c ... -hegemony/
Global Times, China
Caution: America Relieves Debt by Hegemony
By Pang Zhongying
Translated By Qu Xiao
30 August 2010
Edited by Sam Carter

America’s military budget is much greater than any other major country in the world. America has set up about 1,000 (some say 800) military bases around the world and made military alliances to build its global network. However, the long battle line has become the fear of many American strategists, such as Brzezinski, that America may be the first and also the last “global superpower.” The U.S. military is a war machine in a real sense. Hardly is an American president elected when his constituents begin to wonder what his war will be. Kosovo and Serbia were Clinton’s picks, and George W. Bush took care of Afghanistan and Iraq. Now, Americans may be wondering whether Obama will take Iran, North Korea or start a cold war with China.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Karan Dixit »

I think it is better for US to concentrate its energies on China aka cold war with China. Iran and North Korea do no pose any where near as much threat as China. Plus we all know that Chinese are important which is not the case with Iran and North Korea. :)
ramana
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ramana »

X-Post..
Hari Seldon wrote:Pakistan: China’s other North Korea

By Shri K Subramanyam.
One thing is PRC doing all this with the US just sitting by idly? It just boggles the miind that all the folks that PRC supplies are also US clients at one time or the other!
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by csharma »

KS article is insightful and original. China is playing a much bigger game with these PoK moves. This affects not only India but also US. India will have to militarize and militarize fast like Gen Jacob was saying.

US and others will also make counter moves. A key takeaway from KS article is that he expects PA to break away from US and run totally into China's lap.

As a rising power India should try to tackle the situation on its own. It should collaborate with the US without getting used to its own detriment.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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csharma wrote: India will have to militarize and militarize fast like Gen Jacob was saying.

As a rising power India should try to tackle the situation on its own. It should collaborate with the US without getting used to its own detriment.
All this needs leadership at the top
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:
One thing is PRC doing all this with the US just sitting by idly? It just boggles the miind that all the folks that PRC supplies are also US clients at one time or the other!
US can take care of this anytime. They have allowed it in Asia since it gives them the reason to stay in Asia.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Ameet wrote:Beijing's Audacity And India’s Policies

http://www.eurasiareview.com/2010090175 ... icies.html

The main question is how will India deal with the military diplomacy face off hence forth. There are signs that China is trying to make it a non-issue in its usual deceptive manner. The Chinese, habituated with India’s lukewarm reaction or non-action in the past, may have miscalculated New Delhi’s response to the refusal of visa to Lt.Gen. Jaswal.


At the same time, it appears the Indian establishment did not want to blow up the incident. There has been little comment from the establishment, and Defence Minister A. K. Antony’s brief observation to television channels suggests they are going to sweep the issue as usual under the carpet. It is India’s free media which is increasingly playing the real role of the fourth estate, that has brought the issue to public notice. If the Indian government tries to brush aside this incident, then not only the government but also the people, would have to pay dearly for this omission.

Questions have been raised in the Indian media about why Lt.Gen. Jaswal, when he was the Corps Commander in charge of Arunachal Pradesh, was given a visa by the Chinese, and why Army Chief V.K.Singh as Eastern Command Chief was also accorded similar courtesy.

The answer rests in the international and domestic situation China was facing at that time, and weak Indian response to China giving stapled visas to Indians from J&K. China first tests the ground. The other parameters assess foreign pressures, the need to seek friends or supporters, and internal issues.

The Lt. Gen. Jaswal case is intrinsic to the party’s and PLA’s shifting position on Pakistan and India.

The crux of this Chinese move is much larger. It is a Pak-China strategy to convert the Kashmir issue into a India-Pak-China issue.

Another critical aspect is the PLA’s power and influence in shaping foreign policy. Today, the party-PLA relations are not the same as it used be in the pre-1988 period.


It is time to face some questions squarely. The Indian establishment including the army, demoralized by the 1962 reverses and the more recent Chinese economic and military development surge, appears to have adopted a defeatist complex, contrary to the assessment of independent Indian experts and analysts. Of course, some independent China experts who receive regular invitations from China and enjoy their hospitality, try to devise reasons on behalf of Beijing’s policies. Otherwise, those invitations will dry up.

Chinese military strategists who provide inputs for the PLA's strategic and tactical plans do not think that the 1962 situation entails today. Apart from their advantage in strategic nuclear warfare, they do not see that the PLA as a whole holds any significant advantage over the Indian forces. In fact, in some ways, they recognize certain drawbacks.

In 1993, two PLA Colonels wrote a book “The Next India-China War II, in which they stated that the next war will be three-dimensional-land, air and sea. Thereafter, China started building infrastructure along the border with India at a hectic pace.

Finally, when it was decided to place two Divisions in Arunachal Pradesh along with SU-29 fighters, and preparation for a strike corps, the Chinese criticism engineered a doubt in parts of the establishment. Thankfully, there has been no retraction of this policy of deployment.

The current mantra is the $60 billion trade with China, co-operation in climate change, co-operation in international fora like WTO and the G-8, and the old 1992 understanding to counter the West on human rights charges. A close look at each will classify that it is China that is the beneficiary, not India. In the area of trade China benefits from iron are imports, and pushing substandard goods into India. In climate change, there is no comparison with China being the second highest polluter in the world, with India way behind. On human rights issues China’s excesses with the law being dictated by the party does not compare with India’s legal system that the charged is innocent unless proved guilty.
One important thing that you have forgotten to mention in this article is the following
Prime Minister A.B. Vajpayee made a major mistake by agreeing in writing that Tibet Autonomous Region was an integral part of China. The expected Chinese reciprocal position on Sikkim as a sovereign state of India, never came.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Christopher Sidor wrote:
One important thing that you have forgotten to mention in this article is the following
Prime Minister A.B. Vajpayee made a major mistake by agreeing in writing that Tibet Autonomous Region was an integral part of China. The expected Chinese reciprocal position on Sikkim as a sovereign state of India, never came.
India should be able to retract back since it is a bargain on both end.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

self delete.
Last edited by Manishw on 03 Sep 2010 19:22, edited 1 time in total.
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