Managing Pakistan's failure

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shiv
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

Thanks Arun

I am also looking at what Pakistan imports, which is a benchmark of what it does or deos not produce in sufficient quantities pindignously. The imports show where the exporters are making money from Pakistan and why they might want the business to continue.

Exports from UK to Pakistan
http://www.ukti.gov.uk/export/countries ... iness.html
  • Principal UK exports are:

    * Specialised industrial machinery
    * Power generation equipment
    * Pharmaceutical and medical products

    There has also been considerable growth and investment in the following sectors:

    * Automotive
    * Telecommunications
    * Information Technology
    * Oil and Gas
    * Food and Beverage
    * Financial Services
    * Infrastructure Development and Engineering Consultancy
    * Education and Training
    * Power Generation
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/en ... istan.html
German
Pakistan’s principal exports to Germany are leather goods and textiles; also important are medical instruments and Basmati rice. Pakistan’s main imports from Germany are chemical products, machinery, electrical goods, vehicles and hardware. I
European Union
The imports from the EU to Pakistan mainly comprise finished products like mechanical and electrical machinery, which accounts for over 35%, followed by chemical and pharmaceuticals for 10% of the total EU imports to Pakistan.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

A_Gupta wrote:But though it is improbable, it is possible that Pakistan can enter a virtuous cycle of economic growth when reconstructing.
....
Also, loss of a road route from Karachi into Afghanistan will hit the US war efforts in Afghanistan - I suppose the Americans are keeping a close tab on the damage to roads and bridges.
One would have to observe, where the development takes place.

If the development and reconstruction takes place in a systemic way only in the big towns and cities or only in those parts of towns and cities where the richer classes live, and only the main roads from Karachi to Afghanistan are repaired for NATO supplies, then we know where it is all going.

However if there is a general upswing in repair and reconstruction of all sorts of infrastructure in smaller towns as well, in factories, in utilities, in rural road network, in hospitals, etc. then we can speak of a virtuous cycle of economic growth. Then the money is being distributed.

It would also be interesting to see, what kind of aid arrives in Pakistan - if it is the usual relief supplies, tents, stoves, medicines, etc. or if there is cash also pouring in.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Lalmohan »

if the road networks and particularly mountain bridges are down or damaged, quite apart from the TSPA, Unkil's supply chain will be at threat - marauding hungry abduls will be throwing themselves at any truck likely to be carrying food and I doubt TSPA can guarantee any safety of movement. Unkil will be reconfiguring it like mad right now, which may lead to that permanent shift to the central asian route. could be an interesting unintended consequence
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by SSridhar »

Shiv, one measurement used in the literature to compare 'coercive powers' of countries is to compute their CINC (Composite Index of National Capability) which is based on a country's population, military, energy & steel production.

For scientific & industrial prowess, the number of patents applied for is one measure, among many others.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhischekcc »

The regime in pakistan is completely green, with a double coat of yellow paint.
What is happening now is that one by one, the duties of the state are being abdicated to jehadi groups - the current flood relief operations are a stark reminder of that. However, the process itself is much older, and had started overtly in Zia's time. It an be argued that when he took Islam as the source of legitimacy for his regime, he effectively disbanded the modern state, which looks to the people as the source of legitimacy.

After that, the pakistani system is simply following the inevitable logic of increasing Islamization. Then paki army handed over the business of waging wars to the jehadi groups, which had the final culmination in the Kargil disaster. One of the reason we have seen pakistan engineering increasingly violent bomb blasts in India since kargil, is because earlier paki policy of using jehadis to promote open warfare against India proved to be a complete failure in Kargil. The violence of these bomb blasts is symptomatic of the frustration that paki army feels in being unable to shift India's position militarily.

Previous to Zia, the pakistanis did attack India using conventional means. IOW, they had NOT abdicated war duties to the jehadis.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pratyush »

Rajesh & others, Regarding the distribution of Aid, even if there is an upswing of construction to repair the damage caused to the infrastructure. The development will not be sustainable because the economy will not have developed to the point of sustaining it self through the flow of goods and services.

i.e once the reconstruction is over, then what?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ return to medieval era, which will herald in more sharia... so the pol pot style year zero option
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pratyush »

abhischekcc wrote:The regime in pakistan is completely green,

SNIP.............

Previous to Zia, the pakistanis did attack India using conventional means. IOW, they had NOT abdicated war duties to the jehadis.

Have to disagee with most if not all of your post. The regime of TSP has always relied on lashkars to wage war, whether it was 47, 65 of 99. Only the 71 war can be said to be free from their involvement in the western theater.

In that sence Pakistan was never really a modern nation state. So it faliure should also not be judged using the paramiters for modern states.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pratyush »

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ return to medieval era, which will herald in more sharia... so the pol pot style year zero option

I was horrified when I had learn t about what Pol pot had inflicted on Cambodia. But with the Pakis they are for some stupid reason actually asking for a year Zero. No one can escape their Karma.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Lalmohan »

talibs are not too dissimilar to khmer rouge in their own way
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pratyush »

Very true, and that's what I fear about that population at my core. Yet they are not doing any thing to stop this madness. Always blaiming some one else for all the problems they are facing. But never have they actually taken responsibilty to stand up and be counted as a nation which can actually solve its problems.

Always look to hurt our nation. You dig a hole for others you will fall it it your self. This is the ancient wisdom of this country but they have abandoned it, in their quest to be non Indian.

What ever they get is what they desreve.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhischekcc »

Pratyush, it is a matter of perspective.

If we extend your line of thought, we will end up with the conclusion that muslims can only be hard core Islamic, and that means jehadi.
This is both incorrect and misleading to the current discussion.

Beginning in the mid 19th century (after the 1857 war), the muslim world has been in a internal turmoil as to how to handle western style modernism. But all that came to nought when USA raised this army of cut-throats to fight the USSR. Now, the choice the muslim world faces is between jihadi-ism and destruction of Islamic values and society. For the record, I want to say that these choices are not the only ones. It is being imposed upon the muslim world by the Christian west. -- This is the historical perspective which shaped Pakistan's environment.

What about their decisions?
Their decisions have been a reflection of their confidence in their conventional forces. In 1948, 80' and 90's, they did not have the same confidence as in 1950's and 60s.

Do not judge their level of jehadi-fication by whether they have used irregulars to attack India or not - wrong scale to measure with.
Instead, see how many of their civilian institutions have been taken over by jehadis.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

This link has some technical detail:
Industrial means required to build nuclear weapons. I have been more interested in the non-fissile issues apart from acquisition of U 235 or Pu which we know Pakistan has.

http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mctl98-2/p2sec05.pdf

Also:
http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/produce.htm
In most cases, the technologies, the equipment, and the know-how required for the production of equipment used to manufacture nuclear weapons are dual-use and affect civilian applications where, for example, considerations of costs, flexibility, and competitiveness have become major concerns. A number of different technologies associated with a modern industrial base include many types of machine tools and processing equipment, certain inspection equipment, and certain robots.

Machine tools include NC (numerically controlled) machines in which the motions of the various axes are simultaneously and continually coordinated, thereby maintaining a predetermined (programmed) path. This includes turning, milling, and grinding machines and electrical discharge machines (EDM). Advanced manufacturing technique equipment includes spin, flow, and shear forming machines; filament-winding machines; hot isostatic presses; high-temperature furnaces and heaters; equipment for the manufacture of centrifuge rotors; vibration/shaker systems; and flash x-ray systems. It is often suggested that all or even most of these manufacturing and mensuration systems are required to build weapons of mass destruction in general and nuclear weapons in particular.

Manufacturing technologies are fundamental to the national industrial base. As much as any other technology, they are vital for the manufacture of military and civil hardware, and they either enable the manufacture of vital military systems or are essential for the design and manufacture of future military systems. Without some level of manufacturing equipment capability, it would be impossible to produce the military systems used by the world's military forces. Many commercial technologies are far more advanced than those available to the first several nuclear weapon states when they built their first nuclear and thermonuclear weapons, weapons generally considered quite satisfactory for their avowed purposes of deterrence and warfighting.

Modern weapon systems require a variety of processing equipment to manufacture necessary components. For example, machine tools or precision casting are used in the machining of hemi-shells for nuclear weapons; spin, flow, and shear forming machines are required for the fabrication of thin-walled, long, concentric hollow bodies, such as rotors for centrifuge devices used in uranium enrichment. Superplastic forming/diffusion bonding equipment is used for the fabrication of sheet metal structures of advanced alloys (e.g., titanium, nickel, and aluminum), in which reliability and cost are important factors, and high-temperature furnaces are used for casting uranium and plutonium, both key weapons materials.

Metrology covers technologies for dimensional measuring systems and equipment needed for precise determination of the dimensions of manufactured parts, machine tools, and inspection machines. Included are systems for in-process measurement, as well as post-manufacture inspection. This technology area is of paramount importance for the construction of systems incorporating mechanical or electrical com-ponents built to exacting tolerances, whether such hardware is military or civil. It is highly dependent on sensors, positioners, feedback systems, digital computers, and associated components and hardware. Included in the list of metrology equipment are coordinate, linear, and angular measurement machines using laser, standard light, and noncontact techniques. The tolerances of parts measured range from '1 nm (corresponding to an optical surface finish prepared by diamond turning with ion beam polishing) to '10 mm (corresponding to more traditional metal machining).

Modern precision manufacturing depends upon being able to make a large number of dimensional measurements precisely and accurately, and to know that measurements made at each site can be referred to a set of secondary standards which can, if necessary, be calibrated against the international standards. A centimeter measured in one laboratory must be the same as a centimeter measured with different equipment at another laboratory, and that equality must be demonstrable quickly and economically. In many ways, technological progress has been demarcated by our ability to make precision, standard measurements and to transfer this ability from the laboratory to the production floor. This is the science of metrology. Accurate dimensional inspection is essential for the design, development, manufac-ture, and use of a wide range of military hardware. Dimensional inspection machines are used for the measurement of centrifuge and nuclear weapons parts; linear inspection machines are used for the measurement of bearing races or shafts (used in advanced machine tools), centrifuges, and nuclear weapons parts. Specialized measuring equipment is critical for measuring hemi-shells.
I am interested in knowing how long a dysfunctional state with disrupted transport, militancy and lack of power and perhaps civil unrest can continue with all this.

Currently teh army in Pakisan seems to have the infrastructure and control and funds to do all this. I am a little c doubtful about some of teh materials and engineering tech - but China has helped.

That is why I would love to see a nuclear bomb in the hands of Uighurs - even if India has to supply them with one and blame it on Pakistan.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Hari Seldon »

That is why I would love to see a nuclear bomb in the hands of Uighurs - even if India has to supply them with one and blame it on Pakistan.
Bl00dy wow. Ding Ding Ding Ding....Let's hope no paan chewing babu somewhere in north block is reading this, might get wrong ideas maybe....only.... who knows....
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by rohitvats »

Gentlemen, was just wondering something - can these floods bring to fore the hollowness that the TSP establishment is?

We've debating the managing of TSP failure - question is, is the failure already on our footsteps? Can this flood be the catalyst to expose everything the State of Pakistan is and IS NOT? What contours are likely to emerge from here? There is and will be anger in the mango abdul. How will this be channeled?

(a) The abdul goes completely ape-sh*t at the admin and we've a change of regime. TSPA will most likely work in shadow and allow for more 'marketable' team to come in. Status quo as far as we're concerned.

(b) Case (a) but large part of the country falls into lawless ness. Again, not an issue - core - Punjab is OK and so is TSPA. GoPk looses control over still larger area. But as I said some where else, center of gravity is doing OK.

(c) Case (b) but more and more abduls in Punjabi-Taliban fold and TSPA forced to cut more deals with them. If you imagine TSPA and Talibunnies on opposite of see-saw, the weight of Talibunnies increases and swings the position in their favor.

IMO, the point c (itself combination of a and b) is going to increase the inevitable shift in TSP society. The end point is that much nearer. Large number of people on empty stomach and millions of firearms is a dangerous situation and with Izzlaam thrown into it - it becomes a real problem.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

Rohit, Its a distinct possibility. TSPA had geared itself for a Ghazawa Hind but is getting booged down with floods :lol: and other civilian relief assignments for which its not geared to. And is exposing its short comings by way of pictures*. I think that will shake the kabila residents as to the guars ability.

* Eg. picture of a single filled water bottle being thrown at a boat occupant surrounded by water with the trajectory clearly missing the mark. If this isnt a sign of desperation then what is it?

Meanwhile GP write in Pioneer. Even thoguh headline is about Obama its about TSP failure....
EDITS | Thursday, August 19, 2010 |


Obama loses his sheen

G Parthasarathy

With the US economy floundering and the war in Afghanistan heading nowhere, Americans are despairing of their President

Meeting American officials, academics, journalists and analysts in Washington, DC and elsewhere, as this writer did last week, gave interesting insights into thinking on their domestic and international perceptions, as the US faces up to the reality of an emerging multipolar world. With continuing near double-digit unemployment, the US is now paying the price for living beyond its means. President Barack Obama’s popularity has plummeted substantially.

Mr Obama’s pet foreign policy projects like action on climate change and implementing a Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty with Russia are in the doldrums, with the US Senate refusing to ratify international commitments he has made. Grandiose plans the Obama Administra- tion had to fashion a new world order based on a virtual Sino-American condominium lie in tatters, with a militarily assertive China challenging American maritime power in the South China Sea and the Yellow Sea, while threatening the use of force to enforce maritime claims on Vietnam, Japan and the Philippines.

There is now virtual unanimity that the ruling Democratic Party is going to face reverses in Congressional elections scheduled for November this year. Many Americans, however, believe that as some of Mr Obama’s bold measures like health care reform and readiness to reform the country’s financial sector are success stories, factors like relations with China or Russia alone cannot decisively affect his re-election in 2012. But, the real challenge that Mr Obama faces is steering through the minefield that the US now finds itself in Afghanistan. A vociferous section of the public, media and politicians is now demanding a speedy withdrawal from Afghanistan, amidst rising casualties in America’s longest war on foreign soil — 1,221 American soldiers have been killed in operations in Afghanistan since 2001.

Casualties have climbed steeply in recent years from double digits till 2005, to 521 soldiers killed in 2009 and 423 soldiers killed in the first seven months of this year. Costs of the war in Afghanistan are also steadily escalating. The Appropriations Committee of the US Congress approved a Supplementary Budget of $ 33 billion for the current financial year, for the additional 30,000 US troops recently deployed in Afghanistan. This exceeds the annual budget for India’s entire armed forces. The Americans are now spending an estimated $ 84 billion annually for their military presence in Afghanistan, at a time when their Budget deficit is rising.

Apart from American spending in Afghanistan, the American taxpayer has provided $ 18 billion in military and economic assistance to Pakistan. Military assistance approved for Pakistan thus far amounts to around $ 13 billion. The bulk of this money has gone towards purchasing Chinese military equipment ranging from fighter aircraft to tanks and frigates, apart from American F-16 fighters, air-to-air missiles and naval equipment — all of little use in fighting the jihadis operating from within Pakistan. The WikiLeaks revelations are only the tip of the proverbial iceberg on how Pakistan has milked, misled and double-crossed the US, primarily using American naiveté and gullibility to secure military assistance even as the ISI continues to arm, train, equip and harbour the Taliban and other terrorists who kill American soldiers in Afghanistan.

The American strategy of praise and respect for Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani in the hope that he can be sweet-talked into ending support for and taking on jihadi groups, including the Taliban, which have for years been nurtured by the ISI, is destined to fail. A hard-boiled Jhelum-born Kayani, who comes from the heartland of groups like the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, is hardly going to let American flattery and solicitude end his support for ‘assets’ he has nurtured for years.

All this leaves Mr Obama facing a difficult dilemma. Growing American casualties in Afghanistan as a result of counter-insurgency operations will cast a shadow on his re-election in 2012. But, being seen to cut losses and run from Afghanistan will invite ridicule, both domestically and internationally. The only way out in these circumstances for Mr Obama would be to move towards visible reduction of American forces in Afghanistan, together with moves to reduce casualties by disengaging from active counter-insurgency operations, particularly in southern Afghanistan, by November 2012. It does, however, appear that the Americans will retain a reduced troop presence and air power in Afghanistan beyond 2012 to back up and train an ill-equipped, poorly motivated and inadequately trained Afghan National Army.

India has to be prepared for a situation when ISI-backed Taliban groups will gain increasing control over southern Afghanistan. How will this play out in the rest of Afghanistan, a country where around 56 per cent of the population is made up of non-Pashtuns who would find any return of the country to Taliban rule totally unacceptable? Under Pakistani pressure, Afghan President Hamid Karzai has recently sacked or sidelined the two most influential non-Pashtun officials in his Government — intelligence chief Amrullah Saleh and Army chief Gen Bismillah Khan.

Criticising Mr Karzai’s efforts for ‘reconciliation’ with the Taliban through the good offices of the ISI, Mr Saleh asserted, “The ISI is part of the landscape of destruction in this country. So, it will be a waste of time to provide evidence of ISI involvement. They are part of it.” More ominously, Mr Saleh alleged that Mr Karzai’s attempts for ‘reconciliation’ with the Taliban were “a fatal mistake and a recipe for civil war”.

If the Taliban, with ISI backing, establish a strong presence in southern Afghanistan, non-Pashtun ethnic groups like the Tajiks, Uzbeks and Shia Hazaras, will inevitably seek a loosening of ties with a weakened central authority in Kabul, with a reversion to the situation that prevailed in the mid-1990s. Influential Americans are now advocating that the US has a responsibility in even arming non-Pashtun ethnic groups, who had helped them to oust the Taliban in 2001, to defend themselves against Taliban depredations.

Moreover, a number of Afghan leaders including the presidential election candidates, Mr Latif Pedram and Mr Abdullah Abdullah, and regional leaders like Dostum and Muhaqiq, are now demanding greater regional autonomy. Should the Americans, however, reduce their dependence on Pakistan as their troop levels fall, their ability to deal with safe havens across the Durand Line will be enhanced. This will necessarily require the US to seek closer cooperation with the Russians and Afghanistan’s Central Asia neighbours.

In any case, as Pakistani writer Ahmed Rashid once observed, the stage appears to be set for a “descent into chaos” in our western neighbourhood.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

The following article made a penny drop for me
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/201 ... hould-now/
1. Pakistan’s main spy agency says homegrown Islamist militants have overtaken the Indian army as the greatest threat to national security, a finding with potential ramifications for relations between the two rival South Asian nations and for the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan. A recent internal assessment of security by the Inter-Services Intelligence, Pakistan’s powerful military spy agency, determined that for the first time in 63 years, it expects a majority of threats to come from Islamist militants, according to a senior ISI officer.

2. Much now depends on the ability of the government and its foreign allies to bring relief to flood victims. Tens of thousands of Pakistani troops and virtually the army’s entire helicopter fleet are now involved in the effort. But its resources are way overstretched, and for months to come the army is unlikely to be in a position to even hold the areas along the Afghan border that it has recently won back from the militants, let alone initiate any new campaigns against the Taliban. That means the war in Afghanistan is about to become even more bloody.
First of all, it is quite natural that the relief efforts on the ground will come from Islamists and the army. The Islamists are present in strength all over Pakistan and are organised and on the spot. On the other hand the army has the heavy moving equipment.

So the idiotic articles that we saw saying that "army is competing with Islamists" is rubbish. They work in tandem, as one team. It is the US that is competing for popularity with Pak army+Islamists.

We kept speculating that the Paki army was trying to withdraw from the US's war by provoking war against india. It seems like the floods can be used just like an "Indian invasion excuse" to pull the Pakistani army away from the US's war on terror. This of course is a ploy to get more aid.

From the viewpoint of the Pakistan army - there will be some serious reconstruction work to do. The strategic bridges and infrastructure will be repaired first, followed by the RAPE infrastructure (like Swat golf course I guess). Much depends on how the US responds and how panicky the US becomes. If the US panics and pours in money - it will be back to same-ol, same-ol. If the US does not pour in money then we are likely to see some interesting readjustments.

My guess? The US will announce a 1 billion dollar flood package for Pakistan.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by A_Gupta »

The strategic bridges and infrastructure will be repaired first, followed by the RAPE infrastructure (like Swat golf course I guess).

Shiv, the flood plains of great rivers are rarely inhabited by the wealthy. I doubt that they would build their golf courses there either.

PS: My guess is that some money in the Kerry-Lugar bill will be accelerated. My guess is that there is little political will in the US to increase the budget deficit.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

A_Gupta wrote:
Shiv, the flood plains of great rivers are rarely inhabited by the wealthy. I doubt that they would build their golf courses there either.
Everywhere except Swat which is RAPE playground

Check some of the neighborhoods that are flooded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyv1NoPl28E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPdxEU75UYk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwft65LEKgw
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pulikeshi »

Apart from American spending in Afghanistan, the American taxpayer has provided $ 18 billion in military and economic assistance to Pakistan. Military assistance approved for Pakistan thus far amounts to around $ 13 billion.
At what price point is support and assistance untenable?
Has the recent floods shown that the point has been reached?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by svinayak »

Pulikeshi wrote:
Apart from American spending in Afghanistan, the American taxpayer has provided $ 18 billion in military and economic assistance to Pakistan. Military assistance approved for Pakistan thus far amounts to around $ 13 billion.
At what price point is support and assistance untenable?
Has the recent floods shown that the point has been reached?
Can somebody calculate the net present value of all these monies to Pakistan
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhischekcc »

What's the hurdle rate :)
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhischekcc »

One thing that ids not being given sufficient importance is the ability of these floods to break pakistan.

Large moth eaten empires have rarely proven the ability to withstand the shock of a natural disaster. Case in point, the Armenian earthquake which brought down the USSR.

The current god sent disaster is bringing all of pakistans weaknesses to the forefront at the same time. No matter how much money US pours into that black hole, the institutional rot in that country will only ensure state failure - the question is how much time it will take.

Collapse is certainly a strong possibility. We have debated the collapse of pakistan for so long, and now that it stares us in the face, we have trouble recognizing the fact. Cognitive disonance, I suppose :)

By early next year, I expect all our problems from that direction to have been solved or drastically reduced or drastically enhanced :mrgreen:
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Lalmohan »

abhischekcc wrote:What's the hurdle rate :)
use long term US treasuries rate... afterall thats where its funded from
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Fund for Peace: Failed State Index is based on the following 12 Indicators
Social Indicators
  • I-1. Mounting Demographic Pressures
  • I-2. Massive Movement of Refugees or Internally Displaced Persons creating Complex Humanitarian Emergencies
  • I-3. Legacy of Vengeance-Seeking Group Grievance or Group Paranoia
  • I-4. Chronic and Sustained Human Flight
Economic Indicators
  • I-5. Uneven Economic Development along Group Lines
  • I-6. Sharp and/or Severe Economic Decline
Political Indicators
  • I-7. Criminalization and/or Delegitimization of the State
  • I-8. Progressive Deterioration of Public Services
  • I-9. Suspension or Arbitrary Application of the Rule of Law and Widespread Violation of Human Rights
  • I-10. Security Apparatus Operates as a "State Within a State"
  • I-11. Rise of Factionalized Elites
  • I-12. Intervention of Other States or External Political Actors
I-1. Mounting Demographic Pressures
  • Pressures deriving from high population density relative to food supply and other life-sustaining resources
  • Pressures deriving from group settlement patterns that affect the freedom to participate in common forms of human and physical activity, including economic productivity, travel, social interaction, religious worship
  • Pressures deriving from group settlement patterns and physical settings, including border disputes, ownership or occupancy of land, access to transportation outlets, control of religious or historical sites, and proximity to environmental hazards
  • Pressures from skewed population distributions, such as a "youth or age bulge," or from divergent rates of population growth among competing communal groups
I-2. Massive Movement of Refugees or Internally Displaced Persons creating Complex Humanitarian Emergencies
  • Forced uprooting of large communities as a result of random or targeted violence and/or repression, causing food shortages, disease, lack of clean water, land competition, and turmoil that can spiral into larger humanitarian and security problems, both within and between countries
I-3. Legacy of Vengeance-Seeking Group Grievance or Group Paranoia
  • History of aggrieved communal groups based on recent or past injustices, which could date back centuries
  • Patterns of atrocities committed with impunity against communal groups
  • Specific groups singled out by state authorities, or by dominant groups, for persecution or repression
    Institutionalized political exclusion
  • Public scapegoating of groups believed to have acquired wealth, status or power as evidenced in the emergence of "hate" radio, pamphleteering and stereotypical or nationalistic political rhetoric
I-4. Chronic and Sustained Human Flight
  • "Brain drain" of professionals, intellectuals and political dissidents fearing persecution or repression
  • Voluntary emigration of "the middle class," particularly economically productive segments of the population, such as entrepreneurs, business people, artisans and traders, due to economic deterioration
  • Growth of exile communities
I-5. Uneven Economic Development along Group Lines
  • Group-based inequality, or perceived inequality, in education, jobs, and economic status
  • Group-based impoverishment as measured by poverty levels, infant mortality rates, education levels
  • Rise of communal nationalism based on real or perceived group inequalities
I-6. Sharp and/or Severe Economic Decline
  • A pattern of progressive economic decline of the society as a whole as measured by per capita income, GNP, debt, child mortality rates, poverty levels, business failures, and other economic measures
  • Sudden drop in commodity prices, trade revenue, foreign investment or debt payments
  • Collapse or devaluation of the national currency
  • Extreme social hardship imposed by economic austerity programs
  • Growth of hidden economies, including the drug trade, smuggling, and capital flight
  • Increase in levels of corruption and illicit transactions among the general populace
  • Failure of the state to pay salaries of government employees and armed forces or to meet other financial obligations to its citizens, such as pension payments
I-7. Criminalization and/or Delegitimization of the State
  • Massive and endemic corruption or profiteering by ruling elites
  • Resistance of ruling elites to transparency, accountability and political representation
  • Widespread loss of popular confidence in state institutions and processes, e.g., widely boycotted or contested elections, mass public demonstrations, sustained civil disobedience, inability of the state to collect taxes, resistance to military conscription, rise of armed insurgencies
  • Growth of crime syndicates linked to ruling elites
I-8. Progressive Deterioration of Public Services
  • Disappearance of basic state functions that serve the people, including failure to protect citizens from terrorism and violence and to provide essential services, such as health, education, sanitation, public transportation
  • State apparatus narrows to those agencies that serve the ruling elites, such as the security forces, presidential staff, central bank, diplomatic service, customs and collection agencies
I-9. Suspension or Arbitrary Application of the Rule of Law and Widespread Violation of Human Rights
  • Emergence of authoritarian, dictatorial or military rule in which constitutional and democratic institutions and processes are suspended or manipulated
  • Outbreak of politically inspired (as opposed to criminal) violence against innocent civilians
  • Rising number of political prisoners or dissidents who are denied due process consistent with international norms and practices
  • Widespread abuse of legal, political and social rights, including those of individuals, groups or cultural institutions (e.g., harassment of the press, politicization of the judiciary, internal use of military for political ends, public repression of political opponents, religious or cultural persecution)
I-10. Security Apparatus Operates as a "State Within a State"
  • Emergence of elite or praetorian guards that operate with impunity
  • Emergence of state-sponsored or state-supported private militias that terrorize political opponents, suspected "enemies," or civilians seen to be sympathetic to the opposition
  • Emergence of an "army within an army" that serves the interests of the dominant military or political clique
  • Emergence of rival militias, guerilla forces or private armies in an armed struggle or protracted violent campaigns against state security forces
I-11. Rise of Factionalized Elites
  • Fragmentation of ruling elites and state institutions along group lines
  • Use of nationalistic political rhetoric by ruling elites, often in terms of communal irredentism, (e.g., a "greater Serbia") or of communal solidarity (e.g., "ethnic cleansing" or "defending the faith")
I-12. Intervention of Other States or External Political Actors
  • Military or Para-military engagement in the internal affairs of the state at risk by outside armies, states, identity groups or entities that affect the internal balance of power or resolution of the conflict
  • Intervention by donors, especially if there is a tendency towards over-dependence on foreign aid or peacekeeping missions
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

ANALYSIS: Failing...still? by Salman Tarik Kureshi: Daily Times
In terms of corruption of elites, history of military rule, use of nationalistic rhetoric and intervention by external political actors, Pakistan’s rankings are amongst the worst. And, on one score, that of secretive, unaccountable security services, Pakistan’s appalling 9.7 is exceeded only by Somalia
ramana
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

abhischekcc wrote:One thing that ids not being given sufficient importance is the ability of these floods to break pakistan.

Large moth eaten empires have rarely proven the ability to withstand the shock of a natural disaster. Case in point, the Armenian earthquake which brought down the USSR.

The current god sent disaster is bringing all of pakistans weaknesses to the forefront at the same time. No matter how much money US pours into that black hole, the institutional rot in that country will only ensure state failure - the question is how much time it will take.

Collapse is certainly a strong possibility. We have debated the collapse of pakistan for so long, and now that it stares us in the face, we have trouble recognizing the fact. Cognitive disonance, I suppose :)

By early next year, I expect all our problems from that direction to have been solved or drastically reduced or drastically enhanced :mrgreen:
We expect a different and violent collapse. BTW in the TSP thread I have posted quite few times, that India should expect a stream of flood refugees. Most likely in Rajasthan.

I told someone that the expected conflict in a couple of years has been delayed. Shame on us if we don't make use of it to prepare.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pulikeshi »

^ Ramana,

I think you are right about a refugee crisis. Perhaps GOI is already preparing for that.

1. However, if enough common Abdul is fed on India caused flood nonsense -
would the said common Abdul decide to walk into India?
Perhaps this is why Hamid, et. al are RAARW agent :mrgreen:

2. If India thought it had couple of years to enter into a 'manage the shit'
situation, perhaps the floods accelerate that eventuality. Not sure if GOI is prepared.
So, I suspect the flip in terms of lesser time than planned for GOI.
Haresh
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Haresh »

Why have Pakistan and India evolved so differently?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/08/why-h ... l#comments
ramana
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

Another op-ed from Premen Addy in Pioneer predicting the TSP failure
Pakistan on the brink

Premen Addy

Carpetbaggers, bounty-hunters, Generals and assorted jihadis have nothing to offer beyond rivers of blood and tears

Disasters, natural or man-made, can remake or break societies. The Great Plague of London, in the last quarter of the 17th century, was followed by the Great Fire: A city laid low by an unprecedented epidemic was purged by fire and reborn. England, trapped in the maelstrom of the War of Spanish Succession, emerged in 1713 with the Treaty of Utrecht. London replaced Amsterdam as Europe’s financial centre, with the English ascendancy cast in stone for the next two centuries and more, until it started to crumble at the end of the Second World War.

Will the fortunes of flood-stricken Pakistan follow a similar trajectory? I fear not. England rose on the back of an emergent and dynamic bourgeoisie. Carpetbaggers and bounty-hunters, headed by President Asif Ali Zardari, thrusting Generals battening on the aphrodisiac of power, assorted jihadi fraternities, buttressed by a freemasonry of suicide bombers, have nothing to offer beleaguered Pakistan beyond rivers of blood and tears and the sweat of unremitting and fruitless toil, which was the lot of the cursed Sisyphus.

Mr Michael Kugelman, an associate at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, a US think-tank, speaks of a Pakistani political class sired by land- owning dynasties with scant interest in reform and lacking incentive to adopt policies attuned to contemporary needs. “The vested interests are the single biggest obstacle to moving forward in a sustainable and long-term way. It’s not just the water problems, but also food insecurity, agricultural problems and also the energy crisis.”

On a central reservation linking Peshawar to Lahore sprouts a tented village, where one marooned farmer, Ata Gul Jan, told a local reporter: “The rain came from heaven and our fate lies in heaven. Nobody can save us but god.”

There have been reams of print on why the global response to the Pakistani disaster has been so ‘pitiful’. Lack of adequate marketing, responded a wise Briton with long experience of such matters as an international civil servant. The global community hadn’t awoken to the scale the calamity, he explained. Scarcely believable, this, what with radio, television and mobile phones reaching into every corner of Planet Earth.

The Asian tsunami of 2005 and the recent Haitian earthquake had galvanised the international community. Why not then Pakistan’s rampaging rivers, you may well ask. The short answer is donor fatigue. Pakistan is generally perceived as a terrorist hub, whose blighted leaders display not the slightest remorse for the engineered 26/11Mumbai carnage, whose kleptocratic President has earned a reputation once held by the late Congolese leader Joseph Mobutu, where unbridled Islamism holds sway.

The sight of Mr Zardari jetting off for his chateau in northern France, when his people were being consumed by the raging waters, may be one reason why the French Government hasn’t parted with a franc for Pakistan’s flood relief. The US and the UK, in contrast, have been generous to a fault, with little chance of recompense in popular gratitude. It comes, alas, with the territory.

Nor has the Islamic world opened its coffers. According to a Times report, “Analysts blamed Riyadh’s strained relations with President Zardari for the apparent indifference of the oil-rich Saudi Government.” A former Pakistani diplomat was of the view that “King Abdullah has never liked Mr Zardari, for various reasons. One is Mr Zardari’s closeness to the Americans. His being a Shia may also be a factor.”

This beggars belief. Or does it? Consider the nature of the Saudi regime. One would have thought that for all the Saudi monarch’s distaste for Mr Zardari, he would put this aside to alleviate the plight of the Pakistani masses, overwhelmingly Muslim and fervently devout to boot. As for closeness to the Americans, methinks there is none closer than the Saudi royals, one of whose number, Prince Bandar, as his country’s envoy in Washington, DC plotted Saddam Hussain’s downfall with his friends in the Bush Administration. He had access to the White House at all times before and during the Iraq war.

The corona of Anglo-American diplomacy, it would appear, is the bailout and preservation of the Pakistani state as it is, military and jihadi warts and all. Scribes sympathetic to the Cause joined the fray. The respected Lahore-based Ahmed Rashid took up his quill, in The Sunday Telegraph, in a bold endeavour to bend the ears of the British public and those of India’s mandarins. His opening gambit was the scale of Pakistan’s disaster: Its price exceeded the cost of the country’s four wars with India. Fast forward, the West must press India to parley with Islamabad over Kashmir. A bankrupt and destitute Pakistan would not be in India’s interest. Maybe not. But a prosperous and functioning Pakistan brought few fruits to India’s table either.

The Financial Times pressed another Lahore denizen, novelist Mohsin Hamid into service. He was in overdrive. Pakistani democracy and an evolving, ebullient popular culture were going places: Pakistan is far ahead of India in the hunger and child malnutrition stakes. There is terrorist violence, of course; and power glitches condemn most families to a life without lights for a third of the day. Nevertheless, Pakistan would recover within five years from its present travails — which is good to hear.

This was, however, a swelling prologue to the national theme, the circuitous route to Kashmir. The Indian threat to Pakistan was genuine; since Hamid who lives near the border could bear witness to its existence. “Security hawks” in Pakistan and India had muddied the waters. “The world (synonym for the US and the UK) needs to lend a hand, shedding the pretence that no dispute over Kashmir exists — or that its consequences are minor. The truth is that Kashmir is a problem that destabilises a region of 1.5 billion people and makes the planet more unsafe.”

Forlorn appeals to the West is a self-defeating ploy to acquire through negotiation what has proved unachievable on the battlefield. History shows that losers rarely script peace treaties, whether drawn up in Vienna in 1815, following Napoleon’s defeat at Waterloo, or at Versailles in 1919 after Germany’s defeat in the Great War, let alone the more unsparing settlement which signalled the end of World War II.

The lesson is not to start a conflict you’re not certain of winning; or to put it differently, it’s perilous to try one’s luck at a casino without an abundant supply of big bucks. It is better by far to be safe than sorry.
Halfway he loses the theme.
krisna
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by krisna »

It is sobering to recall that such massive movements of people have taken place twice before in our history, viz. in 1947, when Pakistan broke away from India, and in 1971/72, when Bangladesh broke away from Pakistan.
Hope this time there is vivisection of pakistan into its provinces with rump pakjabi and hostile neighbours. :twisted: :evil:
ramana wrote:
abhischekcc wrote:One thing that ids not being given sufficient importance is the ability of these floods to break pakistan.

The current god sent disaster is bringing all of pakistans weaknesses to the forefront at the same time. No matter how much money US pours into that black hole, the institutional rot in that country will only ensure state failure -
We expect a different and violent collapse. BTW in the TSP thread I have posted quite few times, that India should expect a stream of flood refugees. Most likely in Rajasthan.

I told someone that the expected conflict in a couple of years has been delayed. Shame on us if we don't make use of it to prepare.
Sindhu Matha please do your job. :D
Please please prove Ramanaji and Abhishekcc wrong. :cry: with internal displacement of pakis (away from India)
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Guddu »

This quote is from the TSP thread, and seems important....
Licking their chops

Patwaris and land revenue officials in the areas affected by flooding are licking their chops. Why? Because in many areas land boundaries have been so muddied by the raging waters that in many cases the top soil has been dislodged. As the waters begin to recede, rival claims are raising their heads because plots have to be physically marked out anew. This means that patwaris and their like will have a field day fleecing those who’ve already suffered hugely. The media should be vigilant about this new form of exploitation and the government should set up a mechanism to avoid this. Forewarned is forearmed.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Jarita »

^^^^ Whatever happens I don't want those guys at our door... They need to move westwards to the pure lands from where they claim descent.
As an aside, I think Sindhi nadi is really pissed off. Heard a pujari saying that all nadis need aarti regularly.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

Pakistan by and large is a very fertile and "well watered" (Ha ha :D ) land. Especially Pakjab and Sindh. It is amazing to think of how the Sindhu has provided nourishment for all - starting from the best to people worth less than a pool of diarrhea for perhaps 10 millennia.

One of the reasons why Pakistan survives despite all the dire statistics that I like to quote is yet another statistic. Pakistani is a primarily agrarian economy. With a great canal system the farmers do not even need electricity for pumpsets like Indian farmers. So whether the country is Talibanized or not there is enough food for all. Food and water are such basic requirements that the worst state failures are associated with long term lack of these basic necessities. On flood may not cut it.

A political system that has 90% farmers and laborers and a small oligarchy and elite is a system that has existed stably for thousands of years. The interesting part about a religion like Islam is that it never attempted to interfere with this social structure. It only fiddled with definitions and tried to make people happy with what they have by showing allegiance to some other monarch, who was called God and his PM on earth. In Pakistan this is used to tell people to accept what Allah gives, for that is his will. It is an Islamic version of "This is your karma, so accept it" - except that there is no scope for positive action to change your karma. Pakistan is a stable India with a treacherous leadership in a situation that has been modelled in so many ancient Indian epics. But I digress.

Pakistan's stability is its agrarian economy and fertile soil. You can bomb Pakistan back to the stone ages, but at its core, it is stone age advantages that helps Pakiland survive. But the elite oligarchy (RAPE and army) survive because of the docility of the average Pakistani who actually believes that Allah wishes him to eat crap or grass and will do that because it is Allah's wish. Such a brainwashed population will not revolt against anyone who says he is on Allah's side, but will kill himself fighting anyone else. So Pakistan is a fertile land and with a docile brainwashed population who have enough food and believe that Allah does not wish for them to have much more. How convenient for the RAPE. But such an oligarchy would have been overrun long ago if they had not allied with the foremost military powers -namely the US.

The only things that will bring down the oligarchy/RAPE/army are social revolution and loss of power and influence of the US. For a long time I have said that Pakistan will fall when the US falls. But social revolution - if caused by some magic can also hasten the downfall of the Paki oligarchy/army/RAPE.

The question is what might cause such a social revolution. The Taliban are one such possibility provided the US does not change its course and starts paying the Taliban protection money that it is now paying the Paki army.

Can the floods cause such a social revolution? That remains to be seen. The hunger and suffering will be temporary. The loss of income will be significant but temporary, and will be covered by donors. The floods will definitely help Pakistan move down one notch but whether it will collapse is something I cannot predict. A lot depends on the real scale of the damage as assessed after the floods recede. For all its wisdom the Mead article shows how Pakistanis are good at impressing people and making friends who trust them despite Pakistan's frightful deceit. It is the friends who keep Pakistan alive.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

James B wrote:TFT Such Gup
Licking their chops

Patwaris and land revenue officials in the areas affected by flooding are licking their chops. Why? Because in many areas land boundaries have been so muddied by the raging waters that in many cases the top soil has been dislodged. As the waters begin to recede, rival claims are raising their heads because plots have to be physically marked out anew. This means that patwaris and their like will have a field day fleecing those who’ve already suffered hugely. The media should be vigilant about this new form of exploitation and the government should set up a mechanism to avoid this. Forewarned is forearmed.
Some on BRF have taken a special interest in the 'land reform' angle of Pakistan's problems in the past. The Pakistani Floods 2010, would most probably give a big push to just the opposite process 'land grab' and 'land fraud'! It would not just be open season on agricultural land of small farmers, but entire villages and private property of the poor could be confiscated. In fact, these floods could mean that almost as many private homes and as much real estate would be changing hands as was the case at Partition, without even 1 Rupee PKR being paid for the property.

How this would play in into the instability question in Pakistan would be interesting!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Help the secular, or face the extremists by Daud Khattak: Daily Times
It is as if the leaders of nationalist and secular parties, despite being in power, are hostages in their villas in the Pakistani capital of Islamabad. The result of this will obviously be in favour of the rightist and pro-jihadist parties, who seldom condemn the Taliban attacks on civilians
Being a cash-strapped province and bitterly shaken by the wave of terrorism in the past few years, the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa government is incapable of a swift response to the deluge and reaching all the affected areas at once. However, the affected people are expecting the leadership of the ruling secular party, the Awami National Party (ANP), to visit them and share the grief and shock they are passing through. But no leader, either from the ANP or the Pakistan People’s Party, visited any of the troubled areas, thus increasing the grievances of the people.
I don't know about you people here on BRF, but I can't see the plight of the poor people of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. Their lives have been shattered by this flooding.

Obviously the Pakistani Govt. and its representatives are not willing to stand side-by-side with their people. I would urge the Indian Government to take the 5 million USD and distribute relief supplies equal to this amount through India's consulate in Jalalabad. India should distribute the relief supplies to the tribal elders of the Afghan Pushtunistan region, who could smuggle the supplies across the border to Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by A_Gupta »

X-post: Cyril Almeida
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... ailure-080

IMO, what is relevant here is that the floods have thrust the face of Pakistani rural poverty into the faces of the RAPE. Suddenly whether they like it or not, it is in their living rooms. Of course, the RAPE may be busy going to the bank with all the aid they're going to loot. But the presence of television, and repeat broadcasts of images of the floods must impinge on the consciousness. E.g., To their dismay, they will realize that their country of the Pure TFTAs contains so many SDREs.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pratyush »

B/ Aditya,

That's a scary prospect. Am quite sure that this will be tried. The Security arrangement will be a nightmare for the security forces.
ramana
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

Jarita wrote:^^^ India is not shining?
We dont know what thought process is in your mind when you post half a line. So please come down from the ivory tower and enlighten us to what you are thinking. If you can please don't post inthis thread. Thanks, ramana

Note to all members.

There are two type of posts. De-railers and enablers.

De-railers are those which essentially de-rail the thought process and bring it to a grinding halt. A slight variation to this are those that lead it astray from a line of thinking and the thread meanders into limbo land.

Enablers are those that help and buttress the thought process. So the challenge for us is to figure out how to increase/transform the derailing posts to enabling posts in order to be meaningful.

The thought process(or idee fixee as the French call it) in case you didn't get it is captured in the thread title.
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