Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Jan 2012 15:55

Carl wrote:^^ I don't fully understand the reasons KSA propagates this brand of Islam. Is it just their ideological conviction? The Saudi regime themselves are targets of extreme jihadi networks.

World domination onlee

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2012 00:08

Carl wrote:^^ I don't fully understand the reasons KSA propagates this brand of Islam. Is it just their ideological conviction? The Saudi regime themselves are targets of extreme jihadi networks.

Could be guilt at their excess wealth and power. Was watching quite a bit of reruns on TV. Two programs come to mind about the KSA.

First one was a comedy show by Ralph Peters the Indian born comedian. He remarked that in his interlocution with ME citiziens they all unanimously blame the KSA for exporting extreme brand of Islam all over and especially to the Arab ME making life very unpleasant to the natives and ruining their image in the world.
He also remarked that the wealthy in KSA are extremely rich more than average rich person in the world. While he was making these remarks a member of the audience from ME was pointing to his next seat occupant as one of the epitomes of the RP's comments!
Next show is the culinary travels of Chef Bourdain on Travel Channel. He goes to KSA and interacts with the people. He gets to eat with the modern Saudis in cities, tents etc. he is in mixed company with women. The modern native born KSA women dont have head scarfs while dining. Its the converted Western woman married to a Saudi who speaks perfect English and wears the scarf more than her native born sister! He ends the show remarking about women not being allowed to drive etc yet all like good food and are decent people after all.
I think empowering the Saudi women is key step in changing KSA attitudes. If more of them run businesses and get educated, it will be enabler.

Also due to the Saudi penchant for getting foreign wives, its interesting how the new Saudis look as opposed to the old Saudis.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 05 Jan 2012 00:32

I think empowering the Saudi women is key step in changing KSA attitudes.

Of course. But how do we empower women in the bastion of Islam without tackling some tenets of Islam itself. Women empowerment can come from a separation of State and Mosque for instance. But is that going to happen in KSA for example without tackling those tenets?

Wealth and Power in Islam are also not religious blocks in Islam. Chapter 8 of the Koran is titled Booty and Spoils of war and the sharing of loot for instance.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Jan 2012 01:05

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islam ... e-att.html
( AVP)
New South Wales: fear of escalating violence after mosque attack

An attack on a Newcastle mosque, trapping seven worshippers inside, has been caught on security camera.The attack happened only minutes after a group of children had finished a scripture class and is the latest in a series of incidents that have left the city's Muslim community feeling "vulnerable and scared".In the security footage, which has been provided to police, two tattooed men are seen to approach the Wallsend mosque about 9.30pm on Monday. One man, with a large tattoo of a cross on his neck, kicks through the fence gate and hurls an object at the mosque's front door. Then he runs and smashes a flying kick into the door. More objects are thrown at the building and one of the men is seen to shout what appears to be abuse.Newcastle Muslim Association vice-president Diana Rah said seven worshippers were inside the mosque at the time and managed to lock the main entrance on the side of the building. The two men tried to kick through this entrance but were unsuccessful, she said. Ms Rah said a group of children left the mosque after an evening scripture class only minutes before the men arrived.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2012 01:42

harbans wrote:
I think empowering the Saudi women is key step in changing KSA attitudes.
Of course. But how do we empower women in the bastion of Islam without tackling some tenets of Islam itself. Women empowerment can come from a separation of State and Mosque for instance. But is that going to happen in KSA for example without tackling those tenets?
Wealth and Power in Islam are also not religious blocks in Islam. Chapter 8 of the Koran is titled Booty and Spoils of war and the sharing of loot for instance.

The second Caliphate dynasty (Ummayads) onwards separted the State from the Mosque by shifting the capital to Damascus. The rise of Abbasid Caliphate is due to the State being far away from Mecca. One way in modern world is to accord Mecca and Madinah indepenent status. But that will lead to different set of issues.

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 05 Jan 2012 12:07

A science teacher at a public school requires her students to visit an exhibit on Islamic Science at the Tech museum for extra credit. No, the students cannot submit their paper based on on-line research, but have to visit the museum and staple the entry ticket with their submission. It so happens that the teacher in question is a follower of Islam. I can understand the visit if this were for a social studies class. Some of the sponsors of the exhibit are CAIR, MCA, SBLA, WVMA,Ta'Leef, Salam and MAS.

Why do the followers of Islam glamorize the term 'Islamic Science', when the contributions to the sciences came from various regions and peoples? When we look at the discoverers/ inventors from the 'Islamic Civilizations'; they came from various backgrounds, regions and countries. It is not like they were a single kingdom/ country. If the result of their discoveries/ inventions were a direct result of following the Islamic scripture or principles, I can agree with the term Islamic Science. It is a documented fact that these inventors/ discovers had substantial contact with other civilizations and peoples and borrowed concepts and built upon them. While debatable, I have even come across articles that state that most of them were involved with translating knowledge from the Indians and Greeks and introduced these to the Europeans.

While scientific discoveries by civilizations are fascinating and can be an educational experience, I am having a bit of trouble rationalizing this for a science class (studying biology) given the concept of separation of church and state in the US. I get the feeling that this is an insidious way of glamorizing Islam the religion by using a subterfuge of Science.

P.S. Didn't realize I hit the century mark with this submission!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Jan 2012 12:08

ramana wrote:
harbans wrote:quote]I think empowering the Saudi women is key step in changing KSA attitudes./quote]

Of course. But how do we empower women in the bastion of Islam without tackling some tenets of Islam itself. Women empowerment can come from a separation of State and Mosque for instance. But is that going to happen in KSA for example without tackling those tenets?
Wealth and Power in Islam are also not religious blocks in Islam. Chapter 8 of the Koran is titled Booty and Spoils of war and the sharing of loot for instance.

The second Caliphate dynasty (Ummayads) onwards separted the State from the Mosque by shifting the capital to Damascus. The rise of Abbasid Caliphate is due to the State being far away from Mecca. One way in modern world is to accord Mecca and Madinah indepenent status. But that will lead to different set of issues.

That will rob Saudis of the whole purpose of Islam from their viewpoint, Asians must feel lesser to arabs, thats why in Haj/UMra only white and arab muslims can use the special trains. Asians and Africans have to take the bus.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Jan 2012 14:29

Aditya_V wrote:
ramana wrote:{quote="harbans"}I think empowering the Saudi women is key step in changing KSA attitudes./quote]

Of course. But how do we empower women in the bastion of Islam without tackling some tenets of Islam itself. Women empowerment can come from a separation of State and Mosque for instance. But is that going to happen in KSA for example without tackling those tenets?
Wealth and Power in Islam are also not religious blocks in Islam. Chapter 8 of the Koran is titled Booty and Spoils of war and the sharing of loot for instance.

The second Caliphate dynasty (Ummayads) onwards separted the State from the Mosque by shifting the capital to Damascus. The rise of Abbasid Caliphate is due to the State being far away from Mecca. One way in modern world is to accord Mecca and Madinah indepenent status. But that will lead to different set of issues.

That will rob Saudis of the whole purpose of Islam from their viewpoint, Asians must feel lesser to arabs, thats why in Haj/UMra only white and arab muslims can use the special trains. Asians and Africans have to take the bus.

Not to mention robbing the ruler of the clan of the title "defender of the faith"

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Jan 2012 16:09

i.e custodian of the 2 Holy Mosques

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2012 22:36

It was an IM delegation that made Ibn Saud realize that title in 1929, per Dori Gold's book "Hatred's Kingdom".

RCase which school district and please make people aware by writing to SJ Merc News. Can also contact ACLU and Anti Defamation League. So please make the details public in the GDF nukkad.

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Jan 2012 08:50

Christian place of worship shot up in Nigeria killing 6 worshippers by attackers suspected to be Mohammaddens:

Boko Haram kills 6 in Gombe

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 06 Jan 2012 14:57

Blasts rip through Iraq, kill 72

The blasts occurred in the run-up to Arbaeen, a Shiite holy day which sees Shiite pilgrims from across Iraq make their way to Karbala, south of Baghdad.

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 06 Jan 2012 19:36

I have compiled the following to show some similarities between Pre-Islamic Arab religion and Hindu religion. I have used Wikipedia as my main source for all information on Pre-Islamic Arab religion. Some basic comments on Hindu religion are mine. Rest is again extracted from Wikipedia.

Some years ago I read somewhere that archaeologist have found several shivlings in Arab peninsula, particularly in Yemen. Could it be that Arabs were following a particular type of localised Hindu religion? Could it be that the Black Stone at Kaba is actually a shivling?

1. Dushara (Arabic: ذو شرى‎) was a Nabataean god. His name means "L Dushara (Arabic: ذو شرى‎, "Lord of the Mountain"), also transliterated as 'Dusares', was an aniconic deity in the ancient Middle East worshipped by the Nabataeans at Petra and Madain Saleh (of which city he was the patron).
He was mothered by Manat the goddess of fate.[1] In Greek times, he was associated with Zeus because he was the chief of the Nabataean pantheon as well as with Dionysus. His sanctuary at Petra contained a great temple in which a large cubical stone was the centrepiece.

Lord of the Mountain = Lord Shiva who resides in Kailash mountain
Cubical stone = Shivling

2. Manaf (Arabic: مناف‎) The statue of Manaf was caressed by women, but when they had their periods they were not allowed near it.[11]

Hindu women do not go to temple or participate in religious ceremonies while menstruating

3. Wadd (Arabic: واد‎) God of love and friendship. Snakes were believed to be sacred to Wadd.[11]

Kamdev – God of Love. He was burnt by Lord Shiv using his Trinetra (Third Eye)
Snakes around Shiva’s neck

4. Amm (Arabic: أم‎) was a moon god worshipped in ancient Qataban. He was revered as a weather god, as his attributes included lightning bolts.

Vajra is a Sanskrit word meaning both thunderbolt and diamond. It is described as the weapon of Indra, the god of heaven and the chief deity of the Rigvedic pantheon.

King Vajra was Aniruddha's Son and Sri Krishna's great-grandson. His mother was Aniruddha's wife, the Daitya princess Usha. Krishna just before his death made Vajra the King of Yadava dynasty at Indraprastha. Legend holds that as the sole survivor of the Yadava race after the Mahabharata war, Vajra was responsible for re-establishing the city of Mathura.

5. Ta'lab (Arabic: طالب‎) A god worshipped in southern Arabia, particularly in Sheba. Ta'lab was the moon god. His oracle was consulted for advice.

Crescent above Lord Shiva’s head

6. Aglibôl was a lunar deity in the ancient Syrian city of Palmyra. His name means "Calf of Bel" ("Calf of the Lord").
Aglibôl is depicted with a lunar halo decorating his head and sometimes his shoulders, and one of his attributes is the sickle moon.

Aglibôl is linked with the sun god Yarḥibôl in a famous trinity. He is also associated with the Syrian versions of Astarte "Venus" and with Arṣu "Evening Star".
Aglibôl's cult continued into Hellenic times and was later extended to Rome.

Aglibol = Lord Shiva
Again crescent of moon mentioned
Trinity = Lord Brahma, Lord Vishnu & Lord Mahesh (Lord Shiva)

7. Almaqah
Sabaean inscription addressed to the moon god Almaqah, mentioning five ancient Yemeni gods, two reigning sovereigns and two governors,7th century,BCE

Almaqah or Ilmuqah (Epigraphic South Arabian ‮ ‬; Ge'ez , ʾLMQH, Arabic المقة ) was the moon god of the ancient Yemeni kingdom of Saba' and the kingdoms of Dʿmt and Aksum in Eritrea and Northern Ethiopia (branched out of Saba). The ruling dynasty of Saba' regarded themselves as his children. Almaqah is represented on monuments by a cluster of lightning bolts surrounding a curved, sickle-like weapon. Bulls were sacred to him.‬‬‬

Nandi (Bull) is always present in Lord Shiva’s temple facing shivling

8 Ruda is a deity that was of paramount importance in the Arab pantheon of gods worshipped by the North Arabian tribes of pre-Islamic Arabia.[1] Known as Arsu among the Palmyrans, in a later Aramaic inscription, Arsu/Ruda is paired with the Syrian god Resheph, a protective deity for his worshippers from the 3rd millennium BC.[1]

Ruda formed part of a trinity of gods worshipped by the Yumu'il confederation, a northern Arab tribal confederation of Ishmaelite ancestry headed by the "clan of Kedar" (Qedarites).[2] According to Lange, Ruda was the moon deity, Nuha the sun deity, and Atarsamain the main deity was associated with Venus.[2]

A trinity of gods representing the sun, moon and Venus is also found among the peoples of the South Arabian kingdoms of Awsan, Ma'in, Qataban and Hadramawt between the 9th and 4th centuries BC.[2] There, the deity associated with Venus was Astarte, the sun deity was Yam, and moon deity was variously called Wadd, Amm and Sin.[2]

Ruda = Rudra
Resheph = Rishab = Bull = Nandi
Kedar = Kedarnath
Yam = Yama = Lord of death
Trinity mentioned again

9. Hubal most prominently appears at Mecca, where an image of his was worshipped at the Kaaba. According to Karen Armstrong, the sanctuary was dedicated to Hubal, who was worshipped as the greatest of the 360 idols the Kaaba contained, which probably represented the days of the year.[1] According to Julius Wellhausen Hubal was regarded as the son of al-Lāt and the brother of Wadd.[2]
Hisham Ibn Al-Kalbi's Book of Idols describes the image as shaped like a human, with the right hand broken off and replaced with a golden hand.[3] According to Ibn Al-Kalbi, the image was made of red agate, whereas Al-Azraqi, an early Islamic commentator, described it as of "cornelian pearl". Al-Azraqi also relates that it "had a vault for the sacrifice" and that the offering consisted of a hundred camels. Both authors speak of seven arrows, placed before the image, which were cast for divination, in cases of death, virginity and marriage.[3] According to Al-Azraqi, a man coming back from a journey would shave his hair and then circumambulate the Kaaba before going to his family.

Hubal = Hanuman
Red agate – An image of Hanuman is always smeared with red Sindoor

Hanuman was born to Anjana, a female vanara, and Kesari, a male vanara, in Anjana Giri mountain. His mother was an apsara who was born on Earth as a female vanara due to a curse. She would be redeemed from this curse on her giving birth to an incarnation of Lord Shiva, who is also known as Rudra, and endowed with the Supreme Power of exalted devotion to Bhagwan Hari. Hanuman is endowed with 28 transcendental divine opulences, with perfection in each. Anjana, along with her husband Kesari, performed intense prayers to Lord Shiva to beget Him as her Child. Pleased with their devotion, Shiva granted them the boon they sought.[3] Hence, Hanuman is also known as "Maharudra" because he was born of the boon given to Anjana by Shiva.

Hanuman’s weapons are a parashu, a talwar, a chakra, a dhaal, a gada, a trishula, a kumbha, a Katar, and a big Gada.

Hindu pilgrims shave their hair e.g. at Tirupati

Circumambulation is common at Hindu temples

10. Beelshamen (Baal-Shamin), also known as Shamayim "lord of the heavens", was a supreme deity and the sky god of pre-Islamic Palmyra in ancient Syria. His attributes are the eagle and the lightning bolt. "Beel" is one form of Baal, a Semitic title for "Lord", equivalent to Bel in Mesopotamia.
Beelshamen formed a triad with the lunar god Aglibol and the sun god Malakbel ("Messenger, or, Angel of the Lord").

Shamayim = Shyam = Ghanshyam =Lord Krishna
Eagle = Garuda
Lightning bolt = Vajra
Trinity mentioned again

11. ʾĒl (written aleph-lamed, e.g., אל, إل or إله etc.) is a Northwest Semitic word meaning "deity", cognate to Akkadian ‘ilu and then to Hebrew עֵלִי: Eli and Arabic إيل).

In the Canaanite religion, or Levantine religion as a whole, Eli or Il was the supreme god,[2] the father of humankind and all creatures and the husband of the goddess Asherah as recorded in the clay tablets of Ugarit (modern Rās Shamrā - Arabic: رأس شمرا‎, Syria).[2]

The noun ʾēl was found at the top of a list of gods as the Ancient of gods or the Father of all gods, in the ruins of the royal archive of the Ebla civilization, in the archaeological site of Tell Mardikh in Syria dated to 2300 BC. The bull was symbolic to El and his son Ba'al Hadad, and they both wore bull horns on their headdress. [3][4][5][6] He may have been a desert god at some point, as the myths say that he had two wives and built a sanctuary with them and his new children in the desert. El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam, and Mot.

In the Ugaritic Ba‘al cycle Ēl is introduced dwelling on (or in) Mount Lel (Lel possibly meaning 'Night') at the fountains of the two rivers at the spring of the two deeps. He dwells in a tent according to some interpretations of the text which may explain why he had no temple in Ugarit. As to the rivers and the spring of the two deeps, these might refer to real streams, or to the mythological sources of the salt water ocean and the fresh water sources under the earth, or to the waters above the heavens and the waters beneath the earth.

Bull is mentioned again

Lord Shiva had two wives – Sati and Parvati

Yam = Lord Yama = Lord of Death

Mount Lel = Mount Kailash

River Ganga – coming down from heaven

12. In Ugaritic Mot 'Death' (spelled mt) is personified as a god of death. The word is cognate with forms meaning 'death' in other Semitic and Afro-Asiatic languages: with Arabic موت mawt; with Hebrew מות (mot or mavet; ancient hebrew moth or maweth); with Maltese mewt; with Syriac mautā; with Ge'ez mot; with Canaanite, Egyptian Aramaic, Nabataean, and Palmyrene מות (mwt); with Jewish Aramaic, Christian Palestinian Aramaic, and Samaritan מותא (mwt’); with Mandaean muta; with Akkadian mūtu; with Hausa mutuwa; and with Angas mut. The name of the god, in its abstract meaning of death, survives use in the English language in the game of chess, "mate".

Mot 'Death', son of 'El, according to instructions given by the god Hadad (Ba‘al) to his messengers, lives in a city named hmry ('Mirey'), a pit is his throne, and Filth is the land of her heritage.

Yam = Lord Yama = Lord of Death

Mot = Mrityu (Sanskrit) = death

Lord Shiv = God of Destruction (Lord Brahma = Lord of Creation, Lord Vishnu = Lord of Sustainability – Part of Trinity)

13. Nuha formed part of a trinity of gods worshipped by what he calls the Yumu'il confederation, which he describes as a northern Arab tribal confederation of Ishmaelite ancestry headed by the "clan of Kedar" (Qedarites).[2] According to Lange, Nuha was the sun deity, Ruda the moon deity, and Atarsamain the main deity was associated with Venus.[2]

A trinity of gods representing the sun, moon and Venus is also found among the peoples of the South Arabian kingdoms of Awsan, Ma'in, Qataban and Hadramawt between the 9th and 4th centuries BC.[2] There, the deity associated with Venus was Astarte, the sun deity was Yam, and moon deity was variously called Wadd, Amm and Sin.[2]

Trinity/Kedar/Rudra mentioned again

Lord Rama from Solar dynasty

Lord Krishna from Moon dynasty

14. Sin (Akkadian: Su'en, Sîn) or Nanna (Sumerian: DŠEŠ.KI, DNANNA) was the god of the moon in Mesopotamian mythology. Nanna is a Sumerian deity, the son of Enlil and Ninlil, and became identified with Semitic Sin. The two chief seats of Nanna's/Sin's worship were Ur in the south of Mesopotamia and Harran in the north.

Sin had a beard made of lapis lazuli and rode on a winged bull. The bull was one of his symbols, through his father, Enlil, "Bull of Heaven", along with the crescent and the tripod (which may be a lamp-stand). On cylinder seals, he is represented as an old man with a flowing beard and the crescent symbol. In the astral-theological system he is represented by the number 30 and the moon. This number probably refers to the average number of days (correctly around 29.53) in a lunar month, as measured between successive new moons.

Sin/Nanna = Shiva

Again crescent of moon & bull mentioned

15. Al-Uzzá (Arabic: العزى‎ al-ʻUzzá, IPA: /al ʕuzzaː/) was one of the three chief goddesses of Arabian religion in pre-Islamic times and was worshiped as one of the daughters of Allah by the pre-Islamic era.
The Arabs had developed a number of subsidiary Ka‘bāt (tawaghit) at different places in the land, each with its presiding god or goddess. They used to visit those shrines at appointed times, circumambulate them and make sacrifices of animals there, besides performing other polytheistic rites. The most prominent of these shrines were those of al-Lāt at Ta'if, al-‘Uzzá at Nakhlah and al-Manāt near Qudayd. The origins of these idols are uncertain. Ibn al-Kalbī says that al-Lāt was "younger" ('ahdath) than al-Manawat, while al-‘Uzzá was "younger" than both al-Lāt and al-Manawat. But though al-‘Uzzá was thus the youngest of the three; it was nonetheless the most important and the greatest (‘azam) idol with the Quraysh who, along with the Banū Kinānah, ministered to it.

On the authority of ‘Abdu l-Lāh ibn ‘Abbās, at-Tabari derived al-‘Uzzá from al-‘Azīz "the Mighty", one of the 99 "beautiful names of Allah" in his commentary on Qur'an 7:180.[9]

Kabat = Tirths = Pilgrim Centres

Except at the temples of Kali/Kamakhya, sacrifice of animals is no longer practised in India and replaced by other offerings including coconuts

Circumambulation is common at Hindu temples

16. Allāt or al-Lāt (Arabic: اللات‎) was a Pre-Islamic Arabian goddess who was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca. She is mentioned in the Qur'an (Sura 53:19), which indicates that pre-Islamic Arabs considered her as one of the daughters of Allah along with Manāt and al-‘Uzzá.

17. Manat - was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca, Arabs believed Manāt to be the goddess of fate, The Book of Idols describes her as the most ancient of all these idols. The Arabs used to name [their children] 'Abd-Manāt and Zayd-Manāt. Manāt was erected on the seashore in the vicinity of al-Mushallal in Qudayd, between Medina and Mecca. All the Arabs used to venerate her and sacrifice before her. The Aws and the Khazraj, as well as the inhabitants of Medina and Mecca and their vicinities, used to venerate Manāt, sacrifice before her, and bring unto her their offerings... The Aws and the Khazraj, as well as those Arabs among the people of Yathrib and other places who took to their way of life, were wont to go on pilgrimage and observe the vigil at all the appointed places, but not shave their heads. At the end of the pilgrimage, however, when they were about to return home, they would set out to the place where Manāt stood, shave their heads, and stay there a while. They did not consider their pilgrimage completed until they visited Manāt.[13]

Shaving of heads at the famous Tirupati temple

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 07 Jan 2012 18:26

This stuff coming daily from RoPers gets boring if it were not so tragic..I doubt Nigeria can continue this way. Either Sharia or direct action is the demand.

20 Christians gunned down in Nigeria

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jan 2012 21:29

Shankaraa that is a very interesting compilation.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 07 Jan 2012 23:56

Came across this video.

It really is that simple for these bunch of ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxuY0Cm9azA

Its almost scary how the Americans are being fooled.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 08 Jan 2012 00:20

Is that a clip from a Hindi movie?

Please tell me the name. I should start watching movies more frequently.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 08 Jan 2012 00:27

I dont know about the movie. Dont watch much. But I will not be surprised if it is.

Indians have been a target of this deracination drive since almost for ever

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 08 Jan 2012 00:38

I think this sort of logic would be counter-productive for Islamists is the number of casualties becomes the matter of debate, they will soon need to have tails between their legs when the past genocides are listed to them. The most scary part for me is that Indian movies are a vehicle for driving the concept of Ummah (the bugger - Riyaz the character) has so much to talk about Afghanistan/Gaza/etc to show it is all one-group. Our censor boards have let this kind of message pass! The above is not de-racination IMHO, it is Wahabization.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 08 Jan 2012 01:57

The logic would become counter productive only when the opponent is someone with a long memory and strong paachan sakti. Amerikans are not that.

And the listing will not include merely the past genocides. Once the people are told in some serious manner how the Ummah in India has been keeping away or being kept away from the common minimum program and how criminal it is, will the people realise the worthlessness of these ==.

But are you sure this is any Indian movie. Professor sahab thode thode Pataudi ki aulad lag rahen hain. Also you bet this video is going to remain on that site for ever.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 08 Jan 2012 02:31

that youtube clip is a classic example of B'wood selling out lock, stock, and barrel to certain interests.....the amount of whitewashing is astonishing.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Jan 2012 02:35

Why dont they discuss Islam occupying the Indian and other non Muslim territories ? The article in Paki newspaper explicitly states that almost every Muslim in Indian subcontinent belives that source of there fatherhood lies in men from Arabia. They have not concoted Arabian mother yet.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Jan 2012 02:41

ravi_g wrote:The logic would become counter productive only when the opponent is someone with a long memory and strong paachan sakti. Amerikans are not that.

And the listing will not include merely the past genocides. Once the people are told in some serious manner how the Ummah in India has been keeping away or being kept away from the common minimum program and how criminal it is, will the people realise the worthlessness of these ==.
But are you sure this is any Indian movie. Professor sahab thode thode Pataudi ki aulad lag rahen hain. Also you bet this video is going to remain on that site for ever.

Um_haa can also justify collective punishement for genocidal history of Islam.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jan 2012 03:54

prahaar wrote:Is that a clip from a Hindi movie? Please tell me the name. I should start watching movies more frequently.

Its a Bollywood movie called Kurbaan. Saif Ali plays a Paki extremist who marries a NRI(Kareena Kapoor) so he can join a terrorist cell in NYC. Vivek is fellow traveller who becomes good Taliban and turns the cell in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurbaan_%282009_film%29

I dont know whats the sacrifice is about.

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 09 Jan 2012 14:55

Thank you Doc.

Allah
In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by Meccans as a reference to a creator-god, possibly a supreme deity.[3][4] Allah was not considered the sole divinity; however, Allah was considered the creator of the world and the giver of rain. The notion of the term may have been vague in the Meccan religion.[3] Allah was associated with companions, whom pre-Islamic Arabs considered as subordinate deities. Meccans held that a kind of kinship existed between Allah and the jinn.[5] Allah was thought to have had sons[6] and that the local deities of al-ʿUzzā, Manāt and al-Lāt were his daughters.[7] The Meccans possibly associated angels with Allah.[8][9] Allah was invoked in times of distress.[9][10] Muhammad's father's name was ʿAbd-Allāh meaning "the worshiper of Allāh"[9]

The Three Goddesses
1.Allāt (Arabic: اللات‎) or Al-Lāt was a Pre-Islamic Arabian goddess who was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca. Pre-Islamic Arabs considered her as one of the daughters of Allāh along with Manāt and al-‘Uzzá. She was placed in Taif.[11][clarification needed]

2.Al-‘Uzzá (Arabic: العزى‎) "The Mightiest One" or "The strong" was an Arabian fertility goddess who was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca, Arabs only called upon her or Hubal for protection and victory before war to show how important she was.[12]

3.Manāt (Arabic: مناة‎) Was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca, Arabs believed Manāt to be the goddess of fate, The Book of Idols describes her as the most ancient of all these idols. The Arabs used to name [their children] 'Abd-Manāt and Zayd-Manāt. Manāt was erected on the seashore in the vicinity of al-Mushallal in Qudayd, between Medina and Mecca. All the Arabs used to venerate her and sacrifice before her. The Aws and the Khazraj, as well as the inhabitants of Medina and Mecca and their vicinities, used to venerate Manāt, sacrifice before her, and bring unto her their offerings... The Aws and the Khazraj, as well as those Arabs among the people of Yathrib and other places who took to their way of life, were wont to go on pilgrimage and observe the vigil at all the appointed places, but not shave their heads. At the end of the pilgrimage, however, when they were about to return home, they would set out to the place where Manāt stood, shave their heads, and stay there a while. They did not consider their pilgrimage completed until they visited Manāt.[13]

Kaba
The early Arabian population consisted primarily of warring nomadic tribes. When they did converge peacefully, it was usually under the protection of religious practices.[23] Writing in the Encyclopedia of Islam, Wensinck identifies Mecca with a place called Macoraba mentioned by Ptolemy. His text is believed to date from the second century AD, about 500 years before the coming of Muhammad,[24] and described it as a foundation in southern Arabia, built around a sanctuary. It probably did not become an area of religious pilgrimage until around 500 A.D. It was then that the Quraysh tribe (into which Muhammad was later born) took control of Macoraba, and made an agreement with the local Kinana Bedouins for possession.[25] The sanctuary itself, located in a barren valley surrounded by mountains, was probably built at the location of the water source today known as the Zamzam Well, an area of considerable religious significance.

Prior to Islam the Kaaba of Mecca was covered in symbols representing the myriad demons, djinn, demigods, or simply tribal gods and other assorted deities which represented the polytheistic culture of pre-Islamic Arabia. In her book, Islam: A Short History, Karen Armstrong asserts that the Kaaba was dedicated to Hubal, a Nabatean deity, and contained 360 idols that either represented the days of the year,[26] or were effigies of the Arabian pantheon. Once a year, tribes from all around the Arabian peninsula, whether Christian or pagan, would converge on Mecca to perform the Hajj.

Imoti[27] contends that there were multiple such "Kaaba" sanctuaries in Arabia at one time, but this was the only one built of stone. The others also allegedly had counterparts of the Black Stone. There was a "red stone", the deity of the south Arabian city of Ghaiman, and the "white stone" in the Kaaba of al-Abalat (near the city of Tabala, south of Mecca). Grunebaum in Classical Islam points out that the experience of divinity of that period was often associated with stone fetishes, mountains, special rock formations, or "trees of strange growth."[28] The Kaaba was thought to be at the center of the world with the Gate of Heaven directly above it. The Kaaba marked the location where the sacred world intersected with the profane, and the embedded Black Stone was a further symbol of this as a meteorite that had fallen from the sky and linked heaven and earth.[29]

At the time of Muhammad (CE 570–632 A.D), his tribe, the Quraysh, was in charge of the Kaaba, which was at that time a shrine containing hundreds of idols representing Arabian tribal gods and other religious figures. Muhammad earned the enmity of his tribe by claiming the Kaaba to be dedicated to the worship of the one God alone, and all the idols evicted.

The Qiblah, for any point of reference on the Earth, is the direction of the Kaaba.

Originally, the Qiblah for Muslims was toward the Noble Sanctuary in Jerusalem. This Qiblah was used for over 13 years, from 610 CE until 623 CE. Seventeen months after the Islamic prophet Muhammad's 622 CE arrival in Medina – the date is given as 11 February 624 – the Qiblah became oriented towards the Kaaba in Mecca.[1][2] According to traditional accounts from Muhammad's companions, the change happened very suddenly during the noon prayer in Medina, in a mosque now known as Masjid al-Qiblatain (Mosque of the Two Qiblahs).[2] Muhammad was leading the prayer when he received revelations from God instructing him to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah (literally, "Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque:").[2][3] According to the traditional accounts contained in the hadith and sira, Muhammad, who had been facing Jerusalem, upon receiving this revelation, immediately turned around to face Mecca, and those praying behind him also did so.[2]

Some have claimed that the Qur'an does not identify or allude to Jerusalem as being the first Qiblah and that the practise of facing Jerusalem is only mentioned in traditional biographies of Muhammad and hadith collections.[4] There is also disagreement as to when the practice started and for how long it lasted.[4] Some sources say the Jerusalem Qiblah was used for a period of between sixteen to eighteen months.[5] The Jewish custom of facing Jerusalem for prayer may have influenced the Muslim Qiblah.[6] Others surmise that the use of Jerusalem as the direction of prayer was to either induce the Jews of Medina to convert to Islam or to "win over their hearts."[5] When relations with the Jews soured, Muhammad changed the Qiblah towards Mecca.[6] Another reason given why the Qiblah was changed is that Jews viewed the use of Jerusalem as signalling the Muslims' intention of joining their religion. It was changed to discredit this assumption.[5] Others state that it was changed because Muhammad was angered by that city or its people, and not because of his conflict with the Jews.

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 09 Jan 2012 16:38

Rajeshji

I think this thread is a very good idea.

The trouble is that we dare not speak the truth in case Muslims are hurt! This happens on TV, in public rallies etc. If Hindus speak their mind, they are immediately classified as ‘saffron terrorists’, ‘RSS sympathisers’ etc. Secularism in India is used as a one way street to bash Hindus and appease Muslims. Hindus feel that their opinions and feelings do not count in India. I firmly believe that we already have a green Paki flag flying at Red Fort; it’s just not visible!

For thousands of years, Hindus have been at the receiving end and yet they cannot complain! Millions of Hindus have been slaughtered or converted by Islamists. Thousands of Hindu temples have been either razed or converted into mosques including our holiest temples at Mathura, Varanasi and Somnath. Hindus are not allowed to make a temple at Ram Janmabhoomi. Can you even imagine, in what I call a ‘reverse’ situation, whereby Hindus have destroyed Kaba in Arabia and the Arab majority are not allowed to build Kaba again in their own country! In South, one’s heart bleeds when one sees the ruins of Vijaynagar and how this mighty Hindu kingdom was defeated by three Muslim kings. Thousands of Hindu women have been raped or converted by Islamic marauders. Yet our government will not allow syllabus to reflect these atrocities. Hindu holocaust is the biggest holocaust in the history of mankind! Our history has been deliberately twisted ‘to maintain peace’ at a huge cost to Hindus. In modern times, Hindus suffered very badly during Bangladesh war and are still suffering. In Pakistan, there are many cases of Hindu girls/women being raped or converted and Hindus generally live under very suffocating conditions. Hindu population in Pakistan is now less than 1%. Yet the Indian government would not lodge a strong protest, let alone help our Hindu people.

In Bollywood, I see ‘love jihad’ happening. For example, Muzzafar Ali (Producer of ‘Umraojaan’) got married for the third time – all three wives are Hindu! Shah Rukh, Amir Khan, Salman’s father, Ayub Khan, Sohail Khan etc. have married Hindu women. Saif Ali is planning to get married to Karina. Surely there must be a hidden agenda for Muslims to get married to Hindu women only. We used to have Muslim actresses like Waheeda, Mumtaz etc but nowadays one only notices Muslim heroes and no Muslim heroines – why? Villains are always portrayed as Hindu thugs with tilaks on their foreheads but the nice guy would always be a Christian ‘father’ or a ‘humble’ Muslim neighbour! Hindu priests are shown as rapists and alcoholic or kicked around but Muslim Maulvis are always shown as ‘pious’ persons. In 60s and 70s, bhajans were regular items in Bollywood films but it is now rare to see ‘Bhajans’ in Bollywood films. The names of two lesbians in a film called ‘Fire’ were deliberately kept as Sita and Radha to hurt Hindu sentiments. Would the producer dare to call them Ayesha and Mariam? I think D gang is calling shots in Bollywood!

In India, charlatans like Zakir Naik are allowed to talk openly about so called ‘Islamic superiority’ on TV and convert Hindu people but nationalist organisation like RSS is continuously portrayed as a fascist organisation by the UPA government. Artists like Hussain are allowed to paint Sita nude but Hindus are not even allowed to show that their sentiments are hurt. Why did Hussain not paint a single portrait of his prophet under freedom of expression? Why did he not draw a nude painting of Ayesha? Why is it that this so called freedom of expression is always used to demean Hinduism but not Islam?

Indian government and some state governments are bending over backwards for Muslim reservation in government jobs whilst millions of poor Hindus are ignored in their own country. Indian government subsidises costs for Hajj pilgrims but usurps millions of rupees from temples without our permission.

In media, people like Barkha Dutt would interview Kashmiri Muslims as if they are the only ones who are suffering but she would not interview any Hindu who has lost a relative in a terrorist attack. For example, when more than 250 Hindus were killed in a bomb blast by terrorists in a Mumbai train attack, Barkha did not interview a single Hindu family affected by this. Similarly, she did not interview the relatives of those Hindus who were killed by terrorists at CST, Mumbai. She did not confront Mussaraff when he openly said in his interview with her that he instigated the Kargil war. I watched a NDTV programme on 1971 Bangladesh war recently. Again, Barkha was ‘offering’ her opinion to viewers that ‘we should not see this war as triumphalism’! How dare she talk like that when we have lost more than 3,500 brave soldiers in this war. Who needs enemies when we have biased media people like Barkha in India?

I can go on and on but I have to stop now!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 09 Jan 2012 16:54

Shankaraa ji,

glad you like the thread! However I believe you have misunderstood its aim. Please do read the first post of this thread, as well as this subsequent post.

I did try starting a new thread where one could discuss Islam in general in the "Islam - Critical Analysis of Theology, History & Society" Thread. That did not pass the test.

The problem is that many here do wish to make comments on Islam, including moderators in their poster capacity, but due to the lack of an appropriate thread, start squatting in this thread, making this thread vulnerable to Hellfire missiles.

But you may like to post and discuss your issues of interest at the "Indicization of Indian Islam - Blazing New Paths" Thread if you so wish.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Jan 2012 19:11

Cancel Salman Rushdie's visa: Deoband

I guess at this rate soon we will have Sharia law and jaziya directly (now inderctly) being implemented.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Jan 2012 23:31

Shankaraa, Good summary so far. Please look at the various ME versions of Moloch.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 Jan 2012 21:16

Aditya_V wrote:Cancel Salman Rushdie's visa: Deoband

I guess at this rate soon we will have Sharia law and jaziya directly (now inderctly) being implemented.

rushdie does not need a visa to enter India.

He is a PIO and has a PIO card entitling him to enter the country at any time.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 10 Jan 2012 21:39

Carl wrote:^^ I don't fully understand the reasons KSA propagates this brand of Islam. Is it just their ideological conviction? The Saudi regime themselves are targets of extreme jihadi networks.

Some details I got from Steve Coll's "Bin Ladens" in how Ibn Saud founded KSA from obscurity. He was helped by Ikhwanis - an Islamist extremist group who now believe that they were cheated of an Islamic kingdom (apparently KSA is not islamic enough for these nuts

) and they are quite powerful and it is KSA's policy to allow them to 'export' their extremism outside (like the Afghan jihad, wahabi mosques etc) so that they are not venting their ire on the princes, whose personal lifestyle is quite blasphemous even with a generous interpretation of islam. It is not KSA's policy to propagate this brand of Islam...their only policy is to stay in power.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 10 Jan 2012 23:13

^^ Gus, thanks for the historical background.
-----------------------------------

The following is supposed to be the opposing view to that of modern Moroccan philosopher al-Jabri (just passed away). Jabri's deconstructionist critique of the "Arab intellect" accused it of stasis and inability to evolve out of shari'ah and cultural constraints. For starters, these opposing Islamist sheikhs point out that Jabri has focussed only on Arabs and not looked at the alleged achievements of other Islamic civilizations.

The following author is also Dean of the "Cambridge Muslim College". One of Londonstan sheikhs.

QUR’ANIC TRUTH AND THE MEANING OF ‘DHIMMA’

by ABDAL HAKIM MURAD

With a Foreword by DR UMAR FARUQ ABD-ALLAH

This short essay by Abdal Hakim Murad, one of leading Muslim intellectuals in the West, is a concise and rich theological statement exploring the dynamic possibilities of an authentically Islamic universality for our age. Whereas modern globalism tends to annihilate cultural diversity, authentic Islamic pluralism, as exemplified in the theological implications of dhimma, offers to each community the opportunity to develop its own sacred space and express its own uniqueness.

June 2010

Download publication (pdf)

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Jan 2012 23:20

Shankaraa wrote:
In media, people like Barkha Dutt would interview Kashmiri Muslims as if they are the only ones who are suffering but she would not interview any Hindu who has lost a relative in a terrorist attack. For example, when more than 250 Hindus were killed in a bomb blast by terrorists in a Mumbai train attack, Barkha did not interview a single Hindu family affected by this. Similarly, she did not interview the relatives of those Hindus who were killed by terrorists at CST, Mumbai. She did not confront Mussaraff when he openly said in his interview with her that he instigated the Kargil war. I watched a NDTV programme on 1971 Bangladesh war recently. Again, Barkha was ‘offering’ her opinion to viewers that ‘we should not see this war as triumphalism’! How dare she talk like that when we have lost more than 3,500 brave soldiers in this war. Who needs enemies when we have biased media people like Barkha in India?

I can go on and on but I have to stop now!

Indian media is being taken over by foriegn interest. Indian interest media is not coming up at all

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Jan 2012 00:45

Carl wrote:QUR’ANIC TRUTH AND THE MEANING OF ‘DHIMMA’[/url]
by ABDAL HAKIM MURAD
With a Foreword by DR UMAR FARUQ ABD-ALLAH

This short essay by Abdal Hakim Murad, one of leading Muslim intellectuals in the West, is a concise and rich theological statement exploring the dynamic possibilities of an authentically Islamic universality for our age. Whereas modern globalism tends to annihilate cultural diversity, authentic Islamic pluralism, as exemplified in the theological implications of dhimma, offers to each community the opportunity to develop its own sacred space and express its own uniqueness.une 2010

Its joke to call fuddu an intellectual.
Some one must ask then Muslims should accept themselves as Dhimmi and live within the boundaries of Dhimma in Kaffir deshs. After all its a honorable term in Islamic framework.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 11 Jan 2012 00:51

^ what if they actually are willing to live as Dhimmis till their time comes....

the problem as i see is to strike a balance between rights and duties while attaining a super critical level of generation capacity.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Jan 2012 02:07

With reverse Dhiimi doctrine applied , they wont survive long to attain critical level. Thinking one will understand the hoax and leave while rest will just wither away.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 11 Jan 2012 09:12

Somali (woman) Convert From Islam Whipped In Public

A Somali convert from Islam was paraded before a cheering crowd last month and publicly flogged as a punishment for embracing a “foreign religion,” sources said.

Sofia Osman, a 28-year-old Christian from Janale city in Somali’as Lower Shabelle region, had been taken into custody by Islamic extremist al Shabaab militants in November; the public whipping was meant to mark her release. She received 40 lashes on Dec. 22 while jeered by spectators.

“Osman was whipped 40 lashes at 3 p.m., but she didn’t tell what other humiliations she had suffered while in the hands of the militants,” an eyewitness, told Compass, adding that whipping left her bleeding. “I saw her faint. I thought she had died, but soon she regained consciousness and her family took her away.”

The whipping was administered in front of hundreds of spectators after Osman was released from her month-long custody in al Shabaab camps. Nursing her injuries at her family’s home, in the days after the punishment she would not talk to anyone and looked dazed, a source close in touch with the family said. She has since been relocated.

“Please pray for her quick recovery,” the source said.

Janale, one Somalia’s major cities, is about 200 kilometers (124 miles) from Mogadishu.

Osman became a Christian four years ago and was a member of the underground church in the war-torn Horn of Africa country largely controlled by the al Qaeda-linked militants from al Shabaab.

The al Shabaab militia is being hunted down by Kenya Defense Forces in southern Somalia following the extremists’ incursions into Kenya. They had killed and kidnapped tourists and aid workers inside Kenya, prompting military forces to formally enter into war to secure its borders.

In response, the al Shabaab militants have targeted churches in northern Kenyan towns such as Garissa in the hope of dividing Kenyans along religious lines. The Kenyan public, however, is largely backed the government decision to pursue the militants deep into Somalia.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Jan 2012 10:45

prahaar wrote:Is that a clip from a Hindi movie? Please tell me the name. I should start watching movies more frequently.

Kurban? Saif and Kareena

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 12 Jan 2012 05:19

Conversion from Islam to Christianity may have cost Melbourne woman her life

Melbourne woman Zahara Rahimzadegan, 46, has been missing since December 16 when she was last seen at her Ashwood home in the eastern suburbs.

Attention has focused on Zahara's Facebook account, which has had four new posts since her disappearance, most recently on New Year's Day.

[...]

Evangelical pastor Daniel Nalliah says Zahara may have been abducted by Islamic extremists angered by her religious conversion five years ago.

Her name indicates an Iranian expat.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 12 Jan 2012 09:22

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... sh/251219/
An Egyptian cleric calls on Iran and Pakistan to nuke the Jewish state: