India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jun 2011 21:05

Vic S,

I am not surprised that you have to that conclusion. Time will tell if you are right. My point being that the tea leaves state something else. But tea leaves being tea leaves much can change.

Like:

1)

shukla wrote:Dassault: India Set ‘Difficult’ Conditions on MMRCA

What a bunch of horse crap. I suggest that the MMRCA deal be scrapped completely if these yahoos want to bargain at this point in time. But, I do admire the French timing. They sure know how to get more money out of someone.

2)

saurav.jha wrote: Lockheed May Pitch F-35 to Rejoin $11 Billion India Jet Contest

Funny, is it not?

Can I get 126 F-15s by any chance? I wonder. + the dilution of those dreaded acronym-ed agreements - keep them for the Pakis I would say!!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jun 2011 21:05

I think it is not read in complete. What I understand is that in addition to ToT, EADS would offer to setup manufacturing assembly lines or parts sourced from Indian setups (5th element partner). If not, MoD is not foolish to sign up a deal having no clear statement of ToT, which I still believe is one of the criteria to clinch this deal.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jun 2011 21:08

EF is an exception.

This set of yahoos have a lion's head, a zebra's body .......... That cannot change.

At best I can see India replacing the UK in this odd partnership.

And, imagine supplying parts to KSA!!!!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Jun 2011 21:55

The Europeans (Germans, Italians, UK, Spain), they don't really want to invest that much in armaments procurement. Germany did not even have a heavy lift capability, so they had to lease some from Ukraine I believe to transport their troops to Afghanistan.

The terms of the MMRCA deal, as I have understood it, is that in time the whole production ought to be transferred to India. That ought to bring down the per unit cost of production, which means these governments themselves can afford more Eurofighters and would want to procure some too.

All sorts of industries have been outsourcing manufacturing and assembly to China to save costs. Europe could think of transferring defense production to India to save costs, especially as India would be buying as well.

Considering that USA's own defense budgets are on wane, Americans cannot underwrite Europe's security for ever. Europe would have to increase their own defense budgets, as their neighborhood becomes more dangerous - Turkey spreading its wings, Libya in turmoil, old regimes in North Africa and Levant crumbling possibly giving Al Qaida & Co. more opportunities to takeover, etc. So it is not as hunky-dory as before.

EADS has already proposed Indian participation in further R&D on the Eurofighter, which could lead to further expanded role for India in the European Military-Industrial infrastructure.

Germany would remain the engine for Europe and would always be the richer country. Japan, Germany, South Korea and Taiwan are the countries India should go all out to woo and to integrate our supply lines with these countries. They have the technology to allow India the next jump we need to catch up with China.

A defense contract of this magnitude would allow India to interface with Germany at the very core of German defense industry. More things would flow from that.

IMHO, the Eurofighter order is at the level of Treaty of Paris from 1951 when the European Coal and Steel Union was created, which led to the common European market. The Eurofighter deal would lead to our enmeshing our R&D, our industry with Europe in the long run. Much more of the defense production for Europe would shift to India when they see that they are getting better military hardware at a much cheaper rate.

Since whatever is ordered in the future, India would always be the biggest purchaser, it would be natural that EADS partner countries would give in to Indian demand to have the full production in India itself.

Just some thoughts from someone who is somewhat naive in matters military!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jun 2011 22:50

If the offer is good, why not? I would take it by replacing or throwing away existing partnership and get about 49% profit share on Ef2K if available, as offset. In the longer run, we would be at advantage from three angles - 1. future versions and sales, 2. Technology transfer. 3-Establish a strong labor force in desh that is actually participating in sales of fighter a/c competing for JSF equivalents.

A fantastic start for amca.

=========
http://typhoon.starstreak.net/Eurofight ... .html#eval
for whatever it is worth, it is still a nice table to discuss ...

Now, from my input values, the typhoon came 100%, Rafale 98%, while the f22 raptor came only at 90% fulfilling requirements matching SuMKI close to 89%.

Please share & update your thoughts from the evaluation computed results.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 20 Jun 2011 23:24

Whoopaaah!

Lockheed May Pitch F-35 to Rejoin $11 Billion India Jet Bids

The Senate report accompanying the Pentagon’s 2012 budget “opens the window to fifth-generation fighter technology release to India, however the Indian services want to deal with it,” Dewar said.

“I certainly believe it’s possible,” Dewar said when asked if the potential F-35 offer could lead to the Indian Air Force reopening the contest. India “might think differently about the competition” should the stealth jet become available.
Admitting the joint strike fighter to the bidding at this stage would be “contrary” to India’s established weapons- acquisition procedure, said Mrinal Suman, an arms-procurement adviser at the Confederation of Indian Industry in New Delhi. “It’s too late in the day,” he said. “It would be seen by many as succumbing to U.S. pressure.”

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 21 Jun 2011 01:39

Viv S wrote: I'm convinced the Mirage upgrade is a bad idea. Though I confess I'm biased because a retiring Mirage-2000 improves the Tejas' prospects. Why spend $45 million+ on upgrading an aircraft when the same figure nets you a better aircraft with a lower operating cost and at least twice the airframe life.

Very nice point Viv, we can start producing Tejas to replace Mirages instead of spending so much money on old airframes.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jun 2011 03:18

One has to look at the role LCA being played against M2K upgrade. I think they both are different, though one can find overlaps. Nevertheless, we can't create any more schedule or overhead on LCA on account of having to re-budget M2K upgrade requirements to LCA++. These two have separate needs.

The ideal way to do this, is increase the number MRCA numbers.. and get the local /third party upgrades rights from Fr, on m2ks., where -HAL/DRDO/other third party contracts like Elta could work on the upgrades.

This way, we are solving all problems and requirements.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 21 Jun 2011 03:55

Comparing Tejas and Mirages is wrong! Can Tejas deliver nuclear weapons? Is it proven? How good of a radar, EW suite does Tejas have vis a vis the proposed upgraded Mirages.. One needs to take into account "realistic" needs of the IAF of a "battle proven" aircraft for delivering the ultimate payload and the amount of risk involved in going along with that as oppose to having Tejas be the knight in shining armor. All this would be possible only after tejas has been inducted and gotten the confidence of the IAF as currently it is in its infancy as oppose to the Mirage which is well beyond mature.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 21 Jun 2011 04:45

MRCA Tender : US Firm Raytheon Locks onto India
Daily News & Analysis

MRCA Tender : US Firm Raytheon Locks onto India
Published : Monday, June 20, 2011
Place : LE BOURGET, France | Agency : PTI

Vying for a Pie in India's Planned Procurement of 126 MMRCA Fighters, US Defence Major Raytheon today said it was Eager to Supply Weapons Systems for being Integrated onto the Jets to be Selected from among Two shortlisted European companies.

Harry Schulte, Raytheon vice-president of Air Warfare Systems said the Company has a Suite of air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons systems that could be integrated on Rafale or Eurofighter, the two shortlisted plane makers by India, subject to US government approval.

"Raytheon is Prepared to Meet India's National Security needs and Support the Protection of India's Sovereign Interests with our Air-to-Air and Air-to-Surface weapons," he said at the Paris Air Show here.

India has shortlisted two European contenders, French Dassault Rafale and European Eurofighter for procuring 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in April.

He said Raytheon's Paveway Systems with Proven Track Record could be Integrated into the 126 MMRCA. Raytheon's Paveway is a Kit that Transforms "Dumb" Bombs into Precision-Guided Munitions; Paveway is currently in the Inventory of the Indian Air Force and 41 other countries.

The Paveway Family of Weapons are Platform Independent and Integrated on More than 27 Aircraft.

Noting that India was a Priority Country for Raytheon,
He also announced the Firm's Desire to Integrate the Combat-Proven Paveway Systems on India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

"Raytheon has been a Trusted Partner to India for more than Three Decades, and We Hope to Deepen this Relationship by providing the Indian Air Force the Tools it Needs to Defend India's Sovereign Interests," said Harry Schulte, Raytheon vice-president of Air Warfare Systems.

"India's Air Warriors Deserve the World's most Accurate Direct-Attack Precision Guided Munition, which is why Raytheon's Paveway is a Perfect Fit for the LCA".

Integrated on the Rafale and Eurofighter, Paveway has been extensively used in several ongoing contingency operations. Raytheon's battle-tested Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AIM-120 AMRAAM) is integrated on the Eurofighter.

Raytheon officials also indicated that subject to the approval of the US and Indian governments, Raytheon is Looking for Partnership Opportunities to Produce Critical Components of Paveway with Indian Industry.

"Raytheon has the Utmost Respect for the Capabilities of India's Defense Industry," said Peter Wray, Vice President of Business Development for Raytheon Missile Systems in India.

"If Raytheon were to Receive the Proper Authorisations and Find the Right Partner, We'd be Eager to Pursue Co-Production Opportunities".

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Jun 2011 04:50

Craig Alpert wrote:Comparing Tejas and Mirages is wrong! Can Tejas deliver nuclear weapons? Is it proven? How good of a radar, EW suite does Tejas have vis a vis the proposed upgraded Mirages.. One needs to take into account "realistic" needs of the IAF of a "battle proven" aircraft for delivering the ultimate payload and the amount of risk involved in going along with that as oppose to having Tejas be the knight in shining armor. All this would be possible only after tejas has been inducted and gotten the confidence of the IAF as currently it is in its infancy as oppose to the Mirage which is well beyond mature.

What prevents it from delivering nuclear weapons once the requisite wiring is done'? I assume we're referring to delivery via toss bombing.

I can't comment authoritatively on the radar or EW systems since actual technical specifications are confidential. The RDY-3 is rumored to have a range of 130km+, broadly speaking its in the same class as the EL/M-2032 which is believed to have a range of 150km against fighter sized targets. Both the Derby and 2032 are already in service with the IAF/IN.

With regard to rest of the Mirage upgrade - glass cockpit, HMS, new mission computers, datalinks - the Tejas features them all. Add to that twice the airframe life, considerably lower RCS and a far more efficient engine. And this is just the Mk1 we're talking about. 2014 onwards - AESA, IRST, Meteor/R-77/Astra(?), and vastly improved performance. Also the first Mk2 should be available within an year or two of the first upgraded Mirage-2000 (2013 presumably).

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 21 Jun 2011 04:53

When does the first fully capable LCA get in at squadron strength with full capabilities known? What timeline are we looking at IAF getting used to the LCA and devise tactics for the plane? Compare that to what the IAF can do with the mirage by that time with/without an upgrade.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Jun 2011 04:57

Viv S wrote: I'm convinced the Mirage upgrade is a bad idea. Though I confess I'm biased because a retiring Mirage-2000 improves the Tejas' prospects. Why spend $45 million+ on upgrading an aircraft when the same figure nets you a better aircraft with a lower operating cost and at least twice the airframe life.

Excellent point indeed ... the only thing that I can think of is that we can't get 60 odd Tejas's in 3-4 years and the depleting squadron strength is a HUGE problem. We have literally hundreds of planes to replace and increase our squadron strength simultaneously. sometimes I feel if India should bank so heavily on one company ... there is no back up plan for such critical defense equipment. Jets of all kinds, helis of all kinds, UAVs of all kinds, transport of all kinds, trainers of all kinds ... one company, with no contingency plans ... interesting indeed. Is their any other country of repute (barring Japan) which has EVERYTHING AERONAUTICAL hinged on one company?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Jun 2011 05:31

indranilroy wrote:
Viv S wrote: I'm convinced the Mirage upgrade is a bad idea. Though I confess I'm biased because a retiring Mirage-2000 improves the Tejas' prospects. Why spend $45 million+ on upgrading an aircraft when the same figure nets you a better aircraft with a lower operating cost and at least twice the airframe life.
Excellent point indeed ... the only thing that I can think of is that we can't get 60 odd Tejas's in 3-4 years and the depleting squadron strength is a HUGE problem. We have literally hundreds of planes to replace and increase our squadron strength simultaneously. I have no clue how HAL alone can handle this situation.

True enough but the upgrade will be time consuming as well. The MiG-29 upgrade for example was signed in early 2008 and the deliveries aren't expected to conclude until 2013. The Mirage upgrade isn't as deep but it'll go past 2015 as well. Also during the upgrade large parts of the fleet will be unavailable to the IAF for regular operational tasks. The IAF/MoD should be looking to scale up production to a squadron annually by 2016 and completely replace the Mirage and MiG-27 fleets by 2022 if not earlier. I believe the first batch of Mirage-2000s received by the IAF are the among the oldest units (if not the oldest units) of the type flying in service today, over 25 years old.

I do take your point about HAL though - between the Su-30MKI, Eurofighter/Rafale, Tejas, Hawk(?), Dhruv, LCH, LOH and assorted UAVs, its going to have to scale up production very rapidly. Lets hope the groundwork is already being done.

Edit: It appears the proposed upgrade is to be performed primarily at HAL.

Under the contract, the first four to six Mirages will be upgraded in France, while the rest will be retrofitted in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) with transfer of technology from the French companies.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... irage-2000

I'd much rather HAL spent that time and manpower on setting up/operating the Tejas' production line.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Jun 2011 06:11

Just been googling around, it seems Qatar was offering its fleet of 12 Mirage 2000-5s for $565 million back in 2005. That's $47 million each. They're still believed to be in the market as is the UAEAF with its 30 Mirage 2000-9s and 33 upgraded Mirage-2000Cs. Costing marginally more than the upgrade (per unit) currently on offer but coming with a whopping fifteen more years of life in the airframe than the IAF's older Mirage 2000Hs.

No wonder the proposal is being opposed within the IAF.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 21 Jun 2011 06:30

again you seem to be missing the point of why the IAF is facing critics in this deal.. MoD is playing hardball for reasons unknown or unenlightened in the previous article.

If wiring the rigs to ensure that it can deliver tactical nuke payloads was easily achievable, believe me ALL aircrafts in IAF's inventory would have been capable of delivering nukes! It's not as easy as that. A lot more happens before an air craft is declared to be able to deploy nuclear missiles.

Radar ranges for RDY 3 might be "rumored" but their capabilities as oppose to EL/M 2032 far outweighs what 2032 can offer. I can tell you that the range for EL/M 2032 is a mere 80nm making it a WVR. Apart from the range, it is a pulse Doppler radar and is severely hampered with additional capabilities (not sure if it should be discussed on an open forum). There is a reason why 2052 is not being offered. RDY-3 has slightly better capabilities (and I don't mean 10 km greater detection range!) then 2032, but it offers certain features which 2032 "can't" seem to offer. In the event 2052 happens or if IAF is successful in developing their "indigenous" aesa radar for MkII then sure, LCA mk II would be a better option, but up until LCA delivers what IAF and TDAEC in specific requires, not upgrading Mirages and having them replaced with LCA is a non starter discussion.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Jun 2011 06:36

Craig Alpert - minor nitpick. 80 nautical miles is 150 km. That is hardly WVR. Technically even 50 km is not WVR. An adversary detected at 150 km and an AAM launched at 50 km would still fall under BVR.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Jun 2011 07:24

Craig Alpert wrote:again you seem to be missing the point of why the IAF is facing critics in this deal.. MoD is playing hardball for reasons unknown or unenlightened in the previous article.

If wiring the rigs to ensure that it can deliver tactical nuke payloads was easily achievable, believe me ALL aircrafts in IAF's inventory would have been capable of delivering nukes! It's not as easy as that. A lot more happens before an air craft is declared to be able to deploy nuclear missiles.

So why is it facing critics? What missions are the IAF's Mirages capable of that the Tejas isn't?

Regarding nuclear payloads, please elaborate. What all happens before the aircraft is declared capable? I confess I see no reason why the Jaguar or MiG-27 can't be used for the same purpose, except perhaps the fact the Mirage can exit the zone faster after bomb release, and is more 'nimble' while carrying the weapon.

Edit: IIRC the French did use the Jaguar for nuclear strike.

Radar ranges for RDY 3 might be "rumored" but their capabilities as oppose to EL/M 2032 far outweighs what 2032 can offer. I can tell you that the range for EL/M 2032 is a mere 80nm making it a WVR. Apart from the range, it is a pulse Doppler radar and is severely hampered with additional capabilities (not sure if it should be discussed on an open forum). There is a reason why 2052 is not being offered. RDY-3 has slightly better capabilities (and I don't mean 10 km greater detection range!) then 2032, but it offers certain features which 2032 "can't" seem to offer. In the event 2052 happens or if IAF is successful in developing their "indigenous" aesa radar for MkII then sure, LCA mk II would be a better option, but up until LCA delivers what IAF and TDAEC in specific requires, not upgrading Mirages and having them replaced with LCA is a non starter discussion.

?? They're both pulse dopplers AFAIK. What features does the RDY offer than the EL/M-2032 doesn't? I've seen nothing unique in the brochures published by Thales; both offer TWS, IFF, DBS, SAR, GMTI/GMTT etc modes.

Measuring upto the Gripen NG would be a challenge for the Mk2, not the Mirage. Its expected to be ready by 2015, which the Mirage upgrade will push into. The choice is fairly simple - a new comfortably superior Tejas Mk2 with a delay of a year or two versus flogging 25 year old airframes for another 15-20 years without any upgrades to the airframe or engine.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 21 Jun 2011 08:49

indranilroy wrote:Is their any other country of repute (barring Japan) which has EVERYTHING AERONAUTICAL hinged on one company?

It really is a sad state of affairs, HAL is seriously overburdened and afflicted with "production creep".

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Jun 2011 08:58

If you look at the history of aviation industries globally - they started with a large number of companies and design bureaus but consolidated into large behemoths. But the difference from India is that aerospace concerns in the west are supported by a large number of technically competent and industrially advanced private industries and workshops which are currently only a few in number in India. Private companies like Shanti gears and Maini come to mind, with Mahindra and Tatas just beginning to join.

HAL cannot downsize until those units pick up the slack. Otherwise it has always been PSUs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jun 2011 09:04

wipro is also starting now on aerospace parts and has bagged its first order - from a EADS unit as posted earlier.

I am awaiting the day when the "most revered co" will get over its US fixation and foray into other fields...

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 21 Jun 2011 10:11

Tejas is expected to cost around 40 mil (?). Taking a generous estimate of the Tejas Radar and other electronics to be half the Tejas cost, we are looking at 20 mil. Given ADA's experience with these systems, getting them to work on a M2000 should not take much time. This will give a fairly capable M2000 much quicker than the 9 years Dassault is proposing. These upg M2000 will provide a fairly high tech solution in the years that MMRCA and Tejas Mk2 will materialize (as opposed to Dassault plan where upg M2000 will come when MMRCA and Tejas have started full scale induction). This will also reduce some nervousness when non-bison 21's are retired in a couple of years as some time back an IAF person said that upg M2000 will have the same impact as 4 non-upg M2000s. This solution should be cheap enough for the retirement of M2000 to start by 2020, when FGFA start showing up.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 21 Jun 2011 13:38

Paris 2011: Thales Brings Consistency to Rafale Radar

By: Bernard Fitzsimons
June 21, 2011
Military Aircraft

Thales is “five years ahead of anybody in Europe or the U.S.” in active arrays for airborne radars, according to Jean-Nöel Stock, Thales vice-president UAVs and intelligence, and a former program director for Dassault Rafale airborne systems.Speaking earlier this month at Thales Airborne Systems’ radar and mission systems facility in Pessac, Bordeaux, where he is also site director, Stock said one of the strengths of the Rafale program is that most of the electronics come from a single company. “The consistency we bring to the electronics means the pilot has a system that is fully integrated,” he said.

Thales’s contribution to the Rafale amounts to more than a quarter of the airplane’s dollar value, Stock said. It includes the RBE2 radar, frontal sector optronics, missile seekers (with MBDA), Damocles targeting pod and Spectra electronic warfare system. And all the data from the sensors is fuzed in a modular, data-processing unit before being displayed to the pilot or datalinked to friendly units.

Two weeks ago an RBE2 was in the final integration room at Pessac, awaiting delivery to France’s armaments agency, the DGA, for installation in the next Rafale to be produced by Dassault Aviation. It retained the passive array that will continue to be delivered through 2012. But sharing the room was an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar already undergoing integration ahead of installation on one of the 60 tranche 4 Rafales ordered by the DGA in 2009 for delivery from 2013.

The advantage of electronic scanning is that the radar beam is directed electronically, rather than by mechanically swiveling the antenna back and forth to scan the sky. That means the beam can be switched in microseconds from one area of the sky to another, or used for ground mapping and air surveillance at the same time by flipping between the two modes.

The current RBE2’s passive antenna uses electronic lenses consisting of arrays of diodes to direct the beam horizontally and vertically. The active array eliminates the grids; instead, the front end of the antenna is populated by hundreds of transmit/receive modules, each combining a high-power transmit amplifier, low-noise, receive amplifier and beam control.

Eliminating the grids also eliminates the power lost by the signal going back and forth, improving the radar’s detection capability. “With the active array, Rafale will have a radar with twice the performance of today’s radar,” said Stock.
Such a high level of integration is made possible by the gallium-arsenide, integrated-circuit technology on which Stock bases his claim of a five-year lead in active array radar. “It was not feasible in the ’80s or ’90s and is still not feasible for many European countries,” he said. “It is not possible to integrate at this density in a combat aircraft radar without gallium arsenide. It would produce more heat and we couldn’t accommodate it.” As it is, Thales had to develop a new liquid-cooling system for the modules.

The gallium-arsenide chips, which carry out digital processing and frequency management at the same time, are produced by United Monolithic Semiconductor, a Thales/EADS joint venture based at Orsay, south of Paris, then integrated into subassemblies by Thales Micro Electronics in Brittany before being integrated into the antenna itself at Pessac. “When Rafale is exported we will find local partners for components,” Stock said. “But we will ensure we have full control of the supply chain, right down to the printed circuit boards.”

Replacing a passive with an active array is “totally plug and play” and can be achieved in two hours, he added. Future enhancements to the radar, such as a finer aperture for ground mapping in synthetic aperture radar mode and simultaneous mode operation will be achieved through new software with no change to the hardware.
In fact, Thales said, the large number of T/R modules means some of them can fail without noticeably affecting the system’s overall reliability and performance. Their reliability is such that the active front end should not require maintenance at intervals of less than 10 years.

The same gallium-arsenide technology that is transforming the RBE2 is likely to find other applications, such as a future version of the Ocean Master 4000 maritime-surveillance radar that would retain mechanical rotation but use electronic-beam tilting. Current risk assessments are also looking at applications on the Franco-British Telemos medium altitude long endurance UAV.

http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-ne ... dar-30149/

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 21 Jun 2011 14:35

DASSAULT CEO PRESS CONFERENCE :

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/06/ ... n-ceo.html
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/06/ ... tml[b]Main points :[/b]

Lybia :

Spectra has allowed the Rafale to enter first in the Libyan airspace while the
Lybian Air defenses were still solid.
Total interroperability, excellent reliability and availability demonstrated
AASM demonstrated at a range of 57 km against a tank
All the scalps launched have hit their target

Rafale F3+ :

First deliveries in 2013
RBE-2 AESA qualification in 2012 and deliveries in 2013
Meteor planned for 2018 or earlier
Other improvements expected due to field experience : on the Canon, FBW system, introduction of concrete bombs ...

French deliveries :

180 Rafale on order
98 delivered (the 100th is flying and its delivery is expected in September)
82 planes remain to be built between now and 2018 at a rate of 11 aircrafts/year
Further deliveries for french needs should continue until about 2025

Export

Program cost increase only by 4.7% in 25 years thanks to significant optimizations to reduce production costs.
Rafale global cost would be 60% less expensive than a typhoon
Dassault Aviation CEO says he's "more than optimistic" for the Indian contest adding that the Rafale does have capabilities that the Eurofighter doesn't.
Indian offsets requierements are vey high and could be difficult to fulfill.
Dassault declined to answer the japan's RFQ/RFI because they are convinced that the Final choice will be american, no matter what. "We don't want to spend money to serve as a rabbit for the USA" said Edelstenne.
Switzerland competion re-opened with very good chances for the Rafale
9 Tonnes engine for the UAE can be offered without any problem
Brazil FX-2 competition in stand by but should start up again in 2012

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 21 Jun 2011 15:17

Lockheed may scuttle IAF's MMRCA tender with F-35 offer

When asked if he thought the Indian Air Force would re-open the contest should Lockheed's stealth candidate make an entry, Dewar replied, ''I certainly believe it's possible.''

A rough estimate has it that at $133 million per unit the cost of acquisition for the MMRCA tender would go up by 50 per cent should the IAF opt for the F-35. This would inflate the $11bn MMRCA tender to $17bn.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Jun 2011 15:46

EF partners are showing growing signs of weakness? The UK would be considered the most powerful of the group ......

RAF chief warns Libya stretching resources

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 21 Jun 2011 17:09

Ajatshatru wrote:The latest F-35 offer has little significance unless some points are clarified first, i.e. (i) Would India get priority delivery of F-35 over some other nations.... let's say, an assured delivery starting from 2014-2015 onwards (ii) Guarantee of no future sanctions (iii) Source code issue (iv) Forcing India to sign agreements like CISMOA before the deal etc.

American guarantee of no futures sanctions is like paki guarantee of no use of paki soil for terrorism.For pakis, there are non-stata actors and for americans , there are congressmen.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jun 2011 17:38

we should not even consider f35 here, and keep that as a separate fms talk if one needs to.

arthuro, that 60% less than Ef with red highlight means, you have more data on that?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 21 Jun 2011 17:43

Ajatshatru wrote:The latest F-35 offer has little significance unless some points are clarified first, i.e. (i) Would India get priority delivery of F-35 over some other nations.... let's say, an assured delivery starting from 2014-2015 onwards (ii) Guarantee of no future sanctions (iii) Source code issue (iv) Forcing India to sign agreements like CISMOA etc before the deal (v) Is the F-35 being offered the same as the one being supplied to the USAF or the export version is a much basic version, lacking some of the critical technology of the USAF's version....

In the selection process of the MMRCA, can someone please verify the fact that the Rafale was "thrown out" ( as per some reports on the internet), and then let back in. Or did the French refuse to prove the capability of the F3/F4 tranche and later relented? Or were the French testing the waters to ensure that the MMRCA tender had not be pre-decided for Khans products in keeping with our so called "common strategic interests" with Khan yada yada.

Thanks in advance if someone in the know could elucidate.

I do beleive, that the French adequately demonstrated the future capabilities, which were mentioned in the tender response, as did the EF, to the IAF's satisfaction. Which made the EF and Rafale to be judged as meeting the minimum requirements at the least, and above that of the other contenders.

As far as the F-35 coming in, any GOI tender has a cut off date, for participating. The only way, legally, it can be done is by scrapping the current RFP and coming out with an other one. Even then the Govt. would be susceptible to accusations of a 2G scam like situation. not to mention, as the CoAF had opined that others could try and scuttle the deal, post down select. I am surprised that Lockheed would even contemplate such a step of pushing themselves in, because it would set back our acquisition by a few years. Much to our disadvantage because that would prove that the only thing strategic in "common strategic interests"= Khan making sure we give him money to keep their jobs and economy afloat.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 21 Jun 2011 18:04

MMRCA may already have one assured winner

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jun 2011 19:20

Digital Color HUD for the Rafale
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/06/ ... d-for.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jun 2011 19:24

Libya, Rafale stats
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/06/ ... stats.html

• 3 months of non stop operation.
• more than 700 sorties.
• 3800 flight hours.
• 5h30 of average mission time.
• up to 28 Rafale engaged at the same time.
• several Rafale have loged more than 130 flight hours in one month (one of them has even reached 140 hours in a month).

Weapons Fired:
• 10 Scalps.
• 182 AASM bombs.
• 116 GBU.
• 300 recce sorties.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 21 Jun 2011 19:34

Rakesh wrote: • several Rafale have loged more than 130 flight hours in one month (one of them has even reached 140 hours in a month).

The French have to take their weekends off

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 21 Jun 2011 19:39

Ajatshatru wrote:The latest F-35 offer has little significance unless some points are clarified first, i.e. (i) Would India get priority delivery of F-35 over some other nations.... let's say, an assured delivery starting from 2014-2015 onwards (ii) Guarantee of no future sanctions (iii) Source code issue (iv) Forcing India to sign agreements like CISMOA etc before the deal (v) Is the F-35 being offered the same as the one being supplied to the USAF or the export version is a much basic version, lacking some of the critical technology of the USAF's version....

Indeed, you raise some good points. However, the offer is tempting - getting another Gen 5 bird even if it is by 2018, might be useful, not only in terms of the performance upgrade over gen 4/4.5 but also as a backup to delays in the Pakfa/AMCA. Even if the tech offered is not the same, it can be substituted with similar level tech from other sources thereby precluding issues such as source code. And I don't see cost as such an issue, it is not like the two ecanards are cheap. Moreover, if the USAF/USN get into it, which they will as the F16s need replacements, costs will come down, I wouldn't be surprised if it comes in cheaper than either Rafale/EF. Further, if the JSF gets a slight push via Indian orders, it might come in early. It might just work. Still, the Rafale is a rather handy bird to have - interesting development might push the Mrca further, perhaps even cancel the whole circus

In the meanwhile, India can work on getting M2k frames whereever they can find them, upgrading what is possible. Bringing up the Tejas timeline a bit would also help.

Viv S wrote:[?? They're both pulse dopplers AFAIK. What features does the RDY offer than the EL/M-2032 doesn't? I've seen nothing unique in the brochures published by Thales; both offer TWS, IFF, DBS, SAR, GMTI/GMTT etc modes.

The choice is fairly simple - a new comfortably superior Tejas Mk2 with a delay of a year or two versus flogging 25 year old airframes for another 15-20 years without any upgrades to the airframe or engine.

I would have to agree on this, focus on the Tejas is critical. An M2K with EL-2032 should not be any worse than the RDY based M2k-5, considering that antenna size, power etc should be v.similar. Afterall, the 2032 was preferred over the Apg68v9 by the Israelis.

CM

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jun 2011 01:42

SaiK wrote:we should not even consider f35 here, and keep that as a separate fms talk if one needs to.

My take is, F35 coming into the picture would be used by Desh to drive down cost of Katrina and EF2K. Else MOD / IAF would have been prompt like analysts in Pooh-Poohing the offer (like before). The last thing, MOD would do is cancel the RFP (not after cancelling so many Arty RFPs)

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 22 Jun 2011 02:10

pragnya wrote:MMRCA may already have one assured winner

From the above article,

Lakshmi Narayan Mittal, Chairman and CEO of Arcelor Mittal has been one of the independent directors of EADS since 2007.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jun 2011 02:11

cheenum wrote:My take is, F35 coming into the picture would be used by Desh to drive down cost of Katrina and EF2K. Else MOD / IAF would have been prompt like analysts in Pooh-Poohing the offer (like before). The last thing, MOD would do is cancel the RFP (not after cancelling so many Arty RFPs)

Saar, the F-35 costs more than the Eurofighter or the Rafale. Not sure how that will help in driving down the cost.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jun 2011 03:42

Rakesh wrote:Saar, the F-35 costs more than the Eurofighter or the Rafale. Not sure how that will help in driving down the cost.

Rakesh, I am aware that the per unit cost of JSF is > than EF2K and Rafale. but if MMRCA gets delayed and MOD plays these 2 players against Khan, the Euro birds might be offered to us at a lower cost to grab the business. Emphasis on the MIGHT.

raajneesh · Post by **raajneesh** » 22 Jun 2011 04:03

F-35 will make whole thing interesting but its chances are less now.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jun 2011 05:26

Dunno what is that logic? let us say, if JSF is pitted against Mig35, would Mig35 bring down the cost further to compete against JSF? This is without even understanding the need of canceling the deal 'cause khan says it should be so..

I am deeply concerned at this kind of politics... they are talking deep strategic discussion in khan public radio about becoming or investing heavy in India rather Afpak.. I do understand khan logic, but what I don't understand is babooze and sdre dhoti shiver logic, that if we ignore JSF..even when being offered at certain cower value, we shirk the great tremor of the loss of JSF.

Again, if we need JSF, we could always buy it via FMS route.. if that is the strategy we are talking, we can always do that.. khan can give to us for low interest rate loan as well... because I see a strong direction change in khan attitude.. SD is controlling state media, to all praising India in today niche discussions.