"Christian" Fundamentalism in West

[chackojoseph]

Man, you don't understand. When I was pointing to your version of there is no united India, you still hanging on to religion? You're getting very much into religion and replying from the point of religion.

I have not denied Uddu. I have studied the same CBSE books probably you would have, but, definitely millions in india have. As I said, I was targeting a lofty statement here.

And, your perception of BJP is different from what we see. We see itas an Hindu fundamentalist political arm and affiliated to The right whose ideology we don't agree. No MLA is affiliated to church. there is not political affiliation to church. You are coming out with wrong terminologies.

[Philip]

Love-a-duck,boys,"east is east and west is west,and never the twain shall meet....",said the great Rudyard. Do remember please! Let's remain concerned with the "Christian West" here!

The Pope,worried about failing Catholic numbers in Europe in particular, has just called for a new "Evangelism" on his visit to Portugal,where every Catholic should be a "missionary".How many Catholics will respond to his call is a moot point.Even in Rome,many Romans have much scorn for the Vatican,saying that they know first hand the true state of their church,which is also a state.

He constantly reminds us that cultures formerly infused with a Christian culture are desperately in need of being evangelized anew. His encouragement of the predominantly lay ecclesial movements in the Church is an indicator of the seriousness with which he views this task.

Church Exists to Evangelize! Pope Calls every Catholic to Become a Missionary
http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=40083

Pope Benedict XVI begins his message quoting the Venerable John Paul II, from his apostolic letter at the turn of the New Millennium and his encyclical letter on the permanent validity of the Churches Missionary Vocation. He then calls every member of the Church to proclaim the Gospel to everyone "with the same enthusiasm as the early Christians" explaining "the Gospel is not the exclusive property of those who received it, but it is a gift to share, good news to report. And this gift-commitment is given not only to some, but to all the baptized, who are "chosen race ... a holy people, God's own people" (1 Peter 2:9), may declare his wonderful works."

Pope Benedict reminds us all that the Church "exists to evangelize" with an urgency reminiscent of the Saint whose feast we celebrated the day this message was made public. He writes,"This task has lost none of its urgency.We cannot rest easy at the thought that, after two thousand, there are people who still do not know Christ, who have not yet heard His message of salvation."

Here he is speaking of the missionary mandate of the Church "ad gentes" , to the Nations. The Church has always taught that every single human being on the face of the earth has a right to hear the liberating Gospel message of Jesus Christ as fully revealed in the heart of His Catholic Church. However, in order to be able to engage this task, Catholic Christians need to be renewed in their own Baptismal faith through an encounter with the Risen Lord and solid catechesis in living as a Catholic Christian.

This is what is meant by the "New Evangelization". The Pope writes, " there are growing numbers of people who, though having received the Gospel announcement, have forgotten or abandoned it and no longer identify themselves in the Church; and many environments, even in traditionally Christian societies, are reluctant to open themselves to the word of faith."

Throughout his pontificate, John Paul II called for this "New Evangelization". Pope Benedict XVI has made it a pillar of his pontificate. He erected a Pontifical Council for the New Evangelization charged with re-evangelizing countries where the Gospel was announced centuries ago, but where its presence in peoples' daily life seems to be all but lost. He constantly reminds us that cultures formerly infused with a Christian culture are desperately in need of being evangelized anew. His encouragement of the predominantly lay ecclesial movements in the Church is an indicator of the seriousness with which he views this task.

When the Venerable John Paul visited the Americas he released a letter "To the Church in America" in which he wrote, "The new Evangelization calls for a clearly conceived, serious, and well organized effort to evangelize culture. The Son of God, by taking upon Himself our human nature, became incarnate within a particular people, even though His redemptive death brought redemption to all people, of every culture, race and condition. The gift of His Spirit and His love are meant for each and every people and culture, in order to bring them all into unity after the perfect unity existing in the Triune God." (Pope John Paul II, Ecclesia in America, 70)

PS:Kipling's full ballad.

OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!

[vishvak]

And, your perception of BJP is different from what we see. We see itas an Hindu fundamentalist political arm and affiliated to The right whose ideology we don't agree. No MLA is affiliated to church. there is not political affiliation to church. You are coming out with wrong terminologies.

BJP does not have Hindu fundamentalist political arm. BJP has Hindu cultural arm, affiliated to RSS.

Here is a former judge of SC, K T Thomas, on RSS speech, 'End smear campaign',a report with picture!

w.r.t. multicultural standards of India, the West could be called extremely right wing adjective1, adjective2, .., blah blah, isn't it so?

[chackojoseph]

And, your perception of BJP is different from what we see. We see itas an Hindu fundamentalist political arm and affiliated to The right whose ideology we don't agree. No MLA is affiliated to church. there is not political affiliation to church. You are coming out with wrong terminologies.

BJP does not have Hindu fundamentalist political arm. BJP has Hindu cultural arm, affiliated to RSS.

Here is a former judge of SC, K T Thomas, on RSS speech, 'End smear campaign',a report with picture!

w.r.t. multicultural standards of India, the West could be called extremely right wing adjective1, adjective2, .., blah blah, isn't it so?

I printed The same thing here much before you are passing ths link Justice K T Thomas, (Retd from Supreme Court), on RSS

Like The John Dayal guys, KT Thomas has his views. I have published his views. it dosen't mean I believe him. I have read his prespective and understood his point of view. Thats all.

BJP is controlled by RSS. nothing else. I have been pro BJP as long as they worked for national interest "as perceived by me." A lot of BR members know how pro BJP I am. It dosen't change my opinion that its not controlled by RSS.

[Philip]

Some more history of US "Christian fundamentalism",during Gulf War-2,the invasion of Iraq. Enjoy the full article in the link.It's hilarious but deadly serious stuff.It gives a graphic insight into the aims of the state using religion.JUst watch what is going to happen to the Libyans after NATO kicks out Gadhaffi.

Please watch the video clips.They're simply astonishing for the breadth and scale of the operation which is on a global scale!

http://www.republicoft.com/2008/06/03/o ... -soldiers/

Jun 03 2008
Oh, Jeebus (or “Onward, Christian Soldiers”)
What a f*cking idiot.

The US military confirmed yesterday that a marine in Fallujah passed out coins with Gospel verses on them to Sunni Muslims, a military spokesman in the Iraqi city said. The man was immediately removed from duty and reassigned.

The coins angered residents who said they felt that the American troops, whom they consider occupiers, were also acting as Christian missionaries in a predominantly Muslim nation.

“It did happen,” said Mike Isho, a spokesman for Multi-National Force West. “It’s one guy and we’re investigating.”

The marine was passing out silver coins to residents of the Sunni Anbar province with Arabic translations of Bible verses on them. On one side, the coin read, “Where will you spend eternity?” and on the other, “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16″.

Following a McClatchy newspaper report about the proselytising coins, a force was sent to the western gate of Fallujah and the Marines there were searched, Isho said. One man was found with the coins, removed from the gate and will no longer be working in predominantly Sunni Anbar province, he said.

Yesterday, the US military apologised for the incident, telling McClatchy special correspondent Jamal Naji that action would be taken following an investigation.

Would that he were the only one.


But he’s not.

As the war in Iraq moves into its next phase, Christian missionaries are moving forward with their own battle plans: to distribute humanitarian aid and spread the gospel to the region’s Muslims. TIME’s Broward Liston spoke with Albert Mohler, the boyish president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and reigning intellectual of the evangelical movement in the U.S., about the challenges facing missionaries venturing into potentially hostile territory:

To many, the image of American missionaries lining the Iraq- Jordan border, preparing to distribute food, clothing, tents and medical supplies as soon as the shooting dies down, looks eerily like a second invasion. Or at least a profoundly destabilizing force, an army prepared to act on the inflammatory words lobbed between evangelical Christian ministers and anti-American Muslim clerics.

That’s a false impression, says Albert Mohler. The missionaries, he says, whose aim is partly humanitarian, see themselves as part of a tradition dating back 2000 years, to the mission that brought Jesus to Jerusalem. It was a journey that provoked unrest, frightened authority and led Christ to the cross, but ultimately, Christians believe, delivered a life-saving message to the world.

(And, yes, this is the same Albert Mohler who had some interesting ideas about preventing homosexuality in the womb.)

And so it goes. And so more missionaries go to Iraq.

Fears are growing that the presence in Iraq of foreign Christians will increase the risk of violence against foreigners and local Christians alike. Paul McGeough reports from Baghdad.

After the declaration of “a war for souls” by US Christians, the arrival in Iraq of missionaries with almost a million Arabic translations of the Bible has become a new security flashpoint.

Non-religious aid workers accuse the missionaries of exposing all foreigners to more attacks because of the risk of inflaming Muslim sensitivities.

After the murder last week of four US missionaries at Mosul, in the north, an American church worker refused to talk to The Age, because the reporting of any identifying information could make him and his church a target. “You guys (reporters) are spotters for snipers,” he said.

A spate of deadly attacks on foreigners has left US occupation officials in Iraq confused as to whether the four were targeted because they were foreigners or because they were missionaries.

But they have taken the precaution of removing a list of about 50 Christian aid groups from public files in Baghdad.

…But when a US Christian website reported the death of the missionaries in Mosul, it left a question mark on such claims, stating: “As a tactic in such sensitive areas, missionaries engage in ‘good works’, reaching out through humanitarian efforts, and sharing their faith with appreciative and curious locals only when asked about it.”

The unguarded rhetoric and pumped-up claims on these sites are seen by some Iraqis as proof the invasion of their country was part of a US war against Islam.

And why shouldn’t they? We’ve had generals who’ve declared just such a war.

Lt. Gen. William G. “Jerry” Boykin, the new deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence, is a much-decorated and twice-wounded veteran of covert military operations. From the bloody 1993 clash with Muslim warlords in Somalia chronicled in “Black Hawk Down” and the hunt for Colombian drug czar Pablo Escobar to the ill-fated attempt to rescue American hostages in Iran in 1980, Boykin was in the thick of things.

Yet the former commander and 13-year veteran of the Army’s top-secret Delta Force is also an outspoken evangelical Christian who appeared in dress uniform and polished jump boots before a religious group in Oregon in June to declare that radical Islamists hated the United States “because we’re a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian … and the enemy is a guy named Satan.”

Discussing the battle against a Muslim warlord in Somalia, Boykin told another audience, “I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol.”

“We in the army of God, in the house of God, kingdom of God have been raised for such a time as this,” Boykin said last year.

On at least one occasion, in Sandy, Ore., in June, Boykin said of President Bush: “He’s in the White House because God put him there.”

Besides, they might remember what some American missionaries tried to do after the tsunami.


A Virginia-based missionary group said this week that it has airlifted 300 “tsunami orphans” from the Muslim province of Banda Aceh to Jakarta, the Indonesian capital, where it plans to raise them in a Christian children’s home.

The missionary group, WorldHelp, is one of dozens of Christian, Muslim and Jewish charities providing humanitarian relief to victims of the Dec. 26 earthquake and tsunami that devastated countries around the Indian Ocean, taking more than 150,000 lives.

Most of the religious charities do not attach any conditions to their aid, and many of the larger ones — such as WorldVision, Catholic Relief Services and Church World Service — have policies against proselytizing. But a few of the smaller groups have been raising money among evangelical Christians by presenting the tsunami emergency effort as a rare opportunity to make converts in hard-to-reach areas.

“Normally, Banda Aceh is closed to foreigners and closed to the gospel. But, because of this catastrophe, our partners there are earning the right to be heard and providing entrance for the gospel,” WorldHelp said in an appeal for funds on its Web site this week.

The appeal said WorldHelp was working with native-born Christians in Indonesia who want to “plant Christian principles as early as possible” in the 300 Muslim children, all younger than 12, who lost their parents in the tsunami.

“These children are homeless, destitute, traumatized, orphaned, with nowhere to go, nowhere to sleep and nothing to eat. If we can place them in a Christian children’s home, their faith in Christ could become the foothold to reach the Aceh people,” it said.

That statement came down, after the Washington Post reported on the story, and once exposed the missionaries changed their plans.

[brihaspati]

Man, you don't understand. When I was pointing to your version of there is no united India, you still hanging on to religion? You're getting very much into religion and replying from the point of religion.

I have not denied Uddu. I have studied the same CBSE books probably you would have, but, definitely millions in india have. As I said, I was targeting a lofty statement here.

And, your perception of BJP is different from what we see. We see itas an Hindu fundamentalist political arm and affiliated to The right whose ideology we don't agree. No MLA is affiliated to church. there is not political affiliation to church. You are coming out with wrong terminologies.

We see the congrez as an anti-Hindu pro-Christian and pro-Islam fundamentalist political arm affiliated to the Left whose ideology we don't agree [with]. There are congrez MLA's affiliated to the church. Church members and spokespersons have repeatedly declared their right to shape politics. You are coming out with wrong terminologies.

Can you please take this most interesting Christian propaganda about India to some India specific thread please? We can have a juicy time there!

I see a peculiar reaction from posts that seem to come from a sympathetic viewpoint about christianity - that they immediately turn to criticizing this or that aspect of India and Hindu. There is no need to be so defensive about Christianity. You can defend Christianity from the experiences of "west" or is it that you realize that its record everywhere is so indefensible that the only defense is a pre-emptive attack on the pet hates of India - Hindu - BJP? We can discuss that - but not in this thread.

[chackojoseph]

We see the congrez as an anti-Hindu pro-Christian and pro-Islam fundamentalist political arm affiliated to the Left whose ideology we don't agree [with]. There are congrez MLA's affiliated to the church. Church members and spokespersons have repeatedly declared their right to shape politics. You are coming out with wrong terminologies.

Can you please take this most interesting Christian propaganda about India to some India specific thread please? We can have a juicy time there!

I see a peculiar reaction from posts that seem to come from a sympathetic viewpoint about christianity - that they immediately turn to criticizing this or that aspect of India and Hindu. There is no need to be so defensive about Christianity. You can defend Christianity from the experiences of "west" or is it that you realize that its record everywhere is so indefensible that the only defense is a pre-emptive attack on the pet hates of India - Hindu - BJP? We can discuss that - but not in this thread.

Can you prove your points?

Who is this "we"? Can you prove affiliation to church and name the MLA. Tell me which thread you can discuss this with? I am really interested.

[chetak]

We see the congrez as an anti-Hindu pro-Christian and pro-Islam fundamentalist political arm affiliated to the Left whose ideology we don't agree [with]. There are congrez MLA's affiliated to the church. Church members and spokespersons have repeatedly declared their right to shape politics. You are coming out with wrong terminologies.

Can you please take this most interesting Christian propaganda about India to some India specific thread please? We can have a juicy time there!

I see a peculiar reaction from posts that seem to come from a sympathetic viewpoint about christianity - that they immediately turn to criticizing this or that aspect of India and Hindu. There is no need to be so defensive about Christianity. You can defend Christianity from the experiences of "west" or is it that you realize that its record everywhere is so indefensible that the only defense is a pre-emptive attack on the pet hates of India - Hindu - BJP? We can discuss that - but not in this thread.

Can you prove your points?

Who is this "we"? Can you prove affiliation to church and name the MLA. Tell me which thread you can discuss this with? I am really interested.

No need to be so defensive, saar.

A lot of keralite Xtian MLAs and MPs have this direct affiliation to the church, otherwise no ticket onlee.

Look at how YSR and his brood set about giving subsidised passage for the faithful to jerusalem.

No admission to a xtian run "secular" institution unless you bribe the padre. Such bribes openly demanded for poor box or building fund or whatever.

In cochin for instance, who can contest from which constituency is controlled. In kerala, without the blessings of the powers that be, nobody but nobody, can aspire to the post of CM.

Voting instructions are openly given in church meetings to vote for specific candidates.

Do you really mean to tell me that so many useless xtian politicos are on the national scene, cabinet, planning commission, govt etc because of their intellectual brilliance??

Who is responsible for concentrating so much of power in the hands of a small minority community not particularly renowned for their intellectual or academic accomplishments, rani or the vatican through rani??

You tell me, saar.

[vishvak]

http://www.republicoft.com/2008/06/03/o ... -soldiers/

Lt. Gen. William G. “Jerry” Boykin, the new deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence, is a much-decorated and twice-wounded veteran of covert military operations. From the bloody 1993 clash with Muslim warlords in Somalia chronicled in “Black Hawk Down” and the hunt for Colombian drug czar Pablo Escobar to the ill-fated attempt to rescue American hostages in Iran in 1980, Boykin was in the thick of things.

Yet the former commander and 13-year veteran of the Army’s top-secret Delta Force is also an outspoken evangelical Christian who appeared in dress uniform and polished jump boots before a religious group in Oregon in June to declare that radical Islamists hated the United States “because we’re a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian … and the enemy is a guy named Satan.”

Discussing the battle against a Muslim warlord in Somalia, Boykin told another audience, “I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol.”

“We in the army of God, in the house of God, kingdom of God have been raised for such a time as this,” Boykin said last year.

On at least one occasion, in Sandy, Ore., in June, Boykin said of President Bush: “He’s in the White House because God put him there.”

Isn't that guy extremely right wing, _adjectives here_, etc. etc.?

Or by standards of USA he could be left wing or normal chap.

Say, how would an average Joe react if a Hindu knocks on the door and offers Gita as 'true path onlee' nomenclature, or even an idol of Shiva with a serpent around his neck and even a Shiva with Parvati.

Compare it to behavior of pagans/heathens of the third world country like India.

Says so much about professionalism of U.S. Army’s top-secret Delta Force, and the of the evangelists.

[rajanb]

All I can say, and I don't flaunt my religion, is that it has no place in politics.

It is being used as an emotional string either to gain power or protect one's constituency! Along with caste and linguism.

The mantra should be "We are Indians first and Indians last"

It shows how bankrupt our polity is, using religion as a crutch to power, rather than the ability to govern.

As an Indian, I love all Indians. Regardless of religion, caste and creed. And I don't want to know a person's religion. One's religion is a private affair.

Just look at Pakistan. A failure built on religion!

And each religion has its share of rascals.

So chill guys.

My 2 cents.

[chackojoseph]

No need to be so defensive, saar.

A lot of keralite Xtian MLAs and MPs have this direct affiliation to the church, otherwise no ticket onlee.

Look at how YSR and his brood set about giving subsidised passage for the faithful to jerusalem.

No admission to a xtian run "secular" institution unless you bribe the padre. Such bribes openly demanded for poor box or building fund or whatever.

In cochin for instance, who can contest from which constituency is controlled. In kerala, without the blessings of the powers that be, nobody but nobody, can aspire to the post of CM.

Voting instructions are openly given in church meetings to vote for specific candidates.

Do you really mean to tell me that so many useless xtian politicos are on the national scene, cabinet, planning commission, govt etc because of their intellectual brilliance??

Who is responsible for concentrating so much of power in the hands of a small minority community not particularly renowned for their intellectual or academic accomplishments, rani or the vatican through rani??

You tell me, saar.

As usual, all hot air , no substance. Can't prove an affiliation. It dosen't exist. In Kerala there is definite tilt to Congress because of the Communist threat, which I have already told in the Anna hazare thread. Hindus make 57% of the Kerala population and still cannot form a party that is Hindu affiliated. Christians form just 19%. Same scene nationally, where the population is 80%. Christians are jut 2.3%.

Some names in the cabinet Aryadan Mohammed, Thiruvanchoor Radhakrishnan, Adoor Prakash, K.C. Joseph, A.P. Anil Kumar, C.N. Balakrishnan, K. Babu, V.S. Sivakumar, and K.P. Jayalakshmi. Just 1 christian.

[vishvak]

As usual, all hot air , no substance. Can't prove an affiliation. It dosen't exist. In Kerala there is definite tilt to Congress because of the Communist threat, which I have already told in the Anna hazare thread. Hindus make 57% of the Kerala population and still cannot form a party that is Hindu affiliated. Christians form just 19%. Same scene nationally, where the population is 80%. Christians are jut 2.3%.

Some names in the cabinet Aryadan Mohammed, Thiruvanchoor Radhakrishnan, Adoor Prakash, K.C. Joseph, A.P. Anil Kumar, C.N. Balakrishnan, K. Babu, V.S. Sivakumar, and K.P. Jayalakshmi. Just 1 christian.

Sir,

What is meant by a party that is Hindu affiliated

in a country called India that

"forms a mix of multi enthic, multi cultural, multi religion etc. It was brought toghter by political entity and not religious. It came under the constitution of India. The idea of Indian state unified India"?

What is a Christian affiliated party?

[chackojoseph]

What is a Christian affiliated party?

Ask the folks who have coined the term Christian affiliated Politicians.

[sanjaykumar]

I see a peculiar reaction from posts that seem to come from a sympathetic viewpoint about christianity - that they immediately turn to criticizing this or that aspect of India and Hindu. There is no need to be so defensive about Christianity. You can defend Christianity from the experiences of "west" or is it that you realize that its record everywhere is so indefensible that the only defense is a pre-emptive attack on the pet hates of India - Hindu - BJP?


One must realise the paradigm of Judeo-Christian theology is punishment. God as punisher. I don't think there is anything in the Asian experience that can prepare the Hindu mind for this primal fear. God's regents on earth legitimately carry out judgments as he would. A favourite of the European Inquistors was the iron mask-any free enquiry could be rewarded with a metal mask placed over the head which was then heated. When the mask was removed, the eyes would often peel off with it.

Obviously such a cultural history can be inhibitory to free expression. This is why one must admire Western Europe, they have come far. I don't think Hindus can appreciate the extent of their intellectual defiance.

[Theo_Fidel]

One must realise the paradigm of Judeo-Christian theology is punishment. God as punisher.

This is not correct. The real paradigm is that you are born in sin, you live in sin and die in sin. God is the only one who can save you from your sins.

This world is corrupted and unlovable. Its destruction would be good riddance and is long overdue. Key word is nonredeemable. The next world will be cleansed of sin and perfect.

Anytime Hindu's discuss Chritian stuff the urge to drag in Hindu thought is quite fierce. Same occurs when Christians attempt to discuss Hindu thought.

[sanjaykumar]

I don't have a problem with dragging in Hindu stuff. I cannot justify untouchability and if that disqualifies the legitimacy of Hinduism, so be it. You see, we have been enlightened by missionaries about the darkness in our lives-the Hindus are only starting to return the favour.

Of course everything is economics-you can imagine the education to be had when India has a $10 trillion economy.

[RajeshA]

How about keeping India off-limits in this discussion. Then everybody can profit from this discussion.

[devesh]

We see the congrez as an anti-Hindu pro-Christian and pro-Islam fundamentalist political arm affiliated to the Left whose ideology we don't agree [with]. There are congrez MLA's affiliated to the church. Church members and spokespersons have repeatedly declared their right to shape politics. You are coming out with wrong terminologies.

Can you please take this most interesting Christian propaganda about India to some India specific thread please? We can have a juicy time there!

I see a peculiar reaction from posts that seem to come from a sympathetic viewpoint about christianity - that they immediately turn to criticizing this or that aspect of India and Hindu. There is no need to be so defensive about Christianity. You can defend Christianity from the experiences of "west" or is it that you realize that its record everywhere is so indefensible that the only defense is a pre-emptive attack on the pet hates of India - Hindu - BJP? We can discuss that - but not in this thread.

Can you prove your points?

Who is this "we"? Can you prove affiliation to church and name the MLA. Tell me which thread you can discuss this with? I am really interested.

can you prove your point that RSS "controls" BJP? what is your definition of "Hindu Fundamentalist"?

your "alleged" comment is an uber example of Marxist negationism. seriously, now, India was "allegedly" Hindu before British rule or during or after???? so, if invaders crush us militarily and rule over us, then automatically, the "religion" of the majority of the inhabitants native to the land no longer represents the "nature" of the land?!?!?!

an important question: this standard is applied to WASP's in America b/c it conveniently negates the existence of natives before their arrival. it's interesting that some are propagating the same views about India. so, that is the mode of operation now: negate long standing history b/c of military defeats and foreign rule.....interesting.

as for Church affiliation of politicians, with all due respect and bluntness, have you been in a blissful sleep these past few years.

do a Google search on "YS Jagan Headquarters". the images should be very illustrative of the EJ proselytizing instinct and aggressive political assertion.

check this out:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OZUJOb9juRA/T ... e+copy.jpg

[Virupaksha]

going off topic guyz...

West doesnt include India, however extendable and chewable that term is.

[devesh]

sir ji,

if there are forumers negating our own history, then we have a responsibility to negate those hideous "arguments". the title of the thread is not pertinent, when we have blatant Marxist negationism going on.

[Manish_Sharma]

Can you prove your points?

Who is this "we"? Can you prove affiliation to church and name the MLA. Tell me which thread you can discuss this with? I am really interested.

Nice supply from Francois Gautier:

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0706/32.html

Yet, I am a little uneasy when I see how much Christianity is taking over India under the reign of Sonia Gandhi : according to a 2001 census, there are about 2.34 million Christians in India ; not even 2,5% of the nation, a negligible amount. Yet there are today five Christian chief ministers in Nagaland, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Kerala and Andhra Pradesh.
One should add that the majority of politicians in Sonia Gandhi's closed circle are either Christians or Muslims. She seems to have no confidence in Hindus.Ambika Soni, a Christian, is General Secretary of the Congress and a very powerful person, with close access to Sonia Gandhi. Oscar Fernandes is Union Programme Implementation Minister. Margaret Alwa is the eminence grise of Maharasthra. Karnataka is virtually controlled by AK Anthony, whose secretaries are all from the Southern Christian association. Valson Thampu, a Hindu hater, is Chairman NCERT curriculum Review Committee, John Dayal, another known Hindu baiter, has been named by Sonia Gandhi in the National Integration Council ; and Kancha Ilaya, who hates Hindus, is being allowed by the Indian Government to lobby with the UN and US Congress so that caste discrimination in India is taken-up by these bodies.

I have nothing personnally against Sonia Gandhi, in fact she probably is a good person to win the alliegance of so many and certainly a loving mother . I share with her a love for India, like her I have lived in this country for over 30 years and like her I have married an Indian. But nevertheless, since she is at the top, Christian conversions in India seem to have gone in overdrive. More than 4,000 foreign Christian missionaries are involved in conversion activities across different states. In Tripura, there were no Christians at independence, there are 120.000 today, a 90% increase since 1991. The figures are even more striking in Arunachal Pradesh, where there were only 1710 Christians in 1961, but 1,2 million today, as well as 780 churches! In Andhra Pradesh, churches are coming-up every day in far flung villages and there was even an attempt to set-up one near Tirupati. Many of the North-East separatist movements, such as the Mizo or the Bodos, are not only Christian dominated, but also sometimes function with the covert backing of the missionaries. In Kerala, particularly in the poor coastal districts, you find "miracle boxes" put in local churches: the gullible villager writes out a paper mentionning his wish: a fising boat, a loan for a pukka house, fees for the son's schooling… And lo, a few weeks later, the miracle happens ! And of course the whole family converts, making others in the village follow suit. During the Tsunami, entire dalit villages in Tamil Nadu were converted to Christianity with the lure of money.

It is true that there have been a few backlashes against missionnaries and nuns, particularly the gruesome muder of Staines and his two sons. But Belgium historian Konenraad Elst laments that " When over a thousand Hindus are killed and a quarter million Hindus ethnically cleansed in Kashmir, the world media doesn't even notice, but watch the worldwide hue and cry when a few local riots take place and a few missionaries are killed by unidentified tribal miscreants. Christian Naga terrorists have been killing non-Christians for decades on end, and this has never been an issue with the world media, except to bewail the "oppression" of the Nagas by "Hindu India" ". More than 20,000 people have lost their lives to insurgency in Assam and Manipur in the past two decades. As recently as last week, four paramilitary Assam Rifles soldiers were killed in an ambush yesterday by the outlawed United National Liberation Front (UNLF).

The other day I was at the Madras Medical center, the foremost heart hospital in Madras. Right when you enter the lobby, you find a chapel, inviting everybody to pray, there are pictures and quotations of Christ everywhere and a priest visits all the patients, without being invited at all. Educational institutes and orphanages run by Christian organisations have become big business in Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh and other states. In Pondichery, where I am often, schools run by Adventists force their pupils, mostly Hindus, to say Christian prayers every day and attend mass. They are constantly fed anti Hindu slogans and biases under different forms, whether it is in history books, or discourses by priests during religious classes. Even in the elite schools or colleges, such as Saint Stephen in Delhi, Saint Xavier in Calcutta or Loyola college in Madras, where no direct proletization is attempted, Hindu pupils are subtly encouraged towards skepticism of their own religion, and admiration of whatever is Western. One should also say that it's a one way traffic : remember the furor when MM Joshi wanted the Saraswati hymn to be sung at a Chief Ministers' meet on education ? And imagine the uproar in secular India if portions of the Bhagavad Gita, this Bible for all humanity, were read at the beginning of the day in public schools ?

Sonia Gandhi said during the last National Integration Council meeting : " We are committed to ideological battle against communal forces which seek to destroy our diversity and polarise us. Certain parties promote polarisation and confrontation. And there are certain regimes in India which promote communalism ". But is not actually the Congress under Mrs Gandhi, which is promoting communalism, by insidiously installing Christians and Muslims (and Marxists) everywhere, propping up Christian states, allowing a free hand too missionnaries and pressing for reservations for Christian Dalits and Muslims, as recently done in AP, in a nation of 850 million Hindus ?

In my country, France, a Christian majority nation , it would be unthinkable to have Hindus - or even Indian born French for that matter - in so many positions of power. Impossible also to find a non-elected, non French, non-Christian person being the absolute ruler of the country behind the scene as Sonia Gandhi is in India. Indians like to say that the greatness of India is that it accepts a foreigner and a Christian like Sonia Gandhi. But is'nt it rather a weakness, and an aberration ? Can't we find a worthy leader amongst one billion Indians ? This is an India where you see today Swami Avimukteshwarananda Saraswati of Dwarka Peeth, made to disembark from an Indian Airlines flight for carrying his holy dand, a thin bamboo stick which is a symbol of their spiritual designation, inside the aircraft cabin.

Are we heading then towards a Christian India under Sonia Gandhi's helm? It would be a tremendous loss not only to India, but also to the world. For in India, you find the only living spirituality left on this planet.

Besides little matter of all the collections from temples being used to create 258 churces in AP and funding the yerushalem pilgrimage. Or a christian priest in the management of Tirupathi Balaji Hmmmmmmm!

[sanjaykumar]

Perhaps all Indians deserve to be Christians.

[joshvajohn]

Those who tend to criticise a particular religion or concept severely so much and try to destroy it or correct it are those who become converts of the same religions or doctrines that they criticise severely. These new converts often become so vigorous to tell other about their conversion and enthusiasm about their new religions and try to convert others to this new religion or concept. For those who are born into these religions do not have that much enthusiasm as they know strengths and weakness of their own religion being within and often realise their religion is not that much ideal as it proclaims so they do not have that much enthusiasm as the new converts do. I know that some RSS leaders became Christians and heard their conversion stories. It is also funny that some Christians liked to hear them in public such simplistic faith stories even though they know that their own version of Christianity is not that ideal enough. Even the athiest EV Ramaswamy Periyar's son and the former RSS deputy GS's son and so on and so forth have become Christian converts and proclaim the ideal versions of Christianity to others. Such over enthusiasm creates an interest but it also creates difficulty and hypocracy.
I have heard similar versions from some converted Muslims from other religions in the West. I have heard the same stories among some Christian o became whfollowers of Sathya Sai and of Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. So this is not something peculiar to one religion. Those who try to make claims of their own religions as superior to others have inferiority complex problems. Very often these new converts do not know or understand their new versions of the religions and so what they proclaim or probagate is something that is only surface level religion. If they go and study deeper of this new religious experience and strengths and weakness of the new religions then they will not sharply criticise their old religion and concepts as they may find a lot of convergence and common concerns. My argument if one is deeply involved in one's own tradition and faith, one will develop respect for the other and learn to appreciate those of others. For those who do not know their own and are not deeply rooted their own tradition and faith often criticise others and tend to find fault with others and at times end up accepting what they had criticised as their own.

[sanjaykumar]

Street religions need to be kept simple. Christianity in India is infantile.

The soul harvesters have a window of perhaps 10 years whilst their harvest remains superstitious, illiterate and impoverished, diseased, fatalistic, and rejected by mainstream Hindus. I see India at where Japan was circa 1860 ie pre-Meiji reformation. Of course there is a sophisticated hyper literate India, but I don't think that is the target market for semiliterate Indian missionaries or Western ones for that matter. If you can spell emanicipation-you need not apply.

[ramana]

sir ji,

if there are forumers negating our own history, then we have a responsibility to negate those hideous "arguments". the title of the thread is not pertinent, when we have blatant Marxist negationism going on.

Please do that in another thread for this loses theread focus.

Thanks,

ramana

[Pranav]

sir ji,

if there are forumers negating our own history, then we have a responsibility to negate those hideous "arguments". the title of the thread is not pertinent, when we have blatant Marxist negationism going on.

Please do that in another thread for this loses theread focus.

Thanks,

ramana

How about a thread called "Political Christianity in India" or "Strategic Analysis of Political Christianity in India"? But must be careful to focus on ideology, organizational policies and politics, rather than generalizing about individuals.

But I have a problem with compartmentalizing it from Strategic Analysis of Political Christianity in the West. Our understanding of Indian Christianity would be hobbled without an understanding of organizations like World Vision or an analysis of the Southern Baptist Church, which are western organizations operating in India. Also, many of the issues that arise in the context of India also apply to places like Africa or Sri Lanka. I think what is really needed is to change to title of this thread to "Analysis of Political Christianity Worldwide".

[sanjaykumar]

Oh dear. I guess I can't spell emancipation either.

[uddu]

Chacko, you come from God's own country and you don't know what happens in your own state.
http://www.livemint.com/2007/07/3020214 ... -Kera.html
You can say it's allowed in the constitution etc, but is this democracy? Is this secularism?
Except I will call this pure fundamentalism and religious fanaticism for the sake of making money utilizing religion as a tool. And you try to say that Congress has only one MLA as minister who is a Christian.
I will point out that your views regarding secularism itself is flawed.
Your view is that secularism means representing all religions. For me secularism is about keeping the state and religion separate. Also faith being regulated to one's personal views. He/she to go to religious places and pray to god or not to believe in god. To have good conduct with god or without god. Beyond that religion is all about politics and money making.

[Manny]

See the influence of Southern Baptist evangelicals in Uganda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjnrLt3VuSM

Eat da Poo Poo!

[brihaspati]

Those who tend to criticise a particular religion or concept severely so much and try to destroy it or correct it are those who become converts of the same religions or doctrines that they criticise severely. These new converts often become so vigorous to tell other about their conversion and enthusiasm about their new religions and try to convert others to this new religion or concept. For those who are born into these religions do not have that much enthusiasm as they know strengths and weakness of their own religion being within and often realise their religion is not that much ideal as it proclaims so they do not have that much enthusiasm as the new converts do. I know that some RSS leaders became Christians and heard their conversion stories. It is also funny that some Christians liked to hear them in public such simplistic faith stories even though they know that their own version of Christianity is not that ideal enough. Even the athiest EV Ramaswamy Periyar's son and the former RSS deputy GS's son and so on and so forth have become Christian converts and proclaim the ideal versions of Christianity to others. Such over enthusiasm creates an interest but it also creates difficulty and hypocracy.
I have heard similar versions from some converted Muslims from other religions in the West. I have heard the same stories among some Christian o became whfollowers of Sathya Sai and of Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. So this is not something peculiar to one religion. Those who try to make claims of their own religions as superior to others have inferiority complex problems. Very often these new converts do not know or understand their new versions of the religions and so what they proclaim or probagate is something that is only surface level religion. If they go and study deeper of this new religious experience and strengths and weakness of the new religions then they will not sharply criticise their old religion and concepts as they may find a lot of convergence and common concerns. My argument if one is deeply involved in one's own tradition and faith, one will develop respect for the other and learn to appreciate those of others. For those who do not know their own and are not deeply rooted their own tradition and faith often criticise others and tend to find fault with others and at times end up accepting what they had criticised as their own.

Criticism can come from being deeply aware of one's own roots too and being aware of the roots of that being criticized. Anyway, the thread topic started with Christian fundamentalism in the west. I know that I argued that fundamentalism was inevitable and organic in the way Christianity developed. But that was analysis and not criticism. I tried to refrain from passing any value judgments.

We are somehow repeatedly being drawn into India-Hindu-BJP bashing which is not really relevant either as a defense or justification of the Christian record. We are not here to condemn "fundamentalism" or "Christianity" on this thread but to try to understand the process by which "fundamentalism" developed in Christianity and in the west. It appears that exploring the historical record of the evolution of that fundamentalism prompts the urge to do various equal equals and do a "Hindu-BJP" bashing and coming into India. Even that bringing in of India is not for the purpose I once mentioned - Indian philosophies as a religio-psychological root recognized as a competing problem by early Church leaders, and a component of the perceptual dynamic that contributed to the fundamentalism in Christianity in its very foundation. [the early demonization of India, "brahmanas" and their philosophies in pre-Nicean Christianity and its persistence in European evolution of the "demoniacal other" through the medieval period].


But the bringing in is to do equal equals. Does not help in understanding the main phenomenon supposed to be the focus of this thread.

[devesh]

check this video out. check out their views on Statue of Liberty, Japanese society, Israel, etc.

[devesh]

we are watching America's descent into state sponsored theology. one thing though is that demography is not on the side of EJ's. they don't have a lot of time if they want to consolidate their hold on America. I suspect a rapid transformation of the American Presidency under someone like Perry or Bachmann.


cross posted from "worldwide political analysis" thread:
posted by Pranav.

A Christian Plot for Domination?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... print.html

Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry aren't just devout—both have deep ties to a fringe fundamentalist movement known as Dominionism, which says Christians should rule the world.

by Michelle Goldberg | August 14, 2011 10:51 PM EDT

With Tim Pawlenty out of the presidential race, it is now fairly clear that the GOP candidate will either be Mitt Romney or someone who makes George W. Bush look like Tom Paine. Of the three most plausible candidates for the Republican nomination, two are deeply associated with a theocratic strain of Christian fundamentalism known as Dominionism. If you want to understand Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry, understanding Dominionism isn’t optional.

Put simply, Dominionism means that Christians have a God-given right to rule all earthly institutions. Originating among some of America’s most radical theocrats, it’s long had an influence on religious-right education and political organizing. But because it seems so outré, getting ordinary people to take it seriously can be difficult. Most writers, myself included, who explore it have been called paranoid. In a contemptuous 2006 First Things review of several books, including Kevin Phillips’ American Theocracy, and my own Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism, conservative columnist Ross Douthat wrote, “the fear of theocracy has become a defining panic of the Bush era.”

Now, however, we have the most theocratic Republican field in American history, and suddenly, the concept of Dominionism is reaching mainstream audiences. Writing about Bachmann in The New Yorker this month, Ryan Lizza spent several paragraphs explaining how the premise fit into the Minnesota congresswoman’s intellectual and theological development. And a recent Texas Observer cover story on Rick Perry examined his relationship with the New Apostolic Reformation, a Dominionist variant of Pentecostalism that coalesced about a decade ago. “[W]hat makes the New Apostolic Reformation movement so potent is its growing fascination with infiltrating politics and government,” wrote Forrest Wilder. Its members “believe Christians—certain Christians—are destined to not just take ‘dominion’ over government, but stealthily climb to the commanding heights of what they term the ‘Seven Mountains’ of society, including the media and the arts and entertainment world.”

In many ways, Dominionism is more a political phenomenon than a theological one. It cuts across Christian denominations, from stern, austere sects to the signs-and-wonders culture of modern megachurches. Think of it like political Islamism, which shapes the activism of a number of antagonistic fundamentalist movements, from Sunni Wahabis in the Arab world to Shiite fundamentalists in Iran.

Dominionism derives from a small fringe sect called Christian Reconstructionism, founded by a Calvinist theologian named R. J. Rushdoony in the 1960s. Christian Reconstructionism openly advocates replacing American law with the strictures of the Old Testament, replete with the death penalty for homosexuality, abortion, and even apostasy. The appeal of Christian Reconstructionism is, obviously, limited, and mainstream Christian right figures like Ralph Reed have denounced it.

[shyam]

An explanation of Indian National Flag by a church group in Kerala. Non-mallus, please ask your mallu friend to translate this.

[chackojoseph]

Chacko, you come from God's own country and you don't know what happens in your own state.
http://www.livemint.com/2007/07/3020214 ... -Kera.html
You can say it's allowed in the constitution etc, but is this democracy? Is this secularism?
Except I will call this pure fundamentalism and religious fanaticism for the sake of making money utilizing religion as a tool. And you try to say that Congress has only one MLA as minister who is a Christian.
I will point out that your views regarding secularism itself is flawed.
Your view is that secularism means representing all religions. For me secularism is about keeping the state and religion separate. Also faith being regulated to one's personal views. He/she to go to religious places and pray to god or not to believe in god. To have good conduct with god or without god. Beyond that religion is all about politics and money making.

Uddu,

You can call it anything you like, its a free country. At the same time, there is no "affiliated" MLA or party with church. Church is not political. Church backs some candidates. Affiliation is a wrong term used and this is what I am objecting too. I think, this addresses many other who have posted the usual Virulent stuff and posting some funny links to prove themselves right.

The link you have passed is protest againt Left Democratic Goverment. (And for a good point 'education.') This, I have already addressed. Please don't bring out things that has been already said. Repetitive is boring.

On my definition of securilism. I am flawed. I am not perfect. State and religion should be seperate, else we will be Pakistan. However, we are not yet Pakistan and hence it is reasonable to believe that faith is definitely not a major problem yet. In kerala, the aim of the church is not to run the government. The aim is to protect itself. The entire church is not a political party. they have a cell which looks after church's relation with state. As I said before in the Anna thread. We are just like anyother people. We are very divided and not homogenious. For example, the christians include Communist and we need to deal with ourselves. We can't castigate because they are communist (supposed to be non believers) and still come and pray to god. Ironically, the syro-malabars (google for this) are not excatly in good terms with the Latin Christains (who form the bulk of the christians in India). Marthomites, protestants, CSI etc don't like catholics in the states. The dynamics is very difficult to explain. Then there is RSS and now ISS.

Congress has many Christian MLA's, however, if you see the cabinet, see the structure. Christanity or Hinduism does not dictate the structure, its who brings in the most.

One interesting point you have come out with is (actually very good point) is the "money making" part. It is an issue within community. If we don't make money, then we will have to depend on external forces which can include foreign, political, vested etc. At the same time, the greed has grown. Church is very much vexed with this problem "How much is enough?"

Now, the gem of your point. Religion should not regulate minds. like you, I am a firm believer in that. This is a universal truth. In a 'perfect' world this should be possible. Unfortunately it is not.

Manish_Sharma,

There are so many people who have said so many things. Its good to read ans understand his /her POV. But, that dosen't mean that Christianity is what drives India. While the christian flavour given is undeniable, however it is more of the ' the mallu mafia' (as they say), includes MK narayanan, PM’s Principal Secretary TKA Nair, Cabinet Secretary KM Chandrasekhar, Secretary to President Christy Fernandes and Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon. Three of Congress chief Sonia Gandhi’s key aides, including private secretary Vincent George, are Malayalees. So are Commerce Secretary Gopal Krishna Pillai, securities regulator M Damodaran and Supreme Court Chief Justice KG Balakrishnan. India has two Malayalee ministers of Cabinet rank—Defence Minister AK Antony and Overseas Indian Affairs Minister Vayalar Ravi. (i am posting this from internet Link) . Former JN Dixit was a mallu too. So, my POV is that its more mallu dominated than Christian dominated. Some one in the posts above said "not because of their intelligence." I will leave that to open for everyone to decide.

devesh,

can you prove your point that RSS "controls" BJP? what is your definition of "Hindu Fundamentalist"?

your "alleged" comment is an uber example of Marxist negationism. seriously, now, India was "allegedly" Hindu before British rule or during or after???? so, if invaders crush us militarily and rule over us, then automatically, the "religion" of the majority of the inhabitants native to the land no longer represents the "nature" of the land?!?!?!

an important question: this standard is applied to WASP's in America b/c it conveniently negates the existence of natives before their arrival. it's interesting that some are propagating the same views about India. so, that is the mode of operation now: negate long standing history b/c of military defeats and foreign rule.....interesting.

as for Church affiliation of politicians, with all due respect and bluntness, have you been in a blissful sleep these past few years.

do a Google search on "YS Jagan Headquarters". the images should be very illustrative of the EJ proselytizing instinct and aggressive political assertion.

check this out:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OZUJOb9juRA/T ... e+copy.jpg

The Rss - BJP link : History organisation

Hindu fundamentalism. Please see the definition of Fundamalism. Add Hindu/Islamic/ Christian to it. You will get an idea.

Actually the above two were time waste questions. You should have found the definitions yourselves.

The "alleged hindu" comments has been addressed before. Why do you repeat the same things again and again, when I have already replied to it. Tell me if you have not understood the reply. it will be much better. As i said its boring repeating the same thing again and again.

The affiliation has been addresed above.

The Jagan Reddy thing went bouncers. I did not understand what you are trying to say.

I see a peculiar reaction from posts that seem to come from a sympathetic viewpoint about christianity - that they immediately turn to criticizing this or that aspect of India and Hindu. There is no need to be so defensive about Christianity. You can defend Christianity from the experiences of "west" or is it that you realize that its record everywhere is so indefensible that the only defense is a pre-emptive attack on the pet hates of India - Hindu - BJP?

I re read this. it was a reply to a gent who boasted. Read what was the context in posts before. Some how, I find these internet hindus write robotic arguments. For example, Don't be defensive, attacking Hindu etc.

[chackojoseph]

An explanation of Indian National Flag by a church group in Kerala. Non-mallus, please ask your mallu friend to translate this.

He say's:

A person who has inner light is an Indian.

The saffron stands for the people who are ready to fight and sacrifice. (he says the "kumkumam).

The green Stands prosperity. refering to people who are rich, the affluent class.

The white is us Christians. We have the inner light. Thank god we are whites.
(obviously refering to A person who has inner light is an Indian.)

(My observations: The above can be interpreted as we don't believe in fight or classes, we are equal)

the Ashok Chakra, he says is on the white and the chakra symbolises authority. he says the chakra is not on saffron or green, its with us on white. it means that A shok (in english it means sadness). The sadness will go. he says Saffron or green, sadness has to go, it needs to be white. God jesus should come withing us if white has to come and sadness has to go.

What is wrong with the creative explanation? he has not insulted the flag. The saffron, the green and white explanation is the same nationally. he has very creatively put it on why Christians are Indians. Actaully, thank you for posting this.

[Aditya_V]

Chacko, While there is no specific Church affliated MLA, what I find there is no one block of Clergy. However, many times like Goan, Mizoram elections leaders of chruches openly specify that belivers must vote for "Secular" parties- in Cong VS BJP fight we know which side they are rooting for. In my own state of TN, the Churches which deal with poorer chruch goers also issue pamplets asking belivers to vote for a particular party- P.S Look at the constiuents of Youth Congress in TN. The English(i.e where English service is held) Churches do not do this.

In Andhra, Noted preachers Paul and Brother Anil Kumar have in the past stated that YSR goverment is "GOD"s Government.

Notice Brother Anil Kumar will come Telugu Channels TV5 and TV9 before elections. He was caught with cash in brief cases but got away saying the money was for religious purposes.

Further, main reasons why "Internet Hindus" feel Congress is anti Hindu is that the Textbooks, writings Judgements and even immaterial stuff like the Census report 2011 is awash with propoganda about discredited theories like Aryan Invasion Theory, Sachar committee reports on how every hindu is torturing the average muslim. Congress takes over temples trusts etc. Hindu Bashing by NAC members drafting laws etc.

Further, Many persons connected with the Government like Ambika Soni, YSR , MK Narayanan, KG Balakrishnan take unessecary efforts to cover thier religious identity.

And above the Congreses Political fortunes seem to be connected with Minority % in consituncies and not on any form of good goverance they provide.

[shyam]

Ha ha ha... Chackocha.... looks like either you stayed away from Kerala for too long to understand the double meaning of what he says or just want to twist it. He gives enough hints in the video about his intentions.

The saffron stands for the people who are ready to fight and sacrifice. (he says the "kumkumam). {He is referring to hindus. There was a time when Kerala witnessed frequent fights between RSS and CPM workers and that created an image that only RSS is capable of fighting back equally. These were the people he was referring to those who would fight}

The green Stands prosperity. refering to people who are rich, the affluent class.{He uses the word "puthan" meaning newly rich. Muslims were the newly rich people due to recent gulf boom.}


The white is us Christians. We have the inner light. Thank god we are whites.
(obviously refering to A person who has inner light is an Indian.).{He plainly says white represents christians.}

the Ashok Chakra, he says is on the white and the chakra symbolises authority. he says the chakra is not on saffron or green, its with us on white .{That is authority is with christians and not with hindus or muslims.}
it means that A shok (in english it means sadness). The sadness will go. he says Saffron or green, sadness has to go, it needs to be white. {That means, whether you are hindu or muslim, you have to become christian to remove sadness.}
God jesus should come withing us if white has to come and sadness has to go.

What is wrong with the creative explanation? he has not insulted the flag. The saffron, the green and white explanation is the same nationally. he has very creatively put it on why Christians are Indians. Actaully, thank you for posting this.

Nothing wrong, it is perfectly legal to say what he said. But those who understand it see a different picture, especially when this kind of lecture is given to poor clueless ordinary folks. It is through this kind of subtle messages, they would slowly inject fundamentalism among the believers.

[chackojoseph]

Chacko, While there is no specific Church affliated MLA, what I find there is no one block of Clergy. However, many times like Goan, Mizoram elections leaders of chruches openly specify that belivers must vote for "Secular" parties- in Cong VS BJP fight we know which side they are rooting for. In my own state of TN, the Churches which deal with poorer chruch goers also issue pamplets asking belivers to vote for a particular party- P.S Look at the constiuents of Youth Congress in TN. The English(i.e where English service is held) Churches do not do this.

In Andhra, Noted preachers Paul and Brother Anil Kumar have in the past stated that YSR goverment is "GOD"s Government.

Notice Brother Anil Kumar will come Telugu Channels TV5 and TV9 before elections. He was caught with cash in brief cases but got away saying the money was for religious purposes.

Further, main reasons why "Internet Hindus" feel Congress is anti Hindu is that the Textbooks, writings Judgements and even immaterial stuff like the Census report 2011 is awash with propoganda about discredited theories like Aryan Invasion Theory, Sachar committee reports on how every hindu is torturing the average muslim. Congress takes over temples trusts etc. Hindu Bashing by NAC members drafting laws etc.

Further, Many persons connected with the Government like Ambika Soni, YSR , MK Narayanan, KG Balakrishnan take unessecary efforts to cover thier religious identity.

And above the Congreses Political fortunes seem to be connected with Minority % in consituncies and not on any form of good goverance they provide.

You are using the correct terminologies. Hence, its good. The Congress Vs BJP thing. I recap what i said in the anna thread (easier than searching for that). The kerala politics is primarly aimed at communist who wanted to take over schools etc.

The North Easter states and so called Christian freedom movement there are disconnected from rest of India. Need to be looked into the way they have been reated.

In other places, like orrissa, there is a tiff with Hindu organisations. hence Christians won't tuck with BJP.

other places, they are testing waters. Like in Gujarat with Modi Govt, In Maharashtra with MNS etc. let us see how it goes in next ten years. We are in a shell and will need to test waters before coming out.

Anil Kumar, we don't know this guy. but, if he has broken law, he should be brought into it. if he escaped citing for religious purpose, its unfortunate. he must be tried. the law should take him to task.

My definition of "Internet Hindus," some are friends because I have debated with in past (as old as 1998), is someone who is not a fundamentalist or confirms to general HIndu faith. He typically leaves in US or UK or West, and spewes venom on the coutries (the current host and India) that feeds him. earns in dollors or aspires to. He hates his own coutries law, the constitution, the host countries constituents, laws and constitution. Spew's venom on "other" places and cannot maintain a blog or something of his own. They hold some sort of hate gatherings in the host country. This may not be the 100% case,but, definitely out of my experience since 1998.

MK Narayanan, Bala Krishnan's are Hindus. Boss they are not Christians and Minorities.

Congress makes govt with 15% of Muslims and Christians in india. Man you need to seriously contemplate.

[abhishek_sharma]

-

[chackojoseph]

Ha ha ha... ....
Nothing wrong, it is perfectly legal to say what he said. But those who understand it see a different picture, especially when this kind of lecture is given to poor clueless ordinary folks. It is through this kind of subtle messages, they would slowly inject fundamentalism among the believers.

Shyam Sir,

You are also right. In malayalam there is a saying "a dog which was sitting for crying, a coconunt fell on him." Then beauty lies in the eyes if the beholder.

I knew that you will come up that Saffron on Indian flag = Hindus, Green = Muslims. However, the word satire has a meaning. Kerala has a flavour for it. West bengal is known for theater expressions.

But, the moot point he says is "we christians are Indians." You have conviniently overlooked it.