Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

[member_19969]

Hmm,


Is Rahul gandhi a defence enthusiast?

[Boreas]

Gen JJ Singh was widely considered a good chief by BRF until VKS started to peel off the skin to show the rot. Media latched on to JJ Singh with suspicion of wrong doing and it sold readily because him being a Sikh, PM being a sikh and the person that is replacing VKS being also sikh. All of this could very well be true but remains unproven.

He didn't get a flat in adarsh society, neither he cleared any controversial land deal or found to be involved in a fake encounter, ration scam or sex scandal. There is a chance that he might not be a bad guy except for some minor flaws etc. I think the 2 other generals that followed JJ were purely bad people and there is enough direct evidence available to show their culpability.

Amitabh Bachchan's name was recently cleared of Bofors scandal after 25+ years by the Swiss police chief. Reputation of innocent people can get sullied just because they happen to be in the room when the $hit hit the fan.

Here is something about the good (?) Gen JJ -

The real damage to the institution stems from the grievous charge that somehow army chief General JJ Singh engaged in a ‘look down policy’ to determine the ‘line of succession’ to the top position in the Army to favor a fellow Sikh. They allege that a detailed plan nick named ‘Operation Moses’ (suggesting that like the Old testament story the Chief would part the waters for Bikram Singh to smoothly walk through to become Chief) looking at the careers of many officers was started by JJ Singh. Bikram was Brigadier at that time and there were lot of variables to be considered. It is alleged that a number of qualified officers seen as threat to Bikram’s advancement were sidelined. (http://www.theweekendleader.com/Causes/ ... eigns.html)

The names of five officers from Bikram’s batch who were sidelined to favor him have been cited as proof of this plot. These officers were Brigadiers Padam Budhwar and MM Chaudhary and Majors Generals AK Singh, Shujjan Chatterjee, and Ravi Arora. (http://thestatesman.net/index.php?optio ... 7&catid=38) Arora’s case is interesting and raises many questions. He was the gold medallist from his batch and he was passed over for promotion from Brigadier to Major General in 2005. He made a representation against the promotion board decision but no decision was taken. In May 2005, he lodged a statutory complaint with MOD that was accepted in 2006. However, he was again rejected by the next promotion board held in July 2006 (four other officers of the 1972 batch were also not considered for promotion). In a bizarre move, in the next promotion board meeting of November 2006, Arora was approved for promotion to Major General rank although he had not made any representation. However, promotion was approved with the condition that his seniority be decreased by one year considering him with 1973 batch. (http://www.outlookindia.com/printarticle.aspx?279633) Everyone deduced from this exercise that Arora was too good to be sidelined at Brigadier rank, however by this maneuver he was made junior to Bikram and thus now not a threat to Bikram’s advancement.

[Ankit Desai]

Rahul Gandhi to be appointed as defence minister?

I would say it will help more to DM in that matter any ministry. As far as DM concern we have complain that Antony is unable to take decision and coming from state like kerala he carries socialist view which result in more support to PSU over private industries.

Now if prince will become the cabinet minister than whole GoI will focus on DM.Each and every decision will go in fast forward mode and even FM won't stop ambitious projects on a name of budget constraint which it was accused of in the past. With opposition and media more focus on DM one should hope to get more positive result coming up for armed forces.Congress party and GoI will also work to come up some schemes which can help armed forces and project prince as maaseiah of armed forces.

Only fear is with under more focused by opposition and media DM may not take any decision (more worse than antony) or take more political decision which could be neither +ve nor -ve with respect to armed forces.

Please mind that I am no fan or foe of prince as he doesn't carry any ideology. As far as I am concern he is null, empty.

Apology if discussion is transferred to some other thread or being OT.

-Ankit

[pragnya]

This is no scenario. welcome to 202 Army Aviation Squadron (UH), Jammu and Kashmir - which operates the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). all heroes...

Typical Tasking

The 202 Squadron is based in a location that renders all the areas of the valley approximately equidistant in terms of flying time for their Dhruv helicopters.

A UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle) is carrying out a surveillance sortie above the north western mountains bordering the valley. The fresh snowfall at the higher reaches tends to give away the movement of terrorists, since the only other presence in these inhospitable heights would be security forces.

The UAV pilot detects several sets of footprints in the snow with the high definition camera onboard and passes the data up the channel.

The record low number of infiltration attempts in the past year had made militants desperate.

The fact that the foot prints would have to be relatively fresh to remain visible even with the intermittent snowfall prevalent in these parts, increases their confidence of a possible interception. Meanwhile, the UAV circles over the location, following the tracking the footprints until they trail into the vegetation of a forest.

And so an operation is launched. A wide net is cast with patrols converging on the locations to surround it and set up a perimeter, without alerting the targets to their presence.

The pilots at 202 have already been informed of the possibility of being called up and begin preparing for the operation. While the engineering officers configure the aircraft for slithering, placing weapons and other special heliborne operations, the pilots assemble at the briefing room with maps and charts of the area to figure out their flight path and insertion points, and wait.

The detailed final tasking leaves no room for ambiguity and clearly lays out the role of the squadron. The terrorists remain in the forest, believing themselves safe in the shelter from the marginal weather.

The Special Forces unit has been on the job as well, familiarizing themselves with the terrain where they could establish contact on the basis of satellite imagery.

The call comes at five in the evening.

Four Dhruv helicopters are to deliver the troops and a Cheetah helicopter, fitted with a High Resolution Camera and Infra Red Surveillance System, will detect any thermal signatures in the cold environment. Three of the Dhruvs will insert commandos while the fourth will maintain standby position with a squad of commandos ready to deploy in case of an attempted escape. A UAV will provide overwatch.

The commandos board the aircraft, their gear double checked, and the pilots wave off the ground marshals and bring their aircraft to a hover.

The UAV sends in final confirmation of the layout: A slope which ends in a gradual gradient at the top, on the base of which is the forest, extending nearly two kilometers downhill. The forest is snowbound on all sides so any movement outside is likely to be picked up.

Flying close formation and nap-of-the-earth in coarse terrain, the Gideons use the folds of the ground to hide their fast moving task force from the terrorists. The autopilot and advanced onboard navigation system take the helicopters to the predetermined location. All this, while maintaining constant communication with the surveillance detachments monitoring the forest, and headquarters, beyond line-of-sight over the onboard VHF and HF radio.

Just before the last turn towards the valley where the intended Landing Zone (LZ) lay, the pilots switch to manual to hand-guide the aircraft, masking their flight to check out the LZ before deplaning the commandos. While the first helicopters overflies the forest and comes to a low hover over the gradual slope, the second tier moves closer towards the southern edge of the forest closer to the pine forest and slithers the troops down.

The fourth Dhruv circles at a distance, keeping the other three in sight and waits to deploy additional troops on the ground. The Cheetah and the drone keep the operation under watch.

The commandos cut off the militant group from the south and the gradual slope above. As soon as the first squad reaches the edge of the forest, they make contact and the fire-fight begins. This is when the fourth helicopter moves into position to drop the squad that to cut off the escape route of the terrorists.

For twenty minutes the commandos pound the location of the terrorists with automatics and grenades. The commandos carefully entered the forest, and closed in. The militants fire a rocket at the fourth helicopter, missing it but giving it a good shaking. But this also gives away the position of the launcher and the commandos silence it quickly.

Half an hour and the terrorists are neutralized. Time elapsed from first sighting by the UAV: One hour.

But the commandos find they’ve also taken casualties and pull out two hit by splinters and one critical, with a femoral artery rupture. While they mop up, a CASEVAC call has been sent out and an air ambulance configured Dhruv is on its way.

As it closes in on their location, the extraction of the commandos has already begun, while the Cheetah helicopter scans the area one last time for signs of life. The infantry moves in to clear the area and take custody of the dead terrorists.

After sunset, the pilots now fly with their Night Vision Goggles (NVG), operating under minimum light conditions which are further exacerbated by the shadows thrown by the mountains.

The commandos at the LZ mark it with Infra-Red markers and lights to guide the pilots to a safe landing point. The doctor arrives and loads the casualties on the aircraft, which can carry four stretchers and other life saving equipment.

He stabilizes the casualties giving in-flight first aid and treatment for trauma to deliver them safely into the care of waiting surgeons and doctors on ground.

Twelve terrorists are killed and a large cache of arms and ammunition recovered.

The Dhruvs eliminated the need for a long, grueling mountain walk by the security forces and reduced the reaction time from possibly a few days to a couple of hours, making intelligence inputs truly actionable. Meanwhile, the Special Forces and 202 Squadron continue to devise newer tactics for Special Heliborne Operations.

The air ambulance configuration of the Dhruv ALH provides a unique CASEVAC capability from inhospitable environments. The 202 Squadron’s unit doctor, says the idea is to pick up a casualty from a forward location, stabilize him in the air and either improve or maintain his current condition till the time he reaches a high medical center.

Evacuating by air has its own, different challenges in comparison to evacuation on ground, involving flights at different speed, temperatures and pressures. There are a lot of aero-medical issues that are involved in stabilizing the casualty,” says the doctor, adding, “There are certain casualties which require a certain amount of restrictions in terms of the altitude, in terms of the rate of ascent and descent.”

The air ambulance can carry four stretchers cases and two sitting casualties, attended by a medical attendant and a dispatcher, or simply eight sitting casualties at a time. Casualties are slid in an out of the aircraft through the clamshell doors in the back with the average time being 30 seconds each.
The doctor says the most crucial thing for a patient in the air is oxygen management. “When we’re carrying him in the air he should not be deprived – he should not deteriorate – especially since he’s coming from high altitudes. So we have the Independent Patient Oxygen System, which consists of two cylinders and four masks. So one cylinder takes care of two lying patients for a minimum of two to two and a half hours – continuous hundred percent oxygen.”

The air ambulance also carries a Multi System Monitor equipment for constant monitoring the four basis important parameters of casualties, pulse, blood pressure, body temperature and ECG. “We can shift up the monitoring system from one patient to another, as and when required,” says the doctor. The system can monitor the parameters of multiple patients simultaneously. “I can monitor the blood pressure of one patient the oxygen for the other the ECG for the third – so I can monitor multiple patients at a time, depending on the requirement,” he says.

Also onboard is a defibrillator for providing an electric shock in the event of a cardiac arrest. The system analyzes the status of the heart and also indicates if the electrodes are not properly connected. “The moment it says that shock has to be given I press the red button. Otherwise it will tell me ‘Please remove the leads shock not required’,” says the specialist in aviation medicine.
Both of these devices have independent batteries which have an endurance of around two and a half hours and do not require an external power supply, catering for long distance CASEVAC, as well.

They also carry special stretchers. The ‘Scoop’ stretcher can be disassembled, placed on the sides below a casualty with spinal injury and reassembled allowing the casualty to be picked up and moved. They also have a stretcher that can allow a casualty to be winched up, but this is still at a trial stage and would come into play only when there is absolutely no place for the aircraft to land.

And of course, the aircraft carries the ‘doctor’s bag’, which includes a standby oxygen system, ventilator system, suctions apparatus and essential drugs.

“Yesterday we had a gunshot wound at a forward area. It was stabilized initially by the personnel there. We took off the aircraft in the air ambulance role, reached that place, picked up the casualty,” he says. The casualty’s blood pressure dropped and he required a large vessel repair. The air ambulance stabilized the patient and brought him to the referral hospital in Srinagar where he is now stable.

good read IMO. more here -

Meet the SOARING GIDEONS

[svinayak]

What is the cost of this operation for 1 hr to neutralize 12 targets in the mountains.
With so many Helis and casualties this must be a high cost operation.

[member_23360]

Human life has no cost, its invaluable ...

[Victor]

This is a great change from before but army Apaches will change the scenario even more drastically. They can't come soon enough.

[pragnya]

This is a great change from before but army Apaches will change the scenario even more drastically. They can't come soon enough.

how come Victor?? the Dhruvs are being used for insertion of the forces at determined zones, plying them back to base post operation, medvac etc..IOW basically transporting (up to 8 people).

Apache is an attack heli similar to LCH with 2 in tandem seats. both can't replace the Dhruv in this scenario.

also remember (if you read the entire report) the AAC is talking about Dhruv mark 1 which are going to be replaced by 2/3/4 (the Rudras with Mistrals).

inspiring tale IMO about not just how the AAC operates in J&K but also how ALH DHRUV is making a difference in CT operatins.

[Katare]

you must have not been reading then. JJ Singh was considered iffy from the first and long before VKS came along his doings were open secret.

have been reading I thought but if i missed something would like to correct it? What did you read in pre VKS era that I missed?

What's his contribution to the Army that makes him credible? Why did he not expose any corruption scandals ? Did they all happen in the two years after he retired ? What's your fanfare based on ?

Your post is in poor taste my friend! What makes you think I am "fan" of JJ Singh? I only said that media report about him got this vicious only after VKS started to show the rot. By no means, I said that he is innocent or he was a great general. We simply don't know all of the truth yet and may not know it ever. It is certain that he wasn't one of the exemplary General in league of Sundarji or VKS but those are pretty tall sticks to measure anyone's performance. Also we must also remember that even retired officers are bound by service/official secrecy rules to defend themselves.

[Victor]

This is a great change from before but army Apaches will change the scenario even more drastically. They can't come soon enough.

how come Victor?? the Dhruvs are being used for insertion of the forces..

With a single Apache (and hopefully LCH when it comes) monitoring and dispatching the terrorists with precision from a safe distance, the only insertion necessary will be to pick up the carcasses. The cost-benefit ratio becomes unteneble for the pakis.

[A Sharma]

^^
Wouldn't Rudra be able to do both the tasks?

[Victor]

Possibly, if its gun, sensors and targeting are accurate and lethal enough to do the job with a few short bursts from a safe distance, day or night. Rockets are an expensive waste tor this type of op. The point is to make it obvious that eliminating infiltrators is as casual an exercise for the army as swatting flies.

[ManuJ]

For large operations, shouldn't an air-ambulance helicopter be part of the initial package since there's a high probability of sustaining injuries?

Sending out a chopper only after receiving a CASEVAC call means losing precious time.

[vasu raya]

Lots of people die in accidents or other causes and some of them voluntarily register with medical faciliies before death to donate there organs

Can this be applied to dead terrorists? and save people in the valley especially injured soldiers where bullets or sharpnel penetrate internal organs rendering them beyond recovery, if this were handled by a desi equivalent of Red cross, would it be acceptable?

The ethical line is so thin, its scary

[chetak]

Lots of people die in accidents or other causes and some of them voluntarily register with medical faciliies before death to donate there organs

Can this be applied to dead terrorists? and save people in the valley especially injured soldiers where bullets or sharpnel penetrate internal organs rendering them beyond recovery, if this were handled by a desi equivalent of Red cross, would it be acceptable?

The ethical line is so thin, its scary

Injured terrorists are routinely treated in Army Hospitals, sometimes with adjacent Operation Theater beds being occupied by terrorist and Indian Soldier during emergency surgery.

[vasu raya]

^^^

good to know chetak ji, the surviving terrorists change or show a Bangladesh type mosaic picture ranging between regret of past actions, loyalty and fierce opposition of help?

with hospitals having wait lists of people needing organ donors, can this terrorists organ donation be debated?

[shiv]

This is a great change from before but army Apaches will change the scenario even more drastically. They can't come soon enough.

In what way will the scenario change more drastically? What are the difference you anticipate?

[pragnya]

With a single Apache (and hopefully LCH when it comes) monitoring and dispatching the terrorists with precision from a safe distance, the only insertion necessary will be to pick up the carcasses. The cost-benefit ratio becomes unteneble for the pakis.

Victor,

you are missing too many points here i am afraid -

1. first of all as a policy IA is not resorting to aerial bombing using PGMs. what about collateral damage?? that too when the targets are not 100% IDed as target?? if you read the article, there are instances where the UAVs have followed only the fresh footmarks in the snow and followed the trail to identify the zones they are in before pressing in the forces.

2. even if it was used what guarantee is there that the PGMs will work at those altitudes against dots which are moving?? you are asking to hit a needle in a haystack. there is no PGM which has 100% CEP. you have to account for the weather too which can make the PGMs redundant. one has to factor in the MANPADS too so the helis can't come too close.

remember in Kargill, IIRC out 9 LGBS only 5 were successful that too against immovable assets like bunkers which are large targets anyway.

3. how will the terrorists be continuously tracked when there is no radar in the market to track them and designate in thick foliage, snow, mountains before taking them out. can one be sure all the terrorists huddle together all the time so one or two PGMs will do the trick even if tracking, designating was available?? (which in any case is not the case). if not, how many PGMs will be required to target a bunch of terrorists all spaced out?? what is the cost of each PGM?? remember the terrorists are as well trained (as in many cases) as the commandos. they know how to play the game too.

even YSR, the late andhra CM's body was recovered after a herculean task by pressing SU 30MKIs with SARs and all!!!

which is why - DRDO was tasked to develop 'thro' foliage looking radar'

4. Apaches i am afraid may not even be able to operate at such altitudes. infact it is a fact that only Dhruv and later LCH will operate at such altitudes - a very india specific parameter. my own feeling is the Apaches will be used in anti armour and close support roles to the army.

5. CT units have honed their tactics in such a way that they ambush the terrorists at their choosing both space and time wise ofc post tracking them in a given zone. this reduces the collateral damage and helps in positively IDing the targets too.

there is a method in what the AAC/CT units are doing. the need of the hour was tracking the targets, paasing the intel to the base, allowing them into a 'no escape zone' and quickly getting the units in the zone and ambushing them - which is what is happening.

6. that apart any terrorist caught in the face off will be an asset in unmasking the background boys and future intel too - a plus diplomatically and militarily.

[chetak]

^^^

good to know chetak ji, the surviving terrorists change or show a Bangladesh type mosaic picture ranging between regret of past actions, loyalty and fierce opposition of help?

with hospitals having wait lists of people needing organ donors, can this terrorists organ donation be debated?

I think that it is misguided policy but the IA disagrees with me.

The immediate outcry from (r)undeeTV will be Islam khatre me hai.

[Victor]

Shiv:
An Apache attack on a column of men of the kind that can be seen on youtube would keep more of our jawans out of harm's way and make the cost per jehadi killed cheaper. If we can reduce the choppers used from 4 to 2 and jawans used from 14-16 to maybe 2-4, we have made a further huge dent in the paki equation of bleeding us.

Pragnya:
I have mentioned that the only weapon worth using on jehadis is the precision chain gun. Rockets, bombs etc are too expensive. So collateral damage will be far less than what we are forced to do now. Apache's operational ceiling is 21,000 ft, far above most infiltration attempts. And it can show its pilots if these are sheepherders or tourists carrying guns and rocket launchers, during day or night and through vegetation (thermal imaging). MANPADS are a danger even now for the choppers but most Apache attacks don't give the enemy any warning. Indeed the AAC/CT units are doing a fantastic job. We are taking about them becoming much more effective with a weapon like the Apache. I am sure the Apache will be used in close support and anti armour but that is a distant eventuality. Given their extreme utility in CT, I expect they will not be kept in the hangars all the time awaiting a cross border attack. At least a few will be used for CT.

[pragnya]

Victor,

Pragnya:

I have mentioned that the only weapon worth using on jehadis is the precision chain gun. Rockets, bombs etc are too expensive. So collateral damage will be far less than what we are forced to do now.

i saw your post later where you talk of the guns but even then the same conditions apply. you have to see them to fire them.

Apache's operational ceiling is 21,000 ft, far above most infiltration attempts. And it can show its pilots if these are sheepherders or tourists carrying guns and rocket launchers,

and Dhruv's ceiling is 27500ft and which is proven operating at Siachen. so Dhruv has a greater advantage besides it's ability to transport.

during day or night and through vegetation (thermal imaging).

none to my knowledge from the heights the helis are supposed to operate with MANPADS factored in. any specific TI that you can link me?? or the one in the Apache??

from WIKI - The Army awarded a contract to begin initial production of Block III helicopters in October 2010.[196] Throughout 2011, AH-64Ds will be upgraded with VNsight low-light television sensors (LLTV), allowing ambient lighting such as street lights, beacons, and headlights to be viewable; which existing thermal imagers cannot do

Given their extreme utility in CT, I expect they will not be kept in the hangars all the time awaiting a cross border attack. At least a few will be used for CT.

only if IA/AAC change their policy. even here LCH will be better of.

however i don't think it is going to happen in the near future for the simple reason IA/AAC/CT units understand the limits associated with air operations in mountainous, forested terrain, limits of technology etc..and by operating in the way they are - they are minimising the costs, overcoming the tech barrier, building up intel, getting better and better everyday. not for nothing IA is acknowledged as the best counter terror force in the world.

that apart it gives the army real valuable lessons of mountain warfare to hone their skills/tactics and reserve it for a bigger future engagement.

[shiv]

Shiv:
An Apache attack on a column of men of the kind that can be seen on youtube would keep more of our jawans out of harm's way and make the cost per jehadi killed cheaper.

Yes, provided battles take place as they do on Youtube.

In Kashmir the terrain is mountainous and men have trees/forest for cover. They may also take cover in houses. The whole area has to be surrounded by men so that they do not escape. If 3 men are seen they will all run in 3 different directions from an approaching helo and quickly duck behind cover and make a break for it. Once they are in dense jungle no helo can get them. There is a vast difference between Iraq, rocky Afghanistan and Kashmir.

Besides, we have no information that cost per hour will be less with Apaches.

[Victor]

Pragnya, I assume we are buying the Apache because it can do something that no current chopper in our inventory can do and we consider it the best in the world. You are assuming that it will be used only in anti armour and close support. I am sure it will be used in CT too. I guess we just wait and see. LCH has the same ceiling as the Apache because they carry similar equipment-21,000 ft. That is an altitude at which men will die without oxygen so there will be no infiltration at anywhere near that height. Whatever the AAC is doing with Druv they can do better with an Apache (or LCH when it comes) with less risk to our troops.

We are on the same team, so let's agree to disagree. Out.

[pragnya]

Victor,

Pragnya, I assume we are buying the Apache because it can do something that no current chopper in our inventory can do and we consider it the best in the world.

no doubt Apache is the best out there among the attack helicopters but these in IAF will replace the the MI 24/35s the numbers of which is similar (20+). these are pretty old and not 'maintainence friendly'. however some may still be retained with upgrades. so Apaches will have a similar role as the MI 35s.

You are assuming that it will be used only in anti armour and close support. I am sure it will be used in CT too. I guess we just wait and see.

i only meant the primary role. Apache's role being CAS and Anti-armour will probably have other roles like CT too but IA has to determine that with possibly MOD nod for such change in policy. but this can happen when the technology is available for such operations in mountainous region which is not there presently.

LCH has the same ceiling as the Apache because they carry similar equipment-21,000 ft.

correct. but the numbers will be more to put to use. 65 on order for IAF/114 for the IA. support and maintainence will be easier as is now for the Dhruv besides the cost will be low too.

That is an altitude at which men will die without oxygen so there will be no infiltration at anywhere near that height.

i did not mean the infiltration will happen at that height. even if it happens at 15000ft+ the helis have to operate atleast 4 to 5 kms higher to keep themselves safe.

Whatever the AAC is doing with Dhruv they can do better with an Apache (or LCH when it comes) with less risk to our troops.

have to disagree for the reasons i have already enumerated.

We are on the same team, so let's agree to disagree. Out.

agreed.

[shiv]

Pragnya, I assume we are buying the Apache because it can do something that no current chopper in our inventory can do and we consider it the best in the world. You are assuming that it will be used only in anti armour and close support. I am sure it will be used in CT too.

Victor I am sure it can be used for CT, But I suspect that it will not. The Dhruv may in fact be a better choice because it can insert and evacuate men who are invariably required on the ground to cut off escape routes and also carry the light armament that is required against terrorists rather than the heavy punch-a-hole through armor that the Apache represents.

I have read these stories of men strapping themselves on to the wings of a US Apache to rescue a fallen comrade. Heroic as the story sounds it is also a case of slightly silly sounding jugaad in the absence of a better helo for that job. In fact for that incident an Mi 25 would have been better- the Apache would hardly have been able to use its weapons with men tied on to the wings.

You may have seen the Vayu Shakti video of an Mi 17 with twin 12.7 mm machine guns blazing out of the side. That again would be good for CI - but the Dhruv is lighter, and probably more economical

[Aditya_V]

You may have seen the Vayu Shakti video of an Mi 17 with twin 12.7 mm machine guns blazing out of the side. That again would be good for CI - but the Dhruv is lighter, and probably more economical

OT but are these equivalent to 50 cal ammunition fired from the browning?

[member_20453]

Apache block 3 is a whole new gen beast, needs an enely worthy or its caliber, i think the initial order of 22 is not enough, we need to quickly ramp up that order to atleast 5 times more to around 110, we need atleast 5 squadrons of 22 helos each, they should be used mainly for assault roles, CAS, Anti armor, help amphibious landings. It's magnificent low level capabilties make it ideal for First night infiltration missions to take out key comm. nodes, SR-Radars, Hellfire comes in various warheads and this allows the Apache to have the ability to target a various types of targets in the first few hours of battle. Rudra/Dhruv mk-3 is more than enough for CI roles in Kashmir.

First things first cancel the 197 helo tender, wait for the LUH to be ready and order around 300 of them in 2015 when LUH should be ready for full-rate production. We also need a pronto order of around 500 Dhruv Mk-3. Dhruv mk-3/ Rudra and LUH should be mainstay for domestic defence needs (CI, Anti terror, Anti mao, VIP transport etc.).

[merlin]

Are you sure LUH will be ready by 2015? Somehow I doubt that very much. Even the LCH won't be fully ready by 2015, LUH is still on the drawing board. The 197 order should go ahead if they are urgently needed and the Cheetahs/Cheetals can't soldier along for much longer. In fact I suspect that the follow-on 180 order will also go to the 197 order vendor given that HAL will license produce at least some of them and they like that.

[Lalmohan]

aditya - roughly speaking yes
septimus - no need to cancel and wait, better to procure and use

[vic]

Dump the Apache and use the money saved for bullet proof jackets and hand held thermal imagers

[member_19648]

Are you sure LUH will be ready by 2015? Somehow I doubt that very much. Even the LCH won't be fully ready by 2015, LUH is still on the drawing board. The 197 order should go ahead if they are urgently needed and the Cheetahs/Cheetals can't soldier along for much longer. In fact I suspect that the follow-on 180 order will also go to the 197 order vendor given that HAL will license produce at least some of them and they like that.

LUH is not in the drawing board. There has been good amount of work on it!

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/08/up ... ammes.html

After freezing configuration in June 2009 and design in August last year, HAL is now in the process of identifying systems and equipment for its Light Utility Helicopter (LUH). The transmission and rotor system design has been completed, and is fully indigenous. Raising of assembly jigs and fixtures is currently in progress. One ground test vehicle (GTV) and three prototypes of the LUH are planned, with a first prototype flight in 2012 and initial operational clearance by 2014. Apart from servicing a requirement of 187 helicopters from the Army and IAF, HAL expects to sell at least 100 to the civil market.

Getting everything at high cost from foreign market and license building is not the way to go forward, if HAL cannot deliver within the promised time, then depending on circumstances, the decision can be taken, when they have said 2015, then we should wait and watch till 2015.

[Victor]

Points to note about this Apache attack video:
* Rounds are very accurate, each like a grenade. Anything other than gun is overkill
* Engagement is at night
* Terrain is mountainous/hilly with trees/forest
* Pilot is switching between night vision and thermal imaging. He switches to thermal imaging when targets are hiding in trees/forest
* Human targets can be seen clearly through trees/forest
* Targets cannot hear the Apache. Most likely it is hovering at extreme range--up to 1 mile+ away
* Even in daytime, targets cannot see or hear the Apache. The first indication they get of trouble is shells exploding among them.
* Jehadis can try to run but they cannot hide and will be killed/maimed. There is no more "two slipped away" report that we frequently get.
* Cordons are not needed and all that remains to be done is round up the odd survivor and transport the remains.

An attack chopper is optimized for a single role--attack. It is loaded to the gills with weapons and ammo and everything else save the crew is taken out. It does not attempt to carry troops like the Dhruv or Mi-17 because if it did, it would have to carry less weapons and ammo. The "Rudra" is optimized for another role where a mix of weapons, ammo and troops is required. It is not in competition with the Apache but is a partner capable of doing things the Apache cannot and vice versa.

The ideal would be a typical infiltration being stopped and eliminated by an Apache within minutes of being detected followed by cleanup/roundup by Rudra/Dhruv/Mi-17/municipal lorry/horse-cart depending on remains needing to be transported and from where. Obviously there will be variations depending on the situation and terrain.

The pakis have a well-oiled low-cost/low-risk program in place with these infiltrating jehadis. The Indian Army sheds blood and spends lakhs per infiltration while the families of the "martyrs" get taken care of with Saudi money and Norinco provides the weapons. With UAVs and Dhruvs we have now been able to cut down the infiltration success rate a lot as shown in the article above. The next step is to minimize IA bloodshed and the cost per infiltration--how much petrol, number of jawans, type of transport used for clean up etc.

[Pranav]

Thanks, excellent video.

The phobia against using helicopters for CI ops, even at the cost of Indian lives, is unjustifiable. The video shows that the potential for civilian casualties is minimal. In any case, the helicopter pilot can take a closer look at the targets with his sensors than a soldier on the ground would be able to do.

[Singha]

imo with only 22 apaches, the chances of IAF letting its platinum asset and H&D mascot (Apache > Rudra) be used to help the IA in this "mundane" role is very slim.

what IA needs to do is find a way to weaponize the Searcher2 or obtain a bigger UAV of the Reaper size (Rustom2 ?) asap --- generally a lot cheaper and more disposable than gunship helis, can be used in bulk, no H&D issues with anyone, operational control with the army aviation corps.....arm them with 4-6 ATGMs and release on any hostiles. no chance of a cannon, but a couple ATGMs launched on this kind of jihadi pack from 15,000ft alt will arrive with zero warning and cause damage.

just trying to a "realist" here. US has 100s of apaches to play around with so its a routine asset for them infact their army has no other smaller gunship. the usmc is the one who still operate the seacobras.

in meantime just buy lot of WSI Dhruvs for the same role as a supplement.

[Victor]

The capabilities shown actually would greatly reduce the risk of collateral damage. The Apache is able to select and target individuals as shown in other gun camera footage, making operations clinically "clean".

Singha, what you say is true but the hope is that someone sees the potential and allows even 2 or 3 to be loaned for CI work. Even though it would be criminal, the rest can grace some hangars and look pretty on Republic Day parade and Aeroindia while they wait for a full-blown declared war and the pakis continue to bleed us on a daily basis with impunity. Conventional wisdom says that 22 Apaches is a ridiculously low number for our situation. Hopefully we are looking at at least double that number.

The use of ATGMs Imo should be reduced to a bare minimum as the cost factor would defeat the purpose.

[merlin]

Are you sure LUH will be ready by 2015? Somehow I doubt that very much. Even the LCH won't be fully ready by 2015, LUH is still on the drawing board. The 197 order should go ahead if they are urgently needed and the Cheetahs/Cheetals can't soldier along for much longer. In fact I suspect that the follow-on 180 order will also go to the 197 order vendor given that HAL will license produce at least some of them and they like that.

LUH is not in the drawing board. There has been good amount of work on it!

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/08/up ... ammes.html

After freezing configuration in June 2009 and design in August last year, HAL is now in the process of identifying systems and equipment for its Light Utility Helicopter (LUH). The transmission and rotor system design has been completed, and is fully indigenous. Raising of assembly jigs and fixtures is currently in progress. One ground test vehicle (GTV) and three prototypes of the LUH are planned, with a first prototype flight in 2012 and initial operational clearance by 2014. Apart from servicing a requirement of 187 helicopters from the Army and IAF, HAL expects to sell at least 100 to the civil market.

Getting everything at high cost from foreign market and license building is not the way to go forward, if HAL cannot deliver within the promised time, then depending on circumstances, the decision can be taken, when they have said 2015, then we should wait and watch till 2015.

HAL CANNOT deliver on time. Name one program where they have.

[chetak]

Fiddle at the Academy

Symptom Of An Extensive Malaise Within The Military

By Abhijit Bhattacharyya
WHEN the National Defence Academy corruption story broke in June, I had called up an old friend, a decorated three-star retired military officer settled in Pune to check whether or not he knew anything “extra special” about the matter. He feigned ignorance and also advised me not to give credence to such “baseless and malicious” reporting by an “irresponsible” Indian press. After two weeks, during which time the case had assumed the proportion of a deep-rooted scandal, I telephoned my long-time soldier-friend again to know the reaction of the armed forces’ veterans, now settled in Pune.
This time, the retired General replied: “Kindly remember old boy, that this is no corruption at all. You should look into the quality and quantity of the civil corruption first, before wasting your time, energy and resources on the soldiers. The soldiers have done absolutely no wrong. This is owing to the present system which has been in place for long. One simply followed it in letter and spirit. Look at the degree and depth of what happened to our great Rajat Gupta in the USA. Look at the scams in which various ministries of the Government of India are involved. Look at the unprecedented loot in the name of Commonwealth Games and tell me how many IAS officers have been punished, transferred, jailed or dismissed from service for their acts of omission and commission? How many civil servants were asked to proceed on leave in the aftermath of the 1962 war in which China thrashed India? Why do discredited and failed IAS officers get time-bound promotion to rule over us (we soldiers)? Why don’t the ignorant netas and babus first try to learn the subject before dealing with the various proposals on national defence and security? Why do they maltreat us with such supreme arrogance and ignorance? Remember, and I mean it, the young officers of the armed forces today are fed up with, and tired of, the rampant mega-corruption in the civilian bureaucracy and political set-up. They also have a strong urge to make money at the expense of their sense of duty. You just cannot stop them. Their actions are only a drop in the ocean. If you have the guts, fight for the honour of the military and give them their dues; and warn the civilian babus and netas that the officers and soldiers of India will not take this nonsense and avoidable humiliation anymore.”
One was simply stunned as the former three-star apolitical and professional Commander blurted his heart out. One could sense the extraordinary degree of depression and demoralisation that has gripped the collective psyche of the “injured” and the “hurt ego” of the Generals.
A week later, one tried again and spoke to some other retired commanders. Regretfully, one heard a virtual chorus of anger and resentment in the minds of the veterans. This is an ominous trend. Along with the retired, why are some of the senior serving officers equally angry... and now corrupt? What ails the system? What is the remedy? The answers are not readily available simply because only those at the helm of the State apparatus may have some clues to offer and ensure a semblance of sanity, if they so desire.
It is now quite transparent that the Indian army today is a divided house. It has two groups at the higher command of the officer corps who can make or break the traditional apolitical professionalism of the army despite such factors as caste, religion, tribe, ethnicity and the language-based regimental system. A striking feature is the emergence of powerful and allegedly corrupt commanders. There also appears to have been a decline in the number of “honest” leaders of men. And between them, there has developed a silent and fierce struggle for power, indeed to climb the hierarchical ladder.
The recent spate of corruption cases against senior military officers raises a fundamental question. Have the commanders’ anger, unscrupulous actions and lack of probity contaminated (or likely to contaminate) the junior officers in the front? No, not yet. But, “tell tale” symptoms of decay, dissatisfaction, defiance, disobedience and disorder in the camp, cantonment and mess have surfaced from time to time ever since the mutiny of ace soldiers from the traditional catchment areas in June 1984. The corruption in the higher echelons of the military should be taken as a serious warning because unlike the shrinking armies of the Western nations (except the USA), the Indian army is constantly expanding owing to multiple-front external threats and the civilian corruption in the hinterland of soldier recruitment/catchment areas. Here, the country’s history could be useful for the present-day state actors to confront the corruption at the level of men and their masters in uniform. One example would suffice. While the numerical strength of the Mughal army had increased over time, the military network became cumbrous and hard to be controlled and managed. To make matters worse, acute jealousy and bitter rivalry between senior officers often destroyed the chances of success in campaigns. Historian William Irvine has pointed out that “corruption” was one of the evils “from which the Mughal army suffered in its most balmy days”.
After the Revolt of 1857, the British constituted military commissions to look into all aspects of soldiering in India virtually every 10 years. The government introduced reforms that covered recruitment, retention and retirement. The formation of regiments was periodically changed. Unfortunately, free India has not inspired any confidence in matters pertaining to defence and one major reason is the presence of non-specialist, uninterested people. There are very serious and unresolved issues which need to be addressed with a long-term perspective. The government must set up a commission to examine all aspects of recruitment, retention, regiment, pay, promotion prospects, and political patronage.
The country’s 1.2 million-strong army is allegedly plagued by corruption and scams relating to ration, recruitment, land-deals, bravery awards, sale of the handgun, housing, armament acquisition, posting, promotion, and even the wrong date of birth at the highest level. This poses a grave threat to the nation’s security. It also points to utter demoralisation and destruction of the system from within. The nation’s army faces a defeat without fighting a war.

The writer is an alumnus of the National Defence College of India and a practising

[ashish raval]

^^ I know this from the day I joined brf, but since soldiers are the saviours in good faith it is a moral crime to speak against them when 90% of civil society is virtually standing on bricks of corruption.

[chetak]

^^ I know this from the day I joined brf, but since soldiers are the saviours in good faith it is a moral crime to speak against them when 90% of civil society is virtually standing on bricks of corruption.

ashish raval ji,

I understand where you are coming from.

An overwhelmingly vast majority of the Forces guys are good guys.

A few bad apples have set the Forces in a bad light.

I sincerely hope that it's just a passing phase.

[vishvak]

There are absolutely no rules about behavior of authorities probing corruption on ignoring civilian corruption, or to ignore corruption worth lacs of crores over some other, etc. and so on. In these ad-hoc probes where spirit of the law is not upheld, other issues are to make the system look working as 'normal'.

The system has become exceptional and ad-hoc in any case when the highest forms of corruption in the government are overlooked foremost.