Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 07 Jan 2013 18:44

peter wrote:Regarding the "good police officers" comment someone made it is probably a misnomer today. Most all of the police think that they are "above" the normal citizenry as if they have some more "rights" then all of us. This attitude starts obviously at the top.

There are good police officers. I know a few personally. These are not the movie hero types who rebel against the system by going against the senior officers etc.

They have lines and within their lines, they do what they can. There are things that they can do nothing about and they let it be, so they can do what they can do.

I know one who did not marry, knowing that he will be shunted every few months because he does not take money etc. Unfortunately his 'goodness' is only effective for things he deals with and a few of his subordinates who respect him. The rest is business as usual.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 07 Jan 2013 19:19

Several of Swamijis are hand in glove with with power brokers. They have very high patronage from politicians, and the several of the Swamijis float in money. It may not surprise me if Congis asked some of the Swami's to issue statements to divert the attention.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 07 Jan 2013 19:29

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 283365.ece

Rapists in UK being let off with minimal or no punishment.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Jan 2013 19:35

Gus wrote: There are good police officers. I know a few personally. These are not the movie hero types who rebel against the system by going against the senior officers etc.

They have lines and within their lines, they do what they can. There are things that they can do nothing about and they let it be, so they can do what they can do.

I know one who did not marry, knowing that he will be shunted every few months because he does not take money etc. Unfortunately his 'goodness' is only effective for things he deals with and a few of his subordinates who respect him. The rest is business as usual.

+1008. There are quite a many good police officers. I posted the story about one such IPS officer in Nukkad recently. There are many of them.

More than anything, we need a speedy justice system. Every civil case should be resolved in 6 months and criminal case 1 year or something like that. The appeal process also should fasten drastically. This is one key support system police need.

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 07 Jan 2013 19:48

Raja Bose wrote:Who is this ch@@tiya??

Delhi gang-rape victim as guilty as her rapists, Asaram Bapu says

"Only 5-6 people are not the culprits. The victim is as guilty as her rapists... She should have called the culprits brothers and begged before them to stop... This could have saved her dignity and life. Can one hand clap? I don't think so," Media reports quoted Asaram Bapu, as saying.

Disgraceful.

What a moronic thing to say!!

peter · Post by **peter** » 07 Jan 2013 19:49

Gus wrote:
peter wrote:Regarding the "good police officers" comment someone made it is probably a misnomer today. Most all of the police think that they are "above" the normal citizenry as if they have some more "rights" then all of us. This attitude starts obviously at the top.
There are good police officers. I know a few personally. These are not the movie hero types who rebel against the system by going against the senior officers etc.

They have lines and within their lines, they do what they can. There are things that they can do nothing about and they let it be, so they can do what they can do.

I will have to invoke Clinton here and ask what is the definition of good?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 07 Jan 2013 19:55

Anantha wrote:Several of Swamijis are hand in glove with with power brokers. They have very high patronage from politicians, and the several of the Swamijis float in money. It may not surprise me if Congis asked some of the Swami's to issue statements to divert the attention.

While your theory might be true, however several religious leaders do feel women need to play second fiddle in our life. Even the sanyasees of the good Himalayan Academy, in Kauai, expect women to perform household chores ityadi onlee. And these monks are well respected in USA, India, Srilanka, Mauritius and Malaysia. Their stance on women needs to be changed.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 07 Jan 2013 19:58

Gus wrote:There are good police officers. I know a few personally. These are not the movie hero types who rebel against the system by going against the senior officers etc.

+100.

There are many. Esp. amongst the officer corp. Even the beat cops have many good types. In TN I would say it is 50/50. Like Gus says there are limits to what they can do but as far as possible they try to help. There were mini riots in Kanyakumari earlier when one popular and upright officer was shifted for political reasons. The politicians had to back down. A watchful electorate can very much help these officers advance.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Jan 2013 20:25

Police are as capable of deception as anybody else. they wear masks just like everyone else.
they know which mask to where for whom.
in the urban areas, when meeting or interacting with the "educated upper middle class", the officer corps is extremely sensitive to how they present themselves.
the same officers, if put in a rural setting or dealing with "outside the 'upper middle' " section, show a different behavior.
I've seen this 2-faced masking/unmasking a few times that I had the chance.

there is a remarkable difference in the stance they assume, and the behavior they display.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jan 2013 20:32

Those who counter and support the rapists must be listed and monitored. They must be part of a larger gang network

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jan 2013 20:36

Sushupti wrote:‘Victim was brain dead when shifted abroad’

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/vic ... oc.twitter

Big deal. The entire government was brain dead when they shifted her and shafted her at the same time.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Jan 2013 20:39

delhi police is in cover up mode - for their negligence and lack of interest in policing. the netas are in cover up mode for encouraging that environment to exist

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jan 2013 21:11

SaiK wrote:
shiv wrote: I know several good IPS officers, but they are at the mercy of state politicians, who are in cahoots with criminals like land mafia or mining mafia.
shiv ji, honestly what is your solution for this?

There is no single solution. I notice that India remains a society where patronage is given out and valued.

You have a problem and I offer to solve it for you by talking to the local politician. He helps me out. He gets more respect from me and I get more respect from you. But the favor that I got for you through him is an out of turn gas connection or allotment of a housing plot. Some other guy has suffered but none of us gives a damn. In a law respecting non-patronage society this would not happen. I cannot help you using my influence with politico and he cannot help me using his power to do something illegal.

I get patients who are officials in various government departments and they offer me help in various ways. They are offering me things out of politeness, respect and gratitude because that is how Indian society works. We work by "influencing" key people - not by the working of an efficient government machinery. So only people with influence get things done. The others can go screw themselves.

No Indian with power will ever do anything that will reduce his influence and his ability to bestow favours on others. He is not interested in regular democratic functioning, but working like a king who must be respected by those around him for the favours he does for them

disha · Post by **disha** » 07 Jan 2013 21:55

Sushupti wrote:....
http://rajeev2004.blogspot.ca/

That is a wrong image and has been discussed here before. Further the lady in the hospital looks to be an african-american with "caucasian" doctor and "african-american" nurse in the same room - I think that is rare in S'gpore. That indicates the photo in the inset is fake. Hakimji also attested that the medical procedures in the photo are fake.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Jan 2013 21:57

^ that is a great point Shivji

Looks like the 'reformed' Theos of India want to keep it that way even if some Hindu fanatic NM types want to offer an efficient governance. They hide their sycophancy under the colorful burkhas called castism, secularism etc

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jan 2013 21:57

^this must be bold and gold.. and preserved as a sticker thread. This is the fundamental cultural problem that is core to all peripheral problems we have established for living. Any amount of solution space, will have to bear this core issue. If this culture is cleansed, we have solved 98% of our problems.

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Jan 2013 22:06

RamaY wrote:^ that is a great point Shivji

Looks like the 'reformed' Theos of India want to keep it that way even if some Hindu fanatic NM types want to offer an efficient governance. They hide their sycophancy under the colorful burkhas called castism, secularism etc

Arrey Shiv sir did not mean that. Not everything is NM vs G family.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 07 Jan 2013 22:10

SaiK wrote:^this must be bold and gold.. and preserved as a sticker thread. This is the fundamental cultural problem that is core to all peripheral problems we have established for living. Any amount of solution space, will have to bear this core issue. If this culture is cleansed, we have solved 98% of our problems.

The culture change is a slow thing. A lot of social reforms did happen and they are still happening. The governance change is a medium term achievable thing if the people start realizing that their votes and involvment will change.

The only problem is the line of discussion when a sensational rape or sensational murder happens(or deliberately sensationalized by vested interests):
(1) We need quickly westernize, chritianize and xxxize the whole population so that some sort of basic-needs hunger will go away
(2) Restirct the whole changing society

The pendulum is on the extremes. The one side does not even want to discuss what could a victim do to not get into situation (practical stuff and not ideal stuff) before the society change reaches a respectable level. The other side is rigid enough to not discuss how to deal with the changing society.

In the midst no one focuses on what could be done minimum such as police reforms, immediate response system, local vigillante systems by women etc. Though this is discussed the main and sensationalized focus is all about Skirts Vs 10 yard sarees or religious Babas Vs cleavage (rightfully and democratically though) displaying women rights fighters.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Jan 2013 22:19

negi, 2 + 2 = 5,6,7...n for some people.

But that was a great post by Shiv. Can someone add to the top of "best posts" thread as a sticky. If we fix this then 100% of issues aam aadmi face in India will go away in good measure. No more analysis is required for any problems.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 07 Jan 2013 22:21

@Shiv ^^^

"No Indian with power will ever do anything that will reduce his influence and his ability to bestow favours on others. He is not interested in regular democratic functioning, but working like a king who must be respected by those around him for the favours he does for them"

Another postor on this thread mentioned a bike accident in Delhi where he had to invoke his relationship with someone else important to hold the crowd at bay etc.

On another level in India, the usual thing to get something out of turn is "Mera baap...etc."

Just saying, in the US of A, the best way to make sure you get cuffed and get to do the perp walk is to say "Do you know who I am?". Cops live for this moment

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 07 Jan 2013 22:25

shiv wrote:
No Indian with power will ever do anything that will reduce his influence and his ability to bestow favours on others. He is not interested in regular democratic functioning, but working like a king who must be respected by those around him for the favours he does for them

I know of people who have given up a chance for betterment and fought the system. Usually they have been hounded out but they have done what they thought right. So please dont generalize in this way though majority either join the 'system' in perpetuating the wrongs, or assist by merely looking the other way.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jan 2013 22:28

Sushupti wrote:‘Victim was brain dead when shifted abroad’

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/vic ... oc.twitter

Confirms the mendacity of those who made the decision to shift her to Singapore after she was brain dead :both sarkari doctors and the IAS and politicians.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jan 2013 22:41

viv wrote:
shiv wrote:
No Indian with power will ever do anything that will reduce his influence and his ability to bestow favours on others. He is not interested in regular democratic functioning, but working like a king who must be respected by those around him for the favours he does for them
I know of people who have given up a chance for betterment and fought the system. Usually they have been hounded out but they have done what they thought right. So please dont generalize in this way though majority either join the 'system' in perpetuating the wrongs, or assist by merely looking the other way.

I am not reading it that way. Generalization is another aspect.. but we can't hide under those honest afsars and gentlemen behind who can't do anything to the nation, because of the core problem shiv just narrated.

What viv you are pointing is also true, but they have been rendered useless and disrespected by the larger setup. Hence, you are thinking it as generalization of the negatives.. but I would say, you consider those people as specialization rather and leave it there, and pray they stay the same.

Of course, in many generalizations, there are always exceptions.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Jan 2013 22:42

negi wrote:
RamaY wrote:^ that is a great point Shivji

Looks like the 'reformed' Theos of India want to keep it that way even if some Hindu fanatic NM types want to offer an efficient governance. They hide their sycophancy under the colorful burkhas called castism, secularism etc
Arrey Shiv sir did not mean that. Not everything is NM vs G family.

Life is not a single dimensional well as learned under each scientific field.

Society is a multi-dimensional time-space wrap. It needs to be understood thus.

If an understanding of one dimension is logical, that knowledge can be applied to better understand the society and implications of certain world-views.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Jan 2013 22:45

Bade wrote:negi, 2 + 2 = 5,6,7...n for some people.

But that was a great post by Shiv. Can someone add to the top of "best posts" thread as a sticky. If we fix this then 100% of issues aam aadmi face in India will go away in good measure. No more analysis is required for any problems.

Get out of "koopastha manduka" world view my "scientific" friend!

This is the understanding science teaches. Biology has no relationship with psychology which has no relationship with sociology which has no relationship with astronomy which has no relationship with food we eat and so on...

Children of such scientific society are the ones who came up with sex-identification techniques and virginity tests.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Jan 2013 22:49

viv wrote: I know of people who have given up a chance for betterment and fought the system. Usually they have been hounded out but they have done what they thought right. So please dont generalize in this way though majority either join the 'system' in perpetuating the wrongs, or assist by merely looking the other way.

Indeed, there is no shortage of people who have both given up their advantages for the country, willingly as well no shortage of people who have worked with, and if needed fought with the negatives of the system.

Sure things are bad, but what is happening here is that specific crimes of a few are being diluted in terms of general breast beating about India -- basically letting the actual perps of the hook.

Its a familiar pattern.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Jan 2013 22:51

RamaY, my koopmanduka world view within "science" is a far better option than your random psycho-babble and droppings like this one.

This is the understanding science teaches. Biology has no relationship with psychology which has no relationship with sociology which has no relationship with astronomy which has no relationship with food we eat and so on...

For another thread not this one. Shiv's point was clear and concise and verifiable. Your political twist or appendage to that of NM vs G is laughable with no logical continuity. This thread has become the thread of political outrage onlee.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Jan 2013 22:58

Bade wrote:RamaY, my koopmanduka world view within "science" is a far better option than your random psycho-babble and droppings like this one.

This is the understanding science teaches. Biology has no relationship with psychology which has no relationship with sociology which has no relationship with astronomy which has no relationship with food we eat and so on...

For another thread not this one. Shiv's point was clear and concise and verifiable. Your political twist or appendage to that of NM vs G is laughable with no logical continuity. This thread has become the thread of political outrage onlee.

Bade,

You are trying to use narrow-minded Scientific world-view on a more fractal like social situation. You may be good in some "science", but that doesn't solve the social problem we are talking about.

My point is very related to this thread. Shivji was talking about a "possible" solution. And I am referring him a challenge that was thrown on the very "society" that led to Delhi rape and the following government inaction/wrong-action in another thread.

It is you who went OT with your 2+2 math.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 07 Jan 2013 22:59

Sanku wrote: Indeed, there is no shortage of people who have both given up their advantages for the country, willingly as well no shortage of people who have worked with, and if needed fought with the negatives of the system.

Sure things are bad, but what is happening here is that specific crimes of a few are being diluted in terms of general breast beating about India -- basically letting the actual perps of the hook.

Its a familiar pattern.

+1000.

I am getting sick of these rape threads in both Strat and Gufa forum too. I think we have 20+ pages on all threads and may be it is time to close some of them.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Jan 2013 23:11

RamaY, you made a political statement, and you are not the first to do so in this thread. In the NM vs G comment, it does stand out. The proof should come with the claim. If under the NM admin crime, rape stats in Ahmedabad or entire Gujarat is far better than other party ruled states, then you have a point. Can you back it up with statistics ? If you can then we can discuss.

I do wish the outcome of such a comparison will come out positively, as I would want him to succeed as much as you do. But all I see is reflexive comments from you.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jan 2013 23:22

X-Posted for completeness.

ramana wrote:Lilo, How does your data compare with this map from IBN?

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/rape-map-of- ... 62-53.html

Please check the map.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 07 Jan 2013 23:41

Bade wrote: If under the NM admin crime, rape stats in Ahmedabad or entire Gujarat is far better than other party ruled states, then you have a point. Can you back it up with statistics ? If you can then we can discuss.

This kind of stats is probably more suited for the 'Solutions for Crime against Women' thread than this one...but Gujarat does have the LOWEST number of rapes per capita among all states in the country.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Jan 2013 23:54

Bade wrote:RamaY, you made a political statement, and you are not the first to do so in this thread. In the NM vs G comment, it does stand out. The proof should come with the claim. If under the NM admin crime, rape stats in Ahmedabad or entire Gujarat is far better than other party ruled states, then you have a point. Can you back it up with statistics ? If you can then we can discuss.

I do wish the outcome of such a comparison will come out positively, as I would want him to succeed as much as you do. But all I see is reflexive comments from you.

& Shivji post was not a political statement?

You see what you want to see, exactly the same way I do. What we want to see is the real question.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jan 2013 00:01

RamaY, I do not see Shiv's statement the way you do, honestly. I went back and re-read it again. This is not to say that he like many others cannot be political. But what he wrote made eminent sense to me. I even assumed, when you commented on that with the comparison you were claiming, this is what NM is aiming to do or has achieved already. But now you say Shiv made a political statement. Confused onlee !

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 08 Jan 2013 00:22

RamaY: Some of us elsewhere, had called this a societal failure - collective responsibility, while you opposed our views and went on to use "collective punishment" term (a strawman argument). Here Shiv has put the onus on to the same entity - the society; and you readily agreed with his position here. You are right, we see what we want to see. And, most importantly the messenger is always important.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Jan 2013 00:26

Kauravongress to defend Draupdi

Cong asks Asaram Bapu to withdraw his comments

Lewd Delhi: Congress on Monday asked Asaram Bapu to withdraw his remark suggesting that the Delhi gang-rape victim was equally responsible for the crime.
It is unfortunate that responsible people are making such statements. Some strange statements are coming from some quarters. They should refrain from making such remarks and withdraw the remarks," Congress spokesman P C Chacko told reporters. He was asked to comment on Asaram Bapu's remarks suggesting that the Delhi gangrape victim was equally responsible for the crime and she could have called her the assailants brothers and begged them to sto

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Jan 2013 00:27

This is even more beautiful so Shiv sir makes a very generic observation which is somehow filtered and tinted via NM vs G lens and Bade is being blamed for suffering from Koopah-mandookah syndrome, bahut insafi hai ye to.

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Jan 2013 00:29

Btw what is this asking to withdraw statement business ? Tommorrow I will call someone a mofo and then claim to withdraw it how convenient.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Jan 2013 00:34

shiv wrote:
There is no single solution. I notice that India remains a society where patronage is given out and valued.

You have a problem and I offer to solve it for you by talking to the local politician. He helps me out. He gets more respect from me and I get more respect from you. But the favor that I got for you through him is an out of turn gas connection or allotment of a housing plot. Some other guy has suffered but none of us gives a damn. In a law respecting non-patronage society this would not happen. I cannot help you using my influence with politico and he cannot help me using his power to do something illegal.

I get patients who are officials in various government departments and they offer me help in various ways. They are offering me things out of politeness, respect and gratitude because that is how Indian society works. We work by "influencing" key people - not by the working of an efficient government machinery. So only people with influence get things done. The others can go screw themselves.

No Indian with power will ever do anything that will reduce his influence and his ability to bestow favours on others. He is not interested in regular democratic functioning, but working like a king who must be respected by those around him for the favours he does for them

All societies work this way. There is natural bond and affinity among members of the social groups. In some societies the doctors are held in high esteem and they are given favors for help.

Even in US it is the same thing among the people in the society. They are buddies in the YMCA, fitness clubs, country clubs, golf clubs, rotary clubs etc and favors are given and new business are done. This is normal in any open society where relations are built and it expands. Big countries need new relations and networks to be built since new generations become members of the productive society

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 08 Jan 2013 00:42

Jhujar wrote:Kauravongress to defend Draupdi

Cong asks Asaram Bapu to withdraw his comments
Lewd Delhi: Congress on Monday asked Asaram Bapu to withdraw his remark suggesting that the Delhi gang-rape victim was equally responsible for the crime.
It is unfortunate that responsible people are making such statements. Some strange statements are coming from some quarters. They should refrain from making such remarks and withdraw the remarks," Congress spokesman P C Chacko told reporters. He was asked to comment on Asaram Bapu's remarks suggesting that the Delhi gangrape victim was equally responsible for the crime and she could have called her the assailants brothers and begged them to sto

This is purely political. Looks like Bapu has obliged congis.
Asaram Bapu is at loggerheads with NaMo. NaMo has been strict with all religious people whether Hindu or ,uslim or christian in all parts of Gujarat. There have some activities including lands, murder etc in his ashram. NaMo is allowing law to catch up with it.
Congis have sent feelers to bapu and supported him indirectly. Asaram bapu has threatened NaMo in the recent elections that he will not win elections.
congis have nothing to lose by siding with Bapu, helping him in his cases . In the end Bapu will lose as CBI will have a huge dossier on him.
Congis is playing a double game here.

Media is as usual deflecting from the actual problem beseiging our population esp women and turning to these idiots for sound bites.
congis laughing all the way.
How true "shri" Shinde said- all will be forgotten.