Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jul 2015 21:14

Nice Picture of 2 P-15A and 1 P-15 in middle

http://cdn2.img.sputniknews.com/images/ ... 703323.jpg

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jul 2015 21:22

Cain Marko wrote:What I am not sure of is this piecemeal order tradition..why just three when more are obviously needed. Is it because of the new design or because of the novel approach?

Whats the point in ordering 10 in first lot if you are limited by the shipyards that can build it , the numbers it can build at a time ( berthing space etc ) , the number it can refit post hull launch and the man power need to all this , not to mention the supply chain involving foreign and indian OEM's

The IN order is limited to the facility available at PSU yard , even for a small number of 3 the SY delays it by 2x time and cost escalation is 3x , you can imagine if Navy puts the money for 10 of these in first lot and then has to wait for 10-15 years to get the last of the 10

Things might change when private yards join the party then the Navy can look to order says 4-5 divided between PSU and Private SY

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 16 Jul 2015 21:37

Austin wrote:Nice Picture of 2 P-15A and 1 P-15 in middle

http://cdn2.img.sputniknews.com/images/ ... 703323.jpg

Any news on Kochi induction?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 16 Jul 2015 21:37

amit wrote:
deejay wrote:^^^

Traitor / Incompetent is not how I would describe Mr. Ambani or his team. Please do not jump to conclusions. Neither is it dhoti shivering but a fairly well understood position.

I just hope his / their approach to defence contracts are different than to other contracts.

Aha I see!

I guess you can't argue with something like this: "fairly well understood position".

More power to your understanding. And no shivering please!

I am not dhoti shivering (premature for that), but I am concerned. I am unable to trust the ventures of Ambanis. Since it is my alleged dhoti shivering, so the post is also about why I am concerned and I hope you will bear with this approach.

Agreed my earlier post was - did not want to get into this - it was only a 'google' away, or I am lazy so you do the research kind of statement. Anyways, would appreciate some backing off from the high horse Amit ji.

My concern with Anil Ambani led ADAG (infact even if it was MDAG) is simple -

a)The propensity to keep the rule book aside. Whether it is the 2G scandal, insider trading and SEBI specifically barring Anil Ambani from investing in listed share plus other hack jobs in the Stock Market, the meeting (so far alleged) with CBI Director Ranjit Sinha in connection with the 2G scam etc are just a trace of how he operates.

There are numerous links on this, try googling "Anil Ambani Scams". A phamous Yak Herder suggested this approach. One of the links that will come up is a wiki entry (I know, I know - wiki is not reliable). This entry focuses on both the brothers so its not exclusively Anil Ambani. However, it is a start and this link is not exhaustive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Reliance_scams

Outside of this wiki entry, the catalogue of errors is big and so far all that has come out has come out in the UPA era (except for the CBI director part). Many more skeletons may come out. He has his hand in a lot of pies.

Additionally, Anil Ambani is not really doing a sterling job of setting up new businesses very successfully, unlike his elder brother. Here, I am subjective but let me bring to your attention his ventures like Big Entertainment. His relationships with political class, including but not limited to his MP seat on an SP ticket is also something which does not sit well with me. There were allegations of the surplus coal allocation on the Sasan Ultra Mega Power Project. The RComm story is also murky first with the 2G spectrum - Swan telecom story and then with the TRAI observation of incorrect active Subscriber data.

There is also an existing huge debt but the Sasan project may help his group to overcome this. You may read more on these here (it is a bit dated) http://www.projectstoday.com/InThePress ... _well.html

Additionally, I think Anil Ambani walking out of the Mumbai Metro Line 2 project in 2014, nearly 05 years after winning the contract is another minus on the credibility (This is my view only). Though, Anil Ambani's Reliance Infrastructure claimed non fulfillment of various obligations by State Government, it should be clear to all that these big projects come with their complications. People bidding for these contracts must be aware and prepared for such challenges. A contractor walking out 05 years after being awarded with the contract is massive loss of time at least. I hope IN does not go through such trials and tribulations. Link on this:http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-a ... -2-2034936

There is also the case of Anil Ambani wanting to increase Mumbai Metro fare three folds due to cost over runs. Even if the fare increase was justified, the amount of increase was questionable. Read here:http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... metro-fare

Should the IN be prepared for this Anil Ambani style. Cost overruns, time overruns are common, I am concerned about the scale. There is history here.

This particular project is a defence related project and if Mr. Ambani does continue on his usual path, the IN will have 03 ships stuck because of some impropriety. So, I hope they have a different approach to this project.

Edit: Corrected link

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 16 Jul 2015 23:09

^^ I am with deejay-da on this one. I do not care about the corruption, that comes with the territory. In fact we need them to keep the assorted Natashas out.

It is his capability part where I am doubtful. I would not mind Mukesh Bhai. He is proven category.

Little bro is too much into Relcom, Reliance Natural Resources, Delhi Power Supply category to have mental peace.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 16 Jul 2015 23:20

Austin wrote:Nice Picture of 2 P-15A and 1 P-15 in middle

http://cdn2.img.sputniknews.com/images/ ... 703323.jpg

There appears to be a Talwar class behind the right P15A

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 16 Jul 2015 23:32

Why I not like the Ambanis are -

1. Ad Dee Jay Sir said - They will throw the rule book out to suite their interest/ego. If it hurts the country, too bad
2. They have shown no tech innovation/discovery of their own, buying a petroleum distillation unit or a national telecom gear from outside is one thing, developing one at home is all together different. At right price, a petroleum unit can be bought, but engine tech cannot be.
3. They will kill all the competition, mostly by foul method.

They are a bhasmashura, stay away in defense from them.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jul 2015 04:15

Deejay sir, you are truly an officer and a gentleman. What a polite and referenced reply to an obnoxious post.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 17 Jul 2015 04:22

Interesting news article with details, hence posting in full. My apologies if already posted:

India specifies 65,000-tonne aircraft carrier, with catapult

For the first time, the size and specifications of the Indian Navy's future aircraft carrier have been officially acknowledged. The navy has written to at least four major global shipbuilders, asking for proposals to help in designing a 65,000 tonne carrier that would be about 300 metres long.

The letter of request, issued by the Indian Navy on Wednesday, specifies the carrier should be capable of speeds greater than 30 knots (56 km per hour). However, it is silent on whether it prefers nuclear propulsion, or conventional diesel or gas turbines.

The navy's letter states the carrier will embark 30-35 fixed wing combat aircraft, and about 20 rotary wing aircraft (helicopters). It would have a catapult to launch fixed wing aircraft, which would make the carrier a "catapult launched but arrested landing", or CATOBAR vessel. For India's naval aviators, this would involve a major change from a long tradition of getting airborne from a "ski-jump" at the end of the flight deck.

While not mandating an "electromagnetic aircraft launch system" (EMALS), the navy has specifically mentioned it as an option. The United States Navy's latest carrier, the 100,000-tonne USS Gerald R Ford, which will be commissioned next year, is the world's only current carrier featuring EMALS. This uses an electromagnetic rail gun to accelerate aircraft to take-off velocity, instead of the conventional steam-driven catapults that have been used for 60 years.

The navy's letter has gone out to US company, Lockheed Martin; UK company, BAE Systems, French shipbuilder, DCNS, and Rosoboronexport, the Russian export umbrella agency.

The letter pertains to the vessel that is commonly referred to as the "indigenous aircraft carrier number 2", or IAC-2. Currently, Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) is building IAC-1, a 40,000-tonne carrier named INS Vikrant, which is scheduled to be commissioned in 2018.

INS Viraat will supplement INS Vikramaditya, the 45,000-tonne carrier bought from Russia, which was formerly named the Gorshkov. Another, older carrier, INS Viraat, is expected to be retired by the end of this decade.

For years, the biggest guessing game around the Indian Navy's future force has been: Will IAC-2 be a massive, EMALS-equipped, nuclear-powered super carrier, developed in partnership with America? So far, admirals have been close-mouthed, saying the process of formulating specifications is underway.

Now, the guessing game is already shifting to: Which shipbuilder does the navy's specification favour? The US remains the leading horse, not just because it is the world's most experienced and technologically advanced carrier operator with more aircraft carriers in service than the rest of the world combined.

There is also a US-India "working group", constituted during President Barack Obama's visit to India in January, specifically to promote cooperation in aircraft carrier technology. New Delhi and Washington are known to have discussed EMALS under the rubric of the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI).

Yet, there could be others in the race. Vendors point out that the specifications framed bear similarities to the French aircraft carrier, Charles de Gaulle (in terms of speed and size, though not in displacement), and the British Queen Elizabeth II (in terms of displacement and size, though not in speed).

Surprisingly, the navy's letter allows the foreign vendors just one week to respond, demanding a reply by July 22. The reply is required to contain costing elements along with the proposal.

"This involves evaluating a consultative, hand-holding process that will last at least a decade. There is no way anyone can produce a detailed cost proposal in such a short time," complains a senior executive with one of the foreign vendors.

Experts have begun evaluating the implications of the navy's specifications. It is pointed out that asking for 25-30 fighters and 20 helicopters on a 65,000 tonne, 300-metre-long carrier would limit the size of the aircraft on the ship. If heavy fighters are to be a part of the ship's complement, it would need to be bigger; if the MiG-29K is retained, it would need a foldable nose to occupy less hangar space.

It is also pointed out that specifying a speed in excess of 30 knots eliminates certain forms of propulsion, notably an all-electric drive, which is environment friendly and economical.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 17 Jul 2015 04:42

Why does one need EMALS for a QE-II class carrier with only 25-30 fighter aircrafts. Isn't it an overkill ? If they have fixed the size at 65k tonnes maybe the idea is to order another one or two more ten years down the road to make 5 carriers. We really are not there yet to build a 90k+ with EMALS for our immediate needs over the next 2-3 decades. The decision can be made later depending on the economy and other security threats as they emerge.

They might as well order a second Vikrant and save the time as CSL had sent feelers out.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 17 Jul 2015 05:11

Karan M wrote:Deejay sir, you are truly an officer and a gentleman. What a polite and referenced reply to an obnoxious post.

Deejay Saheb:

I share your apprehensions about Ambani, but what to do? He owns Pipavav now, and Pipavav is the largest shipyard in the private sector. Putting its capacity to proper use will help the Navy build up numbers quickly.

I am sure the present GOI is quite aware of Ambani's potential as well as pitfalls. Hopefully they will distribute orders for different types of naval equipment widely among the public and private shipyards. Granting a monopoly to Ambani among the private sector will be dangerous, but if L&T, Tata, Mahindra also get substantial orders, then I would not be so worried.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jul 2015 07:35

there will not be 20 helicopters. there is no need for that on a air defene/strike carrier. there will be around 4 small ones for plane guard and utility and maybe another 4 for ASW duty but rest all AWACS and fighters.

these carriers always have ffg/ddg escort in our case all carry 2 ASW helos. so coverage is not a problem.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Jul 2015 08:07

Anil Ambani Lining up Rs 5000 Crore More in Pipavav Shipyard

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Jul 2015 08:45

Karan M wrote:Deejay sir, you are truly an officer and a gentleman. What a polite and referenced reply to an obnoxious post.

+1....in true form sir, respect. More posters need to take a leaf from this...

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Jul 2015 08:50

Austin wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:What I am not sure of is this piecemeal order tradition..why just three when more are obviously needed. Is it because of the new design or because of the novel approach?
Whats the point in ordering 10 in first lot if you are limited by the shipyards that can build it , the numbers it can build at a time ( berthing space etc ) , the number it can refit post hull launch and the man power need to all this , not to mention the supply chain involving foreign and indian OEM's

The IN order is limited to the facility available at PSU yard , even for a small number of 3 the SY delays it by 2x time and cost escalation is 3x , you can imagine if Navy puts the money for 10 of these in first lot and then has to wait for 10-15 years to get the last of the 10

Things might change when private yards join the party then the Navy can look to order says 4-5 divided between PSU and Private SY

Problem is that such small orders continue with more experienced foreign yards too...talwars are an example. instead of 3+3+3, 3+6 might have been cheaper and provided faster induction..

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Jul 2015 09:08

Kakkaji wrote:
Karan M wrote:Deejay sir, you are truly an officer and a gentleman. What a polite and referenced reply to an obnoxious post.
Deejay Saheb:

I share your apprehensions about Ambani, but what to do? He owns Pipavav now, and Pipavav is the largest shipyard in the private sector. Putting its capacity to proper use will help the Navy build up numbers quickly.

I am sure the present GOI is quite aware of Ambani's potential as well as pitfalls. Hopefully they will distribute orders for different types of naval equipment widely among the public and private shipyards. Granting a monopoly to Ambani among the private sector will be dangerous, but if L&T, Tata, Mahindra also get substantial orders, then I would not be so worried.

Kakkaji, despite my apprehensions, I agree that the Ambani's will be big investors in the defence sector as Make In India starts getting off the blocks. They have the financial ability which will be hard to match by any other private investor in India. So I remain concerned but pragmatism dictates accepting their presence.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 17 Jul 2015 09:19

The navy's letter has gone out to US company, Lockheed Martin; UK company, BAE Systems, French shipbuilder, DCNS, and Rosoboronexport, the Russian export umbrella agency.

The letter pertains to the vessel that is commonly referred to as the "indigenous aircraft carrier number 2", or IAC-2. Currently, Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) is building IAC-1, a 40,000-tonne carrier named INS Vikrant, which is scheduled to be commissioned in 2018.

Eh what? Why send an RFI to Lockheed Martin but nothing to Northrop Grumman i.e. the company that owns the shipyards that built the Nimitz and are building the new Ford class carriers?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Jul 2015 09:43

Cain Marko wrote: Problem is that such small orders continue with more experienced foreign yards too...talwars are an example. instead of 3+3+3, 3+6 might have been cheaper and provided faster induction..

The way they order when it comes to foreign yard is 3 with the option to buy 3 more , that keep the cost part down and thats for any order for armed forces not just IN , The order for Indian SY is more in terms of firm orders.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 17 Jul 2015 11:47

Facts -

1. We've seen Indian Navy statements for the last many years. None of them refer to any additional requirements Project 1135.6 ships.

While Type 1135.6 ships are good, Type 17A & Type 15A are better carrying two helicopters, better radars (Elta 2248) missiles (Active homing LRSAM), most importantly, have much better range/endurance. The designs owned by IN DND is provided to shipyards like MDL & GRSE for FREE.

2. There were Russian publications reporting offers made by Russians in various capacities. However, no IN interest was seen to these offers.

3. Fleet replacement - This decade (2010-2020), 3 Type 16 and 5 Type 61M ships will be decommissioned as they reach the end of their 30 year life. Typically life of a ship is 20 years extended by refits to 30 years. However, 3 Type 17, 3 Type/Project 15A, 4 Project 15B and 7 Project 17A ships are either commissioned or under construction. These 17 ships adequately cover 8 decommissionings.

4. Fleet Growth - As mentioned above, 9 additional ships over and above decommissionings replacements are under construction. India needs nuclear & conventional submarines, not surface ships.

5. New Type 1135.6 ships will not be quickly built. The chosen shipyard will need to learn construction methods. Additional infrastructure needs to be created. 8 years projected is not a short timeframe.

6. A small shipyard was acquired by a large conglomerate, and the Russians selected it as their partner. However, that is not meaningful to the discussion as to why four free & better domestic designs (17, 17A, 15A, 15B) were not chosen over an older foreign design. Why not "Designed in India" in addition to "Make in India"?

7. Now, there were reports by Ajai Shukla of a meeting between Heads of States, where a repeat offer was made and taken up.

So in light of this, will those members alleging Natasha's were used to influence this transaction, kindly and rightfully direct their allegations to our Nation's Executive Leadership who worked out this transaction under the guise of "Make in India"?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 17 Jul 2015 12:07

Shreeman wrote:DND more or less stops at the hull. All the rest is imported.

No, not quite. Weapons Electronics Systems Engineering Establishment (WESEE) decides weapons, sensors & other systems. All CMS is designed by WESEE and built by BEL.

Shreeman wrote:Also Navy probably had zero control over the ATV development.

No, its a 100% Navy run project under Prime Minister's Office.

Shreeman wrote:Or IAC funding

Correct, annual funding comes from Ministry of Finance Annual Union Budget on request from Ministry of Defence.

Typically if Rs 100 is required for a project over 10 years, with a split of Rs 10 every year, then after financial sanctioning, only Rs 10 is paid for the first year. Next year's budget will allocate money for the next year. The UPA diverted IAC funding to its election sops projects.

amit · Post by **amit** » 17 Jul 2015 12:14

deejay wrote:Kakkaji, despite my apprehensions, I agree that the Ambani's will be big investors in the defence sector as Make In India starts getting off the blocks. They have the financial ability which will be hard to match by any other private investor in India. So I remain concerned but pragmatism dictates accepting their presence.

Deejay since you wrote this post, let me quote from one of my previous posts:

I think it's pretty clear by now that the government wants L&T and Pipavav involved in shipbuilding with the former concentrating on submarines and the latter on surface vessels. In aerospace they want the Tatas and Mahindras to build expertise.

In this case I have no personal beef for Anil Ambani but I do object to this immediate assumption that where he's involved there has to be hanky panky. Look I know he and his brothers have used influence, money and everything in the book and some outside it to bag contracts. But nobody can fault their execution IMO.

Why prejudge them in this case? Pipavav has great infrastructure, maybe Ambani can make full use of it. If he can't well then we cross the bridge when we come to it.

Also I think he's far better equipped to handle Russian hanky panky than any of our public sector shipyard bosses. Also time overruns will result in lower profits, that's something IMO he'll try to prevent, even though as a first effort there could be some slippages.

Link

Don't you think your conclusion and mine are essentially the same? We cannot wish away the fact that he owns the biggest shipyard in the country which has far more capacity than our two government owned warship building shipyards.

Also, from my understanding, one of the major reasons for delays at Mazgoan and Garden Reach is powerful unionised workforce. I'm hoping labour productivity would be better at L&T and Pipavav.

The point is I don't want to pre-judge Ambani before he even starts this venture.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Jul 2015 12:48

The delivery of warships and subs has been much analysed in the recent past.part of the problem lies in the acquisition process of the MOD for components,etc.many from firang entities. Nothing to do with the DND,naval design team.Sometimes,the late development/supply of specific weaponry has also delayed delivery,like Barak-8,special steels,DDGs commissioned without SAMs! Yard infrastructure another issue,MDL v.short of space,acquiring xtra space elsewhere for fitting out. Then there are instances where the IN has made changes in the design,or late selection/approval of weapon systems.The ultimate approving authority is the MOD and of delayed decisions taken in the last decade,we know enough of! Nevertheless,it has been the IN that has however managed to build almost all of its fighting ships instead of imports,look at the import content of the inventory.The Gorky,6 Talwars and a few auxiliaries in recent years,that's all. Apartf rom aircraft though,but even here it has been plumping for the NLCA for a v.long time! Reduction in import content of weapon systems and sensors will take much longer.That is going to be a v.v.tough task as we still depend upon firang entities for naval SAMs,the JV for BMos,most anti-sub weaponry and sensors like TAS now being acquired from Germany.

A few reports:
http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2015/07/15/ind ... do-Russian naval cooperation: Sailing high seas[/b]
July 15, 2015 Petr Topychkanov

Military-technical collaboration between India and Russia has been most productive in building India’s strategic naval capabilities. While India has a variety of defence partners, only Russia has provided it with a strategic, nuclear depth and dimension.

The experience of Russian-Indian cooperation in the process of building the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya helped India initiate work on building the Vikrant aircraft carrier. Source: Sevmash

If we compare the three areas where there is military-technical cooperation between Russia and India; for the Army, the Air Force, and Naval requirements; the Navy’s is distinguished from the first two by its strategic character. It is quite clear that the cooperation began to take on this character during the Cold War years.

As early as the 1970s, India initiated a project to build strategic nuclear submarines. It was divided into three parts: reactor development, body design, and building nuclear warheads to place on submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBM) fitted on nuclear submarines.

Russia offers India a super submarine

The official launch of the Indian project to build nuclear submarines, also known as Advanced Technology Vessels (ATVs), however, happened only in 2009, when the dry dock in which the submarine had been built was filled with water; the submarine was called Arihant. Starting in 2012 and continuing through the present, this submarine has been undergoing a number of sea-trials. It may enter into service of the Indian Navy in 2016.

Soviet engineers were able to participate in the R&D for building the Indian nuclear-powered submarine insofar as they were engaged in the construction of the dockyard in Visakhapatnam (Vizag).

The Arihant was, to all appearances, among the first projects within the framework of which cooperation between Russia and India began in development and production not only of weapons for India’s Navy but also for India’s strategic system in general.

Russia and India are continuing to cooperate in the construction of this project’s next submarines. The laying of the second submarine, called Aridhaman, happened in 2011. The new sub may be launched into the water in 2015. The construction of two more submarines is underway (six are planned in all).

The knowledge that India gained by leasing of the Russian multi-purpose Project 971 Shchuka-B K-152 nuclear submarine ‘Shchuka-B’ (Chakra), which entered into service of the Indian Navy in 2012, plays a key role in their obtaining experience for the nuclear submarine fleet. Personnel are being trained on it who will serve on submarines of Indian manufacture in the future.

This is the second submarine that India has leased from Russia. The first was the Project 670 Shchuka-B Skat K-43 submarine, and it was also called “Chakra” in the Indian Navy. It was leased in 1988-1991.

It became known in late 2014 that Russia and India were negotiating the lease of a second K-322 Kashalot nuclear submarine of Project 971 Shchuka-B, which was in the Pacific Fleet in 1989-2003. After an upgrade at the Amur Shipyard, it may be transferred to India in 2018.

In the 1990s and 2000s, Russia and India also collaborated in other major projects for the Indian Navy. In 1997, Russia and India signed a construction contract for the supply of three Project 11356 frigates (patrol ships according to the Russian classification). These vessels are equipped with 100mm artillery installations, Klub-N attack anti-ship missile systems, Shtil medium-range anti-aircraft missile systems, torpedo launching tubes and rocket launchers.

The Talwar, Trishul and Tabar frigates entered the Indian Navy in 2003-2004. In 2006, Russia and India signed an agreement for the supply of three Project 11356 ships. The Teg, Tarkash and Trikand frigates entered the Navy in 2012-2013. The major difference between the second set and the first is the inclusion of launchers for Brahmos missiles.

Russian-Indian collaboration culminated in significant success with an aircraft carrier fleet. Russia and India signed a contract in 2004 on the transfer of the last aircraft carrier, the Admiral Gorshkov, after extensive modernization. The ship got a new name, Vikramaditya, and began first sea-trials in December 2012 and the second in June 2013. The aircraft carrier arrived in India in June 2014, when the official ceremony was held to induct it into the Indian Navy.

Along with extensive financial and organizational issues arising during the Vikramaditya’s refit, the main problem related to meeting all the Indian requests. State and private companies from both countries participated in the outfitting of the ship.

The experience of Russian-Indian cooperation in the process of building the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya helped India initiate work on building the Vikrant aircraft carrier, which began in 2009 (Nevskoe Design Bureau participated in its design). Vikrant was finally launched in the water on 10 June 2015. Its sea-trials may begin in 2017.

According to V. Komardin, Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport, Russia cooperated with India in the construction of the Vikrant for everything related to aviation equipment.

India keen on new ‘Shtil-1’ SAMs for Navy

For the Indian Navy’s marine aviation, Russia is supplying the ship-based multipurpose fighters MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB. The first contract for the supply of 16 jets of both modifications was signed in 2004, the second in 2010. The Russian Aviation Corporation MiG will supply the second batch in 2016.

These examples are nowhere near representative of all the projects implemented by Russia and India within the framework of military-technical cooperation for the Indian navy. These examples show the exclusivity of relations between Russia and India. India also has other partners. But none of them are prepared to develop strategic projects in the interests of India's nuclear submarine or aircraft carrier fleets.*( the US now with EMALS ,etc.)
[/quote]

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 90521.html

Pipavav Defence up 7% post naval frigate deal with Russia

The contract for the new frigates is likely to be in the form of a govt-to-govt order with Russia. The deal could be signed in this financial year and delivery is expected over the next 6-8 years.

Pipavav Defence moved up 7 percent in the stock market after a section of media reported that the Russian government has chosen Pipavav Shipyard for a 'Make in India' naval frigate. Reports suggest the order is likely to exceed USD 3 billion and Russia has officially informed the defense ministry about the decision. However, CNBC-TV18 has not verified the news.

The record deal is the first deal landed by Pipavav post takeover by Reliance Infra
The contract for the new frigates is likely to be in the form of a govt-to-govt order with Russia. The deal could be signed in this financial year and delivery is expected over the next 6-8 years.

Pipavav Defence stock price

On July 17, 2015, at 12:27 hrs Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering Company was quoting at Rs 63.10, up Rs 0.90, or 1.45 percent. The 52-week high of the share was Rs 85.00 and the 52-week low was Rs 34.40.

The latest book value of the company is Rs 26.73 per share. At current value, the price-to-book value of the company was 2.36.

PS:Reg. TSarkar's points,there are reports from as far back as 2012,where the IN reportedly approached Russia for 3 more Talwars.Here are a few on the need.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 002_1.html
Navy looks to Russia for three more frigates, as domestic shipyards lag

Xcpt:

To make up flagging warship numbers, the Indian Navy is initiating the purchase of three Grigorivich -class frigates (Project 1135.6) from Russia. These warships are improved variants of the six Talwar-class (Russian classification: Krivak-III ) frigates the navy obtained between 2003-13.

Those earlier vessels were built in Russia, in Yantar Shipyard at Kaliningrad, on the Baltic Sea. Now New Delhi insists the new frigates be built in an Indian shipyard.

Just two Indian shipyards have ever built a frigate - Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE).

With these two occupied with building seven stealth frigates under Project 17A, Yantar will partner a private Indian shipyard.

*More P-28s are also expected to be built.

Another 2012 report:
http://defenseblog-njs.blogspot.in/2012 ... gates.html

Vice Premier Dmitry Rogozin reported to Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev that India was about to purchase three additional Project 11356 frigates, reports ITAR-TASS. According to Rogozin, the parties are negotiating about the contract terms. India decided to buy additional frigates because it was satisfied with the quality of five ships of this class previously delivered to the national navy.

http://in.rbth.com/economics/2013/04/13 ... 23773.html

Russia is going to get a fresh order of building three more Talwar-class stealth frigates for India later this year which is likely to be worth $3 billion. The frigates have substantially enhanced Indian Navy’s firepower in the region mainly because of their stealth capabilities.

Knowledgeable sources told RIR that the Indians have already orally conveyed their in-principle decision to Russia to construct three more Talwar-class frigates. A formal contract is likely to be signed after Russia delivers to India the third and final Talwar-class stealth frigate INS Trikand, being built at the Yantar shipyard in Russia. The delivery is expected in June 2013.

The game-changer aspect of the Talwar class frigates is its stealth technology and a special hull design. These features enable the Talwar class frigates to be extremely useful in a wide range of missions like finding and eliminating enemy submarines and large surface ships. The Talwar-class frigates are the first Indian Navy warships to have stealth features.

http://www.sify.com/news/india-looking- ... agebe.html
India looking for more Talwar class ships: Navy vice chief.
Source : IANS

"As per the maritime perspective plan, we have to build a certain number of ships in a certain time...we are exploring the possibility to expedite (acquisition of) certain number of ships," he told reporters here.

Last Updated: Tue, Jul 14, 2015

The last quote makes it clear that the IN has a " maritime perspective plan " and has to build new ships according to its schedule. These are not just fro replacement of older warships like the G class,but ramping up the IN's fleet strength to 200 warships and subs by 2027. If one examines the IN's decision-making in recent times after the arrival of the Modi regime,one sees a balanced all-round acquisition plan and programme of large surface ships from carriers to corvettes ,subs-both nuclear and conventional/AIP,auxiliaries,aircraft both strike and MRP,helicopters and smaller surface craft.In addition,shore facilities are also being built for N-subs,new naval bases like the new one at porbandar,airstrips in the A&N islands,Lakshaweep,etc.,etc. The IN can be seen as perhaps having the most clear-cut plan for the future compared with the other two services,whose acquisition plans seem hampered by both funding and procurement .

A quote reg. warship constr. delays:

By August 2011 the major indigenous warship building projects of the Navy running behind schedule are Project-15A, Project-17 and Project-28. The cost escalation in these projects had been about 225% for Project-15A, about 260% for Project-17 and about 157% for Project-28. In the case of P-28, the Navy was using D40S/B-quality high tensile strength steel for construction of warships; however, due to high cost of import, indigenously developed DMR 249A steel was decided to be used on P-28 ships. However, there was delay in development of indigenous steel and associated complexities related to development of new weld consumables and welding techniques. The delay in identification of suitable propulsion package to meet stealth requirement of ships and delay in development of indigenous weapons and sensors also resulted in cost escalation.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/p-28.htm

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 17 Jul 2015 12:53

Austin wrote:Anil Ambani Lining up Rs 5000 Crore More in Pipavav Shipyard

I've serious doubts about ADAG's ability to deliver anything other than creative accounting.

Their attempt at taking over BSES and making Reliance Energy as a top infrastructure player competing with BHEL and L&T for projects has been a spectacular failure for similar reasons - low in content and high in creative accounting. Their Utility foray in Delhi's electricity market is faring quite differently to Tata's venture.

RCOM had made extensive use of cheap financing from Chinese banks. It was not basic trade financing for buying Chinese networking equipment but an extensive blank cheque. I always wonder for what? At different times they've courted Chinese majors and then MTN for a sellout (with Chinese partnership). Then there were Tower sale again with some Chinese angle.

While Pipavav may have gained skills to be considered capable of delivering naval platforms, I do not like this last minute swooping in of ADAG. Smells fishy!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Jul 2015 13:22

Answer: Enforce stiff penalties. Either Ambani or his Russian partners will have to pay up for delays/shortcomings which can be laid at the feet of the yard. The deal is now a fait accompli.We can only keep our fingers crossed that it will be a success. Mr.A will pull out all stops to ensure success,as it will give him a reputation that will make or break him for all his defence manufacturing ambitions not just warships.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 17 Jul 2015 14:11

While Pipavav may have gained skills to be considered capable of delivering naval platforms, I do not like this last minute swooping in of ADAG. Smells fishy!

private shipyard Pipavav is facing a stiff penalty from the Ministry of Defence over a significant delay in the production of naval patrol vessels,

http://www.businessinsider.in/Pipavav-S ... 955350.cms

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Jul 2015 14:18

JTull wrote: I've serious doubts about ADAG's ability to deliver anything other than creative accounting.

Their attempt at taking over BSES and making Reliance Energy as a top infrastructure player competing with BHEL and L&T for projects has been a spectacular failure for similar reasons - low in content and high in creative accounting. Their Utility foray in Delhi's electricity market is faring quite differently to Tata's venture.

I can vouch on this the utility bill if you opt for Reliance shoots up North and the difference is like 30-40 % more , consumption pattern being same after Reliance took over from BSES in Mumbai......they will suck out the last drop of Blood but to be fair their services are much better then what BSES used to be ..........hopefully here they suck out the Russian Blood and not the Navy's

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 17 Jul 2015 14:33

As mentioned in my earlier post, I would not mind Mukesh Bhai. The original RCOM execution had the similar aggression of his father in petrochem business. MI and ISL shows that he can make things from the left field successful without direct heavy hands on involvement. Kaveri Gas proves that he can play dirty without loosing ground to foreign vendors.

Chhota bhai does not show the similar promise at all. Everything he touches, wilts. It will be very very unfortunate for us if the biggest private shipyard is made sick by him.

@tsarkar, I think the location of Pipabhav had something to do with this particular 'make in india' project in the absence of pick up of investment cycle. Chhota bhai got wind of the same and squeeze in.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 17 Jul 2015 15:12

To add to my earlier post,

There was no Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) meeting chaired by Raksha Mantri approving either the need for ships or the recommendation of vendor or the approval of the project.

There was no Cabinet Committee of Security meeting chaired by Pradhan Mantri approving the procurement.

Can IN initiate the purchase without DAC meeting chaired by Raksha Mantri or CCS meeting chaired by Pradhan Mantri?

IN is not so powerful as to bypass these institutions. Unless someone high up is foisting it on IN.

A true test would be to see how rapidly DAC & CCS approval would be given retrospectively. Then we'll all know where Natasha's influence.

Philip-ji, with due respect, here is Ajai's report http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... l[quote]To make up flagging warship numbers, the Indian Navy is initiating the purchase of three Grigorivich -class frigates (Project 1135.6) from Russia. These warships are improved variants of the six Talwar-class (Russian classification: Krivak-III ) frigates the navy obtained between 2003-13.[/quote]
Numbers are not flagging, as explained earlier. Ajai wrote "navy obtained between 2003-13", not navy wanted more... The 6 frigates replaced the Nilgiri class ships.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Jul 2015 16:32

TSarkar,tx,I agree with you,but from 2012 the talk initiated by the IN for extra ships has been in the news.That is the main point I'm making,3-4 extra Talwars have been "cooking" in the IN's mind for some time.

I understand the Q/point you're making.Ideally,the IN would've wanted the ships built in Russia becos of delivery time,quality and price,but there is a new sheriff in town who has pasted a "make in India" bill on the saloon wall! So like "bottled in India Scotch",we're going to get "made in India" Talwars courtesy Reliance. No guesses as to their legendary powers of persuasion.They would've "made an offer you can't refuse".The CCS gives the final nod.

PS:Some good news.The Thais have suspended the sub-deal with China bowing to US pressure.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 Jul 2015 16:45

Why Can't we ask Chota Bhai to manufacture P-17s or P-15 series rather than putting lick of paint on imported Russian Maal

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Jul 2015 17:07

Orders already given to MDL and GRSE. Ni imports of Russian mal now.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Jul 2015 17:19

tsarkar wrote:To add to my earlier post,

There was no Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) meeting chaired by Raksha Mantri approving either the need for ships or the recommendation of vendor or the approval of the project.

There was no Cabinet Committee of Security meeting chaired by Pradhan Mantri approving the procurement. .

There was DAC and CCS meet recently which cleared many proposals, I think last week before PM proceeded on Central Asian tour.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Jul 2015 17:35

amit wrote:
deejay wrote:Kakkaji, despite my apprehensions, I agree that the Ambani's will be big investors in the defence sector as Make In India starts getting off the blocks. They have the financial ability which will be hard to match by any other private investor in India. So I remain concerned but pragmatism dictates accepting their presence.
Deejay since you wrote this post, let me quote from one of my previous posts:

I think it's pretty clear by now that the government wants L&T and Pipavav involved in shipbuilding with the former concentrating on submarines and the latter on surface vessels. In aerospace they want the Tatas and Mahindras to build expertise.

In this case I have no personal beef for Anil Ambani but I do object to this immediate assumption that where he's involved there has to be hanky panky. Look I know he and his brothers have used influence, money and everything in the book and some outside it to bag contracts. But nobody can fault their execution IMO.

Why prejudge them in this case? Pipavav has great infrastructure, maybe Ambani can make full use of it. If he can't well then we cross the bridge when we come to it.

Also I think he's far better equipped to handle Russian hanky panky than any of our public sector shipyard bosses. Also time overruns will result in lower profits, that's something IMO he'll try to prevent, even though as a first effort there could be some slippages.
Link

Don't you think your conclusion and mine are essentially the same? We cannot wish away the fact that he owns the biggest shipyard in the country which has far more capacity than our two government owned warship building shipyards.

Also, from my understanding, one of the major reasons for delays at Mazgoan and Garden Reach is powerful unionised workforce. I'm hoping labour productivity would be better at L&T and Pipavav.

The point is I don't want to pre-judge Ambani before he even starts this venture.

Amit ji,

I am concerned about Anil Ambani's involvement in defence sector for reasons mentioned earlier and some more. I do accept that my concern or similar concerns cannot deny them entry into this sector. Infact, the kind of financial muscle he brings, in a 1.20 billion population, there will be less than 10 who can match it, one of them his elder brother. So, pragmatism dictates accepting him and hoping all goes well.

I am not pre judging Anil Ambani but my concern is post - fact or past reputation earned over multiple projects.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Jul 2015 17:55

Mr.A says that he is plowing 5K crore into Pip for the same venture.

amit · Post by **amit** » 17 Jul 2015 18:05

deejay wrote:Amit ji,

I am concerned about Anil Ambani's involvement in defence sector for reasons mentioned earlier and some more. I do accept that my concern or similar concerns cannot deny them entry into this sector. Infact, the kind of financial muscle he brings, in a 1.20 billion population, there will be less than 10 who can match it, one of them his elder brother. So, pragmatism dictates accepting him and hoping all goes well.

I am not pre judging Anil Ambani but my concern is post - fact or past reputation earned over multiple projects.

Fair enough.

For better or for worse, the shipyard's success or otherwise in this particular venture to build 3 enhanced Talwars will be a sort of bellwether on whether large private sector conglomerates - with deep pockets - are successful in developing a thriving military industrial complex in India. By now it's pretty clear that the government owned entities have been a failure in this regard.

Personally I would havebeen more at ease if L&T had been the nodal agency for this venture, but what to do the Russian chose Pipavav and the government agreed to this decision.

One silver lining I think is that with this venture being a marquee effort in the government's Make in India push for defence manufacturing there will be plenty of oversight direct from the PMO, at least I would think that should be the case.

My last post on this topic.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 17 Jul 2015 18:08

chaanakya wrote:There was DAC and CCS meet recently which cleared many proposals, I think last week before PM proceeded on Central Asian tour.

This was not among them.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jul 2015 18:16

For better or for worse, the shipyard's success or otherwise in this particular venture to build 3 enhanced Talwars will be a sort of bellwether on whether large private sector conglomerates - with deep pockets - are successful in developing a thriving military industrial complex in India. By now it's pretty clear that the government owned entities have been a failure in this regard.

IMHO, not being too familiar, my concern would be the combo: Pipavav + Ambani + Russia. Just does not sound right. But, who knows.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Jul 2015 18:44

Pipavav isn't an Anil Ambani venture, he is merely the current owner, having acquired controlling stake a few months back.

The venture was started by a guy called Nikhil Gandhi, well known in the maritime business for years. It was set up nearly 10 years back, in expectations of large govt orders to the pvt sector. He also subsequently manage to rope in savvy investors into the company, including Rakesh Jhunjhunwala. By all accounts it is a really good yard, I have been told by multiple MDL veterans. Most importantly, unlike MDL, it's got space to scale up. Unfortunately, like many other large infra projects, they over leveraged and when expected orders did not materialise, they were in deep financial mess.

The Ambani bros have one core competence, manage the system. Given the nature of the business that defence is, it is a really good attribute to have. In the recent past, this ability of theirs has been called into question, they haven't really swung much in their favour - gas pricing, telecom license, banking license.

The simple point is that the yard infra is good, and they should be able to do a good job if orders come their way. At least that's the theory.

Ship yard work anyways is only around 20% of the value added in a warship. Most of the rest is the machinery, electronics and weapons.

Presence or absence of Anil Ambani should not change the overall economics of the ship, unless the yard doesn't perform as per expectations.

member_29119 · Post by **member_29119** » 17 Jul 2015 19:42

Finally way to go!!
Lungi dance
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indias-b ... eststories

nash · Post by **nash** » 17 Jul 2015 20:38

Four private shipyards among nine shortlisted for building aircraft carrier

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Is headline correct

?