Bharat Rakshak

Mostly Indian led counter Psyops at play by ensuring such media are spread all over the valley despite the SM ban currently in place

From profile of a local BJP MLA

https://www.facebook.com/vikram.randhawa.106
Surprise visit at Govt Middle School Kiryani Talab Narwal. Bala..Threatening atmosphere as most of the students belong to illegal immigrants Bangladeshes, Burmese and Rohingies..Matter of shame for Previous Govts.

All "teachers" seem to be muslim too. No wonder school is full of illegal muslim immigrants

twitter

1870s :: Khyber Pass

hanumadu wrote:^^So it is true that after the beheading of the soldiers, Indian army did destroy paki bunkers and killed their soldiers. Why did the Indian army deny the reports?

its an older event. not the current one.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/art-35-a- ... in-nature/
this is a write up on Art 35A. This article enables Art 370. But Parliament never passed it since when it was added to the Constitution in 1954 through a Presidential Order. So much for the dignity of Parliament and rule of Law. The basic rights of women, children of women who marry non J&K residents, Safai karamcharis who are refused any jobs other than Safai Karmacharis are brought out by this write up.

On May 14, 1954, the President of India issued an order called the Constitution (Application to Jammu and Kashmir) Order 1954. It came into effect immediately and superseded the Constitution (Application to Jammu and Kashmir) Order 1950.
Besides carrying out many modifications and changes, this presidential order ‘added’ to the Constitution of India, a new Article namely 35A as an amendment to Article 35. The 1954 order states it is being issued “in exercise of powers conferred by clause (1) of Article 370 of the Constitution, with the concurrence of the Government of Jammu and Kashmir”. No amendment in Indian Constitution can be done without Parliament without following procedures mentioned in Article 368.
Article 35A was never presented before Parliament of India. Unlike other amendments, it appears in the Constitution as an appendix and is not listed in the list of amendments either.
Article 35-A has discriminated Permanent Residents of Jammu and Kashmir instead of Protecting the Permanent Resident. But it is propagated that this provision is for the protection of Permanent Residents of J&K. This provision has multiplied the miseries of many people in J&K instead of protecting them. The main worst sufferers are:
Women Permanent Residents
Backed by Article 35-A Section 6 as adopted and strictly enforced by the State Government reads: (I) “Every person who is, or is deemed to be, a citizen of India under the provisions of the Constitution of India shall be a permanent resident of the State, if on the fourteenth day of May, 1954, (a) he was a state subject of class I or of class II, or (b) having lawfully acquired immovable property in the State, he has been ordinarily resident in the State for not less than ten years prior to this date” and (II) “any person who, before the fourteenth day of May, 1954 was a State Subject of class I or of class II and who, having migrated after the first day of March, 1947, to the territory – now included in Pakistan, returns to state under a permit for resettlement in the State or for permanent return issued by or under the authority of any law made by the State Legislature shall on such return be a permanent resident of the State”.
As for Sections 8 and 9, the former gives the State Legislature the right to define Permanent Residents and the latter empowers the State Legislature to alter the definition of Permanent Residents.

the basic nature of J&K Constitution has been altered rendering it discriminatory towards women who are reduced to chattels

All the laws framed by Maharaja Hari Singh or subsequent Government were Gender neutral. They defined the Permanent resident not Male permanent resident or female resident. But later on notwithstanding anything in PRC act the concept of “Valid Till Marriage” got introduced in it without any legal sanction.

the J&K high court intervened taking 28 years to deliver a judgement in the case titled State Of Jammu & Kashmir, Dr. ... vs Dr. Susheela Sawhney And State Of ... on 7 October, 2002 Equivalent citations: AIR 2003 J K 83, 2003 (1) JKJ 35

Up to 2002, the Revenue Department was issuing Permanent Resident Certificates (PRCs) to the female residents of Jammu and Kashmir with the endorsement as “Valid Till Marriage”. This became ground for a petition before the State High Court about 15 years back whereby selection of a doctor was challenged on the plea that she was married to non state subject.
The judgment of Single Judge whereby selection was quashed was challenged in the Division Bench of J&K High Court and keeping in view the involved legal issue a Full Bench comprising of Justice V Jhanji, Justice T Doabia and Justice M Jan was constituted.
The reference before the Full Bench was: “Whether the daughter of a permanent resident of the State of Jammu and Kashmir marrying a non-permanent resident loses her status as a permanent resident of State, to hold, inherit and acquire immovable property in the State?”
In view of the majority opinion, the Full Bench in a case titled Jammu and Kashmir Versus Dr Sushila Sawhney and Others held that a daughter of a permanent resident marrying a non-permanent resident will not lose the status of permanent resident of State of Jammu and Kashmir.
Though the State Government initially filed Special Leave Petition (SLP) in the Supreme Court against the verdict of Full Bench of J&K High Court but later withdrew the same after making an opinion that it will carry out necessary amendments in the Act governing issuance of PRCs.
In March 2004, an attempt was made by the PDP-led coalition government to bypass the High Court’s landmark judgment. It moved an official Bill after the tough stand of Hon’ble Supreme Court which was passed in a record 6 minutes.

the aftermath

But the Bill was declared “defeated” in the Legislative Council. The main reason was that the bill had created a storm in Jammu and at the national level as anti-women, reactionary and out-dated.
J&K High Court on four occasions delivered judgments aimed at ensuring gender equality. The judgments were unambiguous and were hailed by one and all.
Unnecessary confusion has been created to implement the judgement of Hon’ble High Court in Dr Susheela Sawney case and thereafter. After 15 years of Judgement the situation seems to be at the same point. Despite clear Judgement of Hon’ble High Court and law position a Committee has been constituted to deliberate on matters which are already settled. Central Govt cannot intervene because of Article 35-A.

and Art 35A which prevents the Central Government from intervening has even been passed by Parliament; which I suppose is necessary for Amending the Constitution

If a woman marries outside the state:
When women belonging to the state of Jammu-Kashmir marry outsiders, they cannot settle in the state even if the circumstances so demand.
A man from another state marrying J&K a woman cannot get PRC, hence none of the associated benefits. Which means he cannot buy land, cannot apply for a government job, his children cannot study in state-run professional colleges and institutes.
This means if a woman marries outside the state, she is virtually forced to leave the state and settle elsewhere. Earlier, such women used to completely lose the ‘permanent resident status’. But still her off springs and spouse don’t get PRC which is not there in case of male.
Now questions are:
* When Permanent resident law is gender neutral then how discrimination is being allowed to women in the name of gender?
* Are there any separate laws for male permanent residents?
* Whether Article 35-A was introduced to protect Permanent Residents or to discriminate?
* Is it not Human rights violation?
The most depressing story is that of safai karamcharis in Jammu-Kashmir.In 1957, around 200 Valmiki families were brought from Punjab to Jammu-Kashmir, following a cabinet decision, specifically to be employed as Safai Karamcharis (sweepers).
These families agreed to work in the state after being promised that the ‘permanent resident’ clause would be relaxed in their favour. After a lapse of five decades, family strength of each family has increased and number of employees has gone up. However, their plight is that they are ‘permanent residents’ of Jammu-Kashmir only to the extent of being Safai Karamcharis.
Their children have studied up to graduation level but are not eligible to apply for Government jobs. Their children cannot get admission to government-run professional institutes. The educated youth from these Valmiki families are only eligible to be appointed as safai karamcharis only.
The educated Safai-Karamcharis already working in Jammu Municipality now qualify for further promotions. But as they can only be employed as sweepers, there is no hope. These Safai-Karamcharis can vote for Lok Sabha elections, but not for State Assembly or municipality elections.
The colony that was allotted to Safai Karamcharis to live in (Valmiki Colony, Gandhi Nagar, Jammu) has not been regularized till date.
Now questions are:
* Are these the standards of Human rights being claimed?
* Don’t these people and their Children have right to grow and develop?
Gorkhas were employed in all the ranks of army of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh and then Maharaja Gulab Singh. Their families settled in Jammu and Kashmir more than 200 years ago. They are around one lakh people. They have State subject granted by Maharaja but now they are not granted PRC on illogical grounds. This is due to Article 35-A giving State Government free hand to discriminate even the Permanent residents of State.

some questions which the Powers that be need to address head on

^^^ Pure crazyness.
Scrap 370 now.
Only India engages in such foolishness of divisiveness & creates a security situation in the process.
No other sane country does.
Scrap it now Modi.

Neshant wrote:^^^ Pure crazyness.
Scrap 370 now.
Only India engages in such foolishness of divisiveness & creates a security situation in the process.
No other sane country does.
Scrap it now Modi.

Absolutely. Scrap 370. This should be Modi's equivalent of Vajpayee's nuclear tests. Proactive change to status quo.

I wonder what is preventing Modi from going ahead with the scrapping. Unless, it is loss of nerves, the only thing i can think of is that the Indian armed forces are not ready to handle the aftermath of the scrapping.

Let us analyze the worst case scenarios of how the aftermath of the scrapping will play out. I am listing them in the order of less to more severe.

1. Mass scale uprising on the streets, which will necessitate at a minimum Governor's rule and a Martial Law in Kashmir.

2. Most likely result in complete shutdown and lock down of the valley for weeks, during which the government of India still has to ensure the availability of absolutely minimum essential services and essential items such as food, clothing etc. Government and the Army will have to be prepared to clampdown heavy with strict curfews for weeks, if not months.

3. The above will most likely have to be accompanied by and the government and army having to have detailed plans for and preparation for a brutal, and I mean truly Islamic style or Chinese style brutal crackdown on any and all dissent, while completely blocking off Kashmir Valley to any press, cell phone services, regular phone services, even extensive and extended power cuts, with the exception of hospitals, complete cut of off diesel and gasoline supplies, intercity transport such as bus and train and an absolute lock down for extended period of time.

4. The above will have to be accompanied by setting up of martial law courts, which should try any and all separatists and terrorists caught and impart to them, "speedy trial and justice", without too many appeals. By this I mean, arrest, trial, one appeal and "carrying out of the sentence", all within days, not weeks.

5. The government and the army should be prepared to take the "wayward" Kashmiri youths who have in the past or during this period indulged in anti national activities such as passing information to terrorists or Pakistan, stone pelting, providing refuge to terrorists etc, to special rehabilitation camps on the mainland, perhaps somewhere in Andhra or Tamil or Andamans, to impart them the education that their parents and madarsas failed to impart during their early childhood. I am talking about those that will not fit the bill to be prosecuted in the "Martial Law" courts.

6. The government has to immediately stop any and all civilian financial subsidies and aid, which is massive, and divert it to the Indian armed forces and the Martial Law administration of Kashmir. Setup a different temporary governing structure for Jammu and Ladakh and continue civil governance and aid there.

7. The government has to be prepared to handle massive CIVIL unrest and Terrorism in many parts of India such as the scores of, perhaps hundreds of Islamic enclaves of UP, Bihar, MP, Andhra and Telangana, Tamil, Kerala, West Bengal, Assam and even a couple of spots in Maharashtra and Karnataka. The government also has to be on the look out for any militancy and terrorist activity in Punjab.

AND NOW THE BIGGIES.

8. The government and the army should be prepared for an all out offensive from Pakistan, perhaps even an all out war, but certainly a 1948 style "non state actors'" invasion in the form of Pakistan irregulars, who really are Pakistan regulars, in conjunction with the full might of terrorist Tanzeems like Lashkar, Jaish, Hizbul Mujahadden and even main stream Islamic parties in in Pakistan.

9. The government and the army should be further prepared for the Chinese to take actions such as troop movements, increased incursions into India, deeply crossing into parts of Arunachal, with the objective to both, strengthen paki hand during all of this and to opportunistically take control of more Indian territory, as they have declared Arunachal to be disputed territory in any event and can always claim that they will keep physical control of this territory pending final "settlement".

10. And to top it all, the government should be prepared on the diplomatic, trade and financial front to face massive incoming fire from the so called "International Community" who themselves are suffering the scourge of Islamic terror, but would take this opportunity to score brownie points with the Islamists to "further their own interest", at least that is what they stupidly think, by throwing India under the bus and therefore, not only not raising a finger to "help" India financially, militarily or even diplomatically, but to actually, like I said, to sacrifice India for some perceived short term tactical gains, stemming from the crumbs that Islamists might throw to them. It is also possible that China can condition its pressuring of North Korea on Uncle siding with the Sino-Islamist axis during the whole scrap 370 episode, just like the Americans led by Madeline Albright, famously followed Chinese lead in aggressively ganging up against India during Indian nuclear tests in late 90s. The entire weight of the "International community", which includes multi lateral institutions like the UN (which by the way has 50 Islamic country votes), the Governments, the NGOs, the Press, the Propaganda machinery, the human rights organizations, you name it, will come down heavy on India and the Indian government has to be prepared for it.

------

I still think, that all of the above is quite manageable, as long as the Indian armed forces are fully prepared and battle ready. Then it is only a question of holding our collective nerves. But there are real questions about the readiness of the armed forces. And when I say that there is real question about their battle readiness, I am by no means blaming the armed forces for it. If the Indian armed forces are not battle ready, It is the political and governing apparatus of our country which is responsible for grossly mismanaging the acquisition of weapon systems, for not doing all of the political and administrative work required to keep our armed forces battle ready. This has been neglected by our political and bureaucratic dispensation for decades and deliberately so, to be able to indulge in massive corruption, theft and robbery. I hear things like, "we dont even have ammunition for 30 days engagement", and my heart sinks. I mean, how difficult is it to buy ammo ? and how expensive is it ? Any number of free lance outfits such as Taliban, ISIS, Al Shabab, Boka Haram and any number of much lesser organizations face no ammo shortage and have the capability to carry on multi decade insurgencies almost indefinitely, and how come a country like India does not have 30 day ammo ? Winter jackets ? Snow Shoes ? Bullet proof jackets ? Night vision glasses ? Basic radar and early warning systems ? Night flying aircrafts ? What the hell is going on here ?

-----

So, where do we stand ? I am not sure, because the whole scrapping of 370 depends and rests on the state of preparedness of the Indian armed forces.

I hope Modi is only holding back because of lack of preparedness of the Indian army and for no other reason, such as he is not able to hold his nerves. And I hope, that he understands the urgency of getting our armed forces prepared and is working on a war footing to accomplish that (no pun intended). I know there has been some movement over the past couple of years in expediting defense procurements, and some infra-structure building oriented towards defense, but it takes a lot, a lot more, particularly in view of the history of neglect and corruption and frankly I have not heard of a comprehensive plan and a sense of urgency on part of the government to completely revamp and effect radical changes in supporting our armed forces. This worries me.

If the Indian armed forces are not prepared then what ? Can we look at some alternatives.

Instead of scrapping 370, can we gradually start diluting it systematically, without scrapping. Meaning, just start disregarding it. We start off by creating new towns and settlements in the valley for Kashmiri Pandits, but locate a whole bunch of Biharis, Jats, Punjabis, Telegus, Tamils ( a lot of them returnees from West Asia, perhaps), but anyone who would take up the job, as security and support staff, in these settlements, (temporarily), and then keep gradually and opportunistically expanding these settlements. This may be less risky, but this requires a long term results oriented plan and a steely resolve to accomplish short term goals of locating a certain "number" every month or every quarter, on a consistent basis, day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year, like the Islamists do......Islamists never get tired, they never give up, they are willing to take heavy losses and they think long term.....If that is not strategic I dont know what is, and that is why they win(at least in acquiring and holding territory and convert people to their faith, if you can call that winning), despite always fighting asymetrically.

My question is, that while I can understand that the preparedness or lack thereof, of Indian armed forces may prevent us from outright repealing article 370 in one go, why are we at least not embarking on or even thinking about the gradual eroding of 370, by starting to create these safe enclaves for Kashmiri Pandits and using these enclaves to over time change demographics, is beyond me. If we are not even willing to do this, or even think about doing this, how will we ever, even if we get a chance, repeal 370 ? Does not make sense. If we cant gather the nerves to stamp on a cockroach, how can we even talk in a Don Quixote-sque manner about slaying the dragon, so to speak. Are we completely delusional ?

jamwal wrote:From profile of a local BJP MLA

https://www.facebook.com/vikram.randhawa.106
Surprise visit at Govt Middle School Kiryani Talab Narwal. Bala..Threatening atmosphere as most of the students belong to illegal immigrants Bangladeshes, Burmese and Rohingies..Matter of shame for Previous Govts.

Matter of shame for present govt that they are still there despite many reports. BJP's strategy of blaming previous govt can no longer work in such matter.

rsangram, hate to be terse for your well laid out thoughts, but you answered yourself. India is simply not strong enough, both militarily, politically, economically, and diplomatically to handle the fallout of scrapping 370. (As an aside, what do can you expect from a populace who adore a white trash pop music icon even as he p!sses on them while pay scant regard for its falen heros like Umar Fayazz?). Its only in jingo wet dreams. The simple truth of the matter is that given we ourselves have lowered the bar so low that India gets demonized for "human rights" abuses confronting Islamic fascism, any ratcheting up that bar, much less doing what you said will make TSP and its proxies go berserk. In fact, TSP might even consider it an act of war by India unilaterally changed the nature of a "disputed" territory.

The alternative is continue current status quo and hope BJP will be in power for 20+ years to make India economically and militarily strong, and as importantly politically strong internally till such time India can withstand the fall out you highlight above. Of course, the interim will be painful, but thats the best we can hope for at the moment.

Lt Ummer Fayaz was a JNU product.

pin drop silence from the JNU types, jehadi commies as well as the lootyens sickulars.

Tributes by public, IA and ex servicemen in many cities including dilli India gate and bangalore war memorial

Chetak, what about KM intellectuals? How did the traitors newspapers in the valley like rising Kashmir cover his sacrifice?

CRamS wrote:Chetak, what about KM intellectuals? How did the traitors newspapers in the valley like rising Kashmir cover his sacrifice?

KM intellectuals?? are there any??

Most TV channels also not covering the news of tributes to his memory after his cold blooded and cowardly murder

You right my man, its was a typo, I should have said KM "intellectuals"

CRamS wrote:rsangram, hate to be terse for your well laid out thoughts, but you answered yourself. India is simply not strong enough, both militarily, politically, economically, and diplomatically to handle the fallout of scrapping 370. (As an aside, what do can you expect from a populace who adore a white trash pop music icon even as he p!sses on them while pay scant regard for its falen heros like Umar Fayazz?). Its only in jingo wet dreams. The simple truth of the matter is that given we ourselves have lowered the bar so low that India gets demonized for "human rights" abuses confronting Islamic fascism, any ratcheting up that bar, much less doing what you said will make TSP and its proxies go berserk. In fact, TSP might even consider it an act of war by India unilaterally changed the nature of a "disputed" territory.


The alternative is continue current status quo and hope BJP will be in power for 20+ years to make India economically and militarily strong, and as importantly politically strong internally till such time India can withstand the fall out you highlight above. Of course, the interim will be painful, but thats the best we can hope for at the moment.

CRams,

You think, hypothetically speaking, even if Modi is in power for 20 years, India will become militarily stronger ? or even economically stronger ? Although, I am not sure, how far economic strength, even if it were to come about, will go in fighting the asymmetrical warfare that the Islamists are experts at. And I mean, I sometimes even question this entire premise of India becoming economically stronger. In relation to who ? Isnt is all relative ? Economic strength or any kind of strength only matters when you get stronger in relation to someone else, right ? So, if you get richer by 100% and your enemies (china, in this case and the Islamic world in general) gets richer by 200%, are you stronger economically or weaker ? So, to be really considered economically growing or stronger, you have to at least do better than your enemies, right ? Otherwise, you are at best just keeping up or in India's case, not even that, as I would argue that we have gotten economically weaker vis-a-vis China and the Arab world in general, with their massive oil resources. So, what makes you think that in 20 years, we will not be further behind our enemies, economically ? What will happen then ?

Coming to Military strength and its co-relation with economic strength. Even if you accept the proposition, which I dont, that India has progressively gotten economically stronger in the past 25 years or so, if you look at the relative military strength of India against its enemies, during the same period, you will find that India has gotten progressively militarily weaker in relation to the enemies. This is true, even in relation to our weakest enemy, ie., Pakistan. So, even if you grow economically, in relative terms, which we are not likely to, how does that translate into military strength. I would argue that at least in case of India, regardless of where we go from here economically, we can be militarily prepared in five years to deal with our issues, particularly be eminently be prepared to scrap 370 and face all its consequences to our satisfaction, if we just have the right mindset among our polity and our society. In fact, had Modi started mobilizing the society and his government towards this goal on day 1 that he entered office, he could well have been in a position to abrogate 370 before he faced elections again, at the end of his 5 year term. But again, we judge our governance in india, unfortunately in relation to the alternative dispensations or previous governments, not against the achievable results that were or were not achieved.

Five years is enough to a) mobilize the country and society into a war mindset and get them prepared to make some sacrifices in subsidies and wasteful government schemes, so that massive amounts of money could immediately be diverted to defense.......create a "we will eat grass" mentality in the country, b) Streamline the defense procurements for the future, but indulge in massive immediate, emergency "filling the gap" defense buying spree on a war footing, personally supervised by the Prime Minister and his small group of advisers, by them evaluating and approving each and every "fill in the gap" contract themselves, in a nightly four hour meeting from 10.00 PM to 2.00 AM. And use every possible means, including black market and grey market purchases, using international arms dealers, merchants and smugglers and any means including of course legitimate government to government sales to fill the immediate gap, c) increase the incentives for enlisting more jawans and attracting more officers in the armed forces by massively increasing money and benefits to them, d) completely remove any red tape in allocation of land and pumps etc to martyrs' families and provide a "delivery at home" service of benefits to these martyrs and retired veterans, e) have a massive psyops campaign to elevate the status of an army person to a level which is not just unprecedented in India but in the world, f) renounce no first use nuclear policy and make it clear to the world that our current territory that we control, every inch of it, is a nuclear red line, which we mean to enforce via a potential suicide mission, and mean it, g) start developing tactical nuclear weapons, if for nothing else, for psyops, h) always keep the threat of more nuclear tests hanging in the air, 24X7, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, creating our own subtle nuclear blackmail.......and I can go on and on. NONE OF THESE THINGS CAN BE CONSTRUED BY ANYONE AS US DECLARING WAR.....THESE ARE ALL INTERNAL TYPE THINGS.

These things that I have mentioned above can all be achieved very quickly, given the will and vision, certainly within a 5 year period. In five years, we may not be able to win an all out two front war, or even an all out war on Paki, but if we followed the above, we can at least be in a position to do away with article 370. These things are also not contingent on any further economic growth or strength, relative or absolute. So, why dont we do this ?

Even if we dont do the above, because we lack the vision, the discipline, the self control, the sense of sacrifice, the willingness to give up our own internal and individual corruption, why cant we then at least do the lesser things that I suggested in the previous post. Slowly disregard 370 and start to change demographics under the guise of resettling Kashmiri Pandits ? This will require us to still have vision, discipline, self control, self of sacrifice, willingness to give up corruption, individually and societally, but less so than is required to out and out abrogate 370. Are we not even willing to make this minimal effort societally ? What sort of a country are we then ? What happened to Kashmiri Pandits was genocidal. But we can still convert it into a positive. By now using it as a pretext to change the demographics, even without open abrogation of 370.

Will we ?

chetak wrote:Lt Ummer Fayaz was a JNU product.

pin drop silence from the JNU types, jehadi commies as well as the lootyens sickulars.

Tributes by public, IA and ex servicemen in many cities including dilli India gate and bangalore war memorial

He was NDA cadet who are awarded their degree through JNU, that is what I heard in one of the TV debate.

Army Gives Clean Chit To Officer Who Tied An Alleged Stone-Pelter To Jeep, Says His Move Saved Lives

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/army-give ... aved-lives

https://twitter.com/ashishtikoo31/statu ... 6692696064

So sad to watch. KPs are still enduring the crimes committed against them decades ago.

Dipanker wrote:He was NDA cadet who are awarded their degree through JNU, that is what I heard in one of the TV debate.

That is because NDA cadets do not have a choice. It would take more efforts from the Ajadee shouting free-loaders of JNU @ Delhi to claim some goodness; just because NDA cadets doing a much more honest job training in NDA gets their degree from JNU. When free-loaders like Kanhayya Kumar, Umer Khalid etc. were just eating up tax payer's money, folks like the young Lt Ummer Fayaz from Kashmir was going through a hard training regimen at NDA. Lots of difference.

You think, hypothetically speaking, even if Modi is in power for 20 years, India will become militarily stronger ? or even economically stronger ?

We should not repeat the same mistake what Pakistan is doing with CPEC - If it succeeds, when it succeeds. Leaders change, they get under pressure, they get poor advisors. The way Modi is going it is very promising but relying our policies or success of our strategies to one Man's success is risky. What needs to happen in Kashmir is something that can be sustained, can be implemented and something other non-Modi governments could not meddle with or change. Article 370 has to go but it needs to go with support of Kashmiris. Even Jammu Hindu/Sikh residents do not seem to be too keen in removing it. Unless the gain of removing it can be proven to be much larger than the losses of having it, nothing is going to change.

brvarsh wrote:

You think, hypothetically speaking, even if Modi is in power for 20 years, India will become militarily stronger ? or even economically stronger ?

We should not repeat the same mistake what Pakistan is doing with CPEC - If it succeeds, when it succeeds. Leaders change, they get under pressure, they get poor advisors. The way Modi is going it is very promising but relying our policies or success of our strategies to one Man's success is risky. What needs to happen in Kashmir is something that can be sustained, can be implemented and something other non-Modi governments could not meddle with or change. Article 370 has to go but it needs to go with support of Kashmiris. Even Jammu Hindu/Sikh residents do not seem to be too keen in removing it. Unless the gain of removing it can be proven to be much larger than the losses of having it, nothing is going to change.

370 needs to go, with or without the support of Kashmiris or anyone else for that matter.

370 is an issue of national sovereignty and integration and national sovereignty and national integration is not a question open to any referendums or elections or will of any people. Territorial integrity of a country is not subject to any of those things and is completely non negotiable and out of bounds of any national dialogue.

What is open to negotiation is facilitating those Indian citizens who do not wish to live under the Union of India - the full Union of india with J&K included, to gracefully migrate to other countries which might be more suitable. We should ensure that these people are able to sell their property and belongings in an orderly manner and take all their money and possessions with them. This is what is open to discussion and negotiations, nothing else.

Making of a warrior & the ultimate sacrifice

There are two streams of loyalty, the Umer Fayyaz episode and the Burhan Wani episode prove that, similar distinction is there in rest of India as seen in muslims attending the funeral of Kalam saab and Afzal Guru was it?

Its the second stream that needs analysis, and I believe social media generates enough data to map their inclinations, that includes news articles that are blatantly pro or anti on various issues and see who clicks what

SriJoy wrote: Re: Kashmir, we can simply stick to the UNSC resolution mandate, that states Pakistan must vacate PoK before referendum is allowed in Kashmir. This stance lets us keep Kashmir indefinitely (since Pakistan will never vacate PoK short of nuclear war or a humongous independence struggle in PoK) and at the same time, underscores Pakistan's culpability in messing up Kashmir as well as standing in the way of its democratic self determination.

This is called policy paralysis. The moment we do this it introduces an implicit notion that India occupies Kashmir which on the contrary is not true, Pakistan is. Leaving the problem as is will only multiply in future. We have so much to learn from anti separatist movements in Punjab, in Nagaland, in Tamil Nadu that it is surprising why we are not using them to its fullest in Kashmir. One problem with Kashmir is Islamization of the issue. In any of the other movements the problem was by and large regional. There was an extent of support that could easily be curtailed. The fear in Kashmir is a presence of unresolved problem could potentially become a bigger problem depending on who runs the local and who runs the federal government.

Kashmir is not an Islamic problem, it has never been but now we hear stronger voices to make it so. Even across the borders the sense of turning the issue as a cause of Islam is growing stronger. That goes right orthogonal to how it all started and also leaves a huge opportunity for Indian government to make use of.

Difference between Punjab and Kashmir separatist movements was though in Punjab it started as a religious cause but turned into political, while in Kashmir its getting quite opposite. And rash decisions like removing 370 without at least a few native fronts strongly supporting it would only backfire. Bullets are costly, Guns are cheaper but Issues are cheapest.

SriJoy wrote:
Re: Kashmir, we can simply stick to the UNSC resolution mandate, that states Pakistan must vacate PoK before referendum is allowed in Kashmir. This stance lets us keep Kashmir indefinitely (since Pakistan will never vacate PoK short of nuclear war or a humongous independence struggle in PoK) and at the same time, underscores Pakistan's culpability in messing up Kashmir as well as standing in the way of its democratic self determination.
If we unify over this issue, it also has the potential to turn the Kashmiri awaam against Paksitan, as we can potentially convince them that our stance is legal and justified, with Pakistan being the roadblock.

You cannot be any more wrong. This will be dangerous. It will be the surest way to accede to TSP demands for talks. TSP will gladly agree to this and the discussions will go on with TSP, KM proxies, India's 5th columns, along with TSP's 3.5 silently behind, Vs Indian nationalists on the other. In the ensuing stalemate, it will be downhill for India especially in the court of "international" opinion and India will be painted as the villain.

India's best strategy will be to militarily thwart TSP's ability to create trouble in the valley, hopefully raise the costs for TSPA, and in the meantime work with reasonable KMs in the valley and bring about stability. And at some point, with acquiescence of Kashmiris, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists included, revoke 370 and integrate the state with India. This may take 25+ years. No talk of UN resolutions BS.

by brvarsh
Kashmir is not an Islamic problem, it has never been but now we hear stronger voices to make it so. Even across the borders the sense of turning the issue as a cause of Islam is growing stronger. That goes right orthogonal to how it all started and also leaves a huge opportunity for Indian government to make use of.

Difference between Punjab and Kashmir separatist movements was though in Punjab it started as a religious cause but turned into political, while in Kashmir its getting quite opposite. And rash decisions like removing 370 without at least a few native fronts strongly supporting it would only backfire. Bullets are costly, Guns are cheaper but Issues are cheapest.

Kashmir has always been Islamic issue since the days of Aurungzeb. Do you know any non-muslim Kashmiri leader part of Hurriyat? Or for that matter any Shia/Ahmadia/Bohra/Ismaili as part of Hurriyat!

The best thing is to do what Ranjit Singh did and he isolated Kashmiri muslims by occupying it. So!

Kashmir must be broken down to at least three states with Kashmir valley having no land access to POK.

All the areas sorrounding Kashmir valley could be states but Kashmir valley needs to be Union Territory.

^^^ Because once India accepts those bogus UN resolutions, its no longer a bi-lateral matter. TSP's 3.5 will get involved and there will be lots of maneuverings and theatrics yada yada. It will essentially be talks over the status of J&K which is exactly what TSP and its proxies and 3.5 want. After all the water that has flown, its wiping away all of TSP's crimes in one swoop and holding India and TSP at the same moral equivalence. It will be a complete, unmitigated disaster.

Sri Joy wrote: That would be counter-productive. One cannot have a democracy, without a mechanism for a part of that country to become independent. That runs fundamentally counter to democratic principles of self determination.

Where does it say that having a democracy means providing a mechanism for a part of the country to become independent. This is the sort of understanding of democracy among our own people, which is a large part of all the problems that we have. Have you ever heard of the American Civil War ?

For the sake of argument, even if you accept for a moment, that democracy means allowing separation, then it is even better. We shoot two birds with one stone. Get rid of our democracy too (which I call "chorocracy") with the right to secede.

and check how many times Texas tried to secede from USA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements

Democracy should not be replaced with anything or ever and it'll never create a monster as long as it's substantially democratic. Only thing we need to do is to protect it
My 2 cents

Katare wrote:Democracy should not be replaced with anything or ever and it'll never create a monster as long as it's substantially democratic. Only thing we need to do is to protect it
My 2 cents

Yes let us protect it by giving away Kashmir, just like we gave away half of our country during partition, which has been a part of us for 10000 years, and just like we are giving away to China, our territory inch by inch every day, not to mention providing the Chinese a permanent foothold in Indian territory, such as POK, Baluchistan and other areas, and giving them a permanent foothold into our port and seashore (Gawdar). Never before in the 10000 years of our history, have the Chinese or foreign power had this kind of foot hold in our territory.

We have had democracy since.....when ? 1947. What have we lost since 1947, which we never prior to that lost in our 100000 year history ?

1. Pakistan, east and west
2. Baluchistan
3. Tibet
4. POK
5.Gilgit Baltistan
6. Aksai Chin

And we are on the verge of losing Indian Kashmir despite having nuclear weapons.

This is what democracy has gotten us.

Democracy is not a Dharmic concept. It is a foreign, imported concept. Dharmic concept is one of ONE strong and benevolent leader, who is governed and guided by Dharma, not the whim of the people. In our ancient thought, Dharma is the will of the people, not the impulse they have at any given moment. Dharma arises out of deep thought, Dharma is enduring, Dharma governs all of us, not the momentary weakness of human beings. And our Dharma is eminently and very clearly articulated in our scriptures and culture. At least it was deeply embedded in our culture, until this foreign concept called democracy was imported.

All our civilizational golden moments that we are so proud of or should be proud of, were periods where ONE benevolent leader ruled by and large, as per Dharma. Whether it be Lord Rama, Lord Krishna in our mythology, or whether they be historical periods such as Maurya period, or the periods of the Gurjar Pratiharas, Rashtrakutta, Vijaynagar Empire, Cholas, Guptas, Prthviraj Chuhan, Maharanas of Mewar, Hemchandra, Ranjit Singh, Shivaji, Baji Rao and others.

Compare that to the period of JAwaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi, The great Jagjivan Ram, Rajeev Gandhi, Sonia Gandhi, Laluji, Daku a Azam, Mulayam Singh, Mayawati, "Amma", Karunanidhi, Stalin, Digvijay Singh, IK Gujral, Devegawda, VP Singh, Chandu, Sardar Manmohan, the great "shining India" Atalji, Rahulji, Nitishji, and even "acche Din" Narendra Modi.....oh, and dont let me forget the Patnaik clan and how can I omit Jyoti Basu, Farooq, Omar, Shiekh, Muftis of all variety, and Sharad Pawar and his friend ND Tiwari. This is what democracy gives us. (By the way, I am a Modi fan).

India Today's Rahul Kanwal redeemed himself by interviewing Hurrirats who confessed they are funded by Pakis. Noting indigenous about them. Hawala funding via Old Delhi markets.

Please stick to topic than discussing extraneous stuff.

SriJoy wrote:1. Why would it be 'invitation to talks' ? We can simply say 'no talks till you comply with step1 of UNSC resolution, which is vacate PoK'. We'd be in the legal and logical right, since the international community is the one who underwrote the UNSC resolution and Pakistani withdrawal is step1. If we insist 'nothing happens till step1 is complied with', how is that opening the door for talks ?

To what end? Lets imagine that they do vacate the official force, then what? Knowing Pakis, they will simply replace it with another unofficial (read terrorist) force and continue the charade, as they have done many many times, including Afghanistan. A plebiscite is no longer an option and to be frank, it never was. It should be very clear to any reasonable person how a Muslim majority will vote, not only in Kashmir but other parts of India too.

The only realistic solution is to send all Pak-lovers to POK, in return for Baltistan. I dont see any other way. These people are lost forever.

X Posted from the Pakistani Role in Global Terrorism thread.

Citizen of the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Muhammad Aafaq I., whose last name wasn't given in accordance with privacy regulations, is charged in Germany with joining Islamic Republic located Mohammadden belief based group, Lashkar e Taiba (LeT), for purpose of exporting Pakistani national sport of Mohammadden Terrorism to the state of Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) in our Country.

And so yet another citizen of the Mohammaddenn Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan resident abroad is arrested, this time in Germany, for indulging in Pakistani national pastime of Mohammadden Terrorism.

Pakistani man faces terrorism charges in Germany

https://www.newslaundry.com/2017/05/16/ ... t-islamism

Kashmiri separatism was always about Islamism

To effectively address the unrest in Kashmir we need to accept that religion and not politics drives it.

Regardless of the beguiling spin that most apologists, defenders, ideologues, sympathisers, supporters of Kashmiri separatism give to justify their cause in the name of Kashmiri nationalism, the roots of this movement and its driving force lie in Islamism, Islamo-fascism and Islamist exclusivism. From the time when the Muslim Conference was in the vanguard of making Kashmir a part of the Islamic State of Pakistan, to the time in the early 1990s when a wave of terrorism was unleashed in Jammu and Kashmir (the so-called “secular” Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front was in the forefront of the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits), to now when another upsurge is being witnessed - the Islamist impulse has been the main inspiration and motivation of the separatists. While some of the separatists try to disguise their Islamism by calling it a “political problem” and linking it with Kashmiri identity, there are others who are less hypocritical and more upfront, even brazen, about the Islamist underpinnings of the cause for which they are fighting.

The Hizbul Mujahideen terrorist, Zakir Musa, was being completely honest and truthful when he declared that the struggle he was associated with was an Islamic struggle for the enforcement of Shariah. And like the genuine article Islamist warrior that he is, he threatened to chop off the heads of the Hurriyat leaders who called the separatist movement a “political movement”. Exposing the double-speak, hypocrisy, dissemble of the Hurriyat leaders who try resort to duplicitousness by couching their Islamism in political terms, he reminded them of the slogans they have raised – Pakistan se rishta kya, la illah il allah (What is our relationship with Pakistan: No one is worthy of worship except Allah) and Azadi ka matlab kya, la illah il allah (What is the meaning of freedom: No one is worthy of worship except Allah) – to mobilise people to support their cause.

RSS to hold annual meet in J&K for the first time

Gaslighting the valley muz a little more, I guess.

Bring it on. Full monty meltdown on national & int'l cameras would help India see the truth about the k-valley.

More the valley jihardons and their ovegroundu patrons in lootyens and isloo expose themselves hoarse attacking this meet, more intell Doval and co get is the way I read it. Only.

P.S. Amarnath yatra will be a way more serious target than ever before, however.

SriJoy wrote:

rsangram wrote:
Where does it say that having a democracy means providing a mechanism for a part of the country to become independent. This is the sort of understanding of democracy among our own people, which is a large part of all the problems that we have. Have you ever heard of the American Civil War ?

For the sake of argument, even if you accept for a moment, that democracy means allowing separation, then it is even better. We shoot two birds with one stone. Get rid of our democracy too (which I call "chorocracy") with the right to secede.

American civil war happened because there was no agreed protocol to democratic independence.
As far as i know, human rights charter plus democracy implies, if there is political will for independence, democracies accommodate atleast the legal scenario via its constitutional courts.

...

This is utter and complete nonsense you are peddling here. No democracy will allow a fascist or a theocratic secession. All that these theories have created is an ever increasing spiral of violence and misery on the subcontinent. One million dead in 1947, three million in 1971, and a hundred thousand since then. How many more will the likes of you kill before you give up this 'human rights' and 'right to self determination' nonsense?

The only entity that establishes a peace and a modus-vivendi on the subcontinent is the Union of India and the Union (not a federation) is indissoluble.

Exactly!

When two or more sovereign nations unite to form a country as federation or union they have option to include a separation clause like in the case of United kingdom. Constitution of India (and USA) has no such clause and India has never lost an inch of land because of democracy. The land we lost to china, a superior military forces in our neighborhood has nothing to do with democracy but the short sightedness of the leaders we elected. We still vigorously maintain our claim on all parts that we lost and our struggle to get them back continues (including Aksai Chin or Desert of China).

Also Human rights does not mean right to separatism but right to protest peacefully for any cause and restriction on governments to allow such protest and not use undue forces on such gatherings. The moment you pick-up arms, start destroying properties or cross constitutional limits your human rights vanish in proportions. For instance a stone throwing crowed of Indian citizens should not be assaulted by tanks (like China did), groups of Indian citizens, like Naxals or Kashmiri terrorists, armed with small arms should not be attacked by artillery guns and fighter jets (like Pakistan). These are sensible safeguards, although at times I feel like using Agni 5s on such fellow citizens.

If a group of citizens have right to struggle for dismembering our nation the rest of the nation's citizens through it's elected govt have right to protect the integrity of the nation with all means available to it

So my point is do not confuse rhetoric of bleeding heart libtards like Manishankar and Arundhati Roy for what human rights and democracy actually are. Neither should anyone get discouraged by games that west plays by misusing human rights as a weapon at best its continued annoyance.

Kashmir struggle is nothing but pan-Islamism supported by a rogue terrorist loving entity masquerading as a nation on our western borders. A democratic India treats this so called struggle (scheduled every Friday with flags of ISIS, Taliban and Pakistan) nothing more than what it is. Asking for Azadi in a democracy is Oxymoron, you can't get freed unless you are enslaved and democracy is the freest form of governance known to men. Any call to freedom from such a system is nothing but a call for naked separatism to serve some narrow selfish purpose. In a decade or two or so this phase will pass as mother India embraces, nurtures and assimilates our estranged formerly hindu brothers who have lost the touch with their roots after conversion to a foreign faith.

This is one man's opinion so take it for whatever it's worth to you

#HurriyatTruthTapes : Real Face Of Hurriyat Conference In Kashmir Exposed | Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OxjFlirhDA

#HurriyatTruthTapes : Real Face Of Hurriyat Conference In Kashmir Exposed | Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZf0QtCzL24

X-Post....

ramana wrote:I expounded on this with another member yesterday.

It's a long war and each: 1947, 1965, 1971, 1989 to 2003 and present are battles in this war.

First was Battle of Kashmir. It settled accession and that Pakistan occupied Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan.
1965 was Battle Of Punjab. It showed India will cross International Borders in self defence of Kashmir.
1971 was Battle of East Pakistan. It led to creation of Bangladesh and 93000 POWs. Same number at Battle of Stalingrad in WWII.
1989 to 2003 is Second Battle of Kashmir. It established India will finish off Pakistan.
Now we are in Third and hopefully last Battle of Kashmir. If NaMo wins this it ends Pakistan. So we need to understand and support him.