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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 19:42
by putnanja
US ambassador needs to be withdrawn, the buck stops with her. She failed to inform India of impending arrest of DK & helped evacuate SR's family.
In a government where from the top, everyone passes the buck, is it any surprise that they couldn't figure out where the buck stops in US embassy?

Just expelling an "equivalent rank diplomat"? What kind of retaliation is that? Even pakistan which still is on life support from US does better than that!
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 19:43
by Sagar G
Agree pankajs but then don't judge him prematurely as well, that's what I am saying.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 19:46
by pankajs
India asks US Embassy to remove 1 of its officersRecalling a diplomat is a serious, and fairly unusual, move that sends a message to Washington that India's government doesn't accept the legitimacy of the court action in New York.
<snip>
"It's a shame this came to the fore over one individual," said Lalit Mansingh, India's ambassador to the U.S. from 2001 to 2004. "It sends the message that we're touchy about personal integrity, rather than about issues of global importance."
US is encouraged by response like that of Mansingh's. If one individual's dignity should be sacrificed over issues of global importance shouldn't he give the same advice to the Americans?
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 19:55
by Dipanker
CRamS wrote:One thing I hope everybody on DDM and in India in general will learn from this episode is to not go ga ga over an NRI pipsqueak like me achieve something here and there. 90+% of NRIs are in US for personal aggrandizement (nothing wrong with that), and as far as US India relations go, they contribute nothing. And many NRIs are downright detrimental to US India relations at a strategic level. At the end of the day, the villian in this case is that Unccle Tom b@stard Preet Barara (someone said he shares the Khalistani hatred towards India, don't know if its true), not to mention that 2-bit SD official, Nisha Desai. Also, judging from the comments to various articles, most of the NRIs are so challenged in their strategic understanding of US policy, that they take out their pet grouses and hatreds against India: related to power, secessionist desires, privilege, caste/class, law enforcement, corruption etc, based on what is reported about DK. I mean lets face it, it takes some level of foreign policy understanding that the custodial rape of DK has nothing to do with the ostensible US concerns for fair wages and other moralistic crap, but own people (theIT wallahs, newly arrived feminists etc have fallen for it). At the end of the day, this is another one of those Indian Vs Indian Vs Indian (and I make no distinction between honorary white Indians like PB and those like DK and SR) spats with whites having the last laugh going to the bank.
Score card: US gets an A+
India gets an F-
I think you are unduly being harsh to NRI's. Difference in viewpoint will exist, that has been the nature of beast always. That is why in Sanskrit there is a saying "Munde munde matirbhinna" and that is why we all are known as "argumentative Indians".
Have you been reading the comments published in TOI, HT, NDTV, CNN-IBN etc. related to this issue? Majority of these comments, I am afraid is not going to be your liking, it's very different from what is being espoused by the jingos on this thread. It will we a reasonable assumption that most of these people are Indians living in India and not NRI's.
Here is my scorecard:
USA: F
India: FF (double F)
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 20:05
by Sagar G
Comments on news sites are moderated and can be doctored to represent a particular view.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 20:08
by pankajs
Sagar G wrote:Comments on news sites are moderated and can be doctored to represent a particular view.
And online comments like online polling is highly unreliable predictor of the mood of a nation or on the streets especially in a country like India with access to internet being what it is.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 20:10
by Philip
George's piece in the Ind.Exp. about this issue being fundamentally an espionage matter ,seems to be unravelling as the real reason for the shindig.The very fact that the "senior" diplomutt's name is not mentioned indicates that he is either the station chief or an asset operating covertly under a bogus designation.If senior,then of 1st sec. rank.
Hypocrisy exemplar! How the US tried to rig the Afghan elections,revealed by none other than former Def. Sec. Bob Gates himself!
They are trying today to unseat Sheikh Hasina in BDEsh and and covertly funding the AAP in India. So much for "democracy" fair play",etc.
The US is the schweinhund of the 21st century.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... bert-gates
US 'tried to oust Hamid Karzai by manipulating Afghan elections'
Former defence secretary Robert Gates is quoted as saying in his memoirs that US tried to eject Afghan president in 2009
The US government tried to oust the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, by manipulating elections in 2009, in what amounted to a "clumsy and failed putsch", the former defence secretary Robert Gates has been quoted as writing in his memoirs.
Karzai has long claimed that the US tried to manipulate the poll to remove him from office, while Washington insisted it was an impartial supporter of democracy. The revelations in Gates's account of his years in power, which is published next week and covers the war in Afghanistan, appear to vindicate the Afghan leader's suspicions.
The top US diplomat Richard Holbrooke supported Karzai's rivals in the hope of pushing the poll to a second round that the incumbent would lose, Foreign Policy magazine reported.
"It was all ugly: our partner, the president of Afghanistan, was tainted, and our hands were dirty as well," Gates is quoted writing.
Karzai has cited concerns about foreign interference in a vote to choose his successor later this year as one reason for the delay in signing a long-term security pact with Washington to keep troops in the country after their combat mission ends later this year.
The deal is unlikely to be signed on the timetable the US government would like, the ambassador to Kabul warned in a secret cable leaked to the Washington Post.
US politicians and the military want it sealed early this year to allow for a smooth withdrawal and planning for next year if any troops stay on.
Ties with Kabul have been strained by a string of disagreements over civilian deaths, election planning and other issues, including the release of dozens of men Karzai says are innocent and the US claims are a serious security threat.
Washington insists that if there is no deal, it will resort to its "zero option" and take all troops home , but Karzai has argued that is an empty threat to bolster the US negotiating position.
Holbrooke, who died in December 2010, was the special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan and played a key role in 2009 efforts to remove Karzai from power. He paid public lip-service to the idea of a level playing field, but was working behind the scenes to ensure the opposite, Gates writes: "Holbrooke was doing his best to bring about the defeat of Karzai… What he really wanted was to have enough credible candidates running to deny Karzai a majority in the election, thus forcing a runoff in which he could be defeated."
Tactics included advising candidates, attending their rallies and organising high-profile photo opportunities, the memoir claims. Karzai soon noticed the efforts, it adds.
In the end, the election was plagued by serious fraud and worries about violence. The candidate who got through to a second round against the president eventually called off the vote and conceded defeat.
A White House spokesman, Caitlin Hayden, strongly denied Gates's claims. "The US's interest was in a stable Afghanistan, with credible democratic elections – not in helping any candidate win or lose," she said.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 20:14
by Sagar G
Visited one
link just now and saw the comments funnily a person claiming to be representative of American Indian community is talking against Devyani and rest are defending her. Oh the irony !!!!!
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 20:58
by saip
"Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade arrest row
escalates as India retaliates, expels US Embassy official"
This is the headline from Financial Express. Why are they saying India 'escalated' it? Dont they understand the meaning of reciprocity? DDMitis?
Financial Express
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 21:08
by rajanb
Wonder whether he had time to sell his stock of booze?
Let us see what DDMitis we get in tomorrows news.
Frankly, I am not happy that we reacted in the timeframe that we have. I would not have followed SOP for this situation. I would have waited a week, let whatever ASSistant Secys. of State to reschedule their visits, and then sent X number yanquis packing pronto. And watched the khujli. Saying we had sufficient reasons for their complicity of working against the Republic of India. Because rest assured, more that one was involved in this matter of Richard's family's Tea visas!
And watched while ASSistant Secy's postponed again.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 21:11
by saip
I wonder what DK's appointment in India will be? In charge of US desk? Meeting US under sec etc.?
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 21:37
by KrishnaK
How about ensuring that no diplomat of ours is in violation of any law ? Is that too much to ask for ?
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 21:48
by Singha
'laws' are pulled out of the posterior of khan as a matter of convenience, international agreements are treated like toilet paper what to speak of informal arrangements.
there is absolutely no way india can ensure squeaky clean ahimsa on any US law unless we shut down the consulate. havent all of us spat on the road, urinated against a bush, jumped a traffic light sometime? there are laws and rules against such things buried in our law books somewhere.
the only way to deal with the US is the way Russia/China deals with the US - a strictly mercantile transactional relation , and any mischief is retaliated instantly and harshly at the other end.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 21:56
by Sanjay
KrishnaK, I agree with the addition that we ruthlessly prosecute and persecute any American diplomat for as much as littering.
I hate to say this but I think we are being very harsh on GOI.
Without a trial, the arrest cannot be deemed wrongful by the US Govt.
Whether the charges are true or not, the arrest was made and things happened.
This outcome was realistically the best India could have hoped for - dropping of charges was unlikely to happen (too many egos on the US side).
What we need to separate is the very legitimate desire to get back at one of them (which should happen nonetheless - even if we have to "plant" something) and the handling of the case after it exploded.
GOI did whatever it needed to get DK out. In that sense GOI did very well indeed.
Furthermore, all the US had to do was grant the G1 and get her out and the "reciprocity" might not have happened.
In fact, the US showed its hand and has destroyed whatever goodwill it had - the distrust and hatred is back with a vengeance.
The comments in the WRM (white racist media) show that there is no point in viewing the US as a friendly nation and India has to learn to get what it can wherever it can and from whomever it can.
What will be disgusting is if the US returns to its privileged position.
India also needs to deal with the WRM agents (or correspondents) that pollute India and also their local quislings.
Even more importantly, the quislings such as Ajai Shukla need to be hounded out of cyberspace and newsprint.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:00
by KrishnaK
Singha wrote:'laws' are pulled out of the posterior of khan as a matter of convenience, international agreements are treated like toilet paper what to speak of informal arrangements.
there is absolutely no way india can ensure squeaky clean ahimsa on any US law unless we shut down the consulate. havent all of us spat on the road, urinated against a bush, jumped a traffic light sometime? there are laws and rules against such things buried in our law books somewhere.
the only way to deal with the US is the way Russia/China deals with the US - a strictly mercantile transactional relation , and any mischief is retaliated instantly and harshly at the other end.
My apologies Singha, but that's nonsense. This maid issue has happened repeatedly. I'm not in any way supportive of what the US did here, but that doesn't excuse our govt. from ensuring our diplos are not in breach of local laws. US has always been serious about labour laws and those were not "pulled out of the posterior of khan". What they did with Russian diplomats or not is very irrelevant. We're not interested in letting our diplomats behave that way, neither should we put them in a position of vulnerability.
There are millions of DOOs who work 70 hour weeks without maids. I'm sure our diplomats can too.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:08
by Prasad
KrishnaK wrote:
There are millions of DOOs who work 70 hour weeks without maids. I'm sure our diplomats can too.
Why does this keep cropping up? Who cares if you can do it. If she wants to hire a maid, its her prerogative. Besides, as singha says, this minimum wage calculation was changed recently to exclude accomodation, food etc. So it wasn't always this way. A nyc apartment rent is more than minimum wage itself! Besides selective implementation of law is what he meant by pulling laws out the wazoo. They do not pull nonsense like this with the chinese or the russians. Krittika Biswas was also a case of brilliant law implementation was it? The actual person involved in that case was not even arrested! Besides labour laws and illegal mexican workers? Yeah right.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:09
by chaanakya
Removing Deputy Station Chief of See EyeA from India is not going to be enough.Pakistan made name of Station CHief Public and Unkil was forced to withdraw him. If such a step is taken here that will hurt unkil more as station chief would become useless and prime target for taalibaani types.
However, India should implement its laws and if any Diplomutt of unkil is found to be violating it then apply SOP. That is how it would be reciprocal. Well Time is on our side.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:13
by KrishnaK
Sanjay wrote:KrishnaK, I agree with the addition that we ruthlessly prosecute and persecute any American diplomat for as much as littering.
Agreed, americans can't expect leniency if they'd like to be anal about their local laws.
I hate to say this but I think we are being very harsh on GOI.
WHAT ARE YOU EVEN SAYING !!! GOI has sold all indians their unborn children into slavery of amirkhan. Do you not know they have been plotting against us dharmics for ages now ?
In fact, the US showed its hand and has destroyed whatever goodwill it had - the distrust and hatred is back with a vengeance. The comments in the WRM (white racist media) show that there is no point in viewing the US as a friendly nation and India has to learn to get what it can wherever it can and from whomever it can.
What will be disgusting is if the US returns to its privileged position.
The US continues to be a friend even if it is an assh01e. That's the way they'd rather behave and it's very much their choice. What's regrettable is that they choose to lose genuine warmth they have in India over something like this. That said to have spats like this characterized as the actions of an enemy is ludicrous. America has done no material damage to us with this action. They will continue to be our largest investors, the largest market for our services and *one* of our most important allies.
India also needs to deal with the WRM agents (or correspondents) that pollute India and also their local quislings.
Even more importantly, the quislings such as Ajai Shukla need to be hounded out of cyberspace and newsprint.
I think we can do without such name calling. If America can manage to have it's quislings here, so to speak and we can't in the US, it is very much our fault. The best course of action would be to rectify the underlying issue rather than make this an issue of honour.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:15
by member_28352
^^^^^DK is not a DOO. She doesn't earn her bread slaving for a US firm. She works for the GOI and is a privileged person, her being a diplomat, as all diplomats are worldwide. If she chooses to keep a maid that's her and the Indian govt's business. Last I checked having a maid wasn't a crime in India. Remember only Indian laws are applicable to this case. Both DK and SR were on Indian passports and disputes if any were under the jurisdiction of Indian courts. For patently oblique reasons (spying?) US SD and Khalistani attack dogm PB waded into this matter and are patently in contempt of Indian courts and Indian law which is the only law that is applicable to this case. That DOO washes his own underwear is a non-sequitor in this matter. Why do you find this simple matter so difficult to wrap around your head?
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:16
by saip
Prasad wrote:KrishnaK wrote:
There are millions of DOOs who work 70 hour weeks without maids. I'm sure our diplomats can too.
Why does this keep cropping up? Who cares if you can do it. If she wants to hire a maid, its her prerogative. Besides, as singha says, this minimum wage calculation was changed recently to exclude accomodation, food etc. So it wasn't always this way. A nyc apartment rent is more than minimum wage itself! Besides selective implementation of law is what he meant by pulling laws out the wazoo. They do not pull nonsense like this with the chinese or the russians. Krittika Biswas was also a case of brilliant law implementation was it? The actual person involved in that case was not even arrested! Besides labour laws and illegal mexican workers? Yeah right.
As far as I can tell the minimum wage calculation was changed by an administrative rule rather than law and they can be challenged as being too wide, vague or outside the scope of the law itself. They created a class for live-in workers and amongst them another sub class for those on A3 visa.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:17
by srin
So - we wimped.
I'd have expected the diplomat to be arrested for contempt of court in the middle of the night, put behind bars for some time, and then declared PNG. I'd also have expected India to "request" the US to replace the ambassador, given that the position is useless - the current ambassador has so damaged the relations that it is better to have none.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:17
by Arjun
KrishnaK wrote:My apologies Singha, but that's nonsense. This maid issue has happened repeatedly. I'm not in any way supportive of what the US did here, but that doesn't excuse our govt. from ensuring our diplos are not in breach of local laws. US has always been serious about labour laws and those were not "pulled out of the posterior of khan". What they did with Russian diplomats or not is very irrelevant. We're not interested in letting our diplomats behave that way, neither should we put them in a position of vulnerability.
There are millions of DOOs who work 70 hour weeks without maids. I'm sure our diplomats can too.
It wouldn't take too much effort for our babus to figure out a process for Indian visa which would equally lend itself to applying "visa fraud" charges whenever convenient. Our babu skill in thinking up bureaucratic legalese is quite legendary - but this skill has unfortunately been limited in being applied locally to Indian citizens. These skills now need to be turned outwards in the right direction.
So, while I am all for taking cognizance of local laws (to the extent they are not contradicting Vienna conventions, which in this particular case they are) - we need to apply a reciprocal amount of bureaucratic ambiguity to Indian permit documents for foreigners.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:19
by KrishnaK
Prasad wrote:KrishnaK wrote:
There are millions of DOOs who work 70 hour weeks without maids. I'm sure our diplomats can too.
Why does this keep cropping up? Who cares if you can do it. If she wants to hire a maid, its her prerogative. Besides, as singha says, this minimum wage calculation was changed recently to exclude accomodation, food etc. So it wasn't always this way. A nyc apartment rent is more than minimum wage itself!
It keeps cropping up because we're opening ourselves to legal action. Hiring a maid is very much DK's prerogative. Hiring one in violation of labour laws is not. Why not just hire a maid in the US ? Why ship one from India ? G. Parathasarathy, a former diplomat himself, made a case that the maid was being paid a good wage by
Indian standards.
Besides selective implementation of law is what he meant by pulling laws out the wazoo. They do not pull nonsense like this with the chinese or the russians. Krittika Biswas was also a case of brilliant law implementation was it? The actual person involved in that case was not even arrested! Besides labour laws and illegal mexican workers? Yeah right.
Their country, their laws and their implementation. We have absolutely no say there and we shouldn't. What the russians or chinese do is their business. I'd rather Indian diplomats also not indulge in fraud.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:24
by Dipanker
ShankarCag wrote:^^^^^DK is not a DOO. She doesn't earn her bread slaving for a US firm. She works for the GOI and is a privileged person, her being a diplomat, as all diplomats are worldwide. If she chooses to keep a maid that's her and the Indian govt's business. Last I checked having a maid wasn't a crime in India. Remember only Indian laws are applicable to this case. Both DK and SR were on Indian passports and disputes if any were under the jurisdiction of Indian courts. For patently oblique reasons (spying?) US SD and Khalistani attack dogm PB waded into this matter and are patently in contempt of Indian courts and Indian law which is the only law that is applicable to this case. That DOO washes his own underwear is a non-sequitor in this matter. Why do you find this simple matter so difficult to wrap around your head?
Actually you will be surprised to know that keeping a maid in not a crime in US either!
But furnishing false information on official document is a crime pretty much in all countries around the world and US in no exception.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:24
by Sanjay
KrishnaK, just a caveat - DK through her attorney indicated that SR was not paid under the minimum wage.
Whether true or not, I don't know but frankly I really don't care at this point, although I fully agree that in no way shape or form can lawbreaking by Indian diplomatic officials be condoned.
Your statement on fraud causes me concern - the US would have had to prove that DK forced SR to sign a false declaration of income - was DK so stupid as to tell SR a number that was as large as DK's own salary ?
That was the weakest part of the US case but the one with the heaviest penalty. The minimum wage thing is more difficult to argue.
Quislings is an apt word for anyone when their country's representatives are at risk, argues the American case better than the Americans.
The US behaved like a goonda in this affair and then started to bray sanctimoniously.
Even if the arrest had to be made, it could have been handled better.
That it wasn't is typical of an attitude that seems to pervade US law enforcement (I sometimes wonder how much of their budget goes to settling lawsuits).
Standard Procedures are meant to have a certain inherent flexibility.
India likes to beat itself up saying that because economic growth slipped, there is no longer any respect.
That is irrelevant.
Had DK been arrested and jailed but not searched the way that she was, chances are there would have been minimal reaction and the US should have known that - or perhaps they did but acted out of malice ? Who knows ?
srin, contempt of court will not be easy to prove in the case of somebody not a party to a court matter.
The US acted contemptuously but contempt of court legally ? Not so sure. An arrest here would be ineffective.
What India needs is to arrest somebody for an actual crime (even if it is an engineered one).
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:25
by ramana
matrimc wrote:ramana wrote:The trap was sprung in June 2013 with that letter from 170 Congressmen.
ramana garu: Another complicating factor is that President Obama made up his mind already that the jobs are getting "Bangalored". May be the letter was like adding more fuel to the fire. We need to explain DoS and Secy Kerry and his organization's part in the la affaire de Khobragade.
I am still using the Gates memoir on the Obama Admin/team hamartia of domestic politics over-riding all issues.
Also don't forget Obama termed Hillary Clinton as D-Punjab in derision. And now Kerrorist is in charge of SD which was formerly under Clinton. So could be blow in domestic politics using MUTU Ind-Am to go after India.
So can't put it past them to rub in indic Indian-Americans and show them their place.
Amy Chua of "Battle hymn of Tiger Mom" fame has written a new book about common characteristics of eight high success immigrant-ethnic (I am including Mormons here in case MUTUs here derail the thinking) groups. She includes Ind-Am groups here. Common factors are:superiority complex (Iam the best), insecurity complex (failure is not an option) and high impulse control(don't be flamboyant and risk averse). The last one I see being degraded in second gen and high net-worth Ind-Am high achievers which makes them vulnerable to show case/teach a lesson type trials.
However if you reflect on the Gates memoir one even more compelling thing for Obama is to get out of Af-Pak and not rile the Chinese too much. So wouldnt put it past them to signal those two that GOI is really a un-strategic minion and not a partner in grime(Nuke Proliferation etc) like both of them.
CRS, There are two types of Ind-Ams : MUTU and indics. The success of later is still to be celebrated by all. The success of the former is for the host country to celebrate.
Not a victory: What India must learn from the Khobragade case
^^^
So the key lesson for us Indians is this: we have to stand by our people when they are targeted abroad. It does not matter if those Indians may not be so well thought of here. The US stood by a man - Richard Davies - who killed two people in Pakistan but the Americans bailed him out even though he was not a diplomat and had no immunity.
This is what we should learn from the US: stand by your own people when they are in trouble. And fight your local battles locally.
Looks like BRF message is being realized in India if not among all our own members.....
Sagar G wrote:
Thought so, take my unsolicited advice and stop getting worked up about this issue by expecting this sold out GoI to take any retaliatory steps. It's not going to happen.
SagarG and others, At least let him say his piece. Why muzzle the thoughts? Otherwise why have a forum? Can be a moderated or worse paid comments board like UNDTV et al!!!!
Also folks lets stick to Indo-US news and discussions only. We have the NaMo and Congress Game Plan threads in the burkha forum.
(Merlin it applies to you as others will bandwagon after you and I know you in person and feel you will indulge me!)
Also guys DK's Indian issues are OT here.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:28
by ramana
Sanjay, Mir Jaffer is a better Indian example of a case where to settle local scores one takes up foreigners cause.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:30
by ramana
I think India expelling the US diplomat without naming him and not identifying the undiplomatic actions on his or her part is not reciprocal action.
in Americanism "doesn't cut the mustard!"
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:34
by Sanjay
Not naming the US scum - yet ! It will come out sooner or later - within 48 hrs.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:35
by ramana
dipanker, Last word. DK's lawyer stated in public that the visa application was read incorrectly by the BDS agent Smith. As corollary refer to Sanjay's post about quislings.
In case you think otherwise Sanjay is Kings' College Bar at Law.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:44
by Rony
A different take from how this is perceived in BRF from Puddle's Economist. This is before India expelled US diplomat.
India shows who's boss
WITH, in the words of her lawyer, “her head held high”, the New York-based Indian diplomat at the centre of her country’s worst row with America in years, has left the country. Devyani Khobragde, charged with paying her maid too little and committing fraud to obtain a visa for her, was asked to leave after being formally indicted. Crucially, America's State Department had approved her transfer to a job at the UN, in which she enjoyed full diplomatic immunity.
The Indian government and public had been outraged by her arrest last month, which she said involved handcuffs, strip-searching and time in the lock-up with common criminals and drug addicts.
The government had taken reprisals against American diplomats in India—removing the security roadblocks outside the embassy in Delhi, for example, halting its import clearances (no cheap booze!) and investigating what Americans paid their domestic staff in India.
An American Congressional delegation found itself snubbed in Delhi. And this month, America’s energy secretary, Enest Moniz, had to cancel a planned trip to India.
Since America and India say they want to be “strategic partners”, the unseemly squabble not just embarrassing; it had an importance entirely out of proportion to the seemingly rather trivial cause.
In trying to resolve it, the State Department has made the big concession. It amounts to a tacit admission that the arrest was poorly handled, whether or not Ms Khobragade should have enjoyed immunity at the time of her arrest.
India’s government will feel vindicated for its tough stance. Not just did it feel it had to take a strong stand in defence of Indian national dignity. It also will have been conscious that, with an election looming, the issue might cost it votes, if it were not seen to be protecting an Indian citizen's interests. Moreover, Ms Khobragade is a Dalit, a member of the group once called untouchable, which accounts for more than 15% of the electorate.
However, the row may linger on. Ms Khobragde has left her family in New York. They may not want to leave—her husband is an American citizen of Indian origin, and their two children are in school. Since officially her charges are still “pending”, she will need the protection of full immunity to visit them.
More fundamentally, the tiff has uncovered a deep rift in the two countries’ perceptions of one another. From the Indian perspective, America remains unwilling to afford it the respect a true partner deserves. And from the American, the Indian response reveals both a brittle anxiety about its own status and a callous disregard for the well-being of the person the American justice system saw as the victim in this story—the maid. Rather than partners, the two countries look like strangers.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:46
by vasu raya
DK has had UN accreditation since Aug 26th, so the full immunity here comes through Vienna convention or some other international agreement meant for UN personnel? if US hasn't 'rattyfied' any of these international conventions, why is UN even hosted in NY and give SD a say?
An analogy would be to host international olympics in NY but insist on American football as World Soccer since its played on American homeland
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:46
by KrishnaK
Sanjay wrote:KrishnaK, just a caveat - DK through her attorney indicated that SR was not paid under the minimum wage.
Whether true or not, I don't know but frankly I really don't care at this point, although I fully agree that in no way shape or form can lawbreaking by Indian diplomatic officials be condoned.
Your statement on fraud causes me concern - the US would have had to prove that DK forced SR to sign a false declaration of income - was DK so stupid as to tell SR a number that was as large as DK's own salary ?
That was the weakest part of the US case but the one with the heaviest penalty. The minimum wage thing is more difficult to argue.
Sanjay, the issue boils down to hiring maids in *India*, getting them visas so they can work full time in the US with our diplomats. Surely that can be done without ? Either hire them on full US wage + $1 or better still hire maids in the US.
Again as far as wages and so on, Parathasarathy did claim "most third world countries would be in violation of US law". I think we carried on the way we did knowing full well there was some scope of legal action convinced the US would never target us like this.
Quislings is an apt word for anyone when their country's representatives are at risk, argues the American case better than the Americans.
I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree with you more. Ajai Shukla, the gent in question here, hasn't done anything that can be characterized as treason. The forum likes to tom tom about traitors, quislings the moment it's hardcore nationalistic line isn't toed by anybody. There are plenty of patriotic Indians out there, who think it is the GoI's fault. It's good to have a variety of opinion.
Even if the arrest had to be made, it could have been handled better.
Agree completely, although it is regrettable that it came to the arrest in the first place.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:48
by Sanjay
Ramana, it is worrying that even on BRF there is seemingly an acceptance of every word on the indictment by some people.
DK allegedly did certain things. The US media and the quislings (I prefer that word as his fate matches what I think should happen to them) accepted DK's guilt as a given.
That is unacceptable.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 22:55
by Rony
Sanjay wrote:Ramana, it is worrying that even on BRF there is seemingly an acceptance of every word on the indictment by some people.DK allegedly did certain things. The US media and the quislings (I prefer that word as his fate matches what I think should happen to them) accepted DK's guilt as a given.That is unacceptable.
+ 100
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 23:01
by ramana
Rony, BBC last night announcing DK's departure started by saying another 'downturn" in relations. Most observers don't understand the US stance.
It looks like totally stupid or some deep covert plan to send signal to TSP and China which is ratcheting the East Asia.
KK,
Yes Bharat Rakshak is an unabashed " Bharat that is India" (Nehruji's words not ours) centric forum. Many before you and most likely after you with Internationale ideas have stopped being here including the good Col Shukla.
To me you should examine your self (being among people who have diametrically opposite views to you) whether you should persist here or not.
I value somnath for his self examination and sometimes miss him for his other thoughts.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 23:09
by ramana
Sanjay, Quote from old poem. Applies to all of us on BRF and eslewhere:
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Desederata by Max Ehrmann, American Poet.
Thought you would appreciate it!!!
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 23:17
by Theo_Fidel
MITI on MUTU on Quisling action I see. :-(
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So the inevitable predicted here has happened. IMHO DK should have pi$$ on the DoJ and taken off to India earlier. She got a lot of very bad advice to risk her life like this, a lot of it regurgitated on this forum as well. I’m curious to see what Rathore does now. Is he going to put his money where his mouth is and return to his ancestral home?
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This is why I have always said that India & USA can never be ‘allies’ in the traditional sense. There is too much difference between usa and our world views. I have always thought India misunderstood even the nuclear deal. There is no option at Jaitapur and MithiVirdhi. We are expected to buy the overpriced Reactors at whatever price AREVA & GE present before us. This is not negotiable and yet NPCIL babu’s have frozen in the headlights and are ‘negotiating’.
They are likely to come to grief on this as well, probably in another embarrassing moment. There seems to be a deep well of disconnect in understanding.
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BTW just for reference as there seems to be far too much confusion ,
NRI - Non-Resident Indian. Meaning Indian citizen and still has right to vote and pays Indian taxes. Indian passport.
PIO – Person of Indian Origin. NOT Indian citizen, cannot vote in India and does not pay taxes to India. Not Indian passport.
These are not interchangeable.
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When I hire someone in USA I pay USA wages. When I hire someone in India I pay India wages. I don’t understand what is complicated about this.
BTW I do consider it shameful what we pay our domestics in India. This business must come to an end in India too, if we are to progress. No future to it. Sooner India folk, including me, reconcile to it the better. The way the rural economy is organized in India will make it really hard. Folks avoid change and purposely limit their earning potential. This is the core of what keeps India so stable but also what prevents wage growth.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 23:19
by chaanakya
Khobragade was in charge of sensitive desks so espionage angle of SR and her family could not be ruled out. She is no ordinary Maid for whom US would go to such an extraordinary length to put relationship at stake.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 10 Jan 2014 23:23
by ramana
Theo, I thought you were going on long drive today!!!
Taxonomy of Indians:
RNI, Resident Non Indian. Lives in India but bats for abroad.
There are others
NRNI- Non Resident Non Indian-Lives abroad and bats against India. Close to MUTU but thats a sub species of this group.