Statewide and National runup to 2014 General elections

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 07 Jan 2014 13:51

Kejriwal and YY are the bin laden and al-zawahari of Indian politics respectively.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 07 Jan 2014 13:57

Nitesh wrote:Haris saar, my point was that BJP even didn't tried to protest, or they did? correct me if I am wrong

Here, saar. is Arun Jaitley's response.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 491974.cms

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 07 Jan 2014 13:59

priyanka gandhi in meeting with AICC along with rahul, rumor rife that she may be campaigning for her brother

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 07 Jan 2014 14:02

nageshks wrote:
Nitesh wrote:Haris saar, my point was that BJP even didn't tried to protest, or they did? correct me if I am wrong
Here, saar. is Arun Jaitley's response.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 491974.cms

i am very sad that BJP doesn't get any space on national media, at best they are invited in discussion as only CON & AAP speaking on Kashmir will be pure nautanki. BJP should sponsor a channel which will air nationalist views like RT in Europe

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 07 Jan 2014 14:03

nageshks wrote: Here, saar. is Arun Jaitley's response.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 491974.cms

Thanks boss, that was as articulate as it can be, it seems media is deliberately hiding the facts that in fact jaitely has used this to dismiss the statement of kejriwal too. Here is kejriwal's statement:

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 468_1.html

“Deployment of the army within the country should be decided on the basis of internal security threat. There is no question of a referendum on this. But we believe the sentiments of locals should be respected. Otherwise, democracy will be under threat,” Kejriwal said.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 07 Jan 2014 14:21

IndraD wrote:
nageshks wrote:
Here, saar. is Arun Jaitley's response.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 491974.cms
i am very sad that BJP doesn't get any space on national media, at best they are invited in discussion as only CON & AAP speaking on Kashmir will be pure nautanki. BJP should sponsor a channel which will air nationalist views like RT in Europe

IndraDji, RT in Europe is possible because Putin backs it. Please see this video at about 32:56 (from Chanakya series), what people expect from BJP or anyone/anything that is anti-establishment has no chance, unless at least a section of establishment wants it to survive/prosper.

http://youtu.be/tVkdIuCSJaw?t=32m56s

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 07 Jan 2014 14:49

in spite of media antipathy if BJP has survived has so far it is a miracle, may be social media has a place to play but minimal in my opinion.

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 07 Jan 2014 14:53

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJMfqydeY4o

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Jan 2014 14:57

X-post:

sum wrote:Super article:
4 ways the Congress won power through Constitutional coups

I can think of at least four Constitutional coups that the Congress has pulled off successfully:

The 2008 cash-for-votes scam with which they overcame a no-confidence motion that would surely have toppled them;
The 2009 election in which considerable circumstantial evidence suggests that the party may have stolen the election by tampering with Electronic Voting Machines;
The hounding and harassing of B S Yeddyurappa in 2011 with the sole intent of toppling the BJP government in Karnataka. The courts later exonerated him;
The use of the Aam Aadmi Party as a fig leaf to retain effective power in Delhi in 2013.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 07 Jan 2014 15:19

Wondering why Rediff is posting anti-Cong articles. They have also posted Vicky Nanjappa's article where he claims ISI is blackmailing Cong politicians with their black money details. Something is changing.

archan · Post by **archan** » 07 Jan 2014 15:36

Perhaps its time to start visiting the site again!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jan 2014 15:38

Rajdeep Sardesai ‏@sardesairajdeep
Swabhimani Shetkari party leader and Ichalkaranji MP Raju Shetty joins NDA. So, now NDA has 4 parties officially. #ibnnews

Raju Shetti is from Swabhimani Paksha and he represents Hatkanangle Lok Sabha constituency. Swabhimani Paksha would most probably be contesting Madha & Hatkanangale.

He is mainly popular for his movements for maximum price for sugar-cane and milk. He is editor of a Marathi fortnighty "Swabhimani Vichar"

So in Maharashtra, it is BJP + Shiv Sena + RPI + Swabhimani Paksha alliance with perhaps tactical understanding with MNS.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jan 2014 15:55

Ð♄@η@ṧ♄ґḯ Ḱʊłкαґηḯ ‏@DhanushKool
SS & BJP Urban areas, RPI-SC/ST votes, SSS- farmers base, BJP's own vidarbha base+Modi factor = 30+seats/48 in MH. Now if MNS comes then 40+

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 07 Jan 2014 16:02

These days bachas from AAP are given equal representation on all panels equal to Congress and BJP. And these people are given a lot of wiggle room and their naive positions are not being questioned and treated as kids. Representation of BJP on these panels are a necessary evil so as to not cede space in any media. BJP has to let new spokespersons come in, the existing set must be jaded by now. With all due respect, people like Chandan Mitra are amazing in print media but on TV they lose their effectiveness.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 07 Jan 2014 16:23

BJP will have to start a news channel from sympathetic business house, there is no other way.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 07 Jan 2014 16:30

Psyops have begun.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/aap- ... 34914.html

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 21720.html

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 07 Jan 2014 16:44

So it has already getting stated that AAP will take 50 seats? Surprising

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jan 2014 16:50

ravi_g wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 21720.html

Now this is a pleasant surprise. BJP should get 2 from Arunachal Pradesh and 2 from Manipur, plus 6-7 from Assam in Northeast, plus 3 seats from allies (NPF, NPP, SDF).

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 07 Jan 2014 16:52

There is Sudarshan news which claims to be voice of Hindus but it has a very small viewer base and it was recently intimidated after the muzaffarnagar riots.

http://www.sudarshannews.com/news/

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 07 Jan 2014 16:55

Take care not to shoot the messanger. Swapan da is not popular but here is how he sees it.

http://www.swapan55.com/2014/01/a-commo ... losed.html

This is not to suggest that the AAP’s new-found support among the very people who had earlier lent their intellectual support to the Congress’s ‘inclusive’ politics is based on a belief that the new party can dramatically spread outside Delhi and engulf the whole of India. The realists acknowledge that outside Delhi, AAP’s best prospects are in Haryana, which has two competitive strands of unwholesome politics, and in western Uttar Pradesh — the regions which are part of an extended National Capital Region. However, it is calculated, not least by the Congress, that a spirited AAP intervention in about 50 urban-dominated Lok Sabha constituencies, which were expected to fall into the BJP’s kitty quite effortlessly, could end up stealing a sizable chunk of the saffron party’s middle class vote. If the AAP ends up depriving the BJP of at least 20 seats, it would put a big question mark over Modi’s ability to become prime minister.

Here is how things stacked up for BJP, just after the declaration of results on December 8 in Assembly elections 2013.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/articlePri ... aid=328662

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 07 Jan 2014 17:14

RajeshA wrote:
ravi_g wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 21720.html
<snip>

Now this is a pleasant surprise. BJP should get 2 from Arunachal Pradesh and 2 from Manipur, plus 6-7 from Assam in Northeast, plus 3 seats from allies (NPF, NPP, SDF).

These states were Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Kerala, West Bengal, Tripura, Mizoram, Manipur, Nagaland, Meghalaya and Sikkim.

Mostly states where BJP has not much presence or states where BJP has presence but the states are just too small.

Hence the earlier post showing the 11 states where BJP will score.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jan 2014 17:26

ravi_g ji,

NDA would be scoring some in other states as well: Kerala (7 with Kerala Congress), TN (9 with MDMK, PMK, KMK, DMDK), Andhra Pradesh (24 with TDP), Karnataka (20 with BSR Congress), Odisha (3 alone), WB (3 alone), Jharkhand (8 alone), Assam (9 with AGP, Bodo party), J&K (2 alone), Uttarkhand (5 alone). Then come another 5 seats from UTs and 3 from Northeast.

That is another 98 seats. So the map above tells only part of the story.

ashashi · Post by **ashashi** » 07 Jan 2014 17:39

krishnan wrote:
ashashi wrote:
who is that?
SAS Geelani

Maulana Kalbe Sadiq
http://indianmuslimlegends.blogspot.in/ ... sadiq.html

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 07 Jan 2014 17:41

RajeshA wrote:Rajdeep Sardesai ‏@sardesairajdeep
Swabhimani Shetkari party leader and Ichalkaranji MP Raju Shetty joins NDA. So, now NDA has 4 parties officially. #ibnnews

Raju Shetti is from Swabhimani Paksha and he represents Hatkanangle Lok Sabha constituency. Swabhimani Paksha would most probably be contesting Madha & Hatkanangale.

He is mainly popular for his movements for maximum price for sugar-cane and milk. He is editor of a Marathi fortnighty "Swabhimani Vichar"

So in Maharashtra, it is BJP + Shiv Sena + RPI + Swabhimani Paksha alliance with perhaps tactical understanding with MNS.

Raju insistent on Madha and Hatkanangale-ichalkaranji constituency. Madha is constituency of senior Pawar. Shetty is a big name in sugarcane lobby of western MH. He is demanding that all the NCP bastions be given to him. He is asking for Madha, Baramati, Osmanabad, Sangli, Kolhapur and hatkanangale. Out of these, he is insistent on Madha and hatkanangale and any other two seats in western MH. This is good news for NDA in long run (if this is a serious alliance like SS-BJP). The sangh cadre of western MH now has a cause to back NDA. Earlier it was hopeless and most of them backed NCP. AAP were eyeing them. NDA clinched the deal.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 07 Jan 2014 17:46

Was this posted before?

AAP may be heading towards same old toxic policies on quotas

With every passing day, the Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) is beginning to look like any other party – if one were to take the simple halo of anti-corruption away from it.

<snip>

But is speaking about extending the ambit of reservations a new way of thinking about old problems? And is this any way to keep on attracting the hordes of fresh faces now heading towards the AAP.

The main attraction of AAP for middle class professionals is that it is an equal opportunity party with no glass ceiling and with no pre-conceived notions on how to create inclusiveness.

In fact, the rush of talented individuals to AAP is directly related to the fact that its approaches will mark a break with the usual. AAP is believed to offer a meritocratic option to those who otherwise feel excluded and alienated from the political process.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 07 Jan 2014 17:50

UPA’s legacy: Honey, I shrunk the jobs market 25%

As the UPA prepares to leave office over the next three-four months, it will be leaving behind not only a decelerating economy with untamed inflation and weak government finances, but one that will be unable to produce jobs in the quantities required over the next five years.

<snip>

The 38 million new jobs created over the next five years would be a 25 percent drop from the 52 million created in the seven years between 2004-05 and 2011-12, which, in turn was lower than the 62 million created during the 1999-2004 NDA period.

Clearly, the economy is not creating as many jobs as it did earlier? What has gone wrong?

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 07 Jan 2014 17:59

RajeshA wrote:ravi_g ji,

NDA would be scoring some in other states as well: Kerala (7 with Kerala Congress), TN (9 with MDMK, PMK, KMK, DMDK), Andhra Pradesh (24 with TDP), Karnataka (20 with BSR Congress), Odisha (3 alone), WB (3 alone), Jharkhand (8 alone), Assam (9 with AGP, Bodo party), J&K (2 alone), Uttarkhand (5 alone). Then come another 5 seats from UTs and 3 from Northeast.

That is another 98 seats. So the map above tells only part of the story.

Exactly. But if you read the papers you would be made to believe exactly the reverse. I was cross at BJP having lost Delhi and the sheer stupidity of our youth who can be stupefied by something like a Disco mujra and play-acting. But I am gaining back the confidence in BJP/NaMo/NDA's ability across India. The psyops are however too irritating. Indics must start a new war to purge these influences from our youth. Feel like $#$%^$.

This time round people have to get out and mobilize others. If they do not then 2004, 2009 would repeat and only a blind man would ignore what these two points in time lead us into.

Happy thing to note - One sworn secularist stalwart who had once accused stalwarts on BRF of Hindutva-vaad also seems to be simply against a repeat of 2004/2009. Change is in the air. 2014 will be an inflection point for India, much like Shakti tests.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 07 Jan 2014 18:28

I think some kind of deal is going on in Maha and Haryana (2 weak links in Namo's armor). Swabhimani Paksha joining helps them. I think there is some kind of understanding with Nana Patekar and couple of other biggies who are amicable with MNS also. So in those seats MNS will not put up candidates and as a return favor BJP will help MNS in some seats. All this will be very covert so that mulayam and lalu dont get an issue to bash Modi.

For Haryana, the grapevine is that Gen VK Singh is going to fight on BJP ticket from Bhiwani.

Overall Modi's game in places where BJP has no org is to get biggies to contest.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jan 2014 18:33

ravi_g ji,

I was shocked at AAP's show in Delhi. In Delhi they were able to fight the elections as if they were municipal elections. However AAP would not get even one seat in whole of India in Lok Sabha.

I was thinking AAP would be able to put on a good show of keeping some distance from Congress, and retain their credibility. However it looks ever more like a bunch who are more excited about the fruits of power and living the life in the now, then in medium term strategic thinking.

By entering the government, they have made themselves a target for opposition's criticism. Now they are the establishment, BJP is then anti-establishment. Now BJP can go at them with a magnifying glass and then take them to the cleaners.

I am expecting that at the end of March, Arvind Kejriwal would do some new nautanki of anti-corruption. The problem is his pack just want to hug on to power and its perks now. They are not in a mood to break their coalition with Congress. If they did, and govt falls, who knows which AAP MLA may become bikaau.

Also I am fully expecting BJP to steal the anti-corruption and anti-establishment thunder from AAP.

I don't see AAP expanding much. In Haryana and Western UP, Jat politics would be active. In Mumbai, BJP and Sena would flood the opposition space. In Bengaluru, there may be some more AAP, but they would be fighting a reenergized BJP led by BSY.

The thing to remember is that AAP has the most fickle of the support bases of any party - middle class and urban yuppie youth. Their political attention spans are 6 months to 2 years.

They really only have LS 2014 to make a mark for themselves in politics. If it doesn't work out for them in some Third Front govt formation and if the Delhi Govt. falls in 6 months, then they are history. Yuppies would move on. NGO activists would have their money pipeline blown away by Modi govt. MSM would go silent under Modi.

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 07 Jan 2014 18:51

Hmm so some gora babu gives a lecture in IIC about how AAP will get 50 seats. Interesting. This reminds me of that Grisham novel where Rankin Fitch manipulates an election in Mississippi to get a candidate elected. The Americans have created this AAP to do manipulation at a wholesaler's level as it is easier to control and also cheaper. It also appears that they have gone for broke as almost all of their assets are being thrown into the fight. 50 seats will give them veto power to decide the fate of this country.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 07 Jan 2014 20:03

RajeshA wrote:ravi_g ji,

I was shocked at AAP's show in Delhi. In Delhi they were able to fight the elections as if they were municipal elections. However AAP would not get even one seat in whole of India in Lok Sabha.

Can they get 5% of polled votes in LS?

And this time, hey wont get even one slum, muslim, dalit votes. Now all votes are coming for anti-corruption youth and middle class only.

So say they get 0 seats. But can they get 5% of across India?

If yes, whom do they do damage to?

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 07 Jan 2014 20:08

Atri wrote:
Raju insistent on Madha and Hatkanangale-ichalkaranji constituency. Madha is constituency of senior Pawar. Shetty is a big name in sugarcane lobby of western MH. He is demanding that all the NCP bastions be given to him. He is asking for Madha, Baramati, Osmanabad, Sangli, Kolhapur and hatkanangale. Out of these, he is insistent on Madha and hatkanangale and any other two seats in western MH. This is good news for NDA in long run (if this is a serious alliance like SS-BJP). The sangh cadre of western MH now has a cause to back NDA. Earlier it was hopeless and most of them backed NCP. AAP were eyeing them. NDA clinched the deal.

Current MLA's

Madha - Babanrao Shinde - Independent
Baramati - Ajit Pawar - NCP
Osmanabad - RN Bhupalsinha - NCP
Sangli - Sambhaji Pawar - Congress
Kolhapur South - Satej Patil - Congress
Kolhapur North -Rajesh Kshirsagar - NCP
Hatkanangale - Sujit Minachekar - NCP

Current MP's
Madha - Sharad Pawar -NCP
Baramati - Supriya Sule - NCP
Osmanabad - Padamsinh Patil - NCP
Sangli - Pratik Patil -Congress
Kolhapur - Sadashiv Mandalik - Independent
Hatkanangale - Raju Shetti - Swabhiman Paksha

2 seats from Pawarsaheb's bastion onlee. Perhaps sangli as its with congis. Can Raju Shetti turn this around?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jan 2014 20:16

Rahul Mehta wrote:
RajeshA wrote:ravi_g ji,

I was shocked at AAP's show in Delhi. In Delhi they were able to fight the elections as if they were municipal elections. However AAP would not get even one seat in whole of India in Lok Sabha.
Can they get 5% of polled votes in LS?

And this time, hey wont get even one slum, muslim, dalit votes. Now all votes are coming for anti-corruption youth and middle class only.

So say they get 0 seats. But can they get 5% of across India?

If yes, whom do they do damage to?

No I don't think they can get 5%. 5% is too much! 5% means they would be getting 30 million votes.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 07 Jan 2014 20:26

A nice article on how AAP *is* the system that its trying to change. The insight that this article offers is that it ties the proposed policies of AAP with corruption itself, thus destroying the very foundation of AAP's rise:

http://vicharprachar.wordpress.com/2014 ... to-change/

Prem Ji, glad you liked the article. The problem is many youngsters are too intellectually lazy to understand the very politics of Kejri albeit in Jeans instead of the aam Dhoti/lungi is the root cause of corruption in India.

member_24540 · Post by **member_24540** » 07 Jan 2014 20:32

Based on a bunch of discussions I have been having or witnessing recently on facebook/twitter and in person, I might venture as to say that there are two types of AAP supporters.

1. The type who try to characterize issues facing the country on a singular issue (Example: Corruption and nothing else matters…). I have a feeling this group can be more easily convinced by mainstream opinions and hence the MSM/Propaganda seems to work here more.
- Conversely the performance of AAP in Delhi and the slow but sure unwrapping of the agenda of AAP (caste bank, religion, license raj and army issues) would help in convincing this set of voters about the futility of supporting AAP.

2. The more hardcore supporters here are very vehemently left-liberal and indeed of the type who think a Binayak Sen or a YY should be praised for their moral stance even if it is detrimental to the whole concept of our nation. They adopt a pretty un-realistic moral stance and hence are more preachy. In their mind, referendums on Kashmir are a non-issue and Kashmir can be given away. On being asked, "what happens if suddenly a majority in a state want the British to come back", they were ‘perfectly’ fine with it.

The type 2 is almost completely de-racinated and anything Hindu/Eastern/Bharatiya is anathema for them and they would never vote for BJP anyway.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 07 Jan 2014 20:34

Rahul Mehta wrote:
RajeshA wrote:ravi_g ji,

I was shocked at AAP's show in Delhi. In Delhi they were able to fight the elections as if they were municipal elections. However AAP would not get even one seat in whole of India in Lok Sabha.
Can they get 5% of polled votes in LS?

And this time, hey wont get even one slum, muslim, dalit votes. Now all votes are coming for anti-corruption youth and middle class only.

So say they get 0 seats. But can they get 5% of across India?

If yes, whom do they do damage to?

First of all, lets get this loud and clear. The youth and middle class did not vote for BJP in 2009. They voted heavily for congress. Next: The yuppie youth and upper middle class (sickular and people who ashamed to call themselves hindus) never voted for BJP and will not vote for Namo anyway.

See the ABP poll, Namo is topping like crazy, Khujliwal took all of raul baba vote onlee. Sir ji, one thing is clear, the voters whose imagination that Namo captured before Dec 8, 2013 will not move an inch away from Namo. The only damage AK and his coterie can do is marginally stop Namo from attracting any more base.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 07 Jan 2014 20:34

RajeshA wrote:AAP can really be contained by waging a Social Media campaign against them simply on frivolous matters, doing with all the ways they are not Aam Aadmi, their agenda is socialist, there is nothing to their ideas, their ideas are stolen, their treatment of other citizens, etc.

This keeps them off-balance and on the defensive, and basically they won't be able to achieve much in Dehi in the next couple of months.

True words. SM is the silver bullet against AAP who has no actual cadre on ground. Actually SM can be used to split anti bjp votes into AAP and others by targeting AAP's pro minority views and stand on Kashmir.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 07 Jan 2014 20:48

I have not had a chance to look seriously into the merits of BJP's case for abolishing income tax.

But this a super bullet, something that will kill AAP in a day. I say do the calcs fast and if you really feel that the state will not accrue any extra deficit or on the contrary increase earnings, go ahead and announce it. My guess is that they will. This is a big, really big idea. They need to wait for a month or so and see what all nonsense AAP will do to gain media space while BJP should focus on ticket distribution. Then one fine morning, BJP should just announce, no more income tax.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 07 Jan 2014 20:48

Shivatar i think your characterization is quite good and accurate. It's the 1st group casual voter kinds that think Corruption is the root cause (they have actually been sold this concept through the AH movement itself) that indeed can be corrected. Need to spread the fact that corruption is not removed just by a magic wand or magic broom, but by addressing systemic issues that cause corrupt practices to happen in the first place. Need to make young people understand that a jeans clad believer in these policies = Dhoti clad one. No difference.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 07 Jan 2014 20:50

RajeshA wrote: Also I am fully expecting BJP to steal the anti-corruption and anti-establishment thunder from AAP.

I don't see AAP expanding much. In Haryana and Western UP, Jat politics would be active. In Mumbai, BJP and Sena would flood the opposition space. In Bengaluru, there may be some more AAP, but they would be fighting a reenergized BJP led by BSY.

The thing to remember is that AAP has the most fickle of the support bases of any party - middle class and urban yuppie youth. Their political attention spans are 6 months to 2 years.

They really only have LS 2014 to make a mark for themselves in politics. If it doesn't work out for them in some Third Front govt formation and if the Delhi Govt. falls in 6 months, then they are history. Yuppies would move on. NGO activists would have their money pipeline blown away by Modi govt. MSM would go silent under Modi.

The anti-corruption thunder is already getting taken back and I expect this to grow.

In Haryana, I would like to differ from your view. AAP is doing a 'divide and rule' campaign against BJP in Haryana. A reasonably big gathering in Balabhgarh (faridabad area) was conducted and it is entirely tactical. I see difficulties in Haryana. Gurgaon is a huge huge laundering machine and the empire will not let go of it. OTOH Indics must choke the empire on all the resources - vote base resource before GE-2014 and laundering resources after that. In fact it is to be noted that the money and muscles for AAP come from Haryana only.

I would also differ on the yuppie front. Yuppieism unlike poverty, is actually a state of mind. Been through it. And to me Yuppieism looks like an extension of the leftist tendencies that everybody sports at age 20. I think Indics can turn a lot away from it by the time these people hit 27-30. And the people who do eventually get turned would bear so much anger at having been fooled that they will become the next shikhandi. Above all motivations a 'face' is very important for most and is a good LCD on which pretty much everybody can be denominated. And a convert yuppie is going to be one very angry yuppie once he faces the fact of having been used and lost 'face'.