2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 01 Dec 2020 04:27

Looks like father of JNU student Shela has gone dharmic, claims his daughter is antinational and daughter calls him wife beater (all out in open):

Apparently according to her, muslims don't lie.

https://twitter.com/M_kasheer/status/13 ... 8775683073

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Dec 2020 05:17

An informative overview of the agricultural protests.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-54930380

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Dec 2020 06:04

The only thing she can accuse him further is of child molestation, ack thoo on these leftists

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 01 Dec 2020 06:25

suryag wrote:The only thing she can accuse him further is of child molestation, ack thoo on these leftists

Funnily enough that might actually be true. ropers feast on their own first before venturing out in the wild

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 01 Dec 2020 08:40

One question that I would dearly like to have answered is what is the aggregate land holding of farmers squatting on the road at the Singhu border and who is tending to the wheat fields, while they are away?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2020 12:11

nandakumar wrote:One question that I would dearly like to have answered is what is the aggregate land holding of farmers squatting on the road at the Singhu border and who is tending to the wheat fields, while they are away?

someone on tv was just now saying that the average landholding of a punjab farmer is 3.1 hectares which is 3 times the average national holding and the subsidy per family is about 1.2 lakhs per annum on primary inputs like power, fertilizer, water etc which no other state gives/can afford to give.

Even punjab has gone into dire financial straits just by pandering to these guys and now amarinder slyly wants the center to pick up the tab for what is essentially the state bribing its vote banks under the guise of "subsidies".

these are certainly not marginal farmers, as is being made out.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2020 14:24

can't believe that this opportunistic piece of political crap has poked his white nose into India's internal affairs again.

what next.... bhangra once again in garishly colorful costumes

TIMES NOW@TimesNow·1h

#BREAKING | Canadian PM @JustinTrudeau raises issue of farmers' protest in India; says that Canada will always be there to defend right to hold peaceful protest.

'We believe in importance of dialogue, we've reached out via multiple means directly to Indian authorities', he says.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2020 14:35

TIMES NOW@TimesNow·5h

#Breaking | US Govt makes submission in California court that Tahawwur Rana, the key accused of 26/11 Mumbai attack, be cleared for extradition to India.

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 01 Dec 2020 15:14

chetak wrote:can't believe that this opportunistic piece of political crap has poked his white nose into India's internal affairs again.

what next.... bhangra once again in garishly colorful costumes

And this is how they deal with their own peaceful protesters.

Exclusive: Canada police prepared to shoot Indigenous activists, documents show

Notes from a strategy session for a militarized raid on ancestral lands of the Wet’suwet’en nation show that commanders of Canada’s national police force, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), argued that “lethal overwatch is req’d” – a term for deploying an officer who is prepared to use lethal force.

The RCMP commanders also instructed officers to “use as much violence toward the gate as you want” ahead of the operation to remove a roadblock which had been erected by Wet’suwet’en people to control access to their territories and stop construction of the proposed 670km (416-mile) Coastal GasLink pipeline (CGL).

These people do as much dirty dirty as the next guy but are always the first to lecture others.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 01 Dec 2020 15:20

chetak wrote:
nandakumar wrote:One question that I would dearly like to have answered is what is the aggregate land holding of farmers squatting on the road at the Singhu border and who is tending to the wheat fields, while they are away?
someone on tv was just now saying that the average landholding of a punjab farmer is 3.1 hectares which is 3 times the average national holding and the subsidy per family is about 1.2 lakhs per annum on primary inputs like power, fertilizer, water etc which no other state gives/can afford to give.

Even punjab has gone into dire financial straits just by pandering to these guys and now amarinder slyly wants the center to pick up the tab for what is essentially the state bribing its vote banks under the guise of "subsidies".

these are certainly not marginal farmers, as is being made out.

Thanks. The frustrating thing for me as retired journalist is to see reporters, the current lot I mean, instead of probing away to find the truth have reduced themselves to mere human dictaphones and faithfully reproduce what is being told to them. Take the Arnab's interview with the Punjab Chief Minister. I watched it. Well not all of it. From what I saw it was clear that it was all theatre. Fundamental questions such as why should it be assumed that the FCI procurement would be stopped once private trade enters Punjab? Or what is the basis for saying that FCI would be wound up? There was no attempt to establish the fact that the agitation was not driven by genuine anxieties about livelihood or the exact opposite. In short, the truth.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2020 16:04

Isn't there a mandatory prison sentence in India for such crimes.

some of our "journos" would certainly benefit with a spell of incarceration, with time to reflect in peace, on the evil that have done.

with lootyens darbari james, it could become a convivial friends and family outing for a few years, no

per wiki

Rajat Kumar Gupta was convicted in June 2012 on insider trading charges of four criminal felony counts of conspiracy and securities fraud in the Galleon scandal. He was sentenced in October 2012 to two years in prison, an additional year on supervised release and ordered to pay $5 million in fines.

NDTV’s Prannoy Roy and wife Radhika caught for insider trading by SEBI. Rs.16.97 crores fine imposed and banned for two years from stock exchanges https://pgurus.com/ndtvs-prannoy-roy-an ... exchanges/ via@PGurus1

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2020 16:12

posted without comment

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2020 16:23

Dear @narendramodi ji

How come 80% of wheat in Punjab is picked up by FCI at MSP whereas only 3% of UP farmers get it.

Punjab farmers apparently believe that middlemen run their homes.

Let's equally distribute FCI quota across all states and be fair to all.

Punjab has options.

via @muglikar_

Punjab is Neither No 1 Wheat nor is No 1 Rice Producer

UP has approx. double Wheat & same Rice Production than Punjab

But look at FCI procurement data of Rice and Wheat Production statewise share of 2019-20. Punjab approx 200% More than UP

via @kashmiriRefuge

Mollick.R · Post by **Mollick.R** » 01 Dec 2020 16:33

chetak wrote:can't believe that this opportunistic piece of political crap has poked his white nose into India's internal affairs again.
what next.... bhangra once again in garishly colorful costumes
TIMES NOW@TimesNow·1h
#BREAKING | Canadian PM @JustinTrudeau raises issue of farmers' protest in India; says that Canada will always be there to defend right to hold peaceful protest.'We believe in importance of dialogue, we've reached out via multiple means directly to Indian authorities', he says.

This is crossing the red lines in diplomacy, india should retaliate in appropriate way to Southern America

& make gay prince some price................

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2020 16:39

Farmers bills is for the benefit of farmers.

via@SPunthambekar

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2020 16:57

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 01 Dec 2020 19:09

Canadian Joker has issued a statement in favor of the protestors. This is a blatant interference. Let's not forget this is going to be a seige on the national capital via 5 entry points.

Amb. should be summoned & a demarche issued.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 01 Dec 2020 19:31

As expected there was no breakthrough after today's talks between the ministry of Agriculture and protesting farmers. Well, some factions of the "farmers" have already said they have no intention of talking until the government withdraws the bill, so they in it for the long haul. After SDPI, PFI, Bhim Army and the JNU dafli gang, TIMES cover Shaheen Bagh Bilkis grandma is on her way to north Delhi to join the farmers blocking the highway, so much for this being anything about the farm bill or even farmers.

In other news China's defense minister Gen Wei Fenghe has been jet-setting between China-Pakistan-Nepal. After meeting Bajwa he has now met Gen Thapa of Nepal armed forces. I wouldn't be too surprised if the activation of 0.5 front within India is a prelude to activating two fronts on India's western and eastern borders, and now that Hilal-e-Bakistan Biden is entering to whitehouse, the time may be ripe for them to attack. I don't think the increase in shelling, infiltration, SSG BAT attacks on the border, BIF gang taking over Delhi and Gen Fenghe's trips are all a coincidence , Pakis have always taken advantage in times of global turmoil .

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2020 19:46

Did you know?

During revolt of 1857, the British got the Sultan of Turkey (Caliph) to issue an order in favor of the British.

As a result, Indian Muslims began to look upon the British as friends and protectors.

Not my words, but from a PhD thesis at Aligarh Muslim University.

Shamshad Ali, "Indian Muslims and the Ottoman Empire", PhD thesis (1990), Aligarh Muslim University.

if interested, download the thesis from the link below

Source: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/144518161.pdf

via @AbhishBanerj

ManSingh · Post by **ManSingh** » 01 Dec 2020 20:55

Suraj wrote:
ManSingh wrote:I would still re-iterate that the current issue is an economic one and not a political one ( as yet ). Khap panchayats and farm leaders from Rajasthan and Western U.P. have been supportive and are actively participating in current protests.
Is it an economic one, or an economic patronage one ? There's a significant difference between the two.

An economic one is one that due to a combination of potentially localized factors, results in Punjab's farm productivity and economic activity to be negatively effected. Economic reasons can further be natural or unnatural. For example, a natural reason is that the farm bill weakened APMCs, resulting in delays in offtake or procurement that caused losses to farmers, This could be a temporary issue. An unnatural reason is that a high artificial price basis was eliminated due to the farm bill, resulting in lower incomes . This is likely a more permanent problem unless farmers respond by diversifying into crops with higher profits.

An issue of economic patronage of course, is that the wealthy landed political class with a history of APMC driven wealth and graft, are fomenting 'farm protests' as a political exercise. As chetak posted earlier, any sudden well organized protest is a sure sign of foreign money and influence at work.

It's possible that reality is not one but a combination of all of these. But even so, are the members of this protest primarily about any one motive ?

An unnatural reason is that a high artificial price basis was eliminated due to the farm bill, resulting in lower incomes . This is likely a more permanent problem unless farmers respond by diversifying into crops with higher profits.

This is exactly what it is. The prices of certain crops were guaranteed due to MSP mechanism. Now with entry of private players it is feared that the MSP mechanism will gradually be dismantled ( not immediately ). Crop diversification does not work with the current infrastructure. Lack of cold storage, high prices and lack of a distribution chain or even a framework to do so. India has a long way to go before this becomes a reality.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 01 Dec 2020 21:20

Government has clarified repeatedly there is no change to the current MSP mechanism, MSP cannot be codified, it cannot be made into a law but it will continue to be supported within administrative framework. Secondly, this bill is a great opportunity for farmers to form co-ops of their own to bargain within private buyers, the price they sell to private parties will be the price the farmers decide. Apparently another concern the farmers of Punjab have is that with the farm bill, the government may taper its purchases for PDS program. Again, government has not said anything about changes to PDS program, and even if there is a reduction, the farmers can sell it to other parties at a price dictated by the farmers . Today, the farmers who grow produce outside of the 20 odd commodities covered by MSP sell based on the price set by the wholesale markets, how is it fair that only one section of the farmers who produce commercial crops need assurance that everything they produce will be purchased at MSP where as majority of other farmers end up selling at market decided prices and sometimes throw away their produce angered by low prices ? Congresses pandering for votes for 70 years has created an upside down economy where without the government's crutches no one wants to take a step forward.

siddhu · Post by **siddhu** » 01 Dec 2020 21:35

ManSingh wrote:
Suraj wrote: Is it an economic one, or an economic patronage one ? There's a significant difference between the two.

An economic one is one that due to a combination of potentially localized factors, results in Punjab's farm productivity and economic activity to be negatively effected. Economic reasons can further be natural or unnatural. For example, a natural reason is that the farm bill weakened APMCs, resulting in delays in offtake or procurement that caused losses to farmers, This could be a temporary issue. An unnatural reason is that a high artificial price basis was eliminated due to the farm bill, resulting in lower incomes . This is likely a more permanent problem unless farmers respond by diversifying into crops with higher profits.

An issue of economic patronage of course, is that the wealthy landed political class with a history of APMC driven wealth and graft, are fomenting 'farm protests' as a political exercise. As chetak posted earlier, any sudden well organized protest is a sure sign of foreign money and influence at work.

It's possible that reality is not one but a combination of all of these. But even so, are the members of this protest primarily about any one motive ?
An unnatural reason is that a high artificial price basis was eliminated due to the farm bill, resulting in lower incomes . This is likely a more permanent problem unless farmers respond by diversifying into crops with higher profits.

This is exactly what it is. The prices of certain crops were guaranteed due to MSP mechanism. Now with entry of private players it is feared that the MSP mechanism will gradually be dismantled ( not immediately ). Crop diversification does not work with the current infrastructure. Lack of cold storage, high prices and lack of a distribution chain or even a framework to do so. India has a long way to go before this becomes a reality.

Most of the farmers dont get MSP, very few get it. In that also a part of harvest is bought as MSP which is not enough. Forget about MSP, crop insurances after the floods are not delivered to the farmers. Everything gets eaten up by the system.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2020 21:56

Ambar wrote:Government has clarified repeatedly there is no change to the current MSP mechanism, MSP cannot be codified, it cannot be made into a law but it will continue to be supported within administrative framework. Secondly, this bill is a great opportunity for farmers to form co-ops of their own to bargain within private buyers, the price they sell to private parties will be the price the farmers decide. Apparently another concern the farmers of Punjab have is that with the farm bill, the government may taper its purchases for PDS program. Again, government has not said anything about changes to PDS program, and even if there is a reduction, the farmers can sell it to other parties at a price dictated by the farmers . Today, the farmers who grow produce outside of the 20 odd commodities covered by MSP sell based on the price set by the wholesale markets, how is it fair that only one section of the farmers who produce commercial crops need assurance that everything they produce will be purchased at MSP where as majority of other farmers end up selling at market decided prices and sometimes throw away their produce angered by low prices ? Congresses pandering for votes for 70 years has created an upside down economy where without the government's crutches no one wants to take a step forward.

As long as the PDS system continues in India, the procurement of food grains by the govt and the MSP mechanism will have to remain.

no govt can do away with the PDS and still survive, atleast not in the short to medium term, which may, at the very least, run easily for 2-3 decades, if not more.

But the MSP regime will have to be more equitably distributed to let eligible farmers from every state to take a bite of the MSP pie because now every farmer has become aware of his rights.

no govt can agree to let the MSP prevail for everything that the farmer wishes to produce. Free power, fertilizer etc will gradually be phased out as it is a drag on the state's finances and a really wasteful method of propping up any sector of the economy.

farmers in punjab are convinced that the country cannot survive without them and if they start to act up, the govt at the center will fall.

this blocking of roads is a particularly vile tactic, tried out on a large scale during shaheenbagh-1 and coordinated, as well as, hawala funded by offshore BIF forces.

the judiciary will not even open its mouth to uphold every citizen's fundamental rights.

M_Joshi · Post by **M_Joshi** » 01 Dec 2020 21:58

chetak wrote:
nandakumar wrote:One question that I would dearly like to have answered is what is the aggregate land holding of farmers squatting on the road at the Singhu border and who is tending to the wheat fields, while they are away?
someone on tv was just now saying that the average landholding of a punjab farmer is 3.1 hectares which is 3 times the average national holding and the subsidy per family is about 1.2 lakhs per annum on primary inputs like power, fertilizer, water etc which no other state gives/can afford to give.

Even punjab has gone into dire financial straits just by pandering to these guys and now amarinder slyly wants the center to pick up the tab for what is essentially the state bribing its vote banks under the guise of "subsidies".

these are certainly not marginal farmers, as is being made out.

Most of these so called protesting farmers are from Sangrur belt in Punjab which a relatively high communist dominanted area anywhere in North India. That's one reason why AAP does well in this region in Punjab. Most of their MLAs & MPs are from this belt. Modi can offer them gold biscuits instead of MSPs these people will not move. Their motive is to protest, not to find a solution. That is the nucleas & electrons like Khaliatanis, JNU, Bhim, AAP Delhi have joined around it.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2020 22:21

Sonugn wrote:Canadian Joker has issued a statement in favor of the protestors. This is a blatant interference. Let's not forget this is going to be a seige on the national capital via 5 entry points.

Amb. should be summoned & a demarche issued.

ANI@ANI·6h

We've seen some ill-informed comments by Canadian leaders relating to farmers in India. These are unwarranted especially when pertaining to internal affairs of a democratic country. It's also best that diplomatic conversations aren't misrepresented for political purposes:MEA Spox

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 01 Dec 2020 22:31

Canada has one of the highest Khalistani population all 2nd/3rd gen Sikhs there with no real roots or sense of history just regurgitating whatever urban legends they've been told. Their primary source of information is Sikhwiki an ISI funded venture.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 01 Dec 2020 23:14

vimal wrote:Canada has one of the highest Khalistani population all 2nd/3rd gen Sikhs there with no real roots or sense of history just regurgitating whatever urban legends they've been told. Their primary source of information is Sikhwiki an ISI funded venture.

It's the same in the US also. I visited a Gurdwara in Illinois about 10 years ago and it will full Khalistani with Satwant/Kehar portraits and a drawing of Indira Gandhi hanging from a tree. An eye opener. Like you say it's the kids of those who came in 1980s who are brainwashed by their parents and who don't realize that India has moved on.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 02 Dec 2020 00:44

Parsa Venkateshwar Rao Jr | Will our farmers force arrogant govt to yield?

Read the article closely, putting aside your feelings about the author's bias.

My takeaway is crystal clear: the issue is not the economic merits of the new farm laws at all, it is purely political, and that too very narrowly political: cutting Modi down to size.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Dec 2020 00:59

KLNMurthy wrote:Parsa Venkateshwar Rao Jr | Will our farmers force arrogant govt to yield?

Read the article closely, putting aside your feelings about the author's bias.

My takeaway is crystal clear: the issue is not the economic merits of the new farm laws at all, it is purely political, and that too very narrowly political: cutting Modi down to size.

forget the patronizing and inneundo filled article saar, even the writer's name is pretentious.

this opinionated ass could well have called himself Parsa Venkateshwar Rao II, why limit oneself only to Jr.

but there is no doubt that these guys have ganged up on Modi and a panicked BIF is trying to sabotage him with shaheenbagh-2, just as they tried to do during shaheenbagh-1, before he becomes so powerful and popular that it becomes very difficult for them.

twitter and facebook are on short notice with some wallet heavy californian punks having tried their luck.

the unmistakable message in recent bans on 43 odd more chinese apps was clearly meant for other targets who are squarely in the crosshairs.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 02 Dec 2020 01:14

ManSingh wrote: ...
This is exactly what it is. The prices of certain crops were guaranteed due to MSP mechanism. Now with entry of private players it is feared that the MSP mechanism will gradually be dismantled ( not immediately ). Crop diversification does not work with the current infrastructure. Lack of cold storage, high prices and lack of a distribution chain or even a framework to do so. India has a long way to go before this becomes a reality.

How will the MSP mechanism gradually get dismantled by the opening up of the marketplace to private players? I am a total layman, and my naive economic reasoning is as follows:

I assume that, even without the private players being allowed, the mandi MSP is still subject to fluctuations due to demand, supply, inflation, change in input costs, political pressure, etc., though obviously not as much as a fully open market price. (Here, it seems that the more the mandi MSP price tends to be fixed, the weaker the argument that there will be a downward pressure on mandi MSP due to presence of private players.). Without this assumption, your claim of gradual dismantling of the mandi doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Now suppose MSP for wheat is Rs. 50 per quintal or something. Then suppose, in the open market, a private player offers Rs. 45 per quintal. Why would the farmer take the Rs. 45 instead of the Rs. 50? Unless the mandi (which is controlled by the state government, right?) then decides that market price is only Rs. 45, so, let us reduce the MSP to Rs. 45. That would be a case of downward pressure on the price. But here, I don't know whether the mandi is autonomous enough so that the mandi MSP can be dropped arbitrarily like that or it should go through a deliberation process to drop the price for next crop cycle, so there may actually be a check on the mandi MSP tracking (maybe with lag) the downward change in the open market price.

But let us say the mandi MSP does get dropped. And let us assume it gets dropped for the next cycle (i.e., with a lag) which is more realistic. Market price could also change in the next cycle. The new mandi MSP either it beats the open market price (if it dropped to Rs. 40), in which case the farmer gets the Rs. 45, or it is below the market price (if market price rose to Rs. 55), in which case the farmer will ditch the mandi and sell to the private buyer at Rs. 55. In this case, the mandi loses its commission, and so has less money with which to compete with the open market for the next cycle. If the state government & politicians are not sincere about keeping up the mandi and the MSP, they might use this as an excuse for closing the mandi altogether. But to do that, they would have to overcome the might of the farmers' lobby, which we are seeing in Delhi today.

Why would the farmers' lobby sit on its hands and allow the closure of the mandi tomorrow (the "not immediately" point of time in your post), but fight tooth & nail today against the opportunity for the farmers to make Rs. 50 instead of Rs. 45? Why not just lobby at the state level to use taxpayer money to offset the loss of commission suffered when the market beats the mandi, since the only actual Rupee cost in that case will be the overhead needed to keep the mandi open, staff paid etc., (maybe requisition transport also?) standing by for the time when market price drops below the MSP, or there is a national emergency, or some contingency like that?

Please explain to me the flaws and mistakes in my reasoning.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Dec 2020 01:17

M_Joshi wrote:
chetak wrote:
someone on tv was just now saying that the average landholding of a punjab farmer is 3.1 hectares which is 3 times the average national holding and the subsidy per family is about 1.2 lakhs per annum on primary inputs like power, fertilizer, water etc which no other state gives/can afford to give.

Even punjab has gone into dire financial straits just by pandering to these guys and now amarinder slyly wants the center to pick up the tab for what is essentially the state bribing its vote banks under the guise of "subsidies".

these are certainly not marginal farmers, as is being made out.
Most of these so called protesting farmers are from Sangrur belt in Punjab which a relatively high communist dominanted area anywhere in North India. That's one reason why AAP does well in this region in Punjab. Most of their MLAs & MPs are from this belt. Modi can offer them gold biscuits instead of MSPs these people will not move. Their motive is to protest, not to find a solution. That is the nucleas & electrons like Khaliatanis, JNU, Bhim, AAP Delhi have joined around it.

so, come sowing season, will these guys will be heading back home, or maybe even earlier due to the migrant labor shortage

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 02 Dec 2020 01:22

What I see is an emotive and irrational fear & loathing of "corporates" and their "profit motive", and maybe a kind of envy factor or status anxiety on the part of the wealthier kulak farmer that their more marginal brethren will now be bridging the economic and status gap that now exists. IOW, it is better for the kulaks to sacrifice the possibility of making more money for themselves (which has low marginal utility for them anyway), if the reward is that their poorer counterparts will not have the opportunity to use the open market (driven by said "corporates" and their "profit motive") to better themselves and start strutting around like they are equal to the kulaks.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Dec 2020 01:39

KLNMurthy wrote:What I see is an emotive and irrational fear & loathing of "corporates" and their "profit motive", and maybe a kind of envy factor or status anxiety on the part of the wealthier kulak farmer that their more marginal brethren will now be bridging the economic and status gap that now exists. IOW, it is better for the kulaks to sacrifice the possibility of making more money for themselves (which has low marginal utility for them anyway), if the reward is that their poorer counterparts will not have the opportunity to use the open market (driven by said "corporates" and their "profit motive") to better themselves and start strutting around like they are equal to the kulaks.

a large percentage of the grain farmers anyway do not get the MSP advantage so they are forced to sell at the very same mandis but at prices well below the MSP, grains which the agents buy at distress sale prices and sell at MSP through their contacts in the APMC mandis and FCI offices

but to take these "agents" out, the regional satraps have to be politically crosshaired, defanged and rendered venomless.

I am very sure that some poworfull and also congi peoples are additionally and secretly funding this shsheenbagh-2 in a very circuitous manner because they are themselves unable to raise their heads against the farm laws in their own states.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 02 Dec 2020 01:50

chetak wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:What I see is an emotive and irrational fear & loathing of "corporates" and their "profit motive", and maybe a kind of envy factor or status anxiety on the part of the wealthier kulak farmer that their more marginal brethren will now be bridging the economic and status gap that now exists. IOW, it is better for the kulaks to sacrifice the possibility of making more money for themselves (which has low marginal utility for them anyway), if the reward is that their poorer counterparts will not have the opportunity to use the open market (driven by said "corporates" and their "profit motive") to better themselves and start strutting around like they are equal to the kulaks.
a large percentage of the grain farmers anyway do not get the MSP advantage so they are forced to sell at the very same mandis but at prices well below the MSP, grains which the agents buy at distress sale prices and sell at MSP through their contacts in the APMC mandis and FCI offices

...

If that's so, then what use are the mandis in the first place?

Srutayus · Post by **Srutayus** » 02 Dec 2020 02:05

If that's so, then what use are the mandis in the first place?

A pertinent question and one which will become even more pertinent over the coming years. Whatever their original intent, they have morphed into a major node in a socio-political system in many parts of the country rife with rent-seeking.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 02 Dec 2020 02:29

Canadian press article with pictures of protests in British Columbia.

B.C. politicians, local farmers worried about unrest in India's Punjab and Haryana states

Given a couple of quotes like this one below, I wonder if Punjab farmland or farming rights are owned by Canadians. That might explain why Canadians are getting worked up over the prospects of the farm legislation.

The unrest is being closely watched by many people in B.C. who come from the area and still own property there.

ManSingh · Post by **ManSingh** » 02 Dec 2020 02:34

MSP ( minus mandi fees ) is guaranteed for a crop covered by MSP mechanism. There are no variances in payouts or middlemen taking a cut here. There is no variation in prices either. It almost always increases every year.

Middlemen make money on advancing loans against future produce. Farmers need money to pay for inputs. When formal channels of banking are exhausted or a farmer does not qualify for a loan, the farmer asks middlemen/Arhtiyas. They charge an exorbitant interest rate for this. Also the arhtiyas have some influence on whose crop gets picked first but this is not a deal breaker.

Mandi fees sustains the infrastructure necessary for APMC mandi's ( where MSP priced crops are purchased). This infra is the responsibility of the state government who also collects the mandi fees for this purpose alone. With any drop in crops procured under APMC, the mandi fees collection will also drop. This also means the infra required for such procurement will/can not be maintained as present and may gradually wither away.

Hope it helps.

ManSingh · Post by **ManSingh** » 02 Dec 2020 02:36

vera_k wrote:Canadian press article with pictures of protests in British Columbia.

B.C. politicians, local farmers worried about unrest in India's Punjab and Haryana states

Given a couple of quotes like this one below, I wonder if Punjab farmland or farming rights are owned by Canadians. That might explain why Canadians are getting worked up over the prospects of the farm legislation.

The unrest is being closely watched by many people in B.C. who come from the area and still own property there.

Nothing wrong here. Land inheritance is not affected by citizenship. NRI's can not buy agricultural land but if they inherited it, it is perfectly legal.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Dec 2020 02:41

KLNMurthy wrote:
chetak wrote:
a large percentage of the grain farmers anyway do not get the MSP advantage so they are forced to sell at the very same mandis but at prices well below the MSP, grains which the agents buy at distress sale prices and sell at MSP through their contacts in the APMC mandis and FCI offices

...
If that's so, then what use are the mandis in the first place?

how do you think that the rest of the maal gets/got sold.

the farmers could not sell outside the APMCs by law

there are many millions of tons of grains, rice, wheat that gets sold after the GOI's and the FCI's stockholding grain requirements are fulfilled.

they go to the private players like rice mill owners etc for eg. via agents. No one pays MSP after the FCI stops purchasing for the season/year.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Dec 2020 02:47

ManSingh wrote:MSP ( minus mandi fees ) is guaranteed for a crop covered by MSP mechanism. There are no variances in payouts or middlemen taking a cut here. There is no variation in prices either. It almost always increases every year.

Middlemen make money on advancing loans against future produce. Farmers need money to pay for inputs. When formal channels of banking are exhausted or a farmer does not qualify for a loan, the farmer asks middlemen/Arhtiyas. They charge an exorbitant interest rate for this. Also the arhtiyas have some influence on whose crop gets picked first but this is not a deal breaker.

Mandi fees sustains the infrastructure necessary for APMC mandi's ( where MSP priced crops are purchased). This infra is the responsibility of the state government who also collects the mandi fees for this purpose alone. With any drop in crops procured under APMC, the mandi fees collection will also drop. This also means the infra required for such procurement will/can not be maintained as present and may gradually wither away.

Hope it helps.

punjab has not spent this mandi fees money for the declared purpose for some years now.

they have diverted some of it elsewhere.