Bharat Rakshak

the serbian pilot had apparently made 25 prior landings there and the co-pilot around 40.

the tire burst could be major reason rather than a misjudgement...or maybe the tire burst due to a steeper landing...

RIP.CONDOLENCES TO THE FAMILIES...

The tire burst might have lead to the aircraft veering around and hitting that concrete locator building. The aircraft must have still been very fast.

It seems that the tire burst the moment the wheels touched down, and the aircraft careened out of control while still very fast. No chance for the engine thrust reversers to come into play even.

That airport is akin to landing on an aircraft carrier.

Other airport which is similar are:
1. Silchar
2. Dabolim airport (Surprise Surprise) - The west end of the runway ends in a STEEP cliff which drops several hundred feet into the sea. But the runway is very long here.

To think of all the people who would be looking forward to meeting their loved ones in eager anticipation. And then to meet such a horrible end.

Very heartbreaking. May god give the souls peace, strength to the families to bear the terrible loss.

I was watching Times Now and Arnab Goswami.Normally, I dont watch that channel and him very much,but today, it was a maestro performance by him.

The facts he brought out are absolutely shocking. 1) Right before the Mangalore airport's second runway (the one which) the ill fated plane used,there was massive opposition from a group led by a Mr Saldhana whom Arnab Goswami got on TV.

2) Mr Saldhana's group argued and took the case right upto the Supreme court that the proposed airport is unfit for airport operations ,precisely because it is surrounded by valleys on 3 sides,there is no margin for an aborted/ bad landing andthe airplane would fall off the cliff in such cirucmstances with disastrous consequences. These exact reasoning was there in his petition and that has EXACTLY what has happened.

3) The DGCA had argued otherwise and since they were the "experts" the courts gave more weightage to their opinion and went with them

4) In desperation, Saldhana's group went to Montreal (which has the ICAO headquarters) and pleaded with them to send their team becuase since it was going to be an international airport, and other country airplanes could fly in as well, they could intervene, but to no avail.

5) The reason why the current alignment was chosen was because this area was a dalit resettlement colony, while in the other direction,there was level ground, but which was owned and controlled by powerful vested rich and politically connected interests.
6) Since they could NOT acquire the level land in the other direction, they cleared out the dalits from the mountainous area and built the runway this way.
7) This entire thing was tailormade for a disaster that was waiting to happen and it inevitably did.

169 people are dead because of the criminal neglignece of the DGCA and the AAI in builing the runway in the current alignment

9) Most shocking . V Tuslidas , IAS officer of Tripura cadre who was made the CEO of Air India,the man probably most culpable in bringing Air India to it's nadir in losses (he made the current fleet acqusition deals) , is NOW BASED OUT OF LONDON AND RUNS A PLACEMENT COMPANY THAT SUPPLIES EXPAT PILOTS TO AIR INDIA. A nice fat body shopping company that supplies Air India that skims off a fat margin..(who wants to take bets that babus and mantris are on the take in this entire business).

10) Any investigation will be a sham, written off as "Pilot error". A DGCA investigation will be like sending a theif to investigate his OWN CRIME. A guaranteed whitewash.

Best thing to do now will be to CLOSE AIR PARASITE FOR GOOD. For too long it has sucked blood out of the people of this unlucky country and now these DGCA/AAI/Air India parasites are criminally culapable for the 160 odd dead .

If you want the truth beyond "Pilot Error" we need a credible neutral agency .

GET THE MANGALORE TRAGEDY INVESTIGATED BY THE FAA and NTSB and a reputed body from EUROPE.. A DGCA investigation is a guaranteed whitewash. They are not going to come out with a report which will say, sorry, we LIED to the Supreme court 10 years ago!.

I was watching Times Now and Arnab Goswami.Normally, I dont watch that channel and him very much,but today, it was a maestro performance by him.

The facts he brought out are absolutely shocking. 1) Right before the Mangalore airport's second runway (the one which) the ill fated plane used,there was massive opposition from a group led by a Mr Saldhana whom Arnab Goswami got on TV.

2) Mr Saldhana's group argued and took the case right upto the Supreme court that the proposed airport is unfit for airport operations ,precisely because it is surrounded by valleys on 3 sides,there is no margin for an aborted/ bad landing andthe airplane would fall off the cliff in such cirucmstances with disastrous consequences. These exact reasoning was there in his petition and that has EXACTLY what has happened.

3) The DGCA had argued otherwise and since they were the "experts" the courts gave more weightage to their opinion and went with them

4) In desperation, Saldhana's group went to Montreal (which has the ICAO headquarters) and pleaded with them to send their team becuase since it was going to be an international airport, and other country airplanes could fly in as well, they could intervene, but to no avail.

5) The reason why the current alignment was chosen was because this area was a dalit resettlement colony, while in the other direction,there was level ground, but which was owned and controlled by powerful vested rich and politically connected interests.
6) Since they could NOT acquire the level land in the other direction, they cleared out the dalits from the mountainous area and built the runway this way.
7) This entire thing was tailormade for a disaster that was waiting to happen and it inevitably did.

169 people are dead because of the criminal neglignece of the DGCA and the AAI in builing the runway in the current alignment

9) Most shocking . V Tuslidas , IAS officer of Tripura cadre who was made the CEO of Air India,the man probably most culpable in bringing Air India to it's nadir in losses (he made the current fleet acqusition deals) , is NOW BASED OUT OF LONDON AND RUNS A PLACEMENT COMPANY THAT SUPPLIES EXPAT PILOTS TO AIR INDIA. A nice fat body shopping company that supplies Air India that skims off a fat margin..(who wants to take bets that babus and mantris are on the take in this entire business).

10) Any investigation will be a sham, written off as "Pilot error". A DGCA investigation will be like sending a theif to investigate his OWN CRIME. A guaranteed whitewash.

Best thing to do now will be to CLOSE AIR PARASITE FOR GOOD. For too long it has sucked blood out of the people of this unlucky country and now these DGCA/AAI/Air India parasites are criminally culapable for the 160 odd dead .

If you want the truth beyond "Pilot Error" we need a credible neutral agency .

GET THE MANGALORE TRAGEDY INVESTIGATED BY THE FAA and NTSB and a reputed body from EUROPE.. A DGCA investigation is a guaranteed whitewash. They are not going to come out with a report which will say, sorry, we LIED to the Supreme court 10 years ago!.

chetak wrote:

Anant wrote:NDTV reports the pilot was an ex-pat Serb. Is there that much of an Indian pilot shortage?

Expat captains were involved in the deccan aircraft that did a hard landing at old Bangalore airport and broke off its nose wheel and caused serious damage to the aircraft as also the recent kingfisher aircraft that went off the runway at Bombay. Both air craft were ATRs and the second one was a complete write off.

Please NOTE: Just stating facts,not pointing fingers. There are some damn good expats out there flying in India

According to what I heard on the deccan landing incident, the captain allowed the Indian first officer to do the landing, and the first officer being relatively new botched it up. Read on some other forum. Take it FWIW

I had suspected that there will be a land scam involved!

Ditto in the New Bangalore airport project, where allegedly the Gowda Family owned huge land tracts and wanted the project shifted to their area, dunno if they succeded.

Now that this thing is in the media, the concerned minister will go into a meeting with the party high command, instructions will be passed to the effect that public anger has to be managed, and the minimum number of people be sacrificed that will assuage this anger.

Here will begin the circus that happens so often in India. Everyone will be running to New Delhi to curry favour with the party high command, spending money via their contacts so that they are 1) kept abreast of the investigations, and 2) are not made the sacrificial lamb.

There will be no foreign investigation into this other than the team from Boeing, which will analyze weather the aircraft was at fault and any improvements to the flight manual of that particular type of aircraft if any needs to be done.

The DGCA will constitute an independent investigation panel, which after a few months will name a few low-middle level officials and they will be the sacrificial lambs in this entire sordid affair

putnanja wrote: According to what I heard on the deccan landing incident, the captain allowed the Indian first officer to do the landing, and the first officer being relatively new botched it up. Read on some other forum. Take it FWIW

putnanja ji,

I know crew from both the deccan and the kingfisher aircraft.

The word "involved" was chosen as the most appropriate.

Maybe some time, over a virgin mary, we could focus a strong light on both incidents. For now we could just let the matter rest there.

manish wrote:

Singha wrote: I did not realize mangalore had such wayanadish terrain and forests.

Mangalore has no tract of flat land worth talking about - the region is almost entirely made up of rolling hills. That in itself necessitated the construction of the table top runway there. The planes inbound from Dubai typically turn in for the final approach over the Tannirbavi/Panambur beach area and head straight towards the Bajpe Airport - after about 1.5km past the beach,

A bit about the airport - it became operational in 1951 itself and was expanded with a second runway in 2006, one which is about 2.9km long and is made up of concrete, as opposed to the older runway of 1.9km length which is asphalted.

BTW there had been an incident of a plane overshooting the runway in Mangalore, sometime in the late 1980s IIRC. I remember reading somewhere a very long time ago that it was an Avro and that Veerappa Moily (the Union Justice Minister and ex-KA CM)
Added later: The newspapers have already published it! I had the timeline wrong. Here's the link.

This airport was created by Srinivas Mallya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ullal_Srinivas_Mallya

One of the reason for this airport which was not expanded was due to this table top region. There was proposal to create a larger Int airport near Karkala and that was let go in favor of expanding the current airport.

I remember that 1981 incident and there was several such close landing events. In teh 70s and 80s only avero used to land in the airport and older AI used to land. With the jet airways in the 90s I remember in 1993 and 1995 the landing was rough.

With this runway being termed as a pilots nightmare leaving no room for error, this was bound to happen at some point of time. In spite of all its inadequacies the airport recently underwent an expansion pro gramme to acquire an international airport status. sadly safety has been sacrificed for accessibility of the location. whats is heartening is how the administration continues to play with public safety and go Scot free

looks like the pilot came in and landed far ahead of the start of the runway but the decision to takeoff again was done rather late as there wasn't enough runway left and finally he made a desperate attempt to stop by braking hard probably less than 100 meters before hitting the arrestor bed, the tires burst in the process and the plane veered off course

did the pilot miss the runway length markings as it was raining? he could have braked hard the very first time

are these paints reflective when the planes landing lights shine on these markings?

whats is heartening is how the administration continues to play with public safety and go Scot free

I hope you meant "disheartening"...

Vina

Its not just the DGCA, even the airlines have made a lot of safety compromises in their rush towards profits. One thing you notice when you fly in India these days in 737s is that all the airlines have placed an extra row of seats where the middle emergency exit door is!

Earlier, this row used to be empty like in other countries, but now they have squeezed in an extra row, ensuring that if there is a mangalore like crash ending in a fireball, noone would have an easy approach to the emergency exits.

Stepping in an airplane in India these days is like stepping in 'Upahaar theater', if there is a fire, no way out!

I wonder how DGCA has allowed airlines to skirt such basic safety provisions.

Interesting interview:

'The plane broke into two pieces' - A survivor's story

(I have used air services flying into this airport and it is true that the "valleys" are disturbing. However, this plane seems to have split on landing!!!!)

It was a miraculous escape for eight passengers onboard the ill-fated Air India [ Images ] flight which crashed in Mangalore on Saturday morning as they managed to jump out of the aircraft soon after it hit the ground. While some of the survivors managed to jump out of the Boeing 737-800 and reach a nearby road, others jumped into a pit to evade the massive fire engulfing the aircraft. Some of them were helped by people, including auto-rickshaw drivers and bikers to reach hospital. "I can't believe I survived the crash," said Pradeep reliving the moments when the plane hit the ground after it overshot the runway. "There were vibrations before the plane crashed... as soon as it hit the ground, I managed to get out and jump into a pit. There was smoke all over as the plane caught fire. After ten minutes, there was an explosion," he said. According to most of the survivors, the fuselage of the aircraft had split into two. Abdul Puthur, another survivor, said he, along with two others, managed to get out of the mangled remains of the aircraft from an opening on the left side. "It all happened within a few seconds," he said. Another passenger Umar Farooq claimed the plane lost control while landing due to a tyre burst. "The plane overshot the runway only to stop inside a forest area...it burst into flames," he said.

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/may/ ... engers.htm

On India's request, US team rushes to Mangalore

At the request of the India [ Images ]n Government, the US on Saturday rushed a team of top investigators to India to assist authorities there to probe the Mangalore plane crash.

The US team of investigators includes officials from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), Federal Aviation Authority, General Electricals and Boeing, a NTSB spokesman told the PTI.

"We are offering our assistance to the Indian Government at their request," the spokesman said.

The NTSB is sending three of its officials including the one from the major accident division in aviation safety.

The NTSB spokesman said it received request for help last night and the team of investigators were quickly notified about it.

...
...

On India's request, US team rushes to Mangalore

At the request of the India [ Images ]n Government, the US on Saturday rushed a team of top investigators to India to assist authorities there to probe the Mangalore plane crash.

The US team of investigators includes officials from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), Federal Aviation Authority, General Electricals and Boeing, a NTSB spokesman told the PTI.

"We are offering our assistance to the Indian Government at their request," the spokesman said.

The NTSB is sending three of its officials including the one from the major accident division in aviation safety.

The NTSB spokesman said it received request for help last night and the team of investigators were quickly notified about it.

"They are now being rushed to Mangalore," the official said, adding that this is not for the first time that the US' help is sought.

India and the US have a long history in assisting in investigations into plane crashes in India, he said.

What is it with GoI and US being called in for all and sundry reasons these days?

Everything from searching for a missing CM (YSR) to a plane crash to a terrorist attack seems to involve a US team "rushing in"..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1uXAf1KFhg

That's true.....the a/c didnt land in the touchdown zone......it landed beyond and to compensate for that, the pilot, most likely, applied manual braking, as opposed to auto braking used in normal ops, and braked harder than normal, subsequently bursting the main gears and thus veering outta control. Its not wise enuff, on media's part, to blame the airport location, or for that matter even the runway length, coz this is the first of its kind in nearly 6 decades, since the airport's inception.

vina wrote:
9) Most shocking . V Tuslidas , IAS officer of Tripura cadre who was made the CEO of Air India,the man probably most culpable in bringing Air India to it's nadir in losses (he made the current fleet acqusition deals) , is NOW BASED OUT OF LONDON AND RUNS A PLACEMENT COMPANY THAT SUPPLIES EXPAT PILOTS TO AIR INDIA. A nice fat body shopping company that supplies Air India that skims off a fat margin..(who wants to take bets that babus and mantris are on the take in this entire business).

10) Any investigation will be a sham, written off as "Pilot error". A DGCA investigation will be like sending a theif to investigate his OWN CRIME. A guaranteed whitewash.

http://www.rediff.com/money/2006/oct/20spec.htmWhen Vasudevan Thulasidas, a 1972 IAS Tripura cadre officer, took over as the chairman and managing director of Air India [ Images ] in December, 2003, many eyebrows were raised. He was the first full-time CMD of Air India after a gap of nine years.

But this 58-year-old soft-spoken Keralite has now become a prominent face of the Indian aviation sector - a person even the babus of Rajiv Gandhi Bhawan call up. As a negotiator between the airlines and the government, Thulasidas has gained many admirers.

"He is a key figure today and has no biases," says Siddhanth Sharma of SpiceJet, "The airline industry, which otherwise is filled with big business houses and industrialists, is willing to listen to him and accept his suggestions."

According to an airline chief present, it was Thulasidas, who chaired the meeting, who reminded everyone that such divisions would not only doom the association, it could result in government regulation of fares. "The association would not have become a reality otherwise," says G R Gopinath of Air Deccan.

Thulasidas, who took the cockpit of Air India at a critical juncture, has also been trying to get Air India into shape. Despite posting a net profit of Rs 134 crore (Rs 1.34 billion) in 2002-03, the airline is reeling under cumulative operating losses of Rs 303.1 crore (Rs 3.03 billion), with nine-tenths of the routes bleeding.

Now, with a fleet expansion plan underway, Thulasidas is sure that the Maharaja will become a force to reckon with in the global skies. This was one reason why the prospect of Air India's merger with Indian (the domestic airline) attracts him.

It is he who has managed to veer a sceptical government - especially the Prime Minister - round to the idea that a merger can fly nicely on both wings. As a shareholder, the government could gain as much as Rs 300 crore (Rs 3 billion) on cost savings alone, before the rather more complex benefits begin to visibly gain altitude.

Thulasidas was chief secretary to Tripura before his new job. An ardent admirer of T S Eliot, his passion has always been English literature, in which he acquired a post-graduate degree.

After that, he taught briefly at a college in Kerala [ Images ] and even enrolled himself for a PhD at the University of Kerala. But he was selected for the IAS before he completed his doctoral thesis, and was allotted to the Manipur-Tripura cadre. Thulasidas would have preferred journalism, but the age limit for the IAS was nearing. he has been under secretary, ministry of civil aviation; director (air), ministry of defence; and joint secretary (air), ministry of defence - jobs not without their own share of drama.

I have no comments on his competence but...

According to rule-26 of AIS (DCRB) Rules, "a pensioner shall not accept any commercial employment before the expiry of one year from the date of his retirement, except with the previous sanction of the central government." Obviously, after one year they are free to join any job of their choice. So I don't see what wrong he has committed.

Someone has to do the acquisition. Is there any accusation on these deals or inquiry ordered? Whether Aircraft purchased are inferior or shunned by other airlines? All are Boeing and Airbus , two leading manufacturers in the world, where else one go for Commercial airliners, to HAL?

If he is using his expertise in this area , well he has a right to do it.He can not sell coconuts from Kerala or setup coir industry there, having no knowledge of these industries. It is for Air India to not to avail his services. If any wrongdoing is noticed than do prosecute him or anyone responsible.But don't jump to conclusion like Moralistic sounding Arnab.

AS for Pilot error, latest info coming is that approach speed was higher and in anxiety to go for soft landing Pilot flared up at touch down resulting in loss of another 1000 mts, so less runway available for stopping. But since speed was high it went past the runway, which was sufficient even for late TD, and tumbled into valley.

Anyway one needs to wait for the FDR/CVR and full Inquiry Report.

sum wrote:

whats is heartening is how the administration continues to play with public safety and go Scot free

I hope you meant "disheartening"...

yes. my sincere apologies

chaanakya wrote: AS for Pilot error, latest info coming is that approach speed was higher and in anxiety to go for soft landing Pilot flared up at touch down resulting in loss of another 1000 mts, so less runway available for stopping. But since speed was high it went past the runway, which was sufficient even for late TD, and tumbled into valley.

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/may/ ... -probe.htm

He told reporters that preliminary observation showed that there was no problem with the four-year-old runway or the aircraft but the plane had overshot by about 2000 feet, leading to the mishap.
This runway is 8,000 feet long as compared to the other one, which is 6,000 feet long. He said 158 people were killed in the crash but eight survived.

Just curious as to what is the standard operating units with the airlines in India and elsewhere. Are measurements still conducted in FPS systems or in metric system? The minister is quoting details (provided by DGCA??) in feet. Does DGCA use "FPS" as default standard? Thanks.

http://www.esgindia.org/campaigns/bajpe ... 20510.html

This was no accident, but the direct result of deliberate failure of officials at the highest level in the Director General of Civil Aviation, Airports Authority of India, Ministry of Civil Aviation and the Government of Karnataka for allowing this 2nd runway to be built in criminal negligence of applicable norms and standards.

A series of Public Interest Litigations were fought by the undersigned to stop the construction of this 2nd runway in Mangalore airport on grounds that the design simply did not conform to the most basic national and international standards of airport design. The PILs also highlighted that the airport does not conform with the most minimum safeguards for emergency situations – particularly during landings and takeoffs, and could not have emergency approach roads within a kilometre on all sides of the airport as required.

ABC News claims that the pilot landed half way down the runway!!!! A classic case of trying the landing again, but - as the claim goes - he tried to "salvage" the landing (and of course failed).

Sorry for the victims.

a google book on
A Human error approach for aviation accidents

I hope the near and dear get the strength to bear the loss.

http://online.wsj.com/video/indian-pass ... carousel_1

Check the crowd

Why was my earlier post on this topic deleted?. Is DGCA a "holy cow". Are AAI and Civil Aviation Ministries holy cows?.

Were the ESG group talking through the hat when they petitioned the supreme court against allowing the 2nd runway to be built?. Did the courts not order the DGCA and Civil Aviation ministry to comply all regulations and best practices to ensure safety?.

Were the ESG guys far fetched in saying that the margins are so little that a plane in an aborted/distressed landing/take off will fall 80/100 meters down the hill, which is exactly what happened?. Can an airport of this nature have resuce teams possibly reaching the crashed aircraft in seconds?. It looks like it certainly took a long time for the rescue teams to reach the site.

Why was the runway not built in the other orientation where there is level ground?.Was it because of political pressure in not acquiring the land of the rich and powerful and politically connected?.

A DGCA investingation is a guaranteed white wash. Why will the DGCA go back with a report saying that we were wrong and lied to the supreme court 10 years ago?. Get a neutral reputed 3rd party (FAA/ NTSB/ JAA) to investigate. The DGCA are criminally culpable in this. They should NOT be allowed to investigate this and declare themselves innocent by conducting a very narrow investigation on "Pilot error" and whitewash the entire incident.

All power to the ESG. Yes. Victims should file criminal cases against the Civil Aviation Ministry and DGCA and all of those who created contributary conditions for this crash. May god be with you . Let those corrupt and mal intentioned DGCA/ AAI/Civil Aviation minstry types go to prison.

Praful Patel IS Morally Responsible. His 6 year term on the watch is DIRECTLY responsible for this. Let us stop playing this "resignation drama". He MUST GO. Manmohan Sigh, replace him with someone competent to clean up the sorry mess.

sum wrote:On India's request, US team rushes to Mangalore
What is it with GoI and US being called in for all and sundry reasons these days?

Everything from searching for a missing CM (YSR) to a plane crash to a terrorist attack seems to involve a US team "rushing in"..

In this particular case, I support the US team rushing in. Not that the investigation cannot be handled here - but because there are already allegations of gol-mal and it is "better to get Soctland Yard involved before the evidence is hosed away and a sun roof lever blamed" - if you get what I mean

vina wrote:Why was my earlier post on this topic deleted?. Is DGCA a "holy cow". Are AAI and Civil Aviation Ministries holy cows?.

Were the ESG group talking through the hat when they petitioned the supreme court against allowing the 2nd runway to be built?. Did the courts not order the DGCA and Civil Aviation ministry to comply all regulations and best practices to ensure safety?.

Were the ESG guys far fetched in saying that the margins are so little that a plane in an aborted/distressed landing/take off will fall 80/100 meters down the hill, which is exactly what happened?. Can an airport of this nature have resuce teams possibly reaching the crashed aircraft in seconds?. It looks like it certainly took a long time for the rescue teams to reach the site.

Why was the runway not built in the other orientation where there is level ground?.Was it because of political pressure in not acquiring the land of the rich and powerful and politically connected?.

A DGCA investingation is a guaranteed white wash. Why will the DGCA go back with a report saying that we were wrong and lied to the supreme court 10 years ago?. Get a neutral reputed 3rd party (FAA/ NTSB/ JAA) to investigate. The DGCA are criminally culpable in this. They should NOT be allowed to investigate this and declare themselves innocent by conducting a very narrow investigation on "Pilot error" and whitewash the entire incident.

All power to the ESG. Yes. Victims should file criminal cases against the Civil Aviation Ministry and DGCA and all of those who created contributary conditions for this crash. May god be with you . Let those corrupt and mal intentioned DGCA/ AAI/Civil Aviation minstry types go to prison.

Praful Patel IS Morally Responsible. His 6 year term on the watch is DIRECTLY responsible for this. Let us stop playing this "resignation drama". He MUST GO. Manmohan Sigh, replace him with someone competent to clean up the sorry mess.

Yes saar, there are issues and there are vested interest groups every where. No cause to be alarmist though.

The DGCA will not whitewash anything. This is an open and shut case. Aircraft serviceable, weather fine, pilots ( both qualified and very experienced ) overshot critical runway, complications followed and ended up in a disaster. Written on forehead.

All our prayers are with the victims and their families. Tough luck, sorry but lets move on.

How's the runway to blame? It's a well known critical runway like many many others in the world. Should life stop because some stressed out pilot decided not to go around?

Lets not forget cranks like medha pathkar, susannah roy et al who also went up to the supreme court and international fora.

Mangalore needs an airport. The region is very important economically. Its a matter of risk and returns, risk and benefits to the populace. If some rich guys held on to their land, you and I have enabled such a system, no one else. Every faqer has made his money and there is still a very long line of people still anxiously waiting in queue.

Let the operations continue. By all means, build a new runway where ESG wants it. The Mangalore airport however is a done deal.

Shit happens and life goes on. It was just one man who probably made an error of judgment and pranged the aeroplane.Routine commercial flights have already restarted. If what you say is true, there would have been rioting on the streets of Mangalore.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

No call at all for involving JAA, CAA, communist party of china, chairman mao birthday celebration committee and what not. There are enough competent SDREs right here in India. ESG may have it's POV as will many others. How does it change the price of potatoes in the market?

The Boeing team would have come in anyway as would a team from FAA, even if not specifically invited.

How's the runway to blame? It's a well known critical runway like many many others in the world. Should life stop because some stressed out pilot decided not to go around?

There is no margin for error in the current set up. Sure, there are other tough places, like the notorious old Hong Kong airport runway,and many other places where if the plane overshoots you land in the drink and not to forget SFO where part of the runway extends into the bay and the planes approach over the bay..

But why introduce conditions that make it dangerous. Mistakes do and will happen. Why not avoid it and increase safety margins in the first place to acceptable levels?

Mangalore needs an airport. The region is very important economically. Its a matter of risk and returns, risk and benefits to the populace. If some rich guys held on to their land, you and I have enabled such a system, no one else. Every faqer has made his money and there is still a very long line of people still anxiously waiting in queue.

Yes. Faqers in the moolah queue is the problem. The runway should be exended by acquiring land to the north and east (at the point where the old and new runways intersect) and extend to the OLD runway by say another 5000 feet and use the 2nd "new" runway for ATRs or other smaller planes which require far less take off and land distances and margins. Maybe the approach should be from the railway track/ridge side , ie west to east ,rather than the other way around (dont know what the prevailing winds are like and if that is the best way to do it , are the prevailing winds there westerlies, I guess you would want land into the wind in normal circumstances )

In the mean time,there is the small matter of the 159 dead. Let the relatives of those go after the DGCA and AAI babu monkeys and the mantris who did the current alignment . Let them count the prison bars for a some 10 years for culpable homicide and "contemplate" on their actions. That is the fitting response to this.

Just look at the shape of the airport in Google Maps. It is obvious that with the 2nd runway jutting outlike a "pan hande" at an odd angle,it was obvious that the land acquistion was driven by political considerations and the babu monkeys signed off on what their politico masters ordered them to.

vina wrote:In the mean time,there is the small matter of the 159 dead. Let the relatives of those go after the DGCA and AAI babu monkeys and the mantris who did the current alignment . Let them count the prison bars for a some 10 years for culpable homicide and "contemplate" on their actions. That is the fitting response to this.

Do you really think it will happen even if the passengers' relatives fight? How many times someone from government was really arrested and imprisioned for negligence?

It is said that the pilot overshot by 2000 feet.

As per Google Prithvi the runway at Mangalooru is 8000 feet long. The aircraft had 6000 feet of runway ahead if that is correct.

One ref from the net says this about the Boeing 737-800
http://halldale.com/files/halldale/WATS ... aidzic.ppt

The FAA required landing distance (from Boeing references) is 5890 feet for dry and 6774 for wet-factored runway. These are zero-wind values! Using the FAA mandated 50% of headwind distance correction (Title 14 CFR 25) would result in shorter DLDR and WLDR. The LDA of 7,000 feet should be then quite satisfactory in both cases.

It is said that the pilot overshot by 2000 feet.

My guess on the entire thing is this. The plane overshot the touch down zone by a fair distance. The pilots when they realized this has two options, 1) To slam the throttles to full power and go around or 2) Hit max deceleration/thrust reverser /brakes/spoilers and stop..

Now the problem is with 2) which they seem to have attempted first is that you are liable to bust a couple of tyres, the plane starts veering off, your braking ability decreases further and then your "6000 /7000 ft" braking ability goes for a toss and if you get off the runway because the plane veers, you go off table top into the valleys. And with a burst tyre, taking off is even more difficult , because your speeds would have dropped below V1 /V2 by a fair bit and you probably dont have enough runway to get back to take off speed , and plus you probably need to get the plane on the undamaged tyre.. All very tough. and sh*t would have happened in less than 5 to 10 secs max.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq7fzemZCZU
Landing in mangalore

vina wrote:
There is no margin for error in the current set up. Sure, there are other tough places, like the notorious old Hong Kong airport runway,and many other places where if the plane overshoots you land in the drink and not to forget SFO where part of the runway extends into the bay and the planes approach over the bay..

But why introduce conditions that make it dangerous. Mistakes do and will happen. Why not avoid it and increase safety margins in the first place to acceptable levels?

Mangalore needs an airport. The region is very important economically. Its a matter of risk and returns, risk and benefits to the populace. If some rich guys held on to their land, you and I have enabled such a system, no one else. Every faqer has made his money and there is still a very long line of people still anxiously waiting in queue.

Yes. Faqers in the moolah queue is the problem. The runway should be exended by acquiring land to the north and east (at the point where the old and new runways intersect) and extend to the OLD runway by say another 5000 feet and use the 2nd "new" runway for ATRs or other smaller planes which require far less take off and land distances and margins. Maybe the approach should be from the railway track/ridge side , ie west to east ,rather than the other way around (dont know what the prevailing winds are like and if that is the best way to do it , are the prevailing winds there westerlies, I guess you would want land into the wind in normal circumstances )

In the mean time,there is the small matter of the 159 dead. Let the relatives of those go after the DGCA and AAI babu monkeys and the mantris who did the current alignment . Let them count the prison bars for a some 10 years for culpable homicide and "contemplate" on their actions. That is the fitting response to this.

Just look at the shape of the airport in Google Maps. It is obvious that with the 2nd runway jutting outlike a "pan hande" at an odd angle,it was obvious that the land acquistion was driven by political considerations and the babu monkeys signed off on what their politico masters ordered them to.

Vina saar,

I understand and appreciate your concerns. I can see where you're coming from.

Over run is a relative term as seen from the flight deck of a 150 tonne monster careening out of control, screaming down the runway at 150 kts in a final cloud of dust. There are no unbelievers in such a cockpit.

So is the case of many other "safe" airports which have never been tested as Mangalore was.

Even Bombay airport is dangerous by many definitions. It is surrounded by dense human population on almost all sides.

Its close proximity to Juhu airport has confused many a pilot. One japanese airline kamikaze warrior even landed his commercial 707 flight in Juhu.

Many pilots routinely call and establish on finals from 30,000 ft and 300 nautical miles out.

Alignment of runways is normally done on historical wind data from many decades. Unless there is a compelling reason to change the alignment, this is how most runways get aligned.

6000ft is good enough for either action, know of a instance where a British airways Boeing 747 on full throttle aborted the takeoff at the last moment and I don't think it needed 6000ft to stop

on the engineering side aviation fuel should be made non-flammable by mixing with an agent and stays in that state between transportation and aircraft fueling, only when it is about to be fed into the engine should it be separated from the agent

similar to the way oxygen is being filtered out of air in real time as with the recent ISRO's prototype of scramjet

Even Bombay airport is dangerous by many definitions. It is surrounded by dense human population on almost all sides.

Its close proximity to Juhu airport has confused many a pilot. One japanese airline kamikaze warrior even landed his commercial 707 flight in Juhu.

That somehow seems to be a common occurance in India. I remember long ago a case of a middle eastern 747 landing in Air Force Station Tambaram instead of Meenambakkam, and on the inaugral Jet Airways flight to Coimbatore, the worthy landed at the Sulur airbase instead of the airport..

vina with your background in aero and graduate degree in Business Admin can you follow up the investigation as it proceeds?

Thanks, ramana

BTW read up on the google book I linked above. Its easy to say pilot error but at same time one has to look inot an rule out other factors.

Dr RI Cook of ctlab.org has studied system accidents and has some papers at the site.

http://www.andhraheadlines.com/BrowseAr ... rtID=65452

New Delhi, May 22: Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel Saturday met Prime Minister Minister Manmohan Singh and owned up moral responsibility for the Air India Express Boeing 737 crash in Mangalore in which at least 159 people were killed.

"I expressed my anguish. I told him about my personal and moral responsibility as head of the civil aviation family," Patel told reporters after meeting the prime minister at his 7, Race Course Road residence.

Though he did not give a direct answer to queries about his having made an offer to resign, Patel said he had "a great sense of personal anguish and felt morally responsible that such a tragic incident had taken place".

Patel, who went to Mangalore Saturday morning to oversee the rescue operations, said the prime minister expressed his shock, pain and anguish at the incident and told him "not to be overcome by the situation but to face it".

He said the prime minister conveyed that any mistakes should be corrected and that certain things were beyond control.

Manmohan Singh had spoken to Patel, who was in Mumbai, early Saturday morning after which the minister rushed to Mangalore.

"It was my duty to brief the prime minister about the tragic incident," Patel said.

Patel said the situation of the plane before its landing and that of the Mangalore airport appeared to be normal by all accounts.

"On a normal day, it should have been a normal landing."

He said the 8,000 feet runway was fully suited for Boeing 737 aircraft. "The runway has an instrument landing system. It has a navigation system. The visibility was approximately six kilometres, winds were calm, there was no rain and the runaway was dry."

He said in these circumstances there would have been a normal landing but "unfortunately, as it appears, the plane landed beyond the normal threshold and overshot the runway".

"This was a completely certified runway."

He said Mangalore has a "table top" runway but the plane did not stop at the 90 metre sandfilled runover area and plunged into the valley.

The pilot had flying experience of about 10,200 hours of which 2,700 hours had been spent as a commander of a Boeing 737 aircraft, Patel informed. He said the co-pilot had done more than 3,500 hours of flying and added that the two pilots had knowledge of the airport and its topography.

"The reason of the crash will be known when the high level inquiry ordered by DGCA (Director General Civil Aviation) is completed," he said, adding that Air India was also doing its own inquiry and will assist the DGCA in its work. He said the DGCA would take assistance of outside experts if required.

Patel, who spoke to some survivors, said the plane appeared to have caught fire gradually and there was no explosion.


Conveying his sympathies with the bereaved families, he said as per the Montreal Convention the families of those killed will get upto $160,000 in compensation.

Patel said that the black-box of the plane is likely to be found from the wreckage.

Answering queries, he said that steps had been taken to resume flights from Mangalore.

If any steps were needed to improve the airport, those will be taken, he added.

So its a clear case of a system accident. The pilot if he landed/touchdown at wrong location had no margin to complete the landing safely and to compound the problem there is the valley of death to plunge into.

BTW, very good summation of facts by the Minister. He has touched on most of the aspects: aircraft, pilot training and familiarity, weather, runway capability and fire.