Small Arms Thread

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 27 Apr 2010 02:23

^^The ones sold to Nepal are painted black.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Apr 2010 08:28

nachiket wrote:^^The ones sold to Nepal are painted black.

Yeah I know. Also I've seen a few black models in Indian service as well, but the vast majority of them have a brown finish. I can understand aesthetics being a concern secondary to performance/reliability, but AFAIK black paint costs the same as brown paint.

koti · Post by **koti** » 27 Apr 2010 09:51

The only possible explanation for brown furniture is "Can you imagine holding an all black rifle in the deserts of rajastan?".

Now, Since the entire Oman army will be using in desert type situations, the above statement becomes interesting.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 27 Apr 2010 10:50

Folks, we don't know if the Omani guys want their rifles painted brown, black, green, desert camo or whatever, so there is no use speculating at this point.

Remember the Golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. The INSAS rifles will be painted whatever color scheme the Omani military want, as long as they pay for them.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 27 Apr 2010 17:22

The Excalibur version of INSAS was all-black. It was supposed to be used by Special Forces, though, I have not heard any further news on that version. Any updates on that?
And orange doesn't look THAT bad to me, though I wonder how they camouflage such a bright colour in jungle settings.

PS: The Royal Army of Oman's current service rifle is Steyr AUG. With many nations shifting from standard rifles to bullpup rifles, Oman has done it the other way round. The only other nation to have done so is Malaysia, I think, who replaced Steyr with M4 carbine.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 27 Apr 2010 18:13

Hopefully this Phoren order silences those who were asking for the insas to be replaced and encourages the establishment to work on upgrades.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 27 Apr 2010 18:59

Bharadwaj wrote:Hopefully this Phoren order silences those who were asking for the insas to be replaced and encourages the establishment to work on upgrades.

How sad, that it requires a phoren order to silence critics! If SDRE experts heaped praises on it, it isn't sufficient. We need outsiders to order it and praise it!

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 27 Apr 2010 21:32

atreya wrote:
How sad, that it requires a phoren order to silence critics! If SDRE experts heaped praises on it, it isn't sufficient. We need outsiders to order it and praise it!

Sad but given previous procurement tendencies maybe even this will not have an effect

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Apr 2010 01:10

atreya wrote:The Excalibur version of INSAS was all-black. It was supposed to be used by Special Forces, though, I have not heard any further news on that version. Any updates on that?

They rejected it for being too loud and having a large muzzle flash. It was a beautiful looking weapon though. I've been looking for pics but have only seen a few poor quality ones.

And orange doesn't look THAT bad to me, though I wonder how they camouflage such a bright colour in jungle settings.

Yeah but black would have costed the same. They probably wrap in camouflage(refer Aero India 09 Garud pics).

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 28 Apr 2010 13:49

Viv S wrote:
atreya wrote:The Excalibur version of INSAS was all-black. It was supposed to be used by Special Forces, though, I have not heard any further news on that version. Any updates on that?
They rejected it for being too loud and having a large muzzle flash.

Can you please post a source for this info or did you learn about it through a paanwaala?

Viv S wrote:I've been looking for pics but have only seen a few poor quality ones.

True. There are not any good quality pics. However, this is the best that I have come across. Hope this helps.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 29 Apr 2010 01:36

Gaur wrote:
Viv S wrote: They rejected it for being too loud and having a large muzzle flash.
Can you please post a source for this info or did you learn about it through a paanwaala?

Kind of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INSAS_rifl ... velopments

There's no source for it so it could well be hot air.

True. There are not any good quality pics. However, this is the best that I have come across. Hope this helps.

Lovely pic. Best one I've seen so far. Thank you very much.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 29 Apr 2010 02:25

Here are some more...I hope you'll like them...

Excaliber & Kalantak

Thanks

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 29 Apr 2010 08:49

Gaur wrote: Can you please post a source for this info or did you learn about it through a paanwaala?

This has been common knowledge for quite a while. No need for Chaiwala News Network, the joint director of ARDE himself made this statement about the carbine version of INSAS sometime ago:
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... my/504904/

But it was the INSAS carbine that fell through, right from the start. "For the carbine, the ammunition was very powerful. It had higher sound, flash, and recoil effect," said S V Gade, joint director, INSAS, ARDE. "With the MSMC, we have now changed the length of the ammunition. It is still a 5.6 mm calibre bullet, but it is slightly shorter in length, thereby eliminating the drawbacks of the earlier carbine."

Finally, the INSAS carbine plan was shelved and in 2002, the Army devised a new set of General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR) for the new MSMC, he said.

One of the changes they made is that the MSMC fires a smaller 5.56x30 mm round instead of the 5.56x45 round that the rest of the INSAS family uses.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 29 Apr 2010 10:46

^^
The above link you posted states the problems of MINSAS (INSAS CARBINE). I had indeed read this report. But Excalibur is not a carbine but a assault rifle and AFAIK there is no news report concerning the problems it had. This is the reason I had asked Viv S. However, since Excalibur had shorter barrel length (as compared to INSAS), the problems may be the same as that of MINSAS.
On an another note, has anyone come across any news regarding the new multi caliber assault rifle that we were making? Aside from a very poorly shot news report which shows its mockup, I have not come across any other news regarding that.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 02 May 2010 19:40

Hotshot sniper in one-and-a-half mile double kill

A BRITISH Army sniper has set a new sharpshooting distance record by killing two Taliban machinegunners in Afghanistan from more than 1 miles away.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 06 May 2010 03:15

New gunsight claims better targeting performance:

http://www.physorg.com/news192299313.html

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 08 May 2010 16:33

Sniper takes out 5 Taliban in 28 seconds

vivekmehta · Post by **vivekmehta** » 08 May 2010 21:16

http://www.indian-military.org/news-arc ... hlist.html

any news on HGM RFI.

i have some questions regarding use of HMG in India context hope Guru's can help

what is the current penetration of HMG's in Infantry ?

are HHG's used as Company level weapon or are attached to a battalion

is current requirement is any sector specific (like defensive positions on NE border)

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 08 May 2010 21:46

what is the current penetration of HMG's in Infantry ?

Currently, IA uses the NSV heavy machine gun. The RFI has been sent for M2E50 and the Kord. The Kord replaced the NSV in the Russian Army, while the M2E50 is an upgrade of the M2 Browning machine gun.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 May 2010 22:13

atreya wrote:
what is the current penetration of HMG's in Infantry ?
Currently, IA uses the NSV heavy machine gun. The RFI has been sent for M2E50 and the Kord. The Kord replaced the NSV in the Russian Army, while the M2E50 is an upgrade of the M2 Browning machine gun.

NSV is used in mounted role only on T-72. The Browning M2 12.7mm HMG is the one used by the IA - iirc, on the defences along the LOC.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 26 May 2010 04:11

Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011

State tests of the new model of Kalashnikov automatic rifles will be held in Russia next year, Izhmash Director General Vladimir Grodetsky said on Tuesday.

The new model of the legendary assault rifle, the AK-200, is based on the AK-74M and differs in weight (3.8 kilograms/8.4 lbs vs. 3.3 kilograms/7.3 lbs) and the magazine capacity (30, 50, 60 rounds vs. 30).

The AK-74, a developed version of the Kalashnikov rifle's first model, the AK-47, was introduced in 1974 and used by the Soviet forces during the Afghanistan conflict.

The AK-47 was originally created by Mikhail Kalashnikov, who as a WWII soldier was inspired to design the weapon after being wounded in 1941. While his first attempts were unsuccessful, he was given a position in weapons development, and by 1947 he had perfected his masterpiece.

Since then, the AK-47 has become the most widespread and famous assault rifle. Used by some 50 armies around the world, as well as countless urban guerrilla movements, it is also featured on the flag of Mozambique.

Kalashnikov received Russia's highest honorary title on his 90th birthday last November. Accepting the award, Kalashnikov voiced regret that his creation, the world's most widely used rifle, has been often misused.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev described the AK-47 at the ceremony as "an excellent model of Russian weaponry" and "a national brand that makes each citizen proud."

wig · Post by **wig** » 26 May 2010 09:36

apologies if posted earlier. found this snippet of topical interest
Gearing up its soldiers for future warfare, the Indian Army feels there is an urgent need to replace the indigenously developed and manufactured the INSAS series of rifles.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100526/nation.htm

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 May 2010 11:30

just as people moved from mainframes to minis to PCs to iphones back to mainframe model (data centers and thin clients), so will the faithful return to
- conventional style rifles (not bullpups)
- 7.62mm

over hundreds of years the shape and form of the conventional rifle has been refined to suit humans best for balance, accuracy etc.

the old advantage touted of "wounding" a guy with 5.56mm to force logistical and medical burden on a conventional army isnt cutting
the mustard now
= the guy himself is likely a suicidal type and will close and kill unless he is put down
= he may have a explosive vest or grenade, leaving him wounded just leaves behind a landmine who will target the next unit coming along unaware
= his buddies will seldom care to drag him to safety and expose themselves, they are more into killing infidels
= the 5.56mm probably falls off at shorter range than 7.62mm
= 5.56m is lighter and packs more rounds into a single mag but fighting these days is sporadic so a huge quantity of ammo may not be essential
for most, esp those in vehicles

that being said, 5.56mm is probably still better for a conventional war. but with same RR/IA units deployed in both roles, we cannot provide
two rifles and training for each man. we need to choose.

perhaps a heavier and deadlier 5.56 "long rod" round and redesigned mag and chamber could be it? heavier slug, higher power/number of powder and a longer barrel?

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 26 May 2010 12:38

First, the idea of 5.56x45mm wounding rather than killing the enemy was a side-effect, not the main purpose of the round. The main reason they picked 5.56x45 mm was that the old 7.62x51mm NATO round was just too darned powerful.

Like you said, first priority is to get rounds on target. With the heavy recoil of a NATO 7.62, it was hard to get people to hit the target reliably and with full-auto, it was very hard to control.

Another big issue was that the soldiers couldn't carry enough bullets to lay down a field of covering fire. Meanwhile, Vietcong was carrying 7.62x39mm rounds for AK, which they could carry more of. US army did multiple studies and found that an 8 man troop carrying 5.56 NATO could outgun a 11 man troop carrying 7.62 mm NATO, which is why the small-is-beautiful philosophy won out and 5.56mm round was adopted. However, designated marksmen and snipers still use 7.62mm NATO round.

By the way sir, 5.56 is just the diameter of the bullet. There are several variations of 5.56 mm ammo, some longer and heavier than others. The trouble is that if you change the length (or the weight), the round may not be able to be fired accurately out of existing barrels, without changing the rifling, not to mention, people need to redesign the chamber and bolt carrier to accomodate the new cartridge.

Another solution that some people are pushing are the 6.5 mm Grendel and 6.8 mm Remington SPC, as a balance between 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO

vic · Post by **vic** » 26 May 2010 21:50

MoD report 2009-10 refers to

Close Quarter Battle (CQB) Ammunition:User trials Phase-I was completed
successfully in June 2009 at IFS Mhow.Lethality Assessment Plan (Phase-II) approved
by User.

I think DRDO may be working on new ammo for INSAS "carbine/rifle?"

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 May 2010 16:55

Any one have any idea on what rifle is the army is interested in?
Some time back I remember reading SAR ang SSG are likely possibilities.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 01 Jun 2010 08:39

Indian Army Wants Amphibious Assault Rifles
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/05/in ... sault.html

The Indian Army (according to a just released RFI) is looking to procure assault rifles of 7.62 x 51mm caliber capable of being carried under water in marine and water bodies along with their accessories and attachments and brought to operational use immediately after coming out of the water. The weapon should have military standard picatinny rails along with reflex/holographic sights, night/TI sights, IR lasers and tactical lights.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 01 Jun 2010 09:59

sathyaC wrote:Indian Army Wants Amphibious Assault Rifles
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/05/in ... sault.html
The Indian Army (according to a just released RFI) is looking to procure assault rifles of 7.62 x 51mm caliber capable of being carried under water in marine and water bodies along with their accessories and attachments and brought to operational use immediately after coming out of the water. The weapon should have military standard picatinny rails along with reflex/holographic sights, night/TI sights, IR lasers and tactical lights.

I think there is only one rifle which is equally good inside and outside water, ASM-DT amphibious rifle. Rest of the designs are not good enough outside water, due to low accuracy and range.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jun 2010 10:03

A close look at AK-200 prototype , The AK's will never made it in SF because of the lack of a Piccatiny rail now AK-200 over overcomes that weakness.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 01 Jun 2010 18:54

sathyaC wrote:Indian Army Wants Amphibious Assault Rifles
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/05/in ... sault.html
The Indian Army (according to a just released RFI) is looking to procure assault rifles of 7.62 x 51mm caliber capable of being carried under water

According to my knowing such assault rifle does not exist in this caliber. How many modern assault rifles in 7.62x51 mm you know over all?

vic · Post by **vic** » 01 Jun 2010 23:04

While everybody is going for developing fancy cutting edge technology but it seems that Army is not interested in mandating DRDO to develop small arms requirements of India for almost 3 million miliaty and para military forces. Just see:-

Pistol – no new development attempted even as FN35 if getting long in tooth. Generally glocks or Sigs are imported. Why not reverse engineer?

9mm SMG - no new development attempted even as Sterling (incorrectly called Sten gun) is obsolete. Generally MP5s are imported. Why not use MSMC as basis to make a 9mm SMG also?

5.56mm carbine – no new development attempted after failure of INSAS carbine which may be due to unsuitable ammo. No new attempt, so Army has issued request for imports!

5.56mm rifle – no new development attempted after INSAS. No new attempt, so Army has issued request for imports!

5.56mm LMG – no new development attempted after INSAS. No new attempt, so Army has issued request for imports calling it IAR!

7.62mm rifle – no new development attempted after Isapore. No new attempt, so Army has issued request for imports calling it amphibious rifle?

7.62 light GPMG - No attempt for development say by modifying GMAG, so Army has issued request for imports!

HMG - No attempt for development say by modifying Kord, so Army has issued request for imports!

Sniper rifles - No new attempt, so Army has issued request for imports!

Anti material rifles - No new attempt after indigenous attempt was called heavy, so Army has issued request for imports!

RPG- No attempt, so Army has issued request for imports!

AGL- No new attempt, so Army has issued request for imports!

Note each of the above small arms would require around Rs. 10 crore to Rs. crore budget to develop or reverse engineer well within the powers of Army Chief to sanction. Note INSAS needed only Rs. 4 crore to develop. Time line to reverse engineer should be around One year.

155mm guns – story is focklore

120mm mortar- indigenous attempt rejected

New generation holographic sights, night sights, thermal sights are imported or assembled with indigenous stickers.

Extract of Glock story from wiki. Note Glock had never manufactered any small arms let alone pistols

Glock became aware of the Army's planned procurement and in 1982 assembled a team of Europe's leading handgun experts from military, police and civilian sport shooting circles to define the most desirable characteristics in a combat pistol.[4] Within just three months, Glock developed a working prototype.[6] The new weapon made extensive use of synthetic materials and modern manufacturing technologies in its design, making it a very cost-effective candidate. Several samples of the 9x19mm Glock 17 (so named because it was the 17th patent of the company) were submitted for assessment trials in early 1982, and after passing all of the exhaustive endurance and abuse tests, Glock emerged as the winner with the Model 17

vic · Post by **vic** » 01 Jun 2010 23:15

sathyaC wrote:Indian Army Wants Amphibious Assault Rifles
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/05/in ... sault.html
The Indian Army (according to a just released RFI) is looking to procure assault rifles of 7.62 x 51mm caliber capable of being carried under water

Igorr wrote:According to my knowing such assault rifle does not exist in this caliber. How many modern assault rifles in 7.62x51 mm you know over all?

This is an RFI for normal rifle disguised to look like something special. The pic is incorrect, it represents altogether different kind of weapon

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 02 Jun 2010 00:05

This is an RFI for normal rifle disguised to look like something special. The pic is incorrect, it represents altogether different kind of weapon[/quote]I wonder how it can be a 'normal 7.62 x 51 mm assault rifle' while IA is standardized on 5.56 mm in mass?

vic · Post by **vic** » 02 Jun 2010 01:14

Picture seems to be of Russian APS under water assault rifle or some such thing. While the news report/RFI specifications seem to be for a DMR - sniper rifle

for example

The HK417 is designed to function normally after being submerged due to the construction of the gas system that minimises entry of particles into the weapon. It can even be fired from within water safely, according to H&K. This feature is essential to combat at coastlines, lakes and rivers where troops are vulnerable to ambush. The HK417 gives its user the assurance of greater survivability because it is always ready to fire.

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Jun 2010 10:48

5.56mm carbine – no new development attempted after failure of INSAS carbine which may be due to unsuitable ammo. No new attempt, so Army has issued request for imports

Minsas has been devoloped. And rumor has it that it is even tested by the army.

5.56mm rifle – no new development attempted after INSAS. No new attempt, so Army has issued request for imports!

Insas Excallibur has been devoloped. Maybe it didn't match armys expectations.

7.62mm rifle – no new development attempted after Isapore. No new attempt, so Army has issued request for imports calling it amphibious rifle?

A rifle called A7 that is like a copy of AKM was devoloped. Army didn't like it. Few paramilitary bodies have adopted the rifle(IIRC).

RPG- No attempt, so Army has issued request for imports!

Actually a new RCL gun has been devoloped. There was a discussion on the high amount of carboncomposites used in it. It was a 84mm one i guess.

New generation holographic sights, night sights, thermal sights are imported or assembled with indigenous stickers.

DRDO actually produces both Night and Thermal sights. I have no idea about holographic sites though.

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Jun 2010 10:53

Igorr wrote:This is an RFI for normal rifle disguised to look like something special. The pic is incorrect, it represents altogether different kind of weapon

I wonder how it can be a 'normal 7.62 x 51 mm assault rifle' while IA is standardized on 5.56 mm in mass?[/quote]

I guess 7.62 callibur is better suited for water bourne assualts due to its capillary effects when compared to 5.56 ones.
If this is the case, then the RFI seems pretty rational.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 02 Jun 2010 12:01

WTF are you guys talking about. Read the RFI and you'll see the requirement was for a weapon that could be carried under water and be ready to fire quickly when the operator comes out of the water's surface. The requirement was NOT for a rifle that can fire underwater.

There are a lot of assault rifles in the world that can do this. All you have to do is drain the water from the barrel and chamber first. The M-16 manual even talks about the procedure on how to do this. However it takes a bit longer to empty the water out manually in the M-16's case (you have to aim the barrel down and partially open the chamber and allow to drain for a few seconds first. People used to do this in Vietnam all the time), so IA must be looking for something that does it faster and automatically.

IIRC, the HK G36C is one that was designed for this. It has drain holes in the barrel and mag, to allow faster firing when coming out of water. As you can see by the demo here:

HK416 can do this too, as can Magpul ACR, Robinson Armament XCR and a bunch of other manufacturers as well. I saw a military channel show about CQB weapons recently where quite a few of the rifles were designed to do this. Simply google for "Over the beach test" for a bunch of weapons with this capability.

By the way 7.62x51 is the standard NATO 7.62 round. It was used in India until quite recently and India probably has a large supply of it still (Remember, it is the same round that was used in FN-FAL/Ishapore 1A SLR). M14 is another rifle that uses 7.62x51 and is used to this day by US marines (designated marksmen and snipers only), as are the rifles issued to UK designated marksmen, H&K PSG-1 which India's NSG uses etc. From the looks of things, IA is also looking for something intended to be used by certain personnel only, not all the soldiers.

Koti: What are you talking about? Capillary action of what??

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 02 Jun 2010 12:11

koti wrote:
Igorr wrote:This is an RFI for normal rifle disguised to look like something special. The pic is incorrect, it represents altogether different kind of weapon
I wonder how it can be a 'normal 7.62 x 51 mm assault rifle' while IA is standardized on 5.56 mm in mass?

I guess 7.62 callibur is better suited for water bourne assualts due to its capillary effects when compared to 5.56 ones.
If this is the case, then the RFI seems pretty rational.[/quote]I agree about 7.62 and capillarity, but 7.62x51 is too powerful for an assault rifle, the modern guns in this caliber are in no way assault rifles but used for marksman purposes, like HK417 BTW. The accurateness of 7.62x51 on auto is terrible because recoil. So now it's the main stream opinion in the World: 7.62x51 is not a preferable choice for an assault rifle.

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Jun 2010 12:49

ArmenT wrote:WTF are you guys talking about. Read the RFI and you'll see the requirement was for a weapon that could be carried under water and be ready to fire quickly when the operator comes out of the water's surface. The requirement was NOT for a rifle that can fire underwater.

There are a lot of assault rifles in the world that can do this. All you have to do is drain the water from the barrel and chamber first. The M-16 manual even talks about the procedure on how to do this. However it takes a bit longer to empty the water out manually in the M-16's case (you have to aim the barrel down and partially open the chamber and allow to drain for a few seconds first. People used to do this in Vietnam all the time), so IA must be looking for something that does it faster and automatically.

IIRC, the HK G36C is one that was designed for this. It has drain holes in the barrel and mag, to allow faster firing when coming out of water. As you can see by the demo here:

HK416 can do this too, as can Magpul ACR, Robinson Armament XCR and a bunch of other manufacturers as well. I saw a military channel show about CQB weapons recently where quite a few of the rifles were designed to do this. Simply google for "Over the beach test" for a bunch of weapons with this capability.

By the way 7.62x51 is the standard NATO 7.62 round. It was used in India until quite recently and India probably has a large supply of it still (Remember, it is the same round that was used in FN-FAL/Ishapore 1A SLR). M14 is another rifle that uses 7.62x51 and is used to this day by US marines (designated marksmen and snipers only), as are the rifles issued to UK designated marksmen, H&K PSG-1 which India's NSG uses etc. From the looks of things, IA is also looking for something intended to be used by certain personnel only, not all the soldiers.

That is what I was referring to.

Koti: What are you talking about? Capillary action of what??

Though a soldier tries to remove the water from the barrel, there is always a chance that some amount of water maybe leftback in the barrel. In this case there can be some serious damage done to the rifle barrel and the soldier who fires it.
It is harder to remove water from smaller capillaries when compared to larger capillaries due to the surface tension of water(Please draw anology with rifle calibers).
So, it would be logical to reason that 7.62 might serve the cause better then 5.56. However I'm not aware how profound this effect will be when comparing the two calibers.
And the requirement for 7.62x51 instead of 7.62x39 is something to note. This clearely states that the rifle is only for specialist roles.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 02 Jun 2010 12:57

koti wrote: And the requirement for 7.62x51 instead of 7.62x39 is something to note. This clearely states that the rifle is only for specialist roles.

Cannot agree with you more: I think too, it can be only something for very special purposes, since 7.62x39 weapons work excellent after water, and broadly used in marine spec-ops around the World, including Indian MARCOS and Israeli 'Sayeret Mankal'. May be they really need some number for the marksman support during such operations.