Indian Space Program Discussion

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 10 Jun 2010 20:07

India, Russia plan joint development of GPS devices

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 11 Jun 2010 07:24

BrahMos Chief Calls for Joint Indo-German Space Cooperation

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 11 Jun 2010 11:08

Guys Matthew Hoey might be working for Chinese intelligence.His posts ignore Chinese proliferation altogether.It seems he is the founder of Military Space Transparency Project.

http://www.spacetransparency.org/Space_ ... /Home.html

If you browse through his essays you will notice that he has a special preference for India.Going through his article I feel he is also a liberal/leftist.In my opinion he is either working for chinese intelligence(in exchange for money.Thinktanks do need money) or he is a Useful Idiot.

We have to be alert about his intentions.

By the way does India have any space warfare program?We do have a civilian space program.Now it might be the time to start one.If someone innocent is framed for a murder then he better commit it as well.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 11 Jun 2010 14:24

darshhan wrote:Guys Matthew Hoey might be working for Chinese intelligence.His posts ignore Chinese proliferation altogether.It seems he is the founder of Military Space Transparency Project.

http://www.spacetransparency.org/Space_ ... /Home.html

If you browse through his essays you will notice that he has a special preference for India.Going through his article I feel he is also a liberal/leftist.In my opinion he is either working for chinese intelligence(in exchange for money.Thinktanks do need money) or he is a Useful Idiot.

We have to be alert about his intentions.

By the way does India have any space warfare program?We do have a civilian space program.Now it might be the time to start one.If someone innocent is framed for a murder then he better commit it as well.

That's a bit of a conspiracy there aye mate? We don't want to be going down the Paki path.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 11 Jun 2010 15:37

I didn't say he is working for chinese intel.If you read my post I have written he might be working for chinese intel or he is a useful idiot.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 11 Jun 2010 15:40

Also I am not floating any conspiracy theories.You can say I am paranoid.But then only the paranoid survive.This is even more true in case of India which has the worst security situation in the world with the possible exception of Israel.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 13 Jun 2010 02:38

Good article:

(AviationWeek) India Is A Spacefaring Nation

(note: there is a snazzy video embedded in the article. There also seems to be a 4th page to the article, which you get to by clicking 'next' while on the 3rd page)

regarding Chandrayaan-2 rover instruments:

The 15-kg. (33-lb.), 10-watt, solar-powered rover will include a laser ablation tool for spectral analysis of rocks and soil, and video cameras for navigation.

Pew-pew-pewww! A lasergun to zap rocks and analyze the composition of the resulting vapour. This sounds similar to the ChemCam that will be used on NASA's upcoming Mars Science Laboratory rover:

Standoff ranged weaponry reaches the Moon! Muauahahaa!

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 15 Jun 2010 05:20

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 15 Jun 2010 14:52

^^^^
Watch the last part of the interview. 400-million-people-below-the-poverty-line fever has caught Indian journos as well ! I bet my f***skin this guy does not know what the poverty line is per the GoI.
Shri.Radhakrishnan handled this question extremely well and he has done his homework.
The journo though, the phat lazy f*** that he is, would have done no research, turned up for the intreview, must have had free food and left! And Vishnu Som defended this guy earlier in this thread! The most senior defence journo in India has this to ask. Not the technical details, not the challenges, not the obstacles to climb, the facilities to build but this.

What value did the journo add?
What additional details did he bring out?
What extra information did the tax-paying public of India learn through the interview?
What did the journo himself learn?
Absolute zilch !

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 Jun 2010 01:38

The interviewer was disgusting. As you say, he added zilch value - he might have as well written down the questions on a piece of paper. That way, we would have been spared the agony of watching his face & his pathetic attempt at condescension.

The only good part was that it was an easy lay-up: it enabled Radhakrishnan to nail him on the 400 million crap. Maybe Radhakrishnan should have shot back: "How much does NDTV pay you? With 400 Million below poverty line, how can you justify such a fat salary. Maybe they should cut down your salary to 10% of what it is and give the rest to the homeless"

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jun 2010 01:41

Is it Pallav Bagla?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 Jun 2010 01:54

I just Googled Pallav Bagla to see what he looks like. Its the same guy.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 Jun 2010 02:02

This is the text for the whole interview (before the GSLV launch): http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/isros-bi ... -20005.php

Read it in full to see the # of snipes this Pallava Bagla twat takes at ISRO. I am amazed that Radhakrishnan didnt punch him in the face.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 16 Jun 2010 03:09

Huh?

The interview was obviously scripted, Bagla asked the question (obvious to those who worry about India's poor, especially those of the West) and was given a very good reply explaining the position of the GOI.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 Jun 2010 04:49

If what you say is true, this is one of the worst scripted interviews I have seen. The questions & the interviewer come across as extremely annoying/disrespectful to ISRO and Dr. Radhakrishnan. The quality of questions were shoddy.

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 16 Jun 2010 18:47

I am eagarly waiting to know the analysis on Cryogenic engine failure.
They had told that analysis findings will be out in 2 months time (Now). Let us expect some hopeful news.

When is PSLV-C15 resheduled launch. Any idea?

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 16 Jun 2010 18:49

"When is PSLV-C15 resheduled launch. Any idea?"

It was said July 22nd somewhere. Originally it was in June sometime.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 18 Jun 2010 07:38

South Korea Agrees to Launch Satellites Through ISRO

Not bad - India is gaining more customers. But I think SpaceX looks set to leapfrog the international competition.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 19 Jun 2010 06:07

ISRO's NBF Continues to Push Frontier

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 19 Jun 2010 07:27

India and SKorea Agree to Pursue Space Cooperation Opportunities

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 21 Jun 2010 07:39

ROK agrees to India's space launch use suggestion

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 21 Jun 2010 14:15

ISRO plans to launch satellite to study greenhouse gases

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 21 Jun 2010 20:52

All these announcement of upcoming climate satellites or Sun satellites, are wonderful. But when are we going to hear news of much awaited satellites like RISAT-1, Resourcesat, Astrosat and SRE-2? They are all important, but Astrosat is going to be particularly major and innovative.

Matthew_H · Post by **Matthew_H** » 23 Jun 2010 00:20

Deleted spam posted on multiple threads.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jun 2010 01:34

Sanjay M wrote:South Korea Agrees to Launch Satellites Through ISRO

Not bad - India is gaining more customers. But I think SpaceX looks set to leapfrog the international competition.

Arent they getting better value for their money? Would be stupid to get stuff launched by high price vendors!

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 23 Jun 2010 01:47

ramana wrote:
Sanjay M wrote:South Korea Agrees to Launch Satellites Through ISRO

Not bad - India is gaining more customers. But I think SpaceX looks set to leapfrog the international competition.

Arent they getting better value for their money? Would be stupid to get stuff launched by high price vendors!

Spacex is actually supposed to be very cheap.It is already redefining the space launch business.But they will still take some more tests to validate their designs.Anyway they are completely booked till 2012.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX

SpaceX grew from 160 employees in November 2005 to more than 500 by July 2008.[4][5] The launch crew in the Marshall Islands has 25 people with 6 in mission control. This small number, compared to similar space launch companies is part of Musk's design to reduce costs. Musk believes the high prices of other space-launch services are driven in part by unnecessary bureaucracy. He has stated that one of his goals is to improve the cost and reliability of access to space, ultimately by a factor of ten

Don't worry there is still a lot of demand for satellite launching so in short to medium term ISRO will not be facing any trouble getting customers.In long run private sector will have an edge.That is my opinion

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 23 Jun 2010 08:14

Comparison of SpaceX and ISRO:

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1648/1

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Jun 2010 09:59

a little dubious article, ISRO with $1.2 bn spends on a lot many more things than spaceX including trying to create the infrastructure and technical manpool that NASA already has created and easily tapped into by the likes of spaceX.

SpaceX launch cost to GTO(from wiki) is expected to be 10,903$/kg. ISRO's launch cost to GTO from GSLV Mk3 is supposed to be $10,000/kg. I fail to see the difference.

kulhari · Post by **kulhari** » 23 Jun 2010 10:52

The difference is sharp $903/Kg in favour of ISRO...

The author of the article is clearly biased towards private enterprise via-a-vis govt units and is using Korean and ISRO as scape goats. Bad attempt at that..

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 24 Jun 2010 05:13

Like I said before - what would be wrong in spinning off PSLV to a private consortium, once GSLV-Mk3 gets going and becomes ISRO's main launch vehicle?

A private consortium could leverage PSLV's maturity and solid track record, and aggressively market its launch services across the entire spectrum of the global market for its payload class.

The privately run group would probably be able to cut costs and incrementally advance the technology, giving India a good backup launcher while also helping to grow the ecosystem of private partners available for aerospace endeavours.

I'm thinking that a privately-run PSLV launch provider would drop the cost of launches significantly below $10K, and at that point the service becomes attractive to all sorts of new business prospects that would have otherwise been priced out of the market.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 24 Jun 2010 10:07

^^^
The quotient of privatization in terms of manufacturing,satellite making, system development can be increased as much as we want. But IMHO, the orchestration and the actual launch should still be controlled by the government (ISRO)

Reasons are multi- fold.
- The private company (or consortium) has to take ownership - if the vehicle veers off course - falling on Indian or foreign assets, who is going to pay for damages?
- To be frank, private sectors experience in these matters is minuscule and they have to build their credibility ground up though PSLV is tried and tested. And they can not handle failure in the launch business - costs are just too high.
- Technology leakages from private companies have to be monitored. Severe action needs to be take if they sell it or let it be stolen.
- Cream of the ISRO staff would get high ranking positions within these private companies for a nice hefty salary. The cream of educations institutions would also be hired by privates. ISRO would be weakened.
- Profits currently made by ISRO/Antrix using the PSLV would now be flowing into the pockets of few big fishes.
- A ton of legal amendments, government approvals need to happen before any private party can use the Indian airspace for a launching a space craft. Another downer for privates to enter this business.

However, the number of launches can be easily increased. More options means reduction in prices. If the private companies are prudent in reinvesting their profit to do more research, then the speed of further space research would also grow exponentially in India. We might trigger a space revolution (like the IT or green revolution)

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 24 Jun 2010 11:57

Kailash wrote: Reasons are multi- fold.
- The private company (or consortium) has to take ownership - if the vehicle veers off course - falling on Indian or foreign assets, who is going to pay for damages?

Do you think SpaceX is going to compensate people if their Falcon crashes into somebody's home or burns down a whole city ? Not likely. They'll hide behind Washington D.C and issue sob stories and hire a PR company. Case in point Union Carbide or even BP today.
Further, the rocket trajectories are such that even if there is failure they will crash into the sea, so the probability of catastrophic damage on the ground is minuscule.

Kailash wrote: - To be frank, private sectors experience in these matters is minuscule and they have to build their credibility ground up though PSLV is tried and tested. And they can not handle failure in the launch business - costs are just too high.

Those SpaceX guys are all ex-Nasa engineers/JPL etc . Are we to believe that they are so capable and so intelligent that they can Research and Build a medium to heavy lift launch vehicle from scratch in 6 years flat when huge countries with multi-billion dollar budgets and extensive R&D programs like Japan, Europe, Korea etc took more time, with more people and had to improvise with outside technology ? Not to mention the huge number of legal hoops of technology control regimes ?
It is clear that all the research is done by NASA and the US government all these decades at the costs of hundreds of billions and these guys have just built from designs that are already tried and tested. Further, they just had once successful launch so far and it was a test. The real test would be to demonstrate the ability to consistently put their payload to the proper orbit at the prices they claim.

Kailash wrote: - Technology leakages from private companies have to be monitored. Severe action needs to be take if they sell it or let it be stolen.

Unlike the government, where nobody looses anything from their pocket, the private sector in any market based economy will jealously guard its technical secrets with a zeal that would make a jehadi blush. If SpaceX employees were to sell their know-how, the Chinese would have already bought it from them and built a falcon 9 assembly line. American private companies like Raytheon, Lockheed Martin etc make everything from stealth bombers to spy satellites. They have managed to keep secrets pretty well. Why can't Indian companies do the same, if they follow similar procedures and practices that American defense companies follow. In India Infosys employees or Wipro employees are hardly trading corporate secrets like vegetables in the black market. This shows that secrecy in private Indian companies is easily possible with the right incentive and the right checks.

Kailash wrote: - Cream of the ISRO staff would get high ranking positions within these private companies for a nice hefty salary. The cream of educations institutions would also be hired by privates. ISRO would be weakened.

Money is just one of the criteria that people who join ISRO or DRDO take into consideration. The ability to do path breaking work or engage in cutting edge research is something only governments can fund and fame can only be gained by those who do pioneering research. Any Indian company that would launch space vehicles would also attract some scientists while ISRO would attract those interested in other areas. Also, maintaining the ability to make space exploration profitable would encourage many more people into the field helping India capabilities as a whole while ISRO the organization may be weakened somewhat in some areas. At the end of the day Indian technical abilities should be a higher priority than ISROs.

Kailash wrote: - Profits currently made by ISRO/Antrix using the PSLV would now be flowing into the pockets of few big fishes.

Actually, more people who actually do the work and build the equipment would be better compensated for their work. While new capital could be easily generated through the public and private funds through the equities, bonds or even corporate holdings. IF ISRO can give them the Research and the Technical expertise and allow them to use ISRO facilities for launch, tracking and recovery, they too can make a profit by running a more efficient launch business that will drive the costs for India to launch payloads while research and development could simultaneously be carried out in the government sector separately.

Kailash wrote: - A ton of legal amendments, government approvals need to happen before any private party can use the Indian airspace for a launching a space craft. Another downer for privates to enter this business.

As usual, the path to India's progress is blocked by Indians themselves. This is one point I cannot but agree with you. But if L&T or Tatas or Reliance etc were to seriously be encouraged by the government through subsidies and tax credits, it is very possible. In the end, the main difficulty NASA faced is making space launch cheap and profitable. Private corporations can reduce costs and improve affordability much better than any public sector company because of higher efficiency and the profit motive.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jun 2010 15:04

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=179265

israel has launched its ofek9 to join 5 other spysats in orbit. hopefully a mutual sharing pact exists to provide data from india and israeli satellites to each other for selected areas of the globe.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 25 Jun 2010 01:20

In all these private vs public spending on space what gets lost in the conversation is, at what point does real profit show up in such ventures. Till then it is supported by the largess of a few rich individuals as an expensive hobby. Nothing different from a rich government doing the same.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 25 Jun 2010 09:50

While space launch is a business with high capital costs, the pursuit of it as a business will lead to more aggressive and flexible decision-making, because a business has to survive on its own offering, unlike a govt-run program which can rely on the state treasury provided there is political support.

And that then highlights another aspect of India's space program -- all the ambitious promise-making, which seems more designed to impress politicians and gain their support. A privately run business would have to behave more maturely, since the credibility of its offering would likely be more soberly assessed by its commercial customers as compared to the way politicians respond to the gushing grand visions of ISRO chairmen. Government scientists are skilled in grantsmanship ("Nuclear Fusion energy is just around the corner! Just give us a little more money!"), while a high capital-cost business will have to make a sale on more concrete grounds.
These days, we do see ISRO honchos literally promising a "man on the moon"

Meanwhile, I'm worried that GSLV-Mk3 will end up like LCA, Arjun tank, etc.

Privatizing PSLV could allow for a more aggressive evolution and refinement of that launch platform, while expanding India's foothold in the market. A competitive business will try to do more, rather than rest on its laurels. Its decision-makers will be more adept and attuned to what the market wants and needs. ISRO could ultimately become a system designer and developer, with its deep reserve of scientific talent, which a private launcher could then manufacture and operate under license.

Look at how Indian engineers have radically reduced the cost of so many aspects of information technology, to the amazement and respect of the world. Just think of what they could similarly do in the space industry.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 25 Jun 2010 11:46

Do you think SpaceX is going to compensate people if their Falcon crashes into somebody's home or burns down a whole city ? Not likely. They'll hide behind Washington D.C and issue sob stories and hire a PR company.

Those SpaceX guys are all ex-Nasa engineers/JPL etc .

I am not trying to compare an American company with what a perceived Indian startup might be. They simply cant be compared. While it will take just days to file litigation and take punitive measures on a US company which fires a misguide rocket or sells technology, it will take the Indian penal system decades.

the private sector in any market based economy will jealously guard its technical secrets with a zeal that would make a jehadi blush.

A private enterprise aims at making profit - the need to safeguard information is just an effect. Any technology that is being transferred from ISRO to the private companies, being leaked out to other nations, be it intentional(sale of products, sub systems) or unintended (cyber theft, industrial espionage etc) would expose our own technology levels. Also it would become an overhead for the government to monitor and enforce physical and cyber security measures that prevent these.

Also, maintaining the ability to make space exploration profitable would encourage many more people into the field helping India capabilities as a whole while ISRO the organization may be weakened somewhat in some areas. At the end of the day Indian technical abilities should be a higher priority than ISROs.

It is the same private companies that are currently helping ISRO with the manufacturing. The only way I see it becoming more profitable when the technology is given to competing companies and there is a huge launch order driving down the per launch costs.

But, these firms have to establish their own credibility and consistency record from scratch - developed their own design, not borrow from ISRO.

Actually, more people who actually do the work and build the equipment would be better compensated for their work. While new capital could be easily generated through the public and private funds through the equities, bonds or even corporate holdings.

I don't quite get your point here. Are we talking about money being an issue for research at ISRO? or that ISRO scientists are not paid enough? IMHO, a public trader or privately funded company is more prone to bankruptcy than a state own enterprise like ISRO.

My point is, space is not something easy to privatize, or good to privatize. Investments are huge, returns are slow, growth is tough and risk is high. And let us not judge SpaceX achievements too quickly - let their platforms prove their consistency and get a customer base.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 25 Jun 2010 12:09

Privatizing PSLV could allow for a more aggressive evolution and refinement of that launch platform, while expanding India's foothold in the market. A competitive business will try to do more, rather than rest on its laurels. Its decision-makers will be more adept and attuned to what the market wants and needs. ISRO could ultimately become a system designer and developer, with its deep reserve of scientific talent, which a private launcher could then manufacture and operate under license.

That would be ideal. Considering SpaceX (started in 2002) had its first flight in 6 years (2008). How long do you think it will take our private sector companies to do an entire launch? next 10-15 years?

Since NASA funds are shrinking, SpaceX gained popularity. But ISRO is still competitive enough. The portion of work done within ISRO in terms of manufacturing/quality control/testing etc can be increasingly offloaded to private sector. But actual launches itself needs to be controlled and orchestrated by ISRO.

Look at how Indian engineers have radically reduced the cost of so many aspects of information technology, to the amazement and respect of the world. Just think of what they could similarly do in the space industry.

Apples and oranges sir. Software requires minuscule capital/time in comparison with launching rockets. Rocketry is much more dangerous - dual use technology!

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 25 Jun 2010 18:10

Kailash wrote:
Actually, more people who actually do the work and build the equipment would be better compensated for their work. While new capital could be easily generated through the public and private funds through the equities, bonds or even corporate holdings.
I don't quite get your point here. Are we talking about money being an issue for research at ISRO? or that ISRO scientists are not paid enough? IMHO, a public trader or privately funded company is more prone to bankruptcy than a state own enterprise like ISRO.

I think he means that ISRO itself is also beginning to suffer from Indian public sector diseases, like quota-ism, etc. You've seen how hard it's been for the Whitehouse to end the Shuttle program, because it's become a jobs program. Likewise, these diseases will affect ISRO as well over time. The organization will suffer from bloat, producing more fancy promises and fewer actual results.

A private organization will reward those who are actually productive, while whittling away the free riders. The real talent will be retained, while the posers will be dropped off. The business world is less forgiving than the publically-funded world.

Apples and oranges sir. Software requires minuscule capital/time in comparison with launching rockets. Rocketry is much more dangerous - dual use technology!

Alright, fair enough, the business models are not identical, but competitors would be facing the same challenging business model too. A private Indian competitor would be able to achieve cost advantages that would open up more markets to it (aka. "blue oceans"). If India could develop the Tata Nano of space launchers which could fundamentally disrupt the marketplace from below, then it could create a sea change in the markets.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 25 Jun 2010 20:07

What has stopped Indian entrepreneurs to do exactly what SpaceX has done. If GoI is not willing to grant them access to space by way of launch facilities etc, why cannot they do the same using foreign shores. Private industrialists have done that umpteen times. It would have happened if there was any significant money to be made.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Jun 2010 20:21

sanjay, if you actually kept track of ISRO projects you will know that RLV and associated projects intend to do just that, create a nano of launch vehicles, it clearly doesn't need a pvt co to think ahead.

comparisons with arjun or LCA is entirely apples and oranges, in those programs the problem has been primarily the apathy of the users, in ISRO's case, it is the user.

as for cutting costs etc, ISRO has been consistently off-loading more and more sophisticated items to the pvt sector, limiting itself to the critical areas. in time, that would be the most efficient model cost-wise and the pvt co's would have enough exposure to jump-start development by themselves. what does the country stand to gain if GOI simply gifts pvt co's with hard won tech ?