PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Oct 2010 09:13

Some PAK-FA stuff ( via black venom/keypubs )

Military tv program "CMOTP" broadcasted on Russian TV brings in 26:00 minutes the story of T-50 and previously unpublished interviews with pilot Sergei Bogdan and M. Pogosjan during Putin's visit to Zhukovsky, on16 June this year. Also there are some new cadres from 16th flight of T-50.

Link for download:PAK-FA:Putin's visit to Zhukovsky

Translated in English ( black venom )

Brisk running start and the plane is taking off from the airport Zhukovsky runway. Seconds later, very active pilotage and confident flight of this beautiful fighter. It's only the 16th flight of the totally new, 5th gen. Sukhoi fighter known as PAK-FA. She was designed to be VLO against opponents radars. The 16th flight she performed extraordinary, it looked as an air meeting flight of a mature plane, despite the fact she is a first prototype and her 16th flight. The plane was piloted 4mins before touch down.

History

PAK FA's maiden flight performed 29-jan-2010 in far east Komsomolsk na Amure. After 6 succesfull flights, plane has been airlifted by An-124 Ruslan to LII Gromov, Zhukovsky airport where primary phase of flight testing has been started. Some history bublings about first idea of 5gen planes in 1970-es, then appearance of Mig 1.44, Su-47 berkut and how Sukhoi stepped from back and won tender for creation of 5 gen fighter.

Statement of V. Putin about PAK FA program:
2002 started program PAK FA,
2004 he had seem the mock of PAK FA,
2005 started finansing from state budget,
on May 2009 he was the first one who saw the machine in assembling and today (17 june 2010)she flies).

Then he made statement that PAK FA would be better in terms of flight autonomy, weapon systems and maneuverability.

Timing for entering in service is very short, but attainable. On first two testbed there will be no onboard electronic equipment,like radars and AEW systems, weapons systems. It is planned for 3rd and 4th testbeds. First two testbeds was built to test aerodynamics, airframe and layout of aircraft. After completion of primary phase of flight testing it was concluded not to change airframe and layout of aircraft which significantly speed ups work completion.

The very first look of PAK FA reveals some her genuine features - great maneuverability thanks to all movable tail fins and stabilisers. The motor gondolas are greatly distanced giving the plane better chances to survive direct hit or advent of fire.

On plane are installed izdelie 117 engines. Its a temporary solution because more powerful and more sophisticated engines are planned. Engine and airframe are planes hearth.

Pogosjan
works on 2nd phase engines for pakfa will start in 1st quoter 2011.
Engine nozzles will probably be flat to lower RCS. It is clear from airframe layout that PAK FA is developed to be LO plane. Also she can super cruise and attack targets in air and on ground (also at sea).

Sergei Bogdan - The plane are very comfortable and easy to fly. She performed very well, and such stability, control and level of flight were not affordable for earlier tested planes. The plane can already be pilotaged in low level heights, analyze data obtained from such flights to assess planes maneuverability, stability and control.

Next step is to evaluate performance of maneuverability, stability and control in regimes of greater altitude range flights, greater velocity and AoA ranges, greater g overloads in maneuvers. Radical changes in FBW software compared to legacy russian planes, great area of controlled aerodynamically surfaces, TVC, ensures extraordinary possibilities in dogfight.

Pogosjan - The main characteristics of 5 gem fighter are not wider range of aircraft pilotage capabilities or maneuverability (which usually PAK FA does better than compared to all aircraft, series Su-30) It is a small radar reflection, which allows you to defeat the enemy at maximum greater distances (he emphasized importance of BVR combat capabilities of PAK FA). It should tbe provided by means of powerful AEW systems onboard, a powerful optical tracking system that allows him to engage targets in the IR spectrum, and other systems as well as and long range missiles that are being developed for the aircraft. Plane needs to be easily maintained and easily repaired on field.

Maintenance cost must be significantly lower compared to legacy machines costs. In PAK FA are incorporated auto diagnostic systems with a function to signa malfunction of onboard systems and prevent greater failures.

The share of composite materials in airframe are 33%. Number of parts reduced 4 times, compared to Su-27. In 2011 3rd and 4th testbeds will join flight testing, equipped with full onboard electronic and weapon systems.

The effectiveness of PAKFA is on level like 3-4 time better then legacy 4, 4+ gen fighters. The levels of RCS on PAK FA yet to be tested and verified in future testbed testings.

kit · Post by **kit** » 13 Oct 2010 12:04

I suppose India can maintain a large fleet of maintanence intensive stealth fighters relatively easily than western nations ?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Oct 2010 12:17

Austin,
Thanks for the article. Very Nice read. This also confirms that there will be flat nozzles in future engine. I am a little surprised regarding that.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 13 Oct 2010 12:31

Kit, I guess you are drawing your conclusion from the maintenance times of raptor. That kind of maintenance is required for keeping metal marble size RCS. PAK-FA will have a greater RCS and that kind of stealth has been sacrifices to some extent in favour of cost and maintainability. These are my conclusions from whatever has been available online, I may be wrong though.

On another note, AMCA is definitely of utmost importance to be able to be independent in future.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 15 Oct 2010 11:55

India Announces Order For Up to 345 Warplanes

The fifth-generation fighter planes will be produced by Russia’s Sukhoi and India’s National Aerospace Laboratories, it was announced. A Russian-drafted contract has already been submitted for India’s approval.

“It is too early to talk about the price of the deals,” said Konstantin Makiyenko, deputy director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, because the contracts would only be signed during President Dmitry Medvedev’s planned visit to India in December.

Makiyenko suggested maximum prices of $100 million for the fighter planes and $50 million for the transport planes, which could bring the value of the deal up to $32.25 billion. Economic conditions at the time of contract signing will have an impact on the price, he said.

Design of the aircraft will cost $300 million, and the first planes should be ready by 2015, Interfax reported.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 15 Oct 2010 15:25

^ It is possible that the 40 planes request from SFC could be fulfilled by PAK-FA. It has the stealth, long range and necessary feature for undertaking such missions.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 Oct 2010 16:20

or could be naval variants.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 15 Oct 2010 16:34

Firstly it HAL not NAL and the article says what we already know i.e 300 PAK-FA/FGFA + 45 MTA = 345 aircrafts. What SFC and Naval variant ?

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 15 Oct 2010 17:35

Right, I guess, SFC has asked for the aircrafts for now/near future, FGFA is not going to materialize before 2018..optimistically speaking. So, effectively we are talking about almost a decade from now.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Oct 2010 15:57

Very noob question. Will the AMCA and the FGFA (PAK-FA) diffrent aircrafts or will them be the same design?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 16 Oct 2010 16:35

^^
As per the news reports, they are two totally different aircrafts.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 16 Oct 2010 20:26

Pratyush wrote:Very noob question. Will the AMCA and the FGFA (PAK-FA) diffrent aircrafts or will them be the same design?

AMCA will be much lighter aircraft. It will be a medium category fighter where as FGFA will be a heavy category fighter. So obviously they will be different designs. But we can expect AMCA to incorporate FGFA technologies. Also AMCA will most probably have lower max range. All this according to news reports.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 16 Oct 2010 21:52

PAK-FA TEST FLIGHTS NEW VIDEO

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Oct 2010 22:10

Good video. Choosing a platform is much more news than joint partnership.. says how much we can add in, and contribute to the platform.

I am sure, further reducing RCS and increasing weapons configuration and stealth would mean F-22 program gets more money and attention in the states.

Lot of exciting news coming, LCA certifications, hope "MCA is actually FGFA" (change in plan?) and the whole LCA team is super engaged now. Need to keep CMM level-5 engineering standards for precision setups. Getting closer with Russia especially on the core engine could be very interesting and learning aspect for Kaveri-Snecma++. I hope we have a wonderful news on the engines for LCA in another 5 years, and down the line, an advanced version could actually mate with FGFA.

great!

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 17 Oct 2010 05:59

Craig Alpert wrote:PAK-FA TEST FLIGHTS NEW VIDEO

Absolutely beautiful.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 17 Oct 2010 06:48

HAL to play critical role in fifth gen aircraft
ET repots..

“We will be part of the team designing the aircraft’s fuselage and airframe, and will be manufacturing the same in India as well. While we have had a certain amount of experience designing aircraft, playing a role in the design and development of next generation combat features such as stealth and super cruise will add to our knowledge,” HAL chairman and managing director Ashok Nayak said.

While the Indian Air Force has indicated its preference for a twin-seater version of the fifth generation aircraft, Mr Nayak indicated that HAL will be playing a role in the further development of the single-seater combat aircraft as well. “We will be working on the single-seater combat aircraft to a certain extent. That is because we have to understand the entire design process of the aircraft and then move on to the twin-seater version ,” he said. There is a possibility of the IAF inducting between 250 to 300 FGFA by 2018, comprising of both single-seater and twinseater variants, while the Russians have shown their preference for the former only. “We are going along with the single-seater FGFA for the moment, but the IAF want a twin-seater combat aircraft also. However, this is yet to be crystallised ,” Mr Nayak said

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 17 Oct 2010 11:10

PAK-FA TEST FLIGHTS NEW VIDEO

beautiful video

wish to see it in IAF colors soon

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 17 Oct 2010 11:58

Great video indeed, PAK-FA simply superb in its low flying performance.

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 17 Oct 2010 13:11

Great video, but when will we really assimilate technology? China has started producing Russian plane clones, and we are still importing importing.... importing...endlessly. China has not produced the engine yet.

manum · Post by **manum** » 17 Oct 2010 14:11

kshirin wrote:Great video, but when will we really assimilate technology? China has started producing Russian plane clones, and we are still importing importing.... importing...endlessly. China has not produced the engine yet.

who can answer this question? that is why super man came into picture...the great escapism of society, the man who solved any problem instantaneously, as the questions were asked...
lets inspire our kids and not push them by giving example of others kids...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Oct 2010 14:32

the AMCA has to be as good as the JSF to stay relevant in its timeframe vs the chinese and american products that will appear in our backyards.

this means VLO fuselage, 5th gen engine, internal weapons bay, new meterorish weapons, next level of sensor fusion and datalinks...and M2k type uptime.

we also need a armed A2A ucav remotely guided from AWACS and with a 360' onboard defensive radar cover.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Oct 2010 19:34

The T50s flight profile is it is from a single flight suggests that the designer have a great deal of confidence in the flight control laws of the craft. For the pilot to maneuver the beat that way.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 17 Oct 2010 23:06

Was this pic posted here before?

We can see the engine fan blades.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 18 Oct 2010 00:46

nachiket,
It is pretty difficult to say as to what the fan like structure visible in the picture is. It can easily be a radar blocker.They are similar in looks. It is also worthy to note that Russians had experimented with Radar Blockers on Su-27 airframes (perhaps one of the least stealthy modern aircraft) with good results. Bill Sweetman (former editor of Jane's) talks about this in his blog:
Radar blockers on Flankers

Also, Otaku of keypubs puts forth the following argument. Though, I must confess that I am not totally able to understand what he is talking about.

Imho, it's a device to control/direct the airflow to the unusual vertical & lateral cant of the engine compressor face, it probably also doubles as a FOD screen.

The the T-50 does not have an orthodox S-duct. It has a more unusual semi-duct or 'banana' duct as Rodolfo once termed it. They're using an integrated solution to reduce engine RCS including semi-screening of the c-face, canted angles and a radar blocker device (which has several patents pending). Why?
-because by avoiding the classical vertical s-duct they can keep the profile as low as possible. Why? because 'flat' is good for stealth.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Oct 2010 08:06

Looks like engine blades to me. Nevertheless stealth is always a compromise with performance. Perhaps the engines need good unobstructed airflow and despite being seen in one photo the engine face may still retain enough stealth to be effective. After all stealth is not invisibility but more a function of sending out very few strong radar reflections in any direction for any practically detectable and "lockable" length of time.

That engine face is not fully visible and is visible only from that angle. What would a radar have to do to get itself in position to look for those engine blades? Would the aircraft every give anyone time to stand in front and take a photo like the photographer. The answers to these may be more relevant than the fact that the engine face is visible.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Oct 2010 08:18

Well to my untrained eyes, they look like engine blades rather than radar blockers. But I could be wrong. This is only the first prototype though. We could see changes later on. Gaur, thanks for the link.

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Oct 2010 08:33

The keypublishing folks have filled pages on that debate. I think for now we should wait for a bigger and clearer image to be uploaded on the www.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 18 Oct 2010 08:47

Quotes of the HAL Chairman Mr. Ashok Nayak regarding the FGFA

We will be a part of the team designing the IAF variant of the aircraft, and will be manufacturing it in India as well. While we have had certain amount of experience designing aircraft, playing a role in the design and development of next generation combat features, such as stealth and super cruise, will add to our knowledge
...
We will be working on the single-seater combat aircraft to a certain extent. That is because we have to understand the entire design process of the aircraft and then move on to the twin-seater version
...
Design, development and production of the aircraft will be shared between the two countries. Our pilots will be flying the aircraft. Whether this will be done in Bangalore or Nasik, is yet to be decided. We could build it in Nasik and fly it in Bangalore
...
The company will have to expand. We have to ensure that we have that much more capacity to handle these (the Sukhoi and FGFA production lines). We need to achieve our timescales, and be slightly ahead of schedules. We also have to decide, how much work can be retained in-house, and the amount that can be done by outside industries
...
Once the full design contract is signed, we will talk about the development and manufacturing aspect of the FGFA. Whether everything can be done in India, or some elements will have to be sourced from there, will be decided then. Sticking to the timescale will be critical

Original: HAL to Play Major Role in Development of Indo-Russia Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA)

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 18 Oct 2010 16:57

One cannot really differentiate radar blocker from engine blades by just using plain sight.
For eg: Take the following picture of yf-23 radar blocker for reference:
http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/how ... _of_51.jpg
Another blog entry by Bill Sweetman regarding T-50 radar blocker:
Bill Sweetman on T-50 radar blockers

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 21 Oct 2010 14:11

HAL has Big Designs for Fifth Gen Fighter

HAL has Big Designs for Fifth Gen Fighter
Madhumathi D.S.
Bangalore, Oct. 18

When the country's Fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project — One that Will Give India the Smartest and Most Lethal Class of Fighters In This Part of the World — takes off as expected in the coming months, it would be the biggest ever Design and Development Venture to be taken up by Defence Enterprise Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

HAL would be joining Russia's Sukhoi Corporation to co-design, co-develop, and manufacture 200-250 FGFA; each separately for its respective air force. Joint development and production by HAL for the Indian Air Force are estimated to cost Rs 135,000 crore ($30 billion) or around Rs 500 crore each.

HAL's Chairman, Mr Ashok Nayak, told Business Line that the requirements for the Indian version were known but the work packages, that is, HAL's share in the design and development, were to be specified. “We would like to do as much as we can of the design aspect,” he said.

Although the Russian side was testing a single-seater FGFA prototype for its air force, he explained that the Indian version would demand lot of work in new design as well as changes for what could be a two-seater for the IAF.

Mr Nayak said he could not say how long it would take to build the prototypes and reach them to flight certification.

Reports say a preliminary design agreement is to be signed in December when the Russian President, Mr Dmitry Medvedev, comes to India.

Meanwhile, the defence public sector unit is creating a Special Team from Existing and Fresh Engineers at Its Design Bureau — the Aircraft Research and Design Centre — according to a person familiar with the programme, but who did not wish to be named. It would start with 30-50 engineers, and gradually take it to around 300 people.

HAL would also have to create some of the large infrastructure required for the FGFA, and the lead centre could be Nashik, which has a ready Sukhoi platform. Other divisions would chip in.

At the prototype development stage, HAL would primarily involve the many defence and scientific labs such as National Aerospace Laboratories in Bangalore.

A Highly Placed HAL Official Conceded that the FGFA Design is Extremely Complex, and No Country will Trade the Technology; You have to be an Investing Partner.

Stealth — the feature that makes it undetectable by enemy radars — is the main element of this Futuristic Aerial killer. For this it has to have a Radar-Eluding Shape and Configuration. Its supersonic cruising speed, advanced fire power and manoeuvring, modern avionics, and a 360-degree view set it apart from the fighter products of the 1990s.

The first versions have to make a few thousand flights before they are certified for operation. “Even after 25 years, the LCA (light combat aircraft) is still to be certified for operations,” the official observed.

Design alone takes 30-50 per cent of the cost of an aircraft. Building prototypes could be at least 10 per cent of the cost. The two partners are to equally share the costs from this stage onwards.

The HAL Version will also be Jointly Marketed to Other Countries, but May be Made by Either Partner.

The Chief of Air Staff recently said FGFAs would be inducted by 2018, and would be the main part of a four-brand future air fleet. It includes the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft, currently being evaluated for purchase); the home-made LCA and the Sukhoi-30MkI that is already in use.

In January this year, Russia flew the first single-seater prototype (PAK FA) that its own air force will use. India joined the Russian programme (Sukhoi PAK/FA) in 2007 after a long consideration, while Sukhoi has been at it for at least five years.

Only two other FGFA Dreams have Taken Off : US major Lockheed Martin is leading a pack of European nations in the Joint Strike Fighter (F-35); Lockheed Martin and Boeing are developing the F-22 Raptor. Japan and China are also said to be opening their separate fifth-generation accounts.

The Sukhoi/HAL FGFA will be far superior to the most advanced ones available today : among them the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin F-16; the Dassault's Rafale that is still being developed; Russian MiG-35; Eurofighter Typhoon, or Sweden's Saab 39 Gripen; interestingly, all these are in the race for the IAF's Rs 40,000-crore purchase tender for 126 MMRCAs.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Oct 2010 06:51

Composites blades are used by GE leap-x advanced program, and CFM engines, that perhaps can be used on pak-fa as high bypass turbofan. ?

And whatever happened to the plasma injection for radar absorption? these discussions are stealthy as well. Also, per klimov's studies, they have found plasma injection in the hot compression area actually reduces drag.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 26 Oct 2010 14:47

Fifth generation fighters to plug into satellite network

With Moscow willing to grant India unprecedented access to military signals from Russia’s constellation of GLONASS (GLObal NAvigation Satellite System) satellites, the FGFA could access real-time details of its own and enemy positions, terrain information, and have the ability to communicate with Indian forces anywhere on the globe.

A senior Russian diplomat, speaking anonymously to Business Standard, reveals that after extended negotiations with India, Moscow has okayed the provision of military data from GLONASS, in the form of digitized signals. So far, Russia had only agreed to provide India with civilian-grade navigation signals, which permitted an accuracy of 25-30 metres. Now, the military grade signals will allow a far higher accuracy, crucial for military operations.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 26 Oct 2010 17:43

We can see the engine fan blades.

From the available drawings, position of the engine is not there..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Oct 2010 19:52

These prototypes were the building blocks for the PAK-FA program.

Soviet Fifth Gen Fighter Project Mig-1.44 and S-37 Berkut

RedStar - Sukhoi S-37 and Mikoyan MFI - Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter Demonstrators

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 Oct 2010 19:31

Russia, India to begin design of 5G-fighter in December

"An agreement with India on the pre-design of the PAK FA will be signed in December," said Alexei Fyodorov, head of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation.

The sides agreed to develop both a single-seat and a two-seat version of the aircraft by 2016, focusing on the single-seat version in the initial stages of development.

The new aircraft will most likely be based on Russia's T-50 prototype fifth-generation fighter, which has already made several test flights and is expected to join the Russian Air Force in 2015.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Nov 2010 21:31

Just some video on PAK-FA by gamers link

Not sure if this has been posted before , Image Gallery T-50 ( via otaku )

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 09 Nov 2010 18:10

Indian FGFA will be real challenge for American F-22 : German Defense Expert Helmut Hirsch

MR Hirsch believes that Russians have compromised on stealth to keep the aircraft more maneuverable and under a tight budget to keep per aircraft cost under control , Russians simply cannot afford to have such a expensive plane in large numbers , but Indians seems to have realized that and will be doing 30 % of the design changes to improve stealth characters of the aircraft .

When asked if Indian Version will be more stealthy ? MR Hirsch seems confident on that matter , MR Hirsch also believes that real challenge for F-22 will come from Indian FGFA rather than F-35 or Chinese J-XX. MR Hirsch also adds that Indians will add best of technology (Avionics / Radars / Weapons ) from west in their version which makes it even more lethal then F-35 and a real challenge for F-22′s Superiority .

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Nov 2010 18:54

^^^ Many assumption in that write up to put it mildly , sort of not worth reading.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Nov 2010 19:28

Well keep in mind they need a challenger to make the raptor happen. It is all budget politics and democracy.

IR signature is a long way to go for pak-fa

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 09 Nov 2010 20:51

^^
AL-41 is not ready yet.