The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 08 Jun 2011 20:47

Neela wrote:BR does not seem to have hinted at any political agenda.

His agenda isnt "political"?! Then what is it? Given that his message is extremely garbled and incoherent on what he really wants...And super inconsistent on top ("govt agrees with 99% of what I say", "oh no sorry"), or ("PM need not be under Lokpal purview", "oh no sorry didnt say that")...

What is consistent is an attention towards maintaining attention towards the "person" of BR...Is it just coincidence that the first thing that BR did after being "deported" to Hardwar was to head for NOIDA? He is only too aware that NOIDA houses the offices of many news channels...Is it a coincidence that just when he saw interest ebbing just a little bit in his show (a mickey mouse one now, compared to Ramlila) in Hardwar, he talks of raising an armed militia?

I pointed out his pretty intimtae shenanigans with the govt before the "fast" as well..

If he is not a wannabe political animal, then I am afraid he is noting but a useful joker to the UPA II govt...

CAMS-ji, I have zero sympathy for the way the govt has tackled the issue, incl the police action...But lets not elevate BR to a level where he doesnt belong..He is an overambitious wannabe politico at best, lets recognise that and move on...

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Jun 2011 20:52

somnath wrote: Is it just coincidence that the first thing that BR did after being "deported" to Hardwar was to head for NOIDA? He is only too aware that NOIDA houses the offices of many news channels

Maybe that is the closest he could have got to Delhi since all other approaches are under congress ruled state of Haryana.
Naah the INC shills are right as usual.

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 08 Jun 2011 20:57

Neela wrote:BR does not seem to have hinted at any political agenda.

Either he :-
'has' a political agenda of his own .....
(or)
'is' the political agenda of a political party ....

Wanna bet whose going to be the BJP's 'poster boy' in the upcoming UP elections ????

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 20:57

Manishw wrote:^^ There is also the fact that Agnivesh, a wolf in saffron clothing and a psec in saffron is in the AH camp.In my eyes AH becomes suspect for this reason also.

Actually that cuts both ways, if you see the marked support for AH and not BR by some (despite the fact that congress has realized thats the failing game and moved on) -- you can see that it has become difficult for even the most corrupt and hopeless sections to decry AH (although Chidu just did) -- so even as snake oil selling is in full swing "even a diluted Lok pal is achievement" (when the whole idea was to peddle a diluted lok pal as "look we are against corruption"

and which was spiked by AH) unlike the snake oil selling in the Nuke deal time frame, this time the initative is not with the nationalists.

And initiative makes all the difference.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Jun 2011 20:58

Nesoj wrote: Either he :-
'has' a political agenda of his own .....
(or)
'is' the political agenda of a political party ....

Wanna bet whose going to be the BJP's 'poster boy' in the upcoming UP elections ????

Wanna bet who is the voice of the people against corruption today????

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 20:59

Nesoj wrote:
Neela wrote:BR does not seem to have hinted at any political agenda.
Either he :-
'has' a political agenda of his own .....
(or)
'is' the political agenda of a political party ....

Wanna bet whose going to be the BJP's 'poster boy' in the upcoming UP elections ????

Everything is political, AH is political AK is political, anything in political space is political.

The question is does BR need overt political venture? He does not, he will be king maker any which way. Unlike Amul babies, the personal quest for power is a under achievement for him.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 21:01

somnath wrote: CAMS-ji, I have zero sympathy for the way the govt has tackled the issue, incl the police action...But lets not elevate BR to a level where he doesnt belong..He is an overambitious wannabe politico at best, lets recognise that and move on...

BR is already something that entire Congress will never be.

That is causing the takleef to Amul babies and their chamchas who have suddenly discovered that he is a threat after sending Pronob M to grovel before him.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Jun 2011 21:03

Sanku wrote:
Manishw wrote:^^ There is also the fact that Agnivesh, a wolf in saffron clothing and a psec in saffron is in the AH camp.In my eyes AH becomes suspect for this reason also.
Actually that cuts both ways, if you see the marked support for AH and not BR by some (despite the fact that congress has realized thats the failing game and moved on) -- you can see that it has become difficult for even the most corrupt and hopeless sections to decry AH (although Chidu just did) -- so even as snake oil selling is in full swing "even a diluted Lok pal is achievement" (when the whole idea was to peddle a diluted lok pal as "look we are against corruption" and which was spiked by AH) unlike the snake oil selling in the Nuke deal time frame, this time the initative is not with the nationalists.

And initiative makes all the difference.

Sanku Ji,

Don't disagree with you only suspicious of AH in the ratio of 70/30.
70% against, but not made up my mind as yet.Anyway I guess we will know within a month at most.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 08 Jun 2011 21:04

Nesoj wrote:
Neela wrote:BR does not seem to have hinted at any political agenda.
Either he :-
'has' a political agenda of his own .....
(or)
'is' the political agenda of a political party ....

Wanna bet whose going to be the BJP's 'poster boy' in the upcoming UP elections ????

Oh boy! Here we go again! lost the plot have we?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 21:07

Manishw wrote: Sanku Ji,

Don't disagree with you only suspicious of AH in the ratio of 70/30.
70% against, but not made up my mind as yet.Anyway I guess we will know within a month at most.

Manish-ji, I am not pro AH, he has distinctly nasty elements in his midst, however I think thats sort of good thing, since the left lib cant attack them, if AH is indeed RSS mukhota (If Chidu is called out to say this, its clear that they are rattled by RSS links, which have undoubtedly existed, remember his praising NM?) -- then AH has done what B-ji was asking BR to do, keep the "first class Indian citizens" (as opposed to rest of us second class citizens) around to blunt the attack.

Perhaps, just perhaps, some one was clever this time?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 08 Jun 2011 21:08

Hazare is closely identified with the Congress party - superficially there is not much difference in dress between Congressmen and Hazare, and the Lokpal bill was on the agenda of Sonia's NAC. Therefore he will struggle to gain credibility in opposition circles. Ramdev similarly suffers a handicap in Congress circles because he is seen to be associated with the RSS and BJP.

So thinking politically, both Hazare and Ramdev are necessary to build a consensus around the issue. Neither one alone can put suspicions to rest in all quarters.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Jun 2011 21:12

Sanku wrote:
Manishw wrote: Sanku Ji,

Don't disagree with you only suspicious of AH in the ratio of 70/30.
70% against, but not made up my mind as yet.Anyway I guess we will know within a month at most.
Manish-ji, I am not pro AH, he has distinctly nasty elements in his midst, however I think thats sort of good thing, since the left lib cant attack them, if AH is indeed RSS mukhota (If Chidu is called out to say this, its clear that they are rattled by RSS links, which have undoubtedly existed, remember his praising NM?) -- then AH has done what B-ji was asking BR to do, keep the "first class Indian citizens" (as opposed to rest of us second class citizens) around to blunt the attack.

Perhaps, just perhaps, some one was clever this time?

True-True, Truly hope you are correct Sanku Ji.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 21:13

vera_k wrote: Neither one alone can put suspicions to rest in all quarters.

Its not about building consensus, the Congress govt DOES NOT want effective anti-corruption measures. They want a NREGA type of scheme to show that they did something while not doing anything (political posturing and money making)

Its about forcing a clear exposure of who stands where in Corruption fight.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jun 2011 21:15

somnath wrote:
rajanb wrote:Having said that an opportunity has been lost by both AH and BR, not dovetailing their demands into a comprehensive whole
Its not about "groups", its about the agenda...BR's was a clear case of trying to ride on the corruption bandwagon after the govt seemingly capitulated to the AH fast on Lokpal...He has been looking for a start into politics for some time now, and decided to hitch his wagon to AH...

Just look at the guys in the so-called "AH group" and look at BR - one would get the convictions and motivations clearly..

BR is basically a man of (some) charisma and high political ambition who has over-extended himself and hence lost even basic coherence of thought and action - the call to arms being the latest example of that

After hearing the news right now, I am beginning to lose all faith and seriously question the intent of BR.

I, personally, feel that corruption has permeated the whole political class. While the Congress is digging their heels in publicly, political parties are, in my opinion, working in the background to try and suck the cause into a quagmire.

That, and BR's own ambitions, seems to have led to the reason why BR started his agitation before 6th June? Trying to derail AH?

BR's vacillation between forgiving the PM and now raising an armed cadre points to a few possibilities:

a) has he lost his marbles?
b) is desperation writ over the political class that they want to protect their right to ill gotten gain. ( I hasten to add the some of them maybe honest, but where do they get the money to fight elections?)
c) His ego is greater than the collective will of the people?

I would, for one, like to see it as a peaceful agitation. In the footsteps of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, so the aspirations of the country can be met.

And the people should be united. Regardless of caste, creed or political affiliation. Corruption is bad. Black money is bad. PERIOD.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 21:19

rajanb wrote: I would, for one, like to see it as a peaceful agitation. In the footsteps of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, so the aspirations of the country can be met.

Thats a nice fantasy that Indians live with, but in reality it was the INA and One day freedom struggle of Naval ratings that led to English browning their khakis and getting out pronto. Amongst others.

Nehru hijacked - MKG faction of Congress was just the easiest public figure that British found it most profitable to use to cover their backsides while running away.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jun 2011 21:23

Sanku wrote:
rajanb wrote: I would, for one, like to see it as a peaceful agitation. In the footsteps of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, so the aspirations of the country can be met.
Thats a nice fantasy that Indians live with, but in reality it was the INA and One day freedom struggle of Naval ratings that led to English browning their khakis and getting out pronto. Amongst others.

Nehru hijacked - MKG faction of Congress was just the easiest public figure that British found it most profitable to use to cover their backsides while running away.

It isn't a fantasy Sanku. My grandad and his brother spent years in a brit run prison. I speak from experience. And the suffering that our family went through when two bread earners were in jail.

And where have you got your opinion from? Pray tell?

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 08 Jun 2011 21:24

In the footsteps of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, so the aspirations of the country can be met.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 21:25

rajanb wrote:
It isn't a fantasy Sanku. My grandad and his brother spent years in a brit run prison. I speak from experience. And the suffering that our family went through when two bread earners were in jail.

And where have you got your opinion from? Pray tell?

There was not only one family involved in the freedom struggle and not only one man.

It would help to remember that.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Jun 2011 21:26

rajanb wrote: a) has he lost his marbles?
b) is desperation writ over the political class that they want to protect their right to ill gotten gain. ( I hasten to add the some of them maybe honest, but where do they get the money to fight elections?)
c) His ego is greater than the collective will of the people?

or
d)perhaps he was naive while dealing with the honest and upright politicians, is under tremendous amount of stress, is hungry for some time, has been through the shock of his life, seen brutalities unleashed and hence traumatized.

rajanb wrote: I would, for one, like to see it as a peaceful agitation. In the footsteps of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, so the aspirations of the country can be met.

Ya when armed forces lathi charge and leave mayhem in their wake and let loose all the state machinery it becomes a tad difficult to live up to your high moral standards.

rajanb wrote: And the people should be united. Regardless of caste, creed or political affiliation. Corruption is bad. Black money is bad. PERIOD.

As sun should rise in the east and set in the west.Man should treat man nicely.Goodness is a virtue etc. etc. etc.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Jun 2011 21:35

rajanb wrote: It isn't a fantasy Sanku. My grandad and his brother spent years in a brit run prison. I speak from experience. And the suffering that our family went through when two bread earners were in jail.

And where have you got your opinion from? Pray tell?

The argument basically boils down to this-My d*** is longer than yours , so I am right.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jun 2011 21:39

@manishw

Am glad you understood what I said. Does D**k come into every thought of yours? And I graciously accept that you have the right to think as you do.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Jun 2011 21:43

My family has suffered tremendously both during 47 and chinese aggression and sadly we lost our members after they were tortured.I have never brought up this topic here let alone to an debate.You did so I understood.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 08 Jun 2011 21:47

It isn't a fantasy Sanku. My grandad and his brother spent years in a brit run prison. I speak from experience. And the suffering that our family went through when two bread earners were in jail.

And where have you got your opinion from? Pray tell?

I never understood this argument of going to jail and hence right to offer certificate of patriotism. Most of the adults in my clan were either shot dead or hanged from the tree during 1857 for siding with Kunwar Jagdish Singh. Those who didn't were co-opted and promoted and later day becoming backbone of congress in the area.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jun 2011 21:47

@Manishw
Sorry to hear that but I won't get into the history of my relatives in the armed forces. Plenty of them have fought for the country. All four wars. O/T for this thread.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 08 Jun 2011 22:03

rajanb wrote:@manishw

Am glad you understood what I said. Does D**k come into every thought of yours? And I graciously accept that you have the right to think as you do.

That was an idiom, was it necessary to bringing down discussion to this ?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jun 2011 22:10

anmol wrote:
rajanb wrote:@manishw

Am glad you understood what I said. Does D**k come into every thought of yours? And I graciously accept that you have the right to think as you do.
That was an idiom, was it necessary to bringing down discussion to this ?

Definitely wasn't my intent to bring it down to this. And I know it is an idiom and its usage is normally confined within a circle of people whom you are familair with. All this is O/T for this thread.

No more on this topic from me.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 08 Jun 2011 22:13

Ramdev have seen the Government trampling upon fundamental rights of Indians.. women children and elderly tear gassed and mercilessly beaten up while they were sleeping to an extent that some have got permanent injuries.

Now please read some of Gandhi's views on Violence vs Cowardice

I WOULD risk violence a thousand times rather than risk the emasculation of a whole race. (YI, 4-8-1920, p5)

I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence....I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonour.

But I do not believe India to be helpless....I do not believe myself to be a helpless creature....Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will. (YI, 11-8-1920, p3)

Though violence is not lawful, when it is offered in self-defence or for the defence of the defenseless, it is an act of bravery far better than cowardly submission. The latter befits neither man nor woman. Under violence, there are many stages and varieties of bravery. Every man must judge this for himself. No other person can or has the right. (H, 27-10-1946, pp369-70)

I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by nonviolently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully. (YI, 11-10-1928, p342)

source: http://www.mkgandhi-sarvodaya.org/momgandhi/chap28.htm

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 08 Jun 2011 22:16

But what is so special about Gandhian methods. Why can't someone employ JP or SCB method both congress man BTW.
As far BR, he has forced people to chose between democratic right of every Indian to protest against Corruption v/s only chosen few have right to rule.
So what is wrong with BR's political ambitions if he has any ? You don't like it, tough luck! If Pranab Da or Chidu can have ambition to replace MMS someday, why can't BR have ambitions.
The fact remains that GoI is running in circles like headless chicken and is doing what it knows best that is to divide and rule and use brutal police force on nationalistic elements. All to save Gaddi for RG.
Is Chidu not ashamed of unleashing police force on sleeping Janta in the middle of the night to show his manhood and now is shedding croc's tears.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Jun 2011 22:27

err AH may have gained national prominence more recently but those of us from Mah have been aware for a long time.

So lets not diss him just because you love BR.

When you wrestle with wild pigs some shit is going to get on you.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 08 Jun 2011 22:32

@VikasRaina ji, Gandhian methods are so special, because some think that those only helped us fight Britishers. Also many don't even know who JP or SCB are. Its easier to teach them little more of Gandhigiri than complete introduction to people like JP-SCB and their methods.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jun 2011 22:43

I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by nonviolently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully. (YI, 11-10-1928, p342)

Anmolji, the last para is what enthuses me.

As far JP-SCB methods would appreciate your pointing me in the right direction to read up for myself.

I had been hopeful so far that BR and AH could work together and present a united front.

But after gleaning news from various channels I find that BR's campaign has been beset by contradictions in his utterances. Sort of displaying chinks in his armour. He has a right to political ambitions.

The end game is to get rid of corruption and to make all those who run our country accountable for their actions. And the need to chose the right way to achieve it with a minimum of loss to people. That isn't cowardice, but a choice of tactics. if the battle gets tougher, the people have to get tougher.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 08 Jun 2011 22:44

^ Anmol ji, Unfortunately Gandhigiri results in corruption of the mind where we keep suffering mulitiple 26/11 yet keep turning other cheek.
Whatever Gandhi had in his mind with his philosophy, Congress in particular and mango Indian in general has turned it upside down in most hideous way.
It is sickening to see ordinary Indian being as violent and rude and rage filled as any other person on this planet yet claims Gandhwaad and like you posted above, a lot of us confuse cowardice with Ahimsa , hence my disgust for the Gandhian method.

For every Gandhi, we had SCB and Bhagat Singh and for every Gautam Budha , we had Chandragupta Maurya.
BR may not be the perfect person and I may have 100 objections but fact remains GoI with its cheap underhand methods have shown that they are the last place where people should look up for upholding democratic traditions and they have shown their true face ruthless trampling a movement which demanded something that even MMS and SG would agree to.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 08 Jun 2011 22:45

so, let me ask? what has the peaceful protest of AH and BR done against corruption?
after all, Gandhi is the be all and and-all of India....so what has this peaceful protest achieved?

the only thing it has achieved is clearly highlighted the brutality of INC. it is up to the rest of the country to decide how they wish to solve the problem. the problem itself has been lucidly identified and forced to come out in the open.....that is the greatest and ONLY achievement of the movement.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 08 Jun 2011 22:46

As per Ramdhari Singh Dinakar

Kshama shobti us Bujanag ko jiske paas garal ho,
Woh kya Khshama kare, jo dant-vihin, saral ho............

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jun 2011 22:51

Agreed Vikasji.

I wasn't surprised that from fawning ministers to lathis on innocent people happened. But at the end of the day the people have to win.

And yes Devesh. A small step but hopefully it will gather momentum in the days to come. That bill hasn't moved in 42 years. What AH and BR have done is to bring it to the notice of many more people now.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 22:51

rajanb wrote: The end game is to get rid of corruption and to make all those who run our country accountable for their actions.

No that is not the end game, that is merely a tactic. The end game is to have the country run by nationalists instead of DiE.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jun 2011 22:54

And end remote controls!

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 08 Jun 2011 22:55

@VikasRaina Ji,

Though I completely agree with you but it is clear from those views of Gandhi that I posted, that Gandhi does not suggest us to keep turning other cheek. He in fact advised us to resort to arms and defend ourself. Sadly many of Gandh-ians ignore this part of his teachings.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 Jun 2011 23:24

anmol wrote: I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by nonviolently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully. (YI, 11-10-1928, p342)

source: http://www.mkgandhi-sarvodaya.org/momgandhi/chap28.htm

off-topic: Hmm ... Gandhi's advice is that people should preferably non-violently face death. rather than resist violently. This is Gandhi's own idea, it has nothing to do with Sanatan Dharma.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 08 Jun 2011 23:43

Sanku wrote:
rajanb wrote: The end game is to get rid of corruption and to make all those who run our country accountable for their actions.
No that is not the end game, that is merely a tactic. The end game is to have the country run by nationalists instead of DiE.

Let us be more clear. The end game is to get rid of the remaining parts of the the 42nd amendment, that inserted the words "Secular" and "Socialist" in the preamble with the word "Dharmic".