Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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jaladipc
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jaladipc »

Official name: DongFeng 31A (DF-31A)
NATO reporting name: CSS-9 Mod-2
Contractor: CASIC 4th Academy
Service status: In service
Configuration: Three-stage, solid propellant
Deployment: Road mobile, 8X8 tractor truck + 8-wheel trailer; or silo
Length: 13m
Body diameter: 2.25m
Launch weight: 42,000kg
Range: 10,700~11,200km
Re-entry vehicle mass: 700kg (or 1,050~1,750kg)
Warhead: One single 1,000kT yield
Guidance: Inertial + stellar update
Accuracy: 100~300m CEP
Launch preparation time: 15~30 min
Compare this to A3 with 17mX2m at 48tonns, but A3 can onleee throw it to 3500km :P sometimes we yindoos think we are over smart in konphusing mullahs, but even a no brainer will see the facts onleee.
BrijeshB
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by BrijeshB »

Dharma R wrote:
Official name: DongFeng 31A (DF-31A)
NATO reporting name: CSS-9 Mod-2
Contractor: CASIC 4th Academy
Service status: In service
Configuration: Three-stage, solid propellant
Deployment: Road mobile, 8X8 tractor truck + 8-wheel trailer; or silo
Length: 13m
Body diameter: 2.25m
Launch weight: 42,000kg
Range: 10,700~11,200km
Re-entry vehicle mass: 700kg (or 1,050~1,750kg)
Warhead: One single 1,000kT yield
Guidance: Inertial + stellar update
Accuracy: 100~300m CEP
Launch preparation time: 15~30 min
Compare this to A3 with 17mX2m at 48tonns, but A3 can onleee throw it to 3500km :P sometimes we yindoos think we are over smart in konphusing mullahs, but even a no brainer will see the facts onleee.
I think it seems pretty obvious from these discussions that both A3 and A5 original ranges may be double the officialy declared ones (ie: 3500X2=7000 km and 5500X2=11000 km) with a little more than 1 tonne Payload. :-?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Another interesting comment from the Hindu report:
With navigation and guidance playing an important role in the flight, “we are going for better navigation systems for higher accuracy for both the normal and the back-up mode,” he added.
a) Normal = satellite guidance + terminal guidance
b) Backup = RLG INS
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

during development we do it in kilometers, and operationally we convert them to miles. :twisted: it is important to keep low on the range.
Kersi D
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Kersi D »

BrijeshB wrote:
Dharma R wrote:Official name: DongFeng 31A (DF-31A)
NATO reporting name: CSS-9 Mod-2
Contractor: CASIC 4th Academy
Service status: In service
Configuration: Three-stage, solid propellant
Deployment: Road mobile, 8X8 tractor truck + 8-wheel trailer; or silo
Length: 13m
Body diameter: 2.25m
Launch weight: 42,000kg
Range: 10,700~11,200km
Re-entry vehicle mass: 700kg (or 1,050~1,750kg)
Warhead: One single 1,000kT yield
Guidance: Inertial + stellar update
Accuracy: 100~300m CEP
Launch preparation time: 15~30 min
Compare this to A3 with 17mX2m at 48tonns, but A3 can onleee throw it to 3500km :P sometimes we yindoos think we are over smart in konphusing mullahs, but even a no brainer will see the facts onleee.

I think it seems pretty obvious from these discussions that both A3 and A5 original ranges may be double the officialy declared ones (ie: 3500X2=7000 km and 5500X2=11000 km) with a little more than 1 tonne Payload. :-?
:D :D :D
BrijeshB
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by BrijeshB »

^^^
That may be a 916Gold BUDHA SMILE on 916thPost. :D ..?
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

GD< I think India has a variety of front ends.
Unitary pure ballistic mode, Unitary maneuvering mode, MIRV mode. Whats being proofed is the middle one.

The current P-5 have the first and last modes for nuke mission. So their ranges appear more.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

I dont think any ICBM uses satellite guidance. even khan who owns GPS does not use it. they use dual INS system which is totally internal and star sensor and nothing is assumed about help from offboard sources.

so our normal and backup would both be INS
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by dinesha »

Countdown to India's big Agni leap begins
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 38111.aspx
The countdown to test-firing Agni-5, India's first inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM), between April 18 and 24 has begun. India is scheduled to issue air and shipping advisories on Tuesday afternoon for the launch of the missile in the Bay of Bengal and Indian Ocean.

Successful test-firing of the Agni-5 will catapult India to a hyper-exclusive club that now counts only the United States, Russia and China as members. It will be a huge strategic leap and give India capability to target all of Asia, including the northernmost parts of China and large parts of Europe as well.

Government sources said that the Indian Navy is expected to issue a world-wide notam (acronym for 'notice to airmen') on Tuesday, asking ships and aircraft to steer clear of the area on account of missile firing during the scheduled period. The three stage solid-fuelled 50-tonne missile will be launched off Wheeler Island in Odisha and is expected to reach its target area in southern Indian Ocean. Defence minister AK Antony is expected to be present for the launch. Official sources said that the missile will be test-fired over the full-range of 5,000 km and will be monitored by DRDO scientists from launch to the point of impact in order to study its accuracy.

Once the missile is inducted into India's strategic forces in the next three years, New Delhi will acquire deterrent capacity against China. India's strategic establishment has been eagerly waiting for the Agni-5 ICBM since Beijing started deploying strategic missiles in Tibet and Xinjiang autonomous regions against India and building capacities of its land forces in the region.

Last year, India discovered multiple missile silos at Xiadulla across the Karakoram Pass in China's Xinjiang region. Following this, the Indian Air Force has strengthened its air bases along the line of actual control that is the de-facto border with China.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sum »

The countdown to test-firing Agni-5, India's first inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM), between April 18 and 24 has begun. India is scheduled to issue air and shipping advisories on Tuesday afternoon for the launch of the missile in the Bay of Bengal and Indian Ocean.
Well, so the GoI seems to have thrown out the "near-ICBM" term and is calling it for what it is, a ICBM.

Is the splash down near the Antarctica or near Oz since recall reading 2 different things in separate reports?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

Prem Kumar wrote:a) Normal = satellite guidance + terminal guidance
b) Backup = RLG INS
Singha wrote:I dont think any ICBM uses satellite guidance. even khan who owns GPS does not use it. they use dual INS system which is totally internal and star sensor and nothing is assumed about help from offboard sources.

so our normal and backup would both be INS
Here is a line from the official release (via Tarmak007 blog)following successful testing of Agni -IV.
The indigenous Ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (RINS) and Micro Navigation System (MINGS) complementing each other in redundant mode have been successfully flown in guidance mode for the first time.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by keshavchandra »

The countdown to test-firing Agni-5, India’s first inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM), between April 18 and 24 has begun.Government sources said that the Indian Navy is expected to issue a world-wide notam (acronym for ‘notice to airmen’) on Tuesday, asking ships and aircraft to steer clear of the area on account of missile firing during the scheduled period.
Good to see the preparedness.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

the club so far is 4 - France missed above, and 5-UK if you include bartania's purchased deterrence albeit under american control in scotland.

a full payload weight test indicates the eventual role of the missile is MIRV, else we could just use a 350kg dummy warhead and splash the other side of antarctica near chile.

imo we should use a SLBM type ogival nose , wrap the MIRV payload around a extended 'core' third stage and use aeroplate/aerospike to deal with the drag penalty just as all good SLBMs do. no reason why same concept cannot be used on land. might make the A5 a little shorter and nimbler....assuming we are using a DF31 type towed trailer with separate cab and not the super beastly TopolM Maz 7x7 where the missile kind of occupies half the cab area as well to save on length.

right now it will be a unwieldy 60ft + cab in length...almost like the trucks that carry windmill blades on NHAI... :((
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Altair »

silly question onlee :mrgreen:
Why cant we buy TELs for A5 from China onlee? I am sure they would be cheaper!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Altair wrote:silly question onlee :mrgreen:
Why cant we buy TELs for A5 from China onlee? I am sure they would be cheaper!
So that they put some GPS or any transmitter as part of the electronics etc, make them unreliable and pron to breakdown with major spare parts with them, so we need to keep begging them to make sure that our deterrence against them works, require us to sign equivalent of Massa documents so that they can inspect them at short notice etc... NO THANKS
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by adityadange »

Altair wrote:silly question onlee :mrgreen:
Why cant we buy TELs for A5 from China onlee? I am sure they would be cheaper!
maybe they will supply use and throw type TELAR. that too no guarantee stuff :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

The magic number for road mobile missiles will be 40 ft x 2 meters. Will fit into a standard 45 feet container. 20 meters long is too unwieldy..
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Yogi_G »

Aditya_V wrote:
Altair wrote:silly question onlee :mrgreen:
Why cant we buy TELs for A5 from China onlee? I am sure they would be cheaper!
So that they put some GPS or any transmitter as part of the electronics etc, make them unreliable and pron to breakdown with major spare parts with them, so we need to keep begging them to make sure that our deterrence against them works, require us to sign equivalent of Massa documents so that they can inspect them at short notice etc... NO THANKS
The pakistanis tried that, unfortunately due to improper reverse-engineering tech in the TELAR, the missile went backwards instead of forward. Fortunately since the missile tech was also from China, the warhead dint explode due to reverse engineering issues. But the saying "Shooting one's own foot" was added to "Iman" in the verbiage of mottos of all Pakistani defence forces from that day onwards.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

well I dont think the DF31 type china missiles have the X-country TELAR, their smaller ones do like the DF21 / DF15 and the pakis have some of it.

DF31: http://www.coldwar.org/bcmt/images/imag ... -31_lg.jpg
DF21: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0SOCGRWJHdU/T ... 3large.jpg
DF15: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/theater/DF-15-6.jpg

so they are kind of in same boat as us their DF31 while being in cansister is as long and awkward as the Agni on a semi-trailer type arrangement.

in contrast take a look at the kind of TELARs the USSR had from the 60s .... even their trucks can go through really rough terrain and the TELARS have giant wheels, all steerable wheels, low ground pressure....pretty much go anywhere in the world incl deep mud, rocks and snow.
http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/03 ... riers.html

we might consider importing some of these to reduce the length of the A5 system by atleast 6m as the cansister can extend a little even beyond the front bumper.

another option is go the Midgetman way 13m long, but that delivers a puny payload so of no use to us.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Gaur »

Modified versions of Nag missile carrier to be tested soon.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ind ... 299823.ece

Most interesting bit:
Two totally modified versions, built by private sector L&T and public sector BEL will be put through trials in June-July
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by BrijeshB »

Singha wrote:well I dont think the DF31 type china missiles have the X-country TELAR, their smaller ones do like the DF21 / DF15 and the pakis have some of it.

DF31: http://www.coldwar.org/bcmt/images/imag ... -31_lg.jpg
DF21: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0SOCGRWJHdU/T ... 3large.jpg
DF15: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/theater/DF-15-6.jpg

so they are kind of in same boat as us their DF31 while being in cansister is as long and awkward as the Agni on a semi-trailer type arrangement.

in contrast take a look at the kind of TELARs the USSR had from the 60s .... even their trucks can go through really rough terrain and the TELARS have giant wheels, all steerable wheels, low ground pressure....pretty much go anywhere in the world incl deep mud, rocks and snow.
http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/03 ... riers.html

we might consider importing some of these to reduce the length of the A5 system by atleast 6m as the cansister can extend a little even beyond the front bumper.

another option is go the Midgetman way 13m long, but that delivers a puny payload so of no use to us.

Singhaji, have India developed an indegenous TELAR technology and in use in any of our armed vehicles (TATRA being an imported technology) now?
else, Is this a very complex technology to adapt within a short span of time for us..?
Also Shall we expect our A-5 next week, with an indigenous X-country TELAR similar to that of TOPOL's; coz we have been on the development of canisterised A-5 from more than half a decade.. :oops:..?
Last edited by BrijeshB on 10 Apr 2012 19:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

you expect BEML to develop that topol-M style telar?

we need limited number of such vehicles. we can import in fully assembled shape from MAZ if the spares pipeline is good. these vehicles are unique - not even tatra has it because nobody else has a need for big road mobile launchers - US gave up on it after playing around, UK and France are totally sea based.

only china, russia and india are deploying ICBMs from land mobile also.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

I would like to first term our ICBM as India's Contribution to BMs. Unique, face all, No FUss system. Focus more on detection and launch capabilities, and begin long range and sky/sat based detection systems.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

pankajs wrote:
The indigenous Ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (RINS) and Micro Navigation System (MINGS) complementing each other in redundant mode have been successfully flown in guidance mode for the first time.
Excellent. Having our own high grade INS systems is very good news for all our missile and other programs (ATV, Arjun, LCA etc). In the recent Defexpo, these products were displayed along with some of their applications.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

miniaturization of these ring laser gyros can be very useful for other missile systems especially for petals
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

Exactly! it is the Micro Navigation System (MINGS) that is the big deal.

The indigenous Ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (RINS) has been there for sometime it seems. They have gone on to innovate a new navigation and guidance system. They could have called it RINS-NG or RINS-mkII or something similar but they have chosen to name it Micro Navigation System (MINGS). DRDO was not satisfied calling it a Mini Navigation System.

The above would indicate that it is a very compact package that would be as reliable as the indigenous Ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (RINS). If the cost is not too high, then this new package could power all our current and future missiles starting from Brahmos upwards.

Consider this news item from Hindu on Agni-IV's success.Indigenous technologies played a big role

Agni-IV had a lot of new stuff on it for DRDO to celebrate its success but in this article you can sense the euphoria was really for the MINGS system.

Disclaimer: I am not connected to the defense services nor with any of the defense research or production agencies. I do not have any chaiwalla or paanwalla sources. I am just an ordinary mujahid with an interest in defense related news so all the above is my reading of the news items on Agni-IV success
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Pankaj, also, the MINGS is a big deal because it can be employed on tactical missiles. Usually, earlier the DRDO employed SDINS (strap down INS) on its long range missiles with GPS update with probably a similar system in backup, or just a GPS system. For tactical missiles, they didn't have much of a choice bar explicit guidance from ground based transmitters - eg they could develop command guided systems but were limited to importing subsystems if they had to build their own self guiding missiles.

Now, they can use a combination of RLG-INS (primary) with MINGS (as backup) for strategic missiles or just the MINGS for tactical missiles (a few km to a few hundred km) which can use a combination of inertial (MINGS) for mid-course guidance along with datalink update and the sensor for terminal guidance.

Also, at Defexpo, DRDO displayed three seekers - one for its PAD & the other (with partner Datapatterns) for a land attack system, both of these RF ones while the Semiactive laser one above was for the CLGM. Sudarshan, the LGB uses a similar seeker. Subsystems are key to making these missiles quickly, in response to service requirements. With these breakthroughs in propulsion (eg dual pulse motor for LRSAM, high maneuverability motors for AAD etc), control + actuation systems - both hardware & software for many programs ( eg check out the motors for Astra's fins, the guidance for the AAD/PAD sort of bullet hits bullet missiles), structures (composites for Agni etc), guidance (RLG-INS, MINGS, these seekers), plus the advances in onboard computing (advanced OBCs for missiles such as the Astra, Prithvi), and finally, the land based sensors (a whole bunch of radars)...I do think we are fast approaching the critical point that we can churn out many products across multiple requirements.

The Prahar is an excellent example of how a product originally intended for BMD could be used as a SSM..or how we employed the AKASH C3I system, suitably customized along with the Prithvi FCS for the Brahmos variants.

The need of the hour is to give the IAF/IA/IN tons of smart munitions at reasonable cost. The Sudarshan success is yet another positive step. Hopefully with the Glonass agreement now signed, we can churn out many local-JDAM types as well.

Am fairly certain now that what we are seeing from DRDO is just a portion of what they must be working on. With a successful missile expert like Saraswat at the top, these programs would have surely got an impetus and the results will be evident over time. The good thing about the missile programs is that they "pull" a lot of other tech advances along with them - eg radars, metallurgy and sensors, which can then be employed by other programs whether it be ground based air defence (which can use tech in its radars), or the LCA (which can use the RLG-INS) and so forth.

Another program mentioned publicly, were smart missile launched munitions. Sort of like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense_and_Destroy_ARMor and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU-97_Sensor_Fuzed_Weapon.
The Nag's sensor was mentioned as a possible option for such a project.

Interestingly at Defexpo, the DRDO also displayed a lazer fuse for the Astra. Again - a subsystem which can be used for other programs as well.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by D Roy »

both the RLG-INS and the MINGS ( essentially a MEMS based magnetometer) can receive multi constellation updates i.e GPS + GLONASS + IRNSS (future) to remove accumulated errors.

the GLONASS agreement therefore has obvious implications.


Oh and by the way DF-31 Mod B / DF-41 has a russki type TEL.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

MINGS: GPS + MEMs gyros/accelerometers, nav system. Light weight, some resistance to jamming, very accurate. Improved performance over GPS alone. Useless if Satellite based navigation is denied to us.

RINS: Ring Laser Gyro based INS. Heavier than MINGS, immune to jamming, accuracy depends on time the vehicle is in flight.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Interesting, just checked. MEMS is: a MEMS-based miniaturised INS+GPS+GLONASS+Magnetometer System (MINGS) per DRDO (October 2011, Tech Focus) so does have INS functions and can function even with jamming only accuracy will be degraded.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

sudeepj wrote:MINGS: GPS + MEMs gyros/accelerometers, nav system. Light weight, some resistance to jamming, very accurate. Improved performance over GPS alone. Useless if Satellite based navigation is denied to us.

RINS: Ring Laser Gyro based INS. Heavier than MINGS, immune to jamming, accuracy depends on time the vehicle is in flight.
From the Hindu article posted previously.Indigenous technologies played a big role
V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, said, “The technologies proven in this mission will give us the necessary confidence to go in for the Agni-V launch [with a range of 5,000 km] in a couple of months.” The DRDO did not use any satellite during Agni-IV's flight. Agni-IV, earlier named Agni-II Prime, flew more than 3,000 km on Tuesday from the Wheeler Island, off the Odisha coast.
If the navigation packages were configured to ignore the GPS,etc signals, MINGS would not be able to provide backup if what you say is correct. From what DRDO claims, it seems that MINGS was tested to work in exactly that situation i.e without sat nav coverage.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

On Agni-V : TOIlet : 1st April
First test of nuclear missile Agni-V in a fortnight: DRDO chief
The three-stage Agni-V, with its advanced ring-laser gyros, composite rocket motors and highly accurate micro-navigation systems, comes close to the top American missiles in terms of technology, said Saraswat.
There you have the primary and the backup navigation and guidance pakages.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

MEMS based accelerometers and gyros (that I am aware of) available today have too much 'drift' to be useful over the long durations that are needed for 3500km/~15 minute flight range. What MEMS sensors can be useful for, is providing robustness against jamming over a shorter duration of time. RLGs are much more accurate, but also heavier.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

Wondering if GAGAN can do laser satellite communication. I am sure the khaans are way up there with this. This can prevent jammming too. of course, protecting the satellite is another aspect, and reducing the bandwidth, with LPI burst mode communication could correct signals with jamming.

Re/something on the lines of AESA:[German satellite TerraSAR-X and US satellite NFIRE] / though
Last edited by SaiK on 11 Apr 2012 03:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Sudeep
True. That's why they are in the back-up device to the more accurate RLG, with Glonass update possible. Doubtful any device can jam an ICBM from receiving Glonass update?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

An ICBM is yet to be launched in anger. For a weapon invented 40 years or so ago, thats an impressive record. If it comes to ICBMs being launched in anger, its almost a given that Satellite Navigation systems will also be attacked (regardless of any treaties), or access to those signals can be selectively denied over theaters and regions based on the then interests of the nations that control that SatNav system.

It will be a blunder for your doomsday capability to rest on technologies and platforms that you dont fully control. Without a common war fighting treaty, without common identified enemies and friends, without common interests, and without a symmetry in the relationship that goes beyond "Ill buy your weapons" - how can you rest your most critical, most potent weapon on RF that another country transmits? You can buy yourself some warm fuzzy feeling by saying, OK - Ill rely on both GPS and Glonass.. both cant be denied at the same time.. right? going further along the same logic, even China is launching a SatNav constellation, called Compass/Beidou. They have even launched a few Satellites, they are further along than Galileo. Why not integrate Beidou RF into MINGs? Its laughable...

IMO, for strategic weapons, there is no alternative to high accuracy INS systems, (which Angi 4 has, with its RLGs). Everything else, you will achieve 40 meters accuracy in tests, but who knows how much when its really needed.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

as I mentioned earlier, khan has used GPS in icbm tests but does not rely on it in a real war. they have dual INS and star sensor pkg and thats it.
star sensor pkg probably got its first breakthrough for deep space probes. we need to implement it if not already...said to correct minor drift in the INS.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by sudeepj »

ms Pulsars can be used for navigation.. but I am not sure if the electronics for these can be shrunk to small size required. At least, no one will have the technology to take those down with out alien deathstars :-D


http://www.sbir.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstracts ... -9013.html
The primary non-NASA XNAV applications would be to provide primary or secondary navigation services for DoD missions. For MEO, GEO, HEO, and even cis-lunar missions where GPS has limited availability, XNAV can provide primary autonomous navigation capability. In addition, XNAV could provide an essential backup navigation capability for missions which normally rely on GPS but have a need for continuity of operations in the event of loss or denial of GPS. These applications are being actively studied through DARPA's XNAV program, and the Microcosm team has strong ties to that program.
SaiK
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

lock on (infrared) before launch sounds very interesting.. it would be really interesting to find infra jammers for 7km range walas. is there one?
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