Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 2012

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by SSridhar »

Satya_anveshi wrote:TFT Nuggets
ISI chief to go in March
Daily Nawa-e-Waqt reported that ISI chief General Pasha was expected to finish his second tenure in office on 18 March 2012 and will go home. Major general Naushad and corps commander Peshawar General Khalid Rabbani were being considered for the ISI top job.
The Great Khan is developing expensive tastes. We hear he has taken to jetting about in private or chartered aircraft, within the country and abroad too. Some of this transport is provided by his richy-rich supporters, the rest is chartered by the party which is flush with funds, rumour has it. Wags are saying he was flown out on a private jet from Dubai to Davos . . .
As we discussed here recently on the Pasha issue.

Imran Khan is getting funds not only from richy-rich supporters but also from the super-rich ISI.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by svinayak »

They need a long term poster boy who will take care of their interest.
THey somebody to make friends and take care of the country and its needs
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

Virupaksha wrote: You or I can hate two people irrespective of the love/hate relationship between them. and we can love as well. All of the married do love both their mother and wife, right :P

Read further only if you dont want to invoke the "Goldwin's law". I couldnt immediately think of a better example.
If one hates Hitler and Stalin, but since Stalin hates Hitler - it doesnt follow your equality or friendship hypothesis.
Yes, but if I use Stalin's hate of Hitler to support my argument that Hitler is bad, I am endorsing Stalins viewpoint as right without any qualification. I can then be accused of being a Stalin supporter/chamcha after which I will have to make all those complex counter arguments that you have made to try and wriggle free. For the accuser it is simple. You endorse Stalin. You are a Stalin supporter. You endoose Saeed's view. You are a Saeed Hafeez supporter.

Now I know damn well that no BRFite actually support Hafeez Saeed. So that was an incredibly stupid self goal of a statement. That is all that I said.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by Aditya_V »

MSA went for pappi Jhappi and the moderate Pakis tried to turn Hafiz Saeed on him. So looks in spite of all overtures pakis will behave only Hafiz Saeed. Moral of story.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

Aditya_V wrote:
So there is no self goal - the Answer is both are wrong, But Hafiz Saeed is Criminal who represents Paki Army and MSA was wrong in thinking that Paki Rape would treat him kindly.
Aditya V - if you are able to say that Aiyer is wrong by yourself, why do you require to say that Aiyer is wrong because even Saeed says so? That is a straight self goal. Saeed may dislike MSA. But he dislikes you too. His dislike of MSA means nothing. It does not add to your argument that MSA is wrong which you conclude by yourself, and do not require "proof" of Saeed's dislike of MSA
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by Aditya_V »

I never said MSA is wrong because Saeed said so? All I am saying is that even though MSA tried his best to reach out to Pakis by Bashing Fellow Indians, Pakis have behaved like Hafiz Saeed did. so all this reaching out to Pakis is useless.

So Pakis Hate MSA, Pakis Hate Me, Pakis Hate all Indians. MSA is wrong because there is no consituency for peace in Pak, thats not because of mass murderer who inspires uneducated men in his country to kill innocent men, women and children does not like him.

MSA comparison of Hafiz Saeed with Indian citizens needs to be condemned.

What the Pakis did to MSA was like USA inviting Taliban for peace talks and turning the Taliban representatives to the KuKlux clan. It was a stab in the back.

Contrast this with the paapi Jhappi visiting Pakis receive on NDTV.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by Virupaksha »

Shiv,

if tomorrow, Hafiz said sun rises in the east and I also say the same. Does it mean he is my supporter or is he my supporter. See, I am all confused onlee here.

"MSA is wrong because Saeed says so." statement is unfortunately your construct alone. Negi had written to which your interpretation/corollary was the above.
^One Hafeez Saeed is not our problem it's hundreds of thousands of others who condone his acts whom MSA wants to befriend is our problem. MSA dislikes Saeed because latter punctures the hot fart balloon which MSA was merrily inflating on the talk show about Indo-Pak bhaichara.
As I said the above statement is a reiteration of "rapist being caught because of the murderer" and so rapist hates murderer. The MSA proposed Aman ki Tamasha being caught naked because of the popularity of Saeed and that being the reason of the "dislike". Anyway the above Negi's statement doesnt use Saeed as a prop against MSA.

Now if your questions were why so much hatred against WKK or are you saying that the hatred between them is ONLY because of the above. those are different questions or even why I chose to use the anology of rapist with MSA and even you went along it. mum is the word from my side for those :oops:
Last edited by Virupaksha on 03 Feb 2012 15:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

Sanku wrote:
shiv wrote: Does that mean Saeed == patriotic Indians? ?
I will take a different track. You are correct. :P

Saeed == Patriotic Indians. Since they in different ways do the best for Indian inetrests overall.
Saeed as "patriotic Pakistani" is exactly what the Urdu press and Pakistan TV and Pakistan army are saying, and they hold up Saeed/LeT as being the Pakistani equivalent of Hindutvadis and RSS. Saeed exists in Pakistan because RSS exists in India.

Are you saying that this equivalence is correct? That both these groups are doing the best for their country. Saeed==Patriotic Indians?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by Aditya_V »

Shiv- I would put it this

Extreme Evil Opposite Extreme Good
Saeed Opposite Patriotic Indians.

All they agree is the Pakis don't want peace with India and will feel grudge until entire India is Islamized. So far MSA to do Saeed = Indians who do not agree with him is condemnable.
Last edited by Aditya_V on 03 Feb 2012 15:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

Virupaksha wrote:
if tomorrow, Hafiz said sun rises in the east and I also say the same. Does it mean he is my supporter or is he my supporter. See, I am all confused onlee here.
If you say "Sun rises in the East, Hafiz Saeed also says so" I will certainly wonder why you need Hafiz's endorsement of that fact. If you think MSA is bad, why would you need to quote Hafeez Saeed's reference to prove your point. That is that was done.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

Aditya_V wrote:I never said MSA is wrong because Saeed said so?
You didn't? But this discussion started because it was pointed out that Hafiz Saeed understands and recognizes that Mani Shankar Aiyer talks rubbish. Why is Hafeez Saeed's reference required to say that MSA is bad/silly/unpatriotic?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by Virupaksha »

shiv wrote:
Virupaksha wrote:
if tomorrow, Hafiz said sun rises in the east and I also say the same. Does it mean he is my supporter or is he my supporter. See, I am all confused onlee here.
If you say "Sun rises in the East, Hafiz Saeed also says so" I will certainly wonder why you need Hafiz's endorsement of that fact. If you think MSA is bad, why would you need to quote Hafeez Saeed's reference to prove your point. That is that was done.
The question still remains who apart from you is saying that and even if some one said that, it becomes a rich material for the inferiority dhaaga and not here.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by Aditya_V »

shiv wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:I never said MSA is wrong because Saeed said so?
You didn't? But this discussion started because it was pointed out that Hafiz Saeed understands and recognizes that Mani Shankar Aiyer talks rubbish. Why is Hafeez Saeed's reference required to say that MSA is bad/silly/unpatriotic?
If thats the case I am sorry I think there has been some misunderstanding somewhere.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

Aditya_V wrote:Shiv- I would put it this

Extreme Evil Opposite Extreme Good
Saeed Opposite Patriotic Indians.

That may be so. But the statement was Saeed opposite Mani Shankar Aiyer. Does that make MSA patriotic?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by Aditya_V »

Well compared to Saeed, MSA is a Human and not a monster.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

Virupaksha wrote:
shiv wrote:
If you say "Sun rises in the East, Hafiz Saeed also says so" I will certainly wonder why you need Hafiz's endorsement of that fact. If you think MSA is bad, why would you need to quote Hafeez Saeed's reference to prove your point. That is that was done.
The question still remains who apart from you is saying that and even if some one said that, it becomes a rich material for the inferiority dhaaga and not here.
:D Boss I am saying it. That is obvious. "Who apart from me" is for you to figure out if that is the information you seek. I don't give a rat's ass whether anyone else is saying it or not. I don't require anyone's endorsement to say what I think. If I felt that MSA was a fart, I would say it alone and openly without saying "Look Hafeez Saeed recognizes MSA as a fart"

If you think MSA blows hot farts, you can say so yourself. Why would you need to back up that statement by saying "Hafeez Saeed recognizes that" like "Allah also recognizes the fact that MSA is a fart" How does the reference to Hafeez saeed help your case that MSA is blowing hot farts?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by CRamS »

Aditya_V wrote:
Thats the problem with India WKK Sikulars, they think by pandering to the Rape's and Paki Fundoos they will be immune to attacks. The problem is for Pakis there is the unfinished agenda of Killing many Indians and raising Green Jhanda on India Gate.

MSA was wrong to Travel to Pak and Address Paki Ar**Ho*** as normal Humans
Come on man, lets not be useless argumentative SDREs (and I don't mean you). There is nothing redeemable with the likes of MSA debating a pigLeT or even that RAPE host, and in general, current Indian policy towards TSP. Its abject surrender and cowardice.Nothing more to it. One needs DoCJi's elaborate piskological skills to spin this into some kind of Chanakyan brilliance, or even the gall to suggest that India's surrender with US toying with TSP are equivalent. An aspiring "super power" so brutally tormented by a 2-bit terrorist abomination, and we have our political elites like MSA going one on one with terrorist, and we on BR do some bean counting and nit-pick on how MSA came out ahead or there is a Chanakyan motive? Give me a f$%^ing break.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

This article, from today's Hindu, is a keeper. Posting in full
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 854401.ece
Syed Salahuddin, supreme commander of Hizbul Mujahideen (HM), reaffirmed his organisation's “healthiness” last Tuesday, telling Kashmir News Service that HM's “infrastructure is intact” and that “J&K will be freed soon.” He made a similarly convincing statement last May, claiming to possess “hundreds of training camps” where he could freely “recruit and train the mujahideen.” Salahuddin knows that his group's strength must be seen before it can be disbelieved. So long as Pakistan's evolving terror apparatus remains shrouded in secrecy, he is at liberty to exaggerate HM's muscle.

Camps and questions

Though press conferences, political speeches, news articles, and reports routinely contribute to the entity's mainstream familiarity, they stop short of demystifying the terrorist camp. Important questions persist: Where are such camps located? What do they look like? What are their specific functions? Do similar levels of secrecy characterise them all? Based on interviews I conducted in Jammu and Kashmir in 2011 with law enforcement officials and surrendered HM militants about the training camps operated by HM in Pakistan and Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (all interviews with surrendered militants were conducted in the presence of the authorities), I believe it is possible to lend some definition to an otherwise nebulous entity.

At its peak in the mid- to late-1990s, HM's physical infrastructure was primarily concentrated in PoK, with a few camps and offices located in Punjab, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (then the North-West Frontier Province), and Islamabad. While the experiences of individual militants vary significantly, any recruit who spent more than a few months in Pakistan would likely encounter several such facilities. After crossing the border into Pakistani territory, often with the help of a guide on the Inter-Services Intelligence's (ISI) payroll, recruits were typically housed in an HM office in Kotli or Muzaffarabad. Since both towns hosted ISI offices, it was easy for newcomers to acquaint themselves with their patron representatives. Once these preliminary introductions were complete, recruits were sent to one of a few possible locations depending on the functions they were to assume, and the specific type of training they required.

While the media tends to homogenise terrorist camps, the latter in fact represent a diverse collection of administrative and liaison offices, communication stations, base camps, and training camps. The larger constellation of a particular group's terrorist camps is thus characterised by diversity of location, function, size, appearance, secrecy and demography.

A small core

HM's infrastructural network is best depicted by a small core of training camps, attended to by a larger landscape of base camps and support offices. Training camps are intended and designed to impart physical, ideological, and military training — stereotypical imagery of young men surrounded by monkey bars and AK-47s is not far off. Base camps, on the other hand, simply serve to house militants before, between, or after such training courses. Generally speaking, training camps tend to be larger, and more removed from urban environments.

Examples of former training camps include the Kotli Training Camp (in PoK's Kotli district) and the Gujar Khan Training Centre in Rawalpindi. Each camp was located in hilly, forested terrain, accommodating over 300 trainees in tents. In addition to these conventional training camps, HM also made use of the Mangla Dam Camp. Located on the banks of the Mangla Lake in PoK, this camp was reserved for 30-40 trained militants, offering them swimming lessons that lasted 15 days to a month.

HM's base camps generally took the form of single-storey rented buildings providing six to eight bedrooms for 35 to 70 trained or untrained militants. Former examples include: Kot Jamial Camp (located on the outskirts of Kot Jamial in PoK's Bhimber district), Bhimber Camp (situated on Gujrat Road in PoK's town of Bhimber), Samani Camp (located on Mirpur Road, two kilometres from the main bus stand in PoK's Samani), the Kotli Camp (located less than a kilometre from the main bus stand in PoK's Kotli), and Al Markaz Camp (located in the basement of a mosque, three kilometres from central Mirpur).

In addition to its training and base camps, HM established a media office on Rawalpindi's Murree Road, not far from the branch office of the Jang Group of Newspapers. In Islamabad, apart from its administrative office in the Khanna neighbourhood, HM previously used one office to store photographs and computerised biographies of all its militants, and another to administer computer courses.

Communication with India

In order to maintain regular contact with active operatives on the Indian side of the border (or LoC), HM also established wireless command stations, including those in Zafarwal (Punjab) and Samani (PoK). The facility in Zafarwal was run out of the staff quarters of a rural health centre, allowing HM wireless operators to communicate with militants in Jammu and Kashmir's Doda and Kathua districts, and in parts of Udhampur district. The second facility was situated on the outskirts of Samani, providing communication links with militants operating in Jammu and Kashmir's districts of Rajouri and Poonch, and parts of Udhampur district.

While HM might be impartial towards all the facilities it uses, its ISI patrons are more discerning. Amongst the multitude of installations that HM militants come into contact with in the course of their careers, some are marked by more secrecy than others. In general, surrendered militants tend to recall quite vividly the names and attributes of the camps they encounter. But often there is a stop on the itinerary about which they know surprisingly little. They call it ilaqa-e-ghair (which most appropriately translates in this context to “forbidden territory”). Ilaqa-e-ghair refers to a peculiar type of training camp. In fact, the only defining characteristic of ilaqa-e-ghair is that the journey to and from this camp is always unusual: trainees are transported to the facility blindfolded, or in tarpaulin-covered trucks, to ensure they don't pick up on their destination's location and surroundings. The destination itself typically constitutes an isolated training camp surrounded only by “kachcha” road and round-the-clock patrolling. By the end of a two- to three-month stint at ilaqa-e-ghair, trainees are adept at handling weapons including AK-47s, RPG-7s, hand grenades, and light machine guns.

A possible explanation for these elevated standards of secrecy might be that ilaqa-e-ghair directly represents, or is sufficiently proximate to, military installations about which the ISI prefers not to divulge any details – neither to the HM militant, nor to the people he might speak with following disengagement. An important implication of this relative secrecy is that all other assets used by HM to train and host its militants are more easily replaced, and hence dispensable. Indeed, the Boi Camp in Abbottabad attests to the non-essential character of most terrorist camps. It accommodated more than 300 HM militants until 2008, was abruptly shut down, and has since served as a poultry farm.

Continuously mounting international pressure since 9/11 has compelled the ISI to reign in many terrorist camps under its watch. As a consequence, HM's infrastructural presence in Pakistan and PoK stands diminished. Aside from its peripheral offices, the organisation currently runs two training camps, each targeting a distinct demographic. The Garhi Habibullah Camp is located in Mansehra district of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and caters to trainees from Pakistan. The Sensa Camp lies in PoK's Kotli district and is geared towards youth from PoK. Both camps have strict orders: recruits from India's side of the border are unwelcome — at least for the time being.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by member_22539 »

shiv wrote: :D Boss I am saying it. That is obvious. "Who apart from me" is for you to figure out if that is the information you seek. I don't give a rat's ass whether anyone else is saying it or not. I don't require anyone's endorsement to say what I think. If I felt that MSA was a fart, I would say it alone and openly without saying "Look Hafeez Saeed recognizes MSA as a fart"

If you think MSA blows hot farts, you can say so yourself. Why would you need to back up that statement by saying "Hafeez Saeed recognizes that" like "Allah also recognizes the fact that MSA is a fart" How does the reference to Hafeez saeed help your case that MSA is blowing hot farts?

What Mr. Shiv is saying is that one shouldn't use the words of a Greater enemy to buttress ones argument against a lesser enemy. I see the wisdom in this. But what about using everything you can against your enemy (in this case the lesser enemy/MSA). Are we to abandon something like this because its just not worth the cost (seeming to agree with Hafeez saeed ) and should we disagree with the Greater enemy no matter what?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

India is a country that is internally "fragmented" at least with regard to opinions. People hold opinions of various shades. This is true of the US as well, I am told by US citizens and admirers who talk to me. Differences of opinion are apparently possible, even allowed in the US. Remarkable freedom.

How about Pakistan? Are Pakistanis all united by one single opinion? Does everyone agree with everyone else?

I am told that everyone in Pakistan agrees with everyone else in opposing India. Not single dissident. Someone must have gone and polled every single Paki and knows this for a fact. Every single Paki is anti India. This is a remarkable statistic, considering that the "uniting factor" of Pakistan - Islam, does not unite everyone. Muslims are at each others throats. Ethnic minorities in Pakistan are at each others throats. The rich and the poor are at each others throats. But when it comes to India all Pakistanis are united. 7200%.

The figure troubles me and even if I amend it mentally from 7200% to 100% to fit my personal biases and rudimentary math ability. It troubles me. Nowhere else in the world have I heard of 100% of all people being 100% in agreement about something with absolutely no difference of opinion. But in Pakistan - all 180 million Pakistanis are anti-India.

Or are they? I mean are Pakistani Hindus 100% anti-India? I doubt it. What about Christians and Sikhs in Pakistan? All anti-India? Baluchis, Sindhis, Pashtuns? People of Balwaristan? All anti-India? Unlikely. There is a small but unknown percentage of Pakistanis who are not anti-India.

If all Pakistanis are not anti India, then it would not be accurate for us to say "All Pakistanis are anti India". If this mysterious subversive element exists, would it make sense to pander to that element, or would it be better to dismiss all Pakistanis as anti India. The anti India Pakistanis of course want nothing to do with India. So should we be the patriotic "equal and opposite" anti-Pakistan element and oppose all connections with Pakistan. Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of that choice. Like I said, Indians are allowed to have differences in opinion. That freedom exists in India, faulty as it may be compared with the massive, really free freedoms of the US. And some Indians believe that there are some Pakistanis who are not anti-India and that those Pakistanis can be befriended. If those Indians who believe that Pakistanis can be befriended seek out people in Pakistan to befriend, what is anyone going to do about it?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

CRamS wrote: "super power" so brutally tormented by a 2-bit terrorist abomination, and we have our political elites like MSA going one on one with terrorist,
Ah thanks for the reminder! :D . Superpower going one on one with terrorists reminds me of some news

Taliban-U.S. peace talks look more likely; military worried
The Obama administration is moving ahead with plans for negotiating with the Taliban, confident that talks offer the best chance to end the 10-year-old war in Afghanistan. But the military worries things are moving too fast, and intelligence agencies offered a gloomy prognosis in their latest Afghanistan report.
In more recent news, from 5 days ago
US starts negotiations with Taliban

Published: 29 January, 2012, 14:55
Qatar is hosting a pilot round of negotiations between US officials and Taliban representatives, to discuss steps to put an end to the war in Afghanistan, the New York Times reports.

­Unnamed former Taliban officials said that among other issues, the parties would discuss POW transfer from Guantanamo to Qatar.

Kabul expects a delegation from Qatar to visit the Afghan capital to clarify its position in the talks, said High Peace Council Secretary Aminundin Muzaffari.

A delegation of eight Taliban delegates has traveled to Qatar via Pakistan. They are expected to set up a permanent office of the Taliban in Qatar.

The Taliban has not yet provided official comments on the talks, while US officials have not denied the talks are taking place.

The New York Times points out that such talks would be impossible without at least the silent approval of Pakistan.( :rotfl: ) This, in turn, could possibly mean that the discord in American-Pakistani relations caused by recent US strikes on Pakistan’s territory, has softened.
One small step for a President. One long way downhill for a superpower
Last edited by shiv on 03 Feb 2012 19:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by rajanb »

^^^ Shiv, having spoken to a good friend who lived in Pakistan a few years back and has since migrated to the US of A for obvious reasons, the display of any pro-indian sentiment, by a lay person can lead to quadrification. Also, those powerful personae who can speak well of India in public, a majority of them (not all) do deride us in private.

So a tough situ. Where that small minority whom we can appeal to, are and prefer to remain unknown. But there is a minority. Who accept the need to keep quiet.

I dare guess that a majority of that minority would be found amongst the Baluchis.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by rajanb »

CRamS: What can I say but :rotfl:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by negi »

shiv wrote: if I am accused of "twisting words" could someone please untwist them and explain how I am wrong?
:mrgreen: Shiv ji I am not playing that game, seriously it's a slippery slope. :P

On a serious note Saeed said what he was expected to say and MSA too as usual stuck to his usual tactics i.e. high on potent stuff, he is as disillusioned as Nehru (being a Nehru bhakt and all that) with no facts to back his view points he merely jumps on to any Indo-TSP bhaichara talk because of the huge baggage he carries. I consider everyone like him who is in our policy making circles to be responsible for blasts masterminded by likes of Saaed i.e. they only ask for arrest of Saeed and why ? Because their culpability is established , what about the whole fckn apparatus in TSP which has been working cohesively towards the same end goal as likes of Saeed (in fact latter is just a small pawn in that game) ? There they just fumble for words talk about common abdul on either side of the border and propagate lousy stuff like people to people contact. It's no wonder that our foreign policy with regards to TSP has been a complete joke; things will be a lot better when this whole generation of jacka$$es romanticising about the old days when India and TSP were a same country will no longer be around in the policy making circles.
Last edited by negi on 03 Feb 2012 19:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

rajanb wrote:^^^ Shiv, having spoken to a good friend who lived in Pakistan a few years back and has since migrated to the US of A for obvious reasons, the display of any pro-indian sentiment, by a lay person can lead to quadrification. Also, those powerful personae who can speak well of India in public, a majority of them (not all) do deride us in private.

So a tough situ. Where that small minority whom we can appeal to, are and prefer to remain unknown. But there is a minority. Who accept the need to keep quiet.

I dare guess that a majority of that minority would be found amongst the Baluchis.
rajan, if you can speak to a Pakistani, he is elite. That means top 2%. The only Indians who can have any idea of sentiment/intentions among bottom 99% of Pakis is Intel agencies and diplomats. To some extent media who actually visit.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

negi wrote:India and it's foreign policy will be a lot better when this whole generation of jacka$$es romanticising about the old days when India and TSP were a same country will be part of a history.
Negi - I can understand this sentiment, but I see it as contrary to exerting eventual control over the subcontinent.

I can be accused of being pro MSA but accusations don;t bother me because I am perfectly capable of defending my own view on any subject and will change if I believe I am wrong. I would like to point out that I read MSA's 1994 book "Pakistan Papers" where he was the first person that I knew who said "Pakistanis see themselves as "Not India". I read the book around 1997 or 98. MSA knew Pakis even before BRF and even before most of us knew about what Pakis are like.

Have you read the book?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by negi »

^ Nope but then tell me how does it matter if he thinks that 'Pakistanis see themselves as "Not India"' I mean isn't that obvious ? What matters is where does he stand in a larger scheme of things even in that $hitty show, he said there are many like HS in India who do not want peace between the two countries ; I consider it as a highly irresponsible statement (actually originating from his anti Hindutva baggage) which can be only made by either a fool (which MSA is not) or someone with fckd up line of thought.
Last edited by negi on 03 Feb 2012 19:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

negi wrote:^ Nope but then tell me how does it matter if he thinks that 'Pakistanis see themselves as "Not India"' I mean isn't that obvious ?
Negi. It was never obvious to me until I read it. It is obvious after I read it. I mean there must be some people to whom this idea occurred "out of the blue" but I do not fall into that genre of intelligence. My knowledge of Pakistan is based purely on reading what others write and not on intuition.
he said there are many like HS in India who do not want peace between the two countries ; I consider it as a highly irresponsible statement
Is the statement wrong or untrue? Or are you using intuition?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by negi »

^ It's not intuiton, in fact incompatibility was the main 'ostensible' reason propagated by likes of Jinnah for formation of Pakistan. When a new country/state is carved out of an existing one it's obvious the newly formed state/country will try to find it's own identity and hence try to get out of the shadow of the latter.
Last edited by negi on 03 Feb 2012 19:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by negi »

shiv wrote: Is the statement wrong or untrue? Or are you using intuition?
It is FALSE; I would like to know at least one name of an Indian who can be categorized in same class as Hafeez Saeed.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

negi wrote:
shiv wrote: Is the statement wrong or untrue? Or are you using intuition?
It is FALSE; I would like to know at least one name of an Indian who can be categorized in same class as Hafeez Saeed.
Not the same class but here is some news from Karnataka recently. I am not one who habitually hangs my head in shame but sometimes completely brainless self goals make me feel like I should start and be like the rest of my countrymen. BJP rules Karnataka.

http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstyp ... sid=286949
Bijapur: A bandh call to protest the hoisting of a Pakistan national flag at Sindhagi recieved a good response, as schools, colleges, shops and various business establishments remained closed. As precautionary measure bus services across the region was also withdrawn.

The Pakistan national flag was hoisted yesterday on January 1, by some miscreants on the flag post at the mini Vidhana Soudha premises.

Bandh call was given demanding arrest of the culprits who were responsible for the action.

Later.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/216 ... d-pak.html
The police have taken into custody six youth alleged to have been responsible for hoisting the Pakistani flag in Sindagi, recently.

Superintendent of Police (SP) D C Rajappa told reporters here on Wednesday that the arrested youth were Sri Ram Sena activists. He said the special investigation team led by Deputy SP Mutturaj consisted of DCIB police inspector Siddheshwar, CPI Chidambar and PSI Babagowda Patil.

While on its job of collecting clues about the culprits responsible for the incident, the team got to know that a two wheeler was found parked in the premises of the tahasilar’s officer between 3:30 and 4 am on January 1.

The police traced the persons who had used the two wheeler on the day of the incident and interrogated them. During interrogation, they revealed that while returning from Bijapur after celebrating the New Year eve, they saw Anilkumar Solankar and Arun Waghmore behind the fence of the tahasildar office.

They appeared frightened on seeing these people. They told the youth that the police were around and they should go back home . They also revealed that both Anilkumar and Arun were without any footwear.

On the basis of information, the police team arrested Anilkumar on Wednesday at around 5 am. During interrogation he admitted that he and some others had hoisted the Pakistan flag on the Tahasildar’s office.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by pankajs »

18 militants killed, 7 soldiers martyred in Kurram Agency
At least 18 extremists were killed and seven security personnel martyred when armed militants attacked a security check post here in Kurram on Friday. The attackers also kidnapped five troops.
According to details, more than 30 militants stormed a security check post located in Shidano Dan area of Lower Kurram Agency near Pak Afghan border.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by rajanb »

pankajs wrote:18 militants killed, 7 soldiers martyred in Kurram Agency
At least 18 extremists were killed and seven security personnel martyred when armed militants attacked a security check post here in Kurram on Friday. The attackers also kidnapped five troops.
According to details, more than 30 militants stormed a security check post located in Shidano Dan area of Lower Kurram Agency near Pak Afghan border.
I know that this is extreme, but I was trying to find the percentage of fat in a pig on the net. I failed.

So, hypothetically if lean meat in a pig is 60% and fat is 40%

Then divide the official figure of 'martyrs" by 0.4 and multiply that by 72, you get approximately the # of actual houris required and the # of martyrs. Hain ji?

Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by SSridhar »

Nuclear-boast, Ludhiana Style
It no longer really matters that Pakistan had an A.Q. Khan or India was blessed with Homi Bhabha or A.P.J. Abdul Kalam to give shape to their ambitions. In any case they were no Oppenheimers with any notable point of departure other than to assemble an inventory of components by subterfuge or by misleading the world about their intentions. The truth is their job was more about arranging procurements than scientific innovation. {So, Xerox Khan is equal to Homi Bhabha and APJAK, according to this Paki}
The dangerous bluster should be firmly in the cross-hairs as the old Indian friend of Pakistan Mani Shankar Aiyar embarks on a unique mission to Islamabad this week.

The former consul general in Karachi is an outspoken critic of military arrogance that seems to hold sway right across the globe. He explained last week that he wants to start a modest Track II trialogue on global nuclear disarmament between India, Pakistan and China.

As head of the informal group on former prime minister Rajiv Gandhi’s 1988 action plan for a nuclear-free and non-violent world order, Aiyar begins with a little more credibility than many Indian interlocutors could be trusted with.

He was asked last week by India’s foreign ministry to initiate a debate across India and beyond on the Gandhi proposal.
In my view, any discussion about a world without nuclear weapons is better than no discussion at all.

I asked Aiyar in Delhi last week if India had become more secure after the 1998 Pokharan tests than it was in 1988 when Rajiv Gandhi laid stress on a world free of nuclear weapons. A member of his group answered the query. She claimed India was now more secure against a nuclear threat but remained vulnerable to terrorism. I think that position needs to change; the dangerous bluster needs to go.

Aiyar believes it may have been A.Q. Khan’s mysterious revelation to Indian journalist Kuldip Nayar in 1988 about Pakistan’s nuclear pursuit that mounted pressure on Rajiv Gandhi to listen to his military hawks.

Khan’s alleged nexus with India’s nuclear endeavour was in the news again this week. Joshua Pollack, a “researcher and [US] government consultant” told an event at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace that circumstantial evidence indicated India could be the mysterious “fourth customer” of the nuclear proliferation network managed for decades by Khan.

In India’s behalf it has to be said that the unverified claim comes when Washington is miffed with New Delhi for giving a multi-billion dollar contract for fighter jets to France in preference to US bids. In any case, by Ludhiana’s economical standards that is a lot of money wasted.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by shiv »

Pakistanis have more Indians reading their English articles than Pakis, which suits their pretensions of being India's conscience keepers. Pakistan is the Jiminy Cricket to India's Pinocchio. As I write more and more myself, I am able to detect a style of writing that writers use to fluff up articles with meaningless information and yet write to an agenda. This man is doing the equal equal thing. He is no different from the folks at defndumb. All Pakis who speak of India as the country that they, the members of teh separate Muslim electorate need to give moral lectures to from their exalted position.

If India and Indians have a fault - it is believing the the English speaking elite of India who read articles by Paki English speaking elite are the only two constituencies that matter. In fact these are the constituencies that matter the least. The mango man will decide what happens to India. Pakistan - I don't know. But that is an eminently ignorable article.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by rajanb »

shiv wrote:
rajanb wrote:^^^ Shiv, having spoken to a good friend who lived in Pakistan a few years back and has since migrated to the US of A for obvious reasons, the display of any pro-indian sentiment, by a lay person can lead to quadrification. Also, those powerful personae who can speak well of India in public, a majority of them (not all) do deride us in private.

So a tough situ. Where that small minority whom we can appeal to, are and prefer to remain unknown. But there is a minority. Who accept the need to keep quiet.

I dare guess that a majority of that minority would be found amongst the Baluchis.
rajan, if you can speak to a Pakistani, he is elite. That means top 2%. The only Indians who can have any idea of sentiment/intentions among bottom 99% of Pakis is Intel agencies and diplomats. To some extent media who actually visit.
Right on all counts Shiv. zipped lips :) hypothetically, I could have cross checked.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by rajanb »

Inriguing News

From Down.com
Posted in full
Large explosion hits Peshawar (54 minutes ago) Today
PESHAWAR: At least four people were killed and several injured as a large explosion hit Peshawar on Friday, DawnNews reported.

Several people were trapped underneath the rubble of a building destroyed by the heavy explosion, which jolted the neighbourhood located on Peshawar’s Ring Road.

So far, one of the injured had been freed from the debris and shifted to the hospital, while rescue workers and police personnel were busy helping recover the rest of the wounded.

According to Bashir Bilour, senior minister Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, at least 30 to 40 kilograms of explosive material had been used in the explosion. Several pieces of a missile were also found at the location, added Bilour.
Wassup? Was he smoking the best afghan? Or did Drona strike in Peshawar? :shock:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by Shaashtanga »

shiv wrote:This article, from today's Hindu, is a keeper. Posting in full
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 854401.ece
Good find Shiv saar.
Now i was wondering how many of us here have seen the documentary "jashn-e-azadi" by Sanjay Kak (link mentioned below).
I saw it in full yesterday when i saw another news about it that ABVP activists got its screening banned at Symbiosis. WKK & Bleeding heart liberals like Sanjay Kak (who may or may not be getting funding from ISI) tried to depict in the whole documentary that the 700k Indian army personnel is totally un-necessary now in Cashmere coz the threat of terrorism is non-existant. He was able to interview Yasin Malik and Hurri-rat Gilani (who say that even if india paves the roads of cashmere with gold bricks we it won't be enough to forget the shahdat of 100k terror-rats who were sent to their 72's by IA) but this idiot Sanjay cock forgot to interview this Salahuddin who is exposing his inner pakistaniyat. The jist i got fromm watching the whole documentary is that even these radicalised KM's want to live on the freebies provided by India but these Paki goons like Malik & Gilani are trying to instigate them otherwise, maybe the Indian gov't shud pay Malik & Gilani few millions rather then spend Billions for direct aid to KM's. The KM's shud be sent to live in Baluchistan where they will be handled with kid gloves by TSPA. This idiot Sanjay Kak is trying to do an equal equal between IA in Cashmere to PA in baluchistan. Shame on such WKK & bleeding heart liberals.

http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/ja ... te_freedom

Mods : Please move this post out of here , i just posted it in context of what Shivji posted.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by pankajs »

Bring Pakistan Army to book
The question of the jurisdiction of civilian courts over military matters is now firmly posed in the public imagination. In the last few years, hundreds of Baloch nationalists and alleged secessionists have 'disappeared' into the black hole of the military's various intelligence outfits.

Attempts by the Supreme Court to extract them from the clutches of the agencies have met with only limited success.

But the recent custodial deaths of four alleged terrorists facing court martial for attacks on the army has made front page news and compelled the SC and Peshawar High Court to take notice.

Part of the problem is related to the law of civilian jurisdiction and part of it has to do with the long-standing and unaccountable power of the military.

But the major political parties are now contesting the military's political outreach. So it is time to also argue for a relevant change in the law in order to facilitate the application of fundamental rights.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Post by pankajs »

Puppetry in Pak
By Shashi Tharoor
In my last column (of impressions from my recent Pakistan visit, Warmth in Pak, Jan. 20), I dwelt on the astonishing fact that there is no country in the world where an Indian is made to feel more welcome than in Pakistan. At the same time, the warmth and affection lavished on Indian guests cannot obscure real differences of strategic perceptions (and actual actions) between the two countries.

I recall hearing in the 1980s from then students of St Stephen’s College about a visit to Pakistan by a delegation of Stephanians as guests of the college’s famous alumnus, Gen. Zia-ul-Haq. They came back utterly won over by the general’s charm, hospitality and graciousness — but at that very time, Gen. Zia’s Pakistan was pumping weapons and support to anti-Indian militants and guiding them to infiltrate our territory.
So paradox is the paradigm defining Indo-Pak relations. Military rulers in Pakistan have launched wars, overtly and covertly, against India; they have also been our best partners for peace, as Gen. Zia himself and Gen. Musharraf (the architect of the Kargil War, after all) demonstrated. One general rule of thumb could be that the Pakistani military are usually hawks when they are not directly in power and doves when they have taken on the responsibilities of office. As Pakistani columnist Cyril Almeida observed to me, a general who is not in charge of the civilian government thinks and breathes military issues all day, whereas a general in charge of the government keeps meeting ambassadors and foreign ministers and discovers the need for statesmanship. There is also the undeniable reality that government responsibility includes the nation’s parlous finances, which preclude indulgence in too many military fantasies. You can launch a Kargil when some hapless civilian has to deal with its political and diplomatic consequences, not when you are carrying the can yourself.
This is an interesting view, but not entirely conclusive — after all, Gen. Ayub Khan launched the 1965 war and Gen. Yahya Khan the surprise strike of 1971, both when they were ruling as Presidents. But it’s worth thinking about as we look at the fascinating cross-currents in Pakistan’s domestic affairs today, which are, to say the least, fraught.
Consider the developments of the last few weeks: Pakistan’s highly effective ambassador in Washington, Hussain Haqqani, is forced to resign under military pressure for having allegedly inspired a memorandum to the US asking America to prevent a military coup in Islamabad. (One would think an ambassador has several more subtle ways of conveying the same message without asking a flaky businessman to write such a memo.) He is holed up in the Prime Minister’s house, telling the press he fears for his life if he leaves it. Meanwhile, the Leader of the Opposition takes the issue to the Supreme Court, which — instead of saying that such a matter is none of its business — institutes an unprecedented commission of inquiry to look into the matter, and demands statements from the Army and the government, as well as the alleged protagonists themselves. The Army more or less accuses the civilian government of treason; the Prime Minister criticises the Army for speaking out of turn and sacks the powerful defence secretary (a retired general who is the Army’s nominee). As the standoff escalates, the Supreme Court holds the Prime Minister in contempt for not having heeded its demands to write to the Swiss government to reopen corruption cases against its own President, which had earlier been spiked under the National Reconciliation Ordinance. Rumours of a military coup fill the air as the Prime Minister makes a conciliatory appearance before the Supreme Court and smokes the peace pipe with the generals. A popular former cricket captain, meanwhile, holds mass rallies around the country, reportedly with the military’s active support, clamouring for change, and assorted establishment figures abandon their political parties to flock to his side. You couldn’t make this stuff up if you tried.
For now, I am inclined to think that we are witnessing brinkmanship, not imminent military intervention. The military derives its immense power over the civilian government from the ever-present threat of a takeover, but there are four good reasons why it will hesitate to take the final step right now. First, memories of the popular agitation that unseated President Musharraf are still fresh; the Army tends to conduct its coups when disillusionment with civilian rule is so widespread that the generals are widely greeted as saviours. Right now it is far from clear that a coup would be welcomed by the public at large, as the previous ones were, and no general wants to come to power to deal with internal disturbances. Second, Pakistan’s problems of governance and public finance are so acute — with a collapsing economy, acute unemployment, declining foreign aid and a restive, predominantly young population — that it would suit the military to leave ownership of these problems in civilian hands, rather than assume direct responsibility for them. Third, tensions with the Pakistan military’s biggest benefactors of the last decade, the US, are at an all-time high; few believe the US is going to be pumping more billions into Rawalpindi GHQ, which means the Army is going to struggle to justify, even maintain, its absurdly high budget at a time of belt-tightening.
Fourth and finally, two newly-powerful institutions in Pakistan make a coup difficult to get away with. The judiciary, fresh from its reassertion of authority against Gen. Musharraf, has never been stronger; the Chief Justice has become a power in his own right, and can be counted upon not to acquiesce in anything he deems extra-constitutional. And then there’s the media. It’s no longer enough for a general to roll the tanks around to PTV to send a clear message to the nation; today there are a dozen raucous channels that have changed public discourse in Pakistan about politics, sometimes irresponsibly, but it will not be easy to silence them all. Whereas the print media has never been considered capable of moving the streets, TV can and does; it is perhaps the most significant constraint today on military adventurism.
This means the military is far likelier to want to assert itself behind an acceptable civilian leader untainted by the failures of the main political parties, inexperienced enough to take military direction and popular enough to be a credible national leader. That’s why we must watch out for Imran Khan.
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