Indian Army : News and Discussion

peter · Post by **peter** » 31 Mar 2012 07:38

Ghatotkacha wrote:I wonder if in our neighboring country similar pathetic situation were created for Chief of Army by likes Lalu and others with their slandering/baseless comments. What would have been done to those corrupt politicians?

Would those politicians be dragged in their sleep by a squad of loyal soldiers of COAS from their home and tied to a shallow wet ditch for 1-2 days where it is cold, no food/drinking-water and loud LMG/RPG fire is going through few inches above their head. (I can do an entire scenario on this.)

Thanks for the great laugh!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 07:44

Gaurav_S wrote:Bhai log, I have noob question here. I am following this whole drama since chief said he was offerred 14cr till today when CBI is roped in. Now questions are.

1) If someone offerred him bribe then why he can't give more details publicly? Like name of the person or status.

2) Fortunately, details like "army running out of ammo" etc was leaked during peace. Does this mean that such info "can" leak out during war time as well? Or is this some kind of trap to misguide?

3) IMO, from that video of "general ka court marshall" chief sounded RELUCTANT to persuade the matter further. If he is genuine then why not?

Some questions that has been spinning in my mind since this whole drama unfolded.

1) It is not provable. Even the tape, which is claimed is not appearing. The man who offers bribe is not likely to act in a manner that he will be traced. Hypothetically, what if TS would have been trying to trap him and might not be actual "Tatra" bribe? TS is a bitter enemy of VKS it seems. So, the Tatra bribe might not be actually a tatra bribe. They might even not know about it. Antony has made it clear that he has already put BEML and Tatra dealings under vigilance.

2) A war is such that it can throw out surprises. Leaks do matter, but, enemy will be vary of believing it and make plans on it. What if it is a rumor is deliberately floated?

3) The general made it clear that he had kept TS in sights and said that Army is a part of MoD, so any action taken by it is same as taken by MoD. very finely he defended his boss AKA.

You know, the confusion arises as some people have vested interest in attacking VKS and some people have same interest in attacking AKA.

Both VKS and AKA have made it clear that they are one organisation, they trust each other etc. VKS went one step ahead and said that he did it (interview) after TS tried to create a wedge between him and AKA in the signal taping case.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 31 Mar 2012 07:59

peter wrote: Can the victims go after lousy journalists? Is there a legal recourse to them? Because afterall a person's reputation is tarnished by journalists who lie through their teeth.

I think on a place like BRF, in which any incorrect information can be quickly countered, one should not use legal threats, in the interest of free-wheeling debate. A person posting incorrect information will lose credibility.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Mar 2012 08:01

peter please do not whine about Chacko Joseph. We are all in this forum because we care.

Thanks, ramana

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 31 Mar 2012 08:02

Lt. General Tejinder Singh in an exclusive interview to TIMES NOW

Tejinder Singh claims that COAS is being vindictive because he refused to go on TV debates defending Gen VKS on the age row controversy.

What's so special about Tejindier Singh, there are many retired army offices who have gone a step further and criticize Gen VKS on his decision to drag the govt. to court on TV debates every night? I don't see Army HQs blaming any of them in press releases.

Its time we maintain a list of must ridiculous allegations. (#1 on that list should be Sibbal's "zero loss" theory.)

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I also think that this debate on BRF has got vitiated by emotions running high. I've been an ardent supporter of COAS but we should not be name calling chaco ji or philip ji just because they don't share our view of Gen VKS and vice versa. We should instead focus on overwhelming them with evidence in the support of our argument.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 31 Mar 2012 08:08

There is an urgent need to file a PIL against the CBI and the GoI, asking for an independent investigation into the Dalbir Singh Suhag case. If this matter is allowed to slide we may get another chief of dubious integrity.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Mar 2012 08:12

Arun, As Voltaire said" I disagree with what he says but shall defend to death his right to say it!"

We need contra views for the truth is in the middle!

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 31 Mar 2012 08:13

+1 to Pranav ji's suggestion. Also, a lot will depend on how Lt. Gen Bikram Singh will pursue the cases started by Gen VKS. I hope he cracks down on corruption like his predecessor.

Ramana guru, you're right!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 08:35

Roperia wrote:I also think that this debate on BRF has got vitiated by emotions running high. I've been an ardent supporter of COAS but we should not be name calling chaco ji or philip ji just because they don't share our view of Gen VKS and vice versa. We should instead focus on overwhelming them with evidence in the support of our argument.

There was no evidence given, just personal attacks citing selective posts and ignoring the replies.

While I took a steady position that both are responsible for omission. If AKA silence is looting, then even VKS is also supporting the loot for keeping silent for 2 years. At the same time, I was very consistent that I will support both of them through their ups and downs as they are honest people and this omission does not amount to a major issue as there is an offer to bribe for a equipment which has not been purchased. AKA had already stopped a 197 helio purchase contract where vectra was involved, which is far - far bigger contract than Tatra. This shows that AKA has not been keeping quite. These posts are very much there which have been not edited by me, you can read it.

I was asked what VKS should have done, i suggested a remedy, which infuriated them even further.

Since yesterday, we know that AKA has already initiated action on BEML-TATRA deal and VKS has clarified that his intention was to expose TS and he has kept an eye on TS, they are not guilty of omission any more. More ever, unlike some people who were blaming AKA, even VKS has defended his boss.

So, logically I have reversed my position of blaming them for omission and am still maintaining that I will support then as they are honest people.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 31 Mar 2012 08:47

Defence ministry official, wife found dead at home

NEW DELHI: A deputy director in the defence ministry and his wife, a classical dancer, were found dead in mysterious circumstances at their home in Hudco Place, south Delhi, on Friday afternoon.

The body of Kumar Yashkar, 42, who had studied at the London School of Economics, was found charred near the kitchen while his wife, Archana Sharma, 34, had been strangled with a chunni in the bedroom of the flat. The deaths came to light around 1.45pm. Archana was a Bharatnatyam dancer who regularly performed on stage.

Cops said the house was found locked from inside and did not appear ransacked or looted. They hinted that the deaths could be the result of an altercation between the couple. But family sources said the two were extremely attached to each other and there had to be a "very strong provocation" leading to violence between them.

Blood, soot at murder site

Hours after a defence ministry official and his wife were found dead in their Hudco Place home, police are still scrambling for clues.

The body of Kumar Yashkar was found charred near the kitchen while his wife, Archana Sharma had been strangled with a chunni in the bedroom of the flat. Police said there were some signs of a scuffle and found injury marks on Archana's head. There were blood-spots near the kitchen and soot marks in the flat. A family member said Kumar's job at the Director General of Medical Services in Sena Bhawan, was of a sensitive nature and he never discussed work at home. According to the couple's relatives, none of them had ever seen the couple quarrelling.

Police officially declined to commit on the possible cause of the deaths for now. "We would only be able to ascertain further details after the autopsy and medical reports are released. The bodies have been preserved at AIIMS for postmortem which will be conducted on Saturday," said a senior police officer.

"When we reached the house, the front door was locked from inside so we used the side door of the balcony to enter. We have recorded the statements of family members and are exploring various possibilities. A case of murder against unknown persons has been registered," said P S Kushwaha, additional DCP (south).

According to police, the incident came to light when a refrigerator mechanic came to the couple's flat but no one answered the door. "The mechanic came to our flat enquiring about the couple. We rang the bell and even made calls to them which went unanswered," said a neighbour.

More neighbours gathered and tried to find out whether anyone was inside the flat. "When we called on their cellphone we could hear the ring from inside the house. We realized that something was wrong as there was a burning smell coming from near the exhaust fan and windows were spotted with soot," said Yashkar's next door neighbour.

The fire department received a call 1.35pm and two fire tenders were sent to the spot. In the next few minutes, police were informed as well. "We pulled the door from outside and the latch came off after a few minutes. We could spot one of the bodies from there," said a police officer.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 474601.cms

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Mar 2012 08:57

Roperia wrote:I also think that this debate on BRF has got vitiated by emotions running high. I've been an ardent supporter of COAS but we should not be name calling chaco ji or philip ji just because they don't share our view of Gen VKS and vice versa. We should instead focus on overwhelming them with evidence in the support of our argument.

If we don't fight with each other on this thread what is the use of calling it Army thread? Call it peace and kisses thread. Why has everyone simply cooled off? Become cowards or what? Pathetic!

peter · Post by **peter** » 31 Mar 2012 09:00

ramana wrote:peter please do not whine about Chacko Joseph. We are all in this forum because we care.

Thanks, ramana

Point taken. Though can we have people make false accusations against General VKS as Chacko did? He never apologised for the same. Is VKS an ordinary Indian whom anyone can write anything about just because their POV makes them do so?

peter · Post by **peter** » 31 Mar 2012 09:01

shiv wrote:
Roperia wrote:I also think that this debate on BRF has got vitiated by emotions running high. I've been an ardent supporter of COAS but we should not be name calling chaco ji or philip ji just because they don't share our view of Gen VKS and vice versa. We should instead focus on overwhelming them with evidence in the support of our argument.
If we don't fight with each other on this thread what is the use of calling it Army thread? Call it peace and kisses thread. Why has everyone simply cooled off? Become cowards or what? Pathetic!

Why don't you light a fire?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Mar 2012 09:09

The def minstry official's deaths could be unrelated.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 09:23

peter wrote:
ramana wrote:peter please do not whine about Chacko Joseph. We are all in this forum because we care.

Thanks, ramana
Point taken. Though can we have people make false accusations against General VKS as Chacko did? He never apologised for the same. Is VKS an ordinary Indian whom anyone can write anything about just because their POV makes them do so?

Peter has been using his arguments for defaming AKA. How can a honest defence minister go after a poster who is defaming him? Even after Army chief has backed AKA, peter refused an apology to defence minister. So his claims that he is pro Army chief is also in question as now he is not ready to apologize that he maligned an honest defence minister out of hearsay.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 09:29

"Records show that the vigilance wings of MoD and BEML are examining the matter and there are also correspondence between CBI and Chief Vigilance Officer of BEML on these allegations," as per the Defence Ministry statement

Another thing about "looting" for years.

There was no alternative to TATRA for India when it was purchased in 1980's. To this effect state-owned BEML chief V R S Natarajan is right when he says that "in the last 26 years, from 1986 onwards, BEML assembled manufactured, supplied 7,000 Tatra trucks. All of them have been done on single nomination basis, single inquiry basis.

"This type of equipment nobody in the world makes, because of its superior technological features. When I am the single vendor and there is no competition, there is no influence required," he said.

Peter should apologize for spreading false allegations against the defence minister.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 31 Mar 2012 09:43

Ghatotkacha wrote: Like everyone else, you too entitled to your own opinion.
But, don't you think you should be writing General VKS or Gen. VKS for short. Not, "Mr."

Sorry - you are correct. Gen VKS

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Mar 2012 09:44

Chacko It applies to you too. The scam is not on what BEML supplies but what the parts cost it before it supplies. So Natarajan is speaking half truth. Also DNA has a series of reports on Natarajan and his relatives and how they cornered the ancillary industry for the Tatra trucks.

So suggest cooling off. We all want to know the truth and not score points like children.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 09:53

@chackojoseph

Even in a single vendor case the cost has to be justified. I will not suggest that there were better alternatives. But there were comparable alternatives even in service with Indian Army and Air force, at the time of its initial selection. Those vehicles went with generic name KrAZ and some are in service with Air Force even today. I believe the KrAZ in Indian Army were strangulated and it coincides with rise of TATRA as a monopoly.

By any means, being a single vendor does not absolve the following

1. when TOT was promised as per initial agreements, even after 25 years BEML buys CKD and assembles the vehicles. more importantly when BEML was the single vendor it had virtual monopoly of orders from the defence forces.

2. as per procurement procedures there was supposed to be no middleman in the procurements. Tatra SIPOXY, UK is just that. Please see CBI FIR reports for details.

3. the difference between the ex-factory price and the sale price is huge. the extra money paid is by the public exchequer. bofors FH77B was a good gun, proved in Kargil. but kickbacks existed, same here.

4. the defence minister AKA is culpable of inaction and negligence. the TATRA scam has been existing for years, see my post quoting an unnamed Col above. if AKA was as honest as in the theory propounded here, he would have stopped the contract right in 2007 immediately after he became DM or in 2009. he need not have waited till a VKS came to do that.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 10:09

ramana wrote:Chacko It applies to you too. The scam is not on what BEML supplies but what the parts cost it before it supplies. So Natarajan is speaking half truth. Also DNA has a series of reports on Natarajan and his relatives and how they cornered the ancillary industry for the Tatra trucks.

So suggest cooling off. We all want to know the truth and not score points like children.

I have been keeping quite on Peter's accusation and have shown him that he is also guilty of what he alleges that I am guilty of. He says I am indoctrinated pro KA and I am saying he is indoctrinated against AKA.

Army chief says that BEML supplies 'sub standard' trucks. So, the scam includes what BEML supplies.

The costs part of 1.1 crore. First of all the Rs 1.1 crore has been consistently from 1986? Ural was established in India in 2008 and not before.

Since past few years (AKA's time), URAL and TATA are being slowly being brought into Army, which are capable of performing same tasks as TATRA. This is a transition taking place in just 4 years. So where is the problem?

secondly, BEML says that it indigenised 60%. Even if we take it with a pinch of salt and make it 50%, even then the probably bribe offer is in balance 50% of what is imported from TATRA.

The deal with TATRA and BEML does not decide the costs of what TATRA should be charging BEML based on the costs of TATRA to manufacture its share and profit basis. It is what TATRA and BEML has negotiated on the basis of market and or other factors.

About the TATRA(Sipox), if you search the internet, a good source will tell you that it acts as a subsidiary of TATRA and is incorporated as a LTD company in UK. This satisfies the Mou Conditions. The owner is a UK Citizen of Indian origin and not an NRI as claimed.

We still don't know if the 1.1 crore tag comes because TATRA is charging BEML high or if BEML as a PSU is inefficient in cost structure.

I am not suggesting that TATRA or BEML or the Owner is absolved. The matter of fact is that this investigation is only unfolding.

Peter has no right to tarnish the image of an Honest defence minister, which is an impression till date. Even opposition has not questioned his integrity. Army Chief has not questioned his integrity. Why is peter tarnishing Defence ministers integrity.

When I pointed out that If Defence minister is guilty of 100'sof crores scam, I countered this case VKS is also is guilty as he kept quite for 2 years. I said both are guilty of omission, but I still back the hinest people in their ups and downs. But, peter has decided that AKA is guilty and I have accused Army chief of corruption. Peter even claims that Army chief has not recourse to file a case in law to what I allegedly said (in peters perception), which is also wrong.

Later, it was found that both VKS and AKA have already taken action, hence I too back the guilty for omission comment, but Peter insists that I have not taken back the comment. He even fails to acknowledge that AKA is innocent and take back his comments.

Nothing is proven in this case and Peter has already tarnished defence Ministers reputation. he should apologize, as he is demanding of me (which he has twisted my comments and created an issue out of it).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Mar 2012 10:14

He hasnt tarnished AKA. We are too small to do that.

BTW similar logic was thrown at time of nuke deal and it led to a lot of bad blood. I will not stand for that.
People have a right to their opinions and the end truth will prevail.

So no need to make such claims.

Thanks, ramana

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 10:19

nelson wrote:@chackojoseph

Even in a single vendor case the cost has to be justified. I will not suggest that there were better alternatives. But there were comparable alternatives even in service with Indian Army and Air force, at the time of its initial selection. Those vehicles went with generic name KrAZ and some are in service with Air Force even today. I believe the KrAZ in Indian Army were strangulated and it coincides with rise of TATRA as a monopoly.

By any means, being a single vendor does not absolve the following

1. when TOT was promised as per initial agreements, even after 25 years BEML buys CKD and assembles the vehicles. more importantly when BEML was the single vendor it had virtual monopoly of orders from the defence forces.

2. as per procurement procedures there was supposed to be no middleman in the procurements. Tatra SIPOXY, UK is just that. Please see CBI FIR reports for details.

3. the difference between the ex-factory price and the sale price is huge. the extra money paid is by the public exchequer. bofors FH77B was a good gun, proved in Kargil. but kickbacks existed, same here.

4. the defence minister AKA is culpable of inaction and negligence. the TATRA scam has been existing for years, see my post quoting an unnamed Col above. if AKA was as honest as in the theory propounded here, he would have stopped the contract right in 2007 immediately after he became DM or in 2009. he need not have waited till a VKS came to do that.

Single Vendor costs has passed through the price negotiation committee which is not from MoD. it is ridiculous to give a reply that the price was arbitrary. Every new order sees an escalation in costs and goes through a price negotiation committee.

1) BEML's mistake. Even the OFB Bofors gun ToT was not gone through. No one asked is the reply. BEML says that it will require huge investment without Army commitment.

2) Show me CBI FIR reports. As far as I know, it is a UK based LTD company which states thatit acts as a TATRA subsidiary, which is a legit condition as far as MoU is concerned.

3) The ex factory price you mentioned is how much?

4) TATRA scam is "alleged" to exist and is being investigated since letter from 2009. AKA has ordered vigilance on the issue. Subsequently, the trucks have not been cleared. How is DM culpable?

VKS bribery came up because the truck sales were not moving.

If you believe KrAZ was strangulated, i have noted the point. However, how can I reply of your belief and words like strangulated? KrAZ was there? then how can you say that Tatra was selected with high cost if Tatra was offering higher price? There has to be some logic in this sales. as per wiki and

by 1961 the plant exported over 500 hundred vehicles in 26 countries of the world such as Argentina, Afghanistan, Bulgaria, China, India, Vietnam etc.

that is 19.5 truck to each country.

Added later:

Team BHP forum

Eight wheels and huge to say the least and generally used as a missile carrier.

Must have come with Russian missile purchases.

On tatra

Originally Posted by Rotorhead View Post
I believe the indian army had also purchased tatra trucks also if i am right.
Yes you are right,they are left hand drive,very good driver position,very comfortable cabin(for an army truck standards),quite an experience sitting in one,imagine what driving would be ,very tall, good ground clearance,the tyres are self-inflatable,air adjustable suspension on all tyres. They are a common sight carrying tanks on the highways near the border in Rajasthan.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 10:26

ramana wrote:He hasnt tarnished AKA. We are too small to do that.

BTW similar logic was thrown at time of nuke deal and it led to a lot of bad blood. I will not stand for that.
People have a right to their opinions and the end truth will prevail.

So no need to make such claims.

Thanks, ramana

If you see the immediate history of this thread, it is peter who has been accusing me. I even once told him that I find him having ulterior motives. Today, he made multiple posts which is visible and I showed him that he can also be accused of the same, using his logic.

In my opinion, he along with Jaybhatt and jarita (or harita or something like that) have been accusing me of being indoctrinated. All this makes no sense.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 11:17

@chackojoseph
BEML is not Pvt Ltd Co. It is aPSU and its boss is also DEf Min, AKA since Oct 2006. AKA shares responsibility for BEML's mistake if it is just that.

Reports of CBI FIR
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 263660.ece

As per reports the difference is not less than Rs 60 lakh per vehicle whose ex
factory price in prevalent exchange rates is less than Rs 50 lakhs.

When it takes only 6 days to file the FIR after VKS has agitated it, don't say that AKA had it coming for two and a half years. That is unbelievable. Had VKS not spoken about the vehicle and the Lt Gen who attempted to bribe him, there would have been no FIR. VKS would retire in MAy 2012 and everything would be reset to 2009 what they call ' Jaisey the'.

You need not believe other posters, at your own peril. Yes, it is your choice.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 11:23

For all those supporting Mr Ravi Rishi and taking his words for Gospel...

"I will sell my trucks to not so friendly neighbors…” threatens Tatra’s Ravi Rishi

http://aerospacediary.blogspot.in/2012/ ... o-not.html

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 31 Mar 2012 11:30

nelson wrote:For all those supporting Mr Ravi Rishi and taking his words for Gospel...

"I will sell my trucks to not so friendly neighbors…” threatens Tatra’s Ravi Rishi

http://aerospacediary.blogspot.in/2012/ ... o-not.html

What a bakwas this fellow is. These are part of bigger arms cartels and has the protection of not just India's powerful but the world's powerful and hence the confidence. VKS has truely entered padmavyuha like Abhimanyu and I don't think to getout. If he get out then Ravi Rishis are not going to survive.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Mar 2012 11:37

Kraz the the FAT(Field Artillery Tractor) for M-46 guns in the IA. AFAIK, also used by engineers and signals to some extent.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 11:42

chackojoseph wrote: Single Vendor costs has passed through the price negotiation committee which is not from MoD. it is ridiculous to give a reply that the price was arbitrary. Every new order sees an escalation in costs and goes through a price negotiation committee.

You must stop posting with authority when you do not know the facts. You can use words like 'supposedly' or 'allegedly' as you yourself have said before.

CNC (whose charter includes Price Negotiations) is from the MoD in contracts where GoI is the CFA.

http://mod.nic.in/dpm/

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 11:50

nelson wrote:@chackojoseph
BEML is not Pvt Ltd Co. It is aPSU and its boss is also DEf Min, AKA since Oct 2006. AKA shares responsibility for BEML's mistake if it is just that.

Reports of CBI FIR
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 263660.ece

As per reports the difference is not less than Rs 60 lakh per vehicle whose ex
factory price in prevalent exchange rates is less than Rs 50 lakhs.

When it takes only 6 days to file the FIR after VKS has agitated it, don't say that AKA had it coming for two and a half years. That is unbelievable. Had VKS not spoken about the vehicle and the Lt Gen who attempted to bribe him, there would have been no FIR. VKS would retire in MAy 2012 and everything would be reset to 2009 what they call ' Jaisey the'.

You need not believe other posters, at your own peril. Yes, it is your choice.

Well it is a fact that Def Min is total boss of MoD and logically BEML is a part of it. If there was a price difference in selling, then investigation should be conducted and appropriate heads should roll, even if it is Defence Minister. If he is guilty and it is established, then no one, including me can shield him. However, 'like' in the case of VKS DoB, if the verdict is unsatisfactory from Supreme Court, I have every right to grumble. Even if Supreme court had an position on DoB (which I was trying to explain), this case was different. So, if you ask me if there should a blanket statement that AKA is wrong, i will definitely be to differ.

A 'FIR' is something you should understand. its a first 'interim' report and it is not a final word. A charge sheet will be final. So, it doesn't establish guilt.

AKA - VKS filing charges etc are repeat repeat repeat. I wouldn't like to go over it unless, something new happens. He admitted something in parliament and "if" he taking a corrective action, then 'if' the law's have something on this delay, AKA should be dealt on it.

Why is that you think, I don't believe 'other posters?' If I don't believe them, then why I am here? I am reading some points that interesting, giving back an argument. Why do you want me to blanket believe each and every poster? I have brought info to this forum, i have learn't from this forum, asked questions if I did not know, debated etc. What am I doing that is different from others? This matter, I haven't said that there is no 'motive.' However, in incidents like this, there are vested interests, generalization etc.

if i had agreed, insha allah, AKA is wrong, VKS is right, there is conspiracy etc, would I be palatable to you?

My counter question is, are you being helpful to VKS, as you are claiming?

VKS is not complaining about his boss. VKS current problem seems to be TS, who is continuously creating trouble for him. Where as folks are looking if AKA has been bad to VKS, even if VKS and AKA have affirmed that that is not the case. Currently, the real problem for VKS is TS.

nelson,

You must stop posting with authority when you do not know the facts. You can use words like 'supposedly' or 'allegedly' as you yourself have said before.

CNC (whose charter includes Price Negotiations) is from the MoD in contracts where GoI is the CFA.

Can you explain the entire price negotiation procedure?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 11:58

One of my other thoughts that fell of the line is that why there is not a single CAG reference on Unit cost of Tatra trucks, when BEML factory price was half of it? Anyone can dig out a CAG report on this?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 12:14

CAG 1996

While the work of modifications and finalisation of the design of HTMV was in progress, the Army authorities indicated in March 1989 their preference for Kolos Tatra vehicles as being more cost effective and user friendly. Although DRDO persisted in their efforts to increase the engine power and overcome the shortcomings of HTMV the project was plagued by repeated engine failures and breakdown, which failed to satisfy the user. The Army finally lost interest in HTMV, as a comparative evaluation of Tata 4 tons and HTMV showed in July 1992 that the former was more cost effective.

Read a 2006 report on prices of Tatra

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 12:18

@chackojoseph

The beauty of the plot is that VKS can not complain about his boss AKA, at least not till he is in Army Chief's chair. But that doesn't stop me from seeing it with an objective eye.

I requested you to believe other posters with respect to my comment on "strangulation of Kraz" and your reply thereon.

I can explain the Price Negotiation process, but you have to do some Homework/Assignment before that. Please read the DPM in full and make a short summary of what you understand, here.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 12:25

chackojoseph wrote:CAG 1996

While the work of modifications and finalisation of the design of HTMV was in progress, the Army authorities indicated in March 1989 their preference for Kolos Tatra vehicles as being more cost effective and user friendly. Although DRDO persisted in their efforts to increase the engine power and overcome the shortcomings of HTMV the project was plagued by repeated engine failures and breakdown, which failed to satisfy the user. The Army finally lost interest in HTMV, as a comparative evaluation of Tata 4 tons and HTMV showed in July 1992 that the former was more cost effective.
Read a 2006 report on prices of Tatra

The same arguments(not incorrectly) that you and others on this forum dish out to support Arjun vs T-90 can be used to support HTMV/ home made HMV against TATRA in respect of their relative prices.. Obviously the R&D expenditure will have to be factored in for the initial tranches.

Now, i do not expect divergence in views/opinions on TATRA and T-90.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 12:28

2008 CAG

(vi) Recognising sales of incomplete equipment: (a) Out of 21 cases where sales were recognised for Earth Moving equipment in Kolar Gold Fields complex, in 19 cases the engines to be fitted into those equipment were received from engine division Mysore subsequent to 31 March 2008 (b) In respect of 50 Tatra 4 x 4
vehicles though the production was not complete (31 March 2008) as evidenced from the job cards and information in the Company’s ERP system, the Company accounted for sale of Rs.18.38 crore and profit of Rs.2.04 crore.

Roughly 11% profit.

2009 CAG

Sales was overstated by Rs.28.22 crore and Profit was overstated by Rs.8.48 crore due to recognition of sale of 33 Tatra vehicles which were not ready for inspection by the purchaser by 31 March 2009

28% profit in 2009.

You don't have to be even a journalist to do this basic searches on CAG site.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 12:36

^You have to be something to think that the kickbacks would have been paid out of BEML's profit. Go, get TATRA SIPOXY's balance sheets for the respective years.

The kickback would be a part of what BEML paid TATRA and not what BEML profited out of the srew-drivering it did.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 31 Mar 2012 12:42

This detailed report from DNA says that Rishi was exporting trucks from the Czech Reublic below manufacturing cost ... all the profits accrued to Vectra Ltd. This is important because in the CBI probe (if it is done honestly) the difference between the prices will count as loss suffered by the people of India.

The CBI on Friday called NRI businessman Ravindra Kumar Rishi, owner of the UK-based Vectra Group, for questioning in connection with alleged irregularities in the supply of all-terrain Tatra freight vehicles through the state-owned BEML to the Indian Army.

Over the past few days, Rishi has denied any irregularities in the Tatra deal. However, DNA has in its possession a copy of a criminal complaint filed against him in the Czech Republic in the Tatra matter last year.

The complaint alleges that Rishi misused his position in the board of Tatra Czech [the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) of Tatra trucks] to enable Tatra Sipox (UK) Ltd, a company Rishi’s Vectra Group incorporated in 1994 and now owns, to buy knock down trucks from Tatra Czech at below production cost. Tatra Sipox then sold the trucks to India’s BEML at a profit. This caused huge losses to Tatra Czech since profits from the sale were being made by Rishi’s company, says the complaint.

The complaint states: “I hold for important the fact that TATRA Czech was selling Tatra truck to the British company [Tatra Sipox] margin-free, even at prices below the production costs. The entire margin, or all the profit from the transaction, has been earned by Vectra Limited in the UK.”

The complaint was filed by Vaclav Laska, former long-standing head of corruption watchdog Transparency International, based on information provided by a high-ranking Tatra Czech official. The matter is being probed by the Czech Republic’s Department for Detection of Corruption and Financial Offences.

The complaint’s allegation that the entire profit from the Tatra deal “has been earned by Vectra Limited in the UK” assumes significance given army chief General VK Singh’s recent disclosure that he was offered a Rs14 crore bribe to clear a tranche of 600 substandard Tatra trucks.

In the uproar that followed, fingers were pointed at the involvement of Lt Gen (retd) Tejinder Singh. Whether or not Tejinder Singh was the one who offered the bribe, a question no one has asked so far is: who is the mastermind of this offer? That is, who benefited the most from the Tatra arrangement and would suffer if orders were cancelled? Was it BEML officials, defence officials or Ravindra Kumar Rishi?

Laska told DNA that Rishi is a member of Tatra Czech’s supervisory board too. Though this position officially doesn’t bestow on him many powers, in actuality, “he manages Tatra [Czech], decides everything and management of (sic) company accept his orders”, says Laksa.

This perhaps explains why Tatra Czech agreed to sell trucks to Rishi’s company at below production cost and at a loss to itself.

Laska alleges that Rishi is therefore making a double profit by looting both Tatra Czech and India. He adds that it is clear Czech politicians were also involved in this case which is why the matter was taking so long to be investigated.

In previous exclusive reports, DNA established that BEML, the nodal agency appointed by the government to procure trucks for the Indian Army, violated defence procurement guidelines by procuring Tatra trucks from an agent (Tatra Sipox) and not from the OEM, Tatra Czech. Had BEML bought Tatra trucks directly from the OEM, India would have paid much lower prices.

DNA has a copy of an invoice raised by BEML against Tatra Sipox for the trucks. However, Tatra Sipox’s balance sheet doesn’t reflect the sale. The company’s profit and loss account has not been more than Rs3 crore over the last few years which is surprising since the Tatra orders from India have been worth thousands of crores. The mere reflection of Rs3 crore in Tatra Sipox’s account confirms that the deal’s profits are going elsewhere.

So does that mean Rishi’s Vectra Group is the real financial gainer?

A source and senior BEML employee who has worked closely with Tatra truck deals told DNA that Rishi has been “managing” Tatra deals and used to get Tatra orders cleared every year by bribing officials in the Indian Army and BEML. His company is the real beneficiary of this Tatra deal and he might have wanted to push Gen VK Singh to sign the deal clearing another tranche of trucks, said the source.

According to the Czech complaint, Tatra Czech’s board of executives is obligated under the law to exercise its role diligently. However, by allowing Tatra Czech to supply completely knocked down (CKD) sets of Tatra freight vehicles to BEML Ltd indirectly (via Tatra Sipox/Vectra Group), Tatra Czech is stripped of any profit, which is undoubtedly not diligent. “At a common rate of 0.96 million CZK per set and a usual margin of 10%, TATRA Inc. suffered between 2005 and 2010 a loss of profit of 270 million CZK,” the complaint states. It is obvious that due to this indirect sale, Tatra Czech commits tax evasion to the scale of several dozens of millions of Czech Korunas, says the complaint.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_dn ... am_1669582

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 12:42

One of my friends feels that the photo accompanying the article is epic...

http://yfrog.com/nzpn9ncj

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 31 Mar 2012 12:57

Gaurav_S wrote:BTW, below is the poll from TOIlet.

When I had voted, it was ~ 70% in favour of VKS. Strange or maybe not knowing it's TOI.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 31 Mar 2012 13:34

peter wrote:What are the repercussions of libel in India? Is there a different standard for Journalists?

What rights do victims have?

Take the example of Chacko. He wrote a couple of days ago that Army chief VKS allowed the loot of country for 2 years.

When he wrote that many reports were already out that VKS had already cancelled the Tatra contract. Chacko just did not bother checking the reports. In this case since Chacko the journalist spread lies here at BR he could have done something similar wherever his diatribe gets published.

Can the victims go after lousy journalists? Is there a legal recourse to them? Because afterall a person's reputation is tarnished by journalists who lie through their teeth.

Peter : when I wrote a strong piece a few days ago about chacko's posts on this forum (written regularly and always in the same vein), I received a strong message of warning from Ramana. I didn't respond to Ramana because I am not on BR to pick up cudgels. However, it is difficult to keep quiet when there is continuous wrongdoing.

Ramana must accept my observations in the right spirit, which I have every hope he will do.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 14:07

nelson wrote:^You have to be something to think that the kickbacks would have been paid out of BEML's profit. Go, get TATRA SIPOXY's balance sheets for the respective years.

The kickback would be a part of what BEML paid TATRA and not what BEML profited out of the srew-drivering it did.

In one of the PDF's I gave you, it says that Sipox had to absorb the costs because of teh foreign exchange calculations etc.

As per Czechs, Sipox under invoiced the trucks at Tatra, there by causing loss to that factory. Thise trucks were sold to BEML and there was a transfer pricing done by Sipox. However, the CAG audits, MoD vigilance have not reported any anomaly in this aspect of pricing with Sipox. This is where possibly as far as India is concerned, we are safe.

Now your question is if Sipox has paid bribe from its margins to a) Indian politicians and also could b) manage 14 crore bribe to VKS to push the deal :

a) Let me know whose scope is for that? IMO, UK should be investigating it under unethical practice. On Indian side please tell me who has to start an investigation?
b) The transfer of money to VKS did not happen