Throughout my trip, I saw signs of a state that has invested in preserving its historical and cultural heritage and glorifying itself.At Emirgan Park, a tulip festival was under way, and state-employed gardeners were arranging four-foot-tall, tulip-shaped sculptures covered with pictures of Turkish leaders, flags and monuments.I was expecting Istanbul to be bustling and beautiful, but I was not expecting its residents to be so infused with national pride and a collective desire to see through their country’s progress. After all, Turkey has its fair share of emerging democracy challenges.Pakistan has an equally rich historical and cultural heritage, but has actively worked to deny it by rewriting history and making no effort to preserve its artifacts. The Indus Valley Civilisation, Gandhara art, Hindu temples, Mughal architecture and much, much more could mould Pakistan’s national identity — and that identity would be pluralistic, tolerant, informed and proud. But in trying to craft a new, artificial identity as an Islamic nation with allegiance to the Middle East rather than South Asia, we have squandered a rare opportunity. It may be too late for Pakistan to reclaim its true sense of self. But our leaders should remember that a shared, glorious past that holds the promise for a better future can energise and enliven a polity.
( Arab Injection Theory of Poaqabootars )
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
The news item is one that is designed to appeal to the capitalist west where popularity==sales. Who actually counted the posters and how was the figure arrived at? Mind you these are questions that can be asked about collection of Ushr and donations to the LeT too.
The logic is simple "Why would you buy a record if you did not like the song?" Freedom is so heady. You don't like the song, you don't buy the record. From a western capitalist viewpoint this is 100% correct, and it must be true in Islamic Pakistan. They are allies after all.
1. Rihanna sells therefore Rihanna is popular/ Bin Laden sells therefore Bin Laden is popular
2. Oxfam makes a lot of money from charities, so voluntary donations to charity are popular. The Lashkar e Toiba collects a lot of money so voluntary donations to their "charity" are popular.
3. Rihanna sales are not driven by coercion, and the accounts are audited. Bin Laden poster sales are not driven by coercion and the accounts are audited. Oxfam is a charity. No coercion is used. Lashkar e Toiba is a charity. No coercion is used.
I have absolutely no way of countering these simple truths without complicated arguments that will begin to bore anyone with an attention span of less than five minutes.
It's just that I choose not to believe these simple connections that are being made about the popularity of Islam and that once a person is islamic he "voluntarily" enjoys doing things that everyone else hates, or at least does under protest. Protest is not allowed against anything that is called "islamic", least of all an Islamic charity. I think Islam is all about coercion, but I cannot force people to believe what I believe. If people buy the story that islamic things are being done with great enthusiasm and no hint of coercion, that is exactly what Islamists want you to believe. I am sure they are right and I am wrong. But I prefer to be wrong here. I am choosing to be described as "wrong".
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Before I talk about these questions, it is worth it to point out that some of the family members of the president of Pakistan live permanently in the Emirates. Part of the family of Mian Nawaz Sharif has been living in London for quite some time and there was a recent brouhaha about the family of the leader of the opposition in the national assembly being US citizens. Also, the children of our latest ‘saviour’ Imran Khan live in the UK. And of course, the former president and prime minister of Pakistan before 2008 are both living abroad. Clearly none of them are victims of religious discrimination or economic deprivation. When the former leaders and families of our present ‘leaders’ opt to stay abroad, then that clearly is worrisome.
What that suggests is that even our leaders are not too sure about the future of the country and worse, it would also seem that many in positions of power and authority use Pakistan as a means of creating personal wealth that they can then transfer abroad and then live on it. Obviously if the leaders think that, then others feel the same way. Therefore, it would seem that all those that are in a position to earn enough money in Pakistan and then go abroad plan to do so. Does this mean that our leaders and the ‘movers and shakers’ in our country do not care about the problems that face us? Not really, but I do think most of them lack the intellectual and physical courage needed to confront religious extremism and sectarian violence that are the major problems that confront Pakistan at this time. Sadly, there are not enough like the late Salmaan Taseer around.
( IS GOI trying to promote this Hijra- rat phenomemon with curent FDI= Fool Da Indian initiative)
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 09:51
by abhishek_sharma
>> Who actually counted the posters and how was the figure arrived at?
Well, people who printed the posters must have provided the numbers. If you are really into solipsism, then this discussion will not go anywhere. As you mentioned, we can continue questioning the evidence for any/all assertions stated by anyone.
>> If people buy the story that islamic things are being done with great enthusiasm and no hint of coercion
My claim is that anti-Indian activities are being done with great enthusiasm. I will also claim that OBL enjoyed having more than one wives. Maybe his wives were not big fans of polygamy. Coercion is only needed when the action is against your selfish interests. How is anti-India jihad against the selfish interests of Pakis? It only hurts Indians. Dropping Rs 10 in a LeT box is hardly a big sacrifice.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Pakistan has an equally rich historical and cultural heritage, but has actively worked to deny it by rewriting history and making no effort to preserve its artifacts. The Indus Valley Civilisation, Gandhara art, Hindu temples, Mughal architecture and much, much more could mould Pakistan’s national identity — and that identity would be pluralistic, tolerant, informed and proud.
I have mentioned earlier that I am currently reading Alice Albinia's book "Empires of the Indus". She writes some things about Pakistan that actually illustrate the "syncretic culture" where Hindu concepts were absorbed and pushed into Islamic communities. She does mention that some of these things were done to attract Hindus, but also points out how heretical things that will not stand the scrutiny of todays wahhabis actually still exist in Sindh
The possibility that the Islamic extremists of Pakistan can be "at ease' with their culture is unlikely. There is too much Hindu in Pakistan. One of Pakistan's problems is the depth to which Hindus spirituality and legend have sunk into parts that are now Pakistan and how those very concepts were mooted by greatly admired saints and poets.
On BRF we have tended to look at Sufism and Islam with prtend Hindu tarits. But what we have never failed to analyse is what happens acrooss the border where Sufi culture has been taken as Islamic culture for centuries and is suffused with references to concepts that are very Hindu in nature. I think that as we evolve as a forum we need to move into some better detail about nuances of what might be happening in Pakistan as Wahhabandis attack extablished cultures.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 10:06
by shiv
abhishek_sharma wrote:
My claim is that anti-Indian activities are being done with great enthusiasm.
I do not dispute your claim. My claim is that all contributions to Islamic charity are not voluntary. Do you dispute my claim?
Not all charities are advertised as anti-India alone, but all money can be used for anti-India jihad. Many Islamic charities are just sold as "doing good for Muslims". Kicking India comes under that heading anyway.
And the coercion is documented. i will post more reports of that as time passes. I have not been storing them up because I thought everyone realised that there is coercion in Islamic "charity". My cognitive bias in assuming that.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 10:11
by abhishek_sharma
No, I don't dispute that claim. But we are far away from the starting point of this discussion when a similarity was posited between hafta taken by Maoists and Paki jihad against India.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 10:19
by shiv
abhishek_sharma wrote:No, I don't dispute that claim. But we are far away from the starting point of this discussion when a similarity was posited between hafta taken by Maoists and Paki jihad against India.
Coercion is the operative word.
Not all people paying the LeT are paying voluntarily. they are paying even when they need the money because of coercion. They may all hate India, but they are paying more by coercion because they could escape payment by saying they have already dropped money in an anti-India box. All the LeT needs is one gun toting goon outside a mosque and two boxes. One box labelled "jihad against india" and the other box for "Helping Muslims". Do you think any one can put money in one and avoid putting money in the other?
But forget that look at the "ushr" collection of animal skins. it is mandatory and coerced. There was a news item about that and I regret not saving it.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 10:40
by abhishek_sharma
shiv wrote:they are paying even when they need the money because of coercion. They may all hate India, but they are paying more by coercion
Most people have dispensable income which can be donated to his/her favorite cause without any coercion. Of course, the amount/size of this dispensable account depends on the income/wealth of the person. A person below the poverty line might not be able to give a single paisa to LeT. A clerk might not think too much about giving Rs 25. A businessman can easily give Rs 1000 without any coercion.
The question is whether people are paying beyond their means. Is this dispensable (and voluntary) contribution sufficient for the purposes of LeT? Or do they need to force people to pay more? I don't know the answer.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 11:43
by ArmenT
A report from a couple of years ago showing where the funding comes from:
Best part was a quote by Dr. Waheed Balochi, President of the Baloch Society of North America
Wherever you see a terrorist act, you'll see Pakistan's footprints are there.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 11:53
by nvishal
Guys, what is wrong with paksitani FDI in indian economy?
They will be bank rolling the indian economy INSTEAD of bank rolling the local(pakistani) economy.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Quetta: Known as the largest province of Pakistan, Balochistan is also one of the most neglected provinces of Pakistan. "Backwards", "marginalized", "exploited", "insurgency-wracked": the adjectives that most people frequently precede any mention of Balochistan - for all its stunning beauty and natural resources - is overwhelmingly negative.
And for many Balochis, the concept of being "of Pakistan" in any meaningful sense is one they find difficult to entertain.
"Why should I care about Pakistan when Pakistan doesn't care about me?", says Parinaaz Balochi, a 20 year old student in the capital of Quetta.
Such expressions of alienation is common in provinces like Balochistan, Sindh, Gilgit-Baltistan, North West Frontier Province and also among the Pashtun and Hazara people in Pakistan. The marginalization of these provinces and people are not only political but also economical, ethnic and linguistic in a country where there is a strong domination of Punjabis over others.
"We look so different to start with", said Ahmad, who works for a local human rights group in Quetta. He is working to deliver justice to thousands of families whose one or more persons are missing because of abduction and even killing in most cases by the Pakistan's dreaded intelligence agency ISI.
"We are often mistaken for West Asian particularly Iranians because of our Persian origin.", Ahmad said.
Pakistan's largest province with 13 million people, Balochistan borders Iran and Afghanistan and its people have always tended to look towards Iran and the rest of the West Asia for cultural links. Same is the case with Sindh, a province inhabited by 55 million people looks towards bordering India for cultural links. Sindh also has a strong separatist movement aimed at breaking away from Pakistan and establishing an independent Sindhudesh.
"We are marginalized and exploited and feel totally cut off from the Punjabi dominated Pakistan.", says Noorgol Balochi, a senior professor of History at the University of Balochistan in Quetta. "Culturally and Socially we identify ourselves more with countries of West Asia and also with India with which we have cultural ties since ancient times.
One striking example is the massive popularity of Iranian pop songs, Bollywood movies from India, Indian TV soaps which have filled the vacuum created by separatist led boycott of Pakistani cinema and entertainment.
The scourge of separatism
Separatist violence has been part of daily life in Balochistan for decades, as it has been in most of the border provinces that have spawned more than 100 militant groups whose demands range from autonomy to secession.
After the partition of British India, Balochistan was left with no option but to join Pakistan after Indian prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru returned the accession papers sent by Khan of Kalat. The condition that Balochistan should have autonomy in all matters other than defence, finance, currency and foreign policy were not respected by Pakistan after the death of Jinnah.
According to political analyst Hamid Qureshi, the enormous problems Pakistan faced after partition meant its Punjabi leaders neglected states like Balochistan which were never properly integrated into the socio-political mainstream.
The federal government’s “step-motherly treatment” fueled separatist sentiment from the outset and rebel outfits sprang up “each vying for political supremacy and promising secession from Pakistan to its people,” Qureshi said.
The perception of Islamabad and Rawalpindi as a quasi-colonial power was reinforced by the huge deployment of security forces armed with sweeping anti-insurgency powers to counter the separatist violence that peaked in the 1980s and 1990s.
“The government exists only in name here,” said Akbar, who runs a shop in Quetta’s main Bazaar, where heavily armed commandos are a constant presence. “The real power is in the hands of the army and the underground outfits. Both run the show with the power of the gun. We have nowhere to turn to,” the 35-year-old said.
The situation is further complicated by the fact that the myriad rebel groups are largely formed on tribal or ethnic lines with rival agendas that regularly erupt into bloody internecine disputes. Balochistan has a strong ethnic mix, and the province’s Hazara, Sindhi, Pashtun and Balochi communities are all deeply committed to preserving their own cultural autonomy.
Rahmat belongs to the Balochis who dominate Balochistan, and it is that community which provides his primary identity, as he makes clear when asked whether he voted in recent elections.
“Why should I? We are Balochis. We are not Pakistanis,” he said.
The disconnect with the rest of the country extends to sport. In the streets of the bazaar, young boys play a game of football as opposed to cricket.
Many goods come from Iran and even Afghanistan across the border. Plans for Balochistan to become a key transit point on the future Iran-Pakistan-India oil pipeline have been stymied by the threat from rebels.
The poverty levels are high in the province of Balochistan despite being rich in natural resources. People of Balochistan often complain that they are being exploited and profits from the resources are not reaching the Balochis.
Fight for the missing people
Various human rights groups and social activists have relentlessly been fighting against the Pakistani state in relation to the missing people issue. Families of the missing persons frequently organize hunger strikes against the atrocities of the Pakistani state and also to bring the attention of world human rights groups like Amnesty.
These protests have borne fruit since the plight of the people of Balochistan has been garnering increasing attention in the western press in recent times. One member of United States congress went as far ahead as to introduce a bill in support of independence of Balochistan.
The ordinary people on the streets of Balochistan hope that one day they will be free from the exploitation of Pakistani state and atrocities of the Pakistani army and be able to live with dignity and in peace.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
In order to expand media outreach throughout Pakistan, the army is planning to set-up a countrywide radio network parallel to Radio Pakistan and PTV to create what it calls ‘social harmonisation’ and to propagate ‘state vision’ in a ‘vibrant manner.’
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
I think its the Mehsuds who have a hand in Bannu... Hindu reports that bad Taliban TTP is behind this...
ISI supports good Taliban onlee
No, I think this was an exchange between TSP and TTP as part of the on-going truce between them.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 14:54
by chetak
nvishal wrote:Guys, what is wrong with paksitani FDI in indian economy?
They will be bank rolling the indian economy INSTEAD of bank rolling the local(pakistani) economy.
Along with directly funding and controlling undesirables with incountry presense and positioning isi operatives in the name of "branch managers" to interact directly with our fundoos, nothing else.
Indian jehadis are also a part of the paki economy onlee.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 15:15
by abhijitm
nvishal wrote:Guys, what is wrong with paksitani FDI in indian economy?
They will be bank rolling the indian economy INSTEAD of bank rolling the local(pakistani) economy.
Please understand the bigger picture. Who in pakistan have money? their elites. Who are these elites? pakis mostly realated with army. Why they want to invest in India? Because their enterprise is running loses in pakistan, plus US money is draining. So these anti indian elites will invest their money here, make profit and eventually spend it on anti indian acrtivities.
Why should we encourage this?
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
I think its the Mehsuds who have a hand in Bannu... Hindu reports that bad Taliban TTP is behind this...
ISI supports good Taliban onlee
No, I think this was an exchange between TSP and TTP as part of the on-going truce between them.
I dont think there is gonna be lasting peace between the Mehsuds and TTP.. The killing of Baitullah ought to ensure that... TTP has been trying to get Hakimullah since
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 15:43
by abhijitm
unofficial truce mediated by the haqqanis is still there.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 16:59
by CRamS
abhijitm wrote:
Please understand the bigger picture. Who in pakistan have money? their elites. Who are these elites? pakis mostly realated with army. Why they want to invest in India? Because their enterprise is running loses in pakistan, plus US money is draining. So these anti indian elites will invest their money here, make profit and eventually spend it on anti indian acrtivities.
Why should we encourage this?
India has no offensive strategy to deal with TSP, and even if there is one, US and other 2.5 sugar daddies of TSP, on whom India also depends on for its economic growth will beat the crap out of India should it dare implement that against TSP. This has then given a free hand to those among India's ruling elite, for whom TSP crimes against India were never crimes to begin with, their gripe is with India, or more specifically assertive Hinduism; to shower TSP with as much love as is possible within India's political framework and have concocted this FDI and other bhai chara nonsense.
But as long as there is some opposition in India, feeble though it maybe at the moment, that prevent a complete sell out, TSP pakijabis won't disappoint. Because the ultimate objective of pakijabisis steadfast, and so it some point, they will strike big if they are not making headway in any change in status quo, and on the Indian side, we'll have to wait and watch to see as to what extent TSP pasand elites will turn the other cheek. But then again, there are enough Romilla Thapar type ruling elite in India in concert with colinoal west who hold so much sway over India's fragile social fabric that they would actually welcome an elite Moghul durbar in Delhi who in their minds will be much more "egalitarian" and pliable from west's POV than India's current social order.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 17:25
by Neela
Have had innumerable flipflops of the last 10 days regarding GoI policy. But yesterday's events at Kabul has left TSP with no friends at all . ISAF have understood Pakis . US has. Karzai has. India is pretending not to know. The peace moves from MMS IS clear pandering to TSP's loony demands - a "give us or else type". They have done it against US. Doing it against India. And with Afghanistan they will continue to act like they did until they can do the same.
Surely, the incentives that we give TSP ( electricity ,FDI) were great negotiating carrots - if MMS is getting only peace in the west in return, I really do not know what a good deal for
India is.
In other words , the cost for India to hurt TSP is much, much greater than peace moves - this is the impression I get and that is reason for the current GoI policy. What that cost involves - I do not know but this is a theory that I have. Poke holes please.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 17:50
by Vikas
^ Neela ji, Peace on western front but for how long ? The next COAS in Pak will try to show his b@lls by ordering something similar in India like it happened in Kabul yesterday. What is MMS going to do then ?
If it is only chai-biskoot, it is fine but if India starts rolling out power lines to provide 5000MW of electricity to Pakistan, we should all take a dip in Holy Ganges for bringing such a govt to power.
In 2001, we had no financial ties with Pakistan but still business leaders somehow managed to convince Govt of the day not to get into war with Pakistan. Now fast forward it to 2020 with companies having business interests in Pakistan and something like 11/26 happens. WKK brigade will have a ready made constituency in India pushing for "Mature" reaction to the act of few looney miscreants.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 18:24
by pankajs
Even if you do not have faith in the GOI have faith the in the baki's pakiness. Someone from their side is bound to wreck the process sooner or later. Even in that case do not expect a coercive response but the bhaichara will certainly be put into deep freeze till another PM decides to try for a no-b@ll peace prize.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 19:17
by Neela
VikasRaina wrote:^ Neela ji, Peace on western front but for how long ? The next COAS in Pak will try to show his b@lls by ordering something similar in India like it happened in Kabul yesterday. What is MMS going to do then ?
If it is only chai-biskoot, it is fine but if India starts rolling out power lines to provide 5000MW of electricity to Pakistan, we should all take a dip in Holy Ganges for bringing such a govt to power.
In 2001, we had no financial ties with Pakistan but still business leaders somehow managed to convince Govt of the day not to get into war with Pakistan. Now fast forward it to 2020 with companies having business interests in Pakistan and something like 11/26 happens. WKK brigade will have a ready made constituency in India pushing for "Mature" reaction to the act of few looney miscreants.
Sirji, end of the day, current GoI came into power despite 26/11 ---> that is also part of the puzzle.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 19:43
by abhishek_sharma
Neela wrote:
Sirji, end of the day, current GoI came into power despite 26/11 ---> that is also part of the puzzle.
Good point. But in defense of people, the govt was breathing fire before elections. The mohabbat started after the elections. So this govt duped her citizens.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 20:05
by brihaspati
Regarding FDI 's : there is a huge controversy about the mixed bag of outcomes from FDI's, and FDI is not necessarily always positive when judged against multiple socio-economic criteria usually accepted by the the most die-hard apologists - such as distribution of income and development etc.
FDI impact seems to be dependent on a variety of factors - its positive impact is usually connected to a situation in the target country, which already is growing in the concerned sector, there is net transfer of technology from the investing body, and there is promotion of competitive efficiency in the target country in that sector.
FDI can be negative in the target country if these conditions are not met. But what concerns us here is what benefit is it to the investor? For Pak, the capital returns will go to whose pockets? Will the returns circulate within the Paki economy or be stowed away from Pakiland? How then can the hypothesis that GOI might be doing a bad-Naxal-but-good-aam policy be valid?
Second, what net tech transfer will the Pakis do for India and in which sector? Otherwise it becomes just speculative capital investment - and I am not sure that such a thing has not already happened through regular financial channels in our exchanges.
With Paki photochor business, there could be reverse flow of tech actually even if sectorial FDI happens, and if that is a way of helping Paki aam - then GOI and its apologists may have a point!
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 20:06
by abhijitm
Guys, do you really think pakistan figures/matters in Indian election? Also indian public has seen similarity of GoI policies viz a viz pakistan irrespective of the ruling party.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 20:09
by brihaspati
Ah that nails it! Why should Indian elections be affected by what happens in or to pakistan? True very true! So Indian elections should not also be affected if GOI thrashes Pakistan - by the same logic.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 20:18
by abhijitm
Maldives doesnt figures in india election. Many indians wont even able to point out Maldives on the map. But just before the election if GoI does some macho-giri and take military action or something then the patriotic sentiments will ride on high and that would benefit the ruling party to some extend.
Same logic is applied to pakistan. But because pak is our sworn enemy then the sentiments will be much stronger and probably the ruling party can win the next term
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 20:48
by arun
The Nigerian press interviews Ahmed Ali Sirohey, acting High Commissioner of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan whose visage oozes Mohammadden bearded piety.
Anyway the Nigerians better be careful as the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s advise is more likely to turn Nigeria into a “Basket Case” rather than a “Food Basket” :
In another interview also by the Nigerian press a rather incoherent response by the same acting High Commissioner of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan on a question on the Islamic Terrorist attack of Mumbai.
I thought the former military dictator of the Islamic Republic had pronounced that Pakistani’s spoke better English than Indians :
The US government recently declared one of your citizens wanted over the Mumbai attack, and the Indian government has also accused Pakistan of refusing to extradite him to India for trial, what is the view of the Pakistani government on this matter?
India has been in agreement for so many years. For centuries we have allowed India, we have turned India to the most favoured nation in trade and commerce and it was favorable in 2012. Our business relation has improved and now our business between India and Pakistan has stacked $3billion mark, so of course our business is growing everyday and we have been visiting India for the country to dialogue for the resolution of the Cashmere issue, for the resolution of certain population issue, so all these issues are done.
We are imposing the UN resolution on Cashmere and India is in breach of UN resolution on Cashmere. So we are asking that to come to the table so that we resolve issues to the benefit of both people, people of both India and Pakistan.
So if we resolve these issues peacefully, we would have offered our people more resources for our education, for health, for small micro-financing, small medium industries - the cottage industries, agricultural development, irrigation, infrastructures, telecommunication, IT and some other sectors to develop our livelihood and be part of the citizens of our respected countries. Pakistan has been wishing that and we hope that it will dialogue and we will work out these issues.
Pakistan and India have been in talks and hopefully the matter you raised will be resolved. We are hopeful.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 21:43
by sum
abhishek_sharma wrote:
Neela wrote:
Sirji, end of the day, current GoI came into power despite 26/11 ---> that is also part of the puzzle.
Good point. But in defense of people, the govt was breathing fire before elections. The mohabbat started after the elections. So this govt duped her citizens.
Shri Manish Tiwari and other Mahatma's of INC had the same response when asked about what GoI would do to punish TSP post 26/11:
"Obviously we cannot say all the options currently on the table but be rest assured that many things are going to be done which cannot be discussed in public".
Guess he meant SeS and other stuff now that i think of those statements 3 years later.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 22:12
by Suraj
SSridhar wrote:
Suraj wrote:How on earth does China intend to control Afghanistan ? That place has been the graveyard of the British, Russians and Americans. I'd be happy to see the Chinese get bogged down there and then subsequently face discontent from the rear when Xinjiang, Kashgar etc erupt against the Han. The Chinese are no more or less ruthless than the Soviets were.
Suraj, PRC does not want to control Afghanistan. They simply want to have access to the exploitation of Afghan resources. They may believe that the Taliban would facilitate the Chinese greed through blandishments with the help of the Pakistani friends. The Chinese might also believe that keeping Pakhtuns in power in Afghanistan would enable Pakistan to confine jihadi Islamism within the Afghan borders and PA would keep their promise to PRC of going after the Uyghurs within Pakistan.
Apologies for not responding sooner - I wasn't online much the last couple of days and this thread sure moves fast. My point is that no one went into Afghanistan expecting to fail. Each one after the British went in with the lessons of their predecessors in mind; the US in particular had a wealth of intelligence and historical knowledge to work with. None intended to be a hegemon as much as a scheming controller. They all failed in different ways.
There's nothing on the Chinese part that indicates they're particularly more skilled at managing things. Their own gains from the cats paw so far have been primarily in the form of infectious diseases (polio outbreak in Tibet/Xinjiang) and worsening the Muslim-Han clashes in Xinjiang. China has, if anything, shown a consistent preference to use a sledgehammer to deal with flies (e.g. South China Sea) - a policy that is unsuited to the nuance needed to deal with Afghanistan, and typically ends up causing their periphery to gang up against them without fail, leaving only a pair of puppet states (Pak, NK) as otherwise consistent partners. And even in those cases, their ties are not to a nation but to its dictatorial leadership; regime change has the potential to significantly alter those client relationships, particularly in NK.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 16 Apr 2012 23:14
by Deans
While I dont like this `appeasment' policy of GoI towards Pak, FDI from Pakistan does not in my view, pose any additional security problem.
If they wanted to cause trouble via FDI, they would have routed the investment via Dubai. (just as Fake currency will happen anyway).
If this granting of FDI (on a case by case basis), can be linked to India getting MFN, there may just be some scope for our exports to increase a little. While there may the odd Pakistani businessman who would invest in India, the quantum of such investment would not make a difference one way or the other.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Right now, there are about five thousand Nigerians being trained in Pakistan Military Academies.
Centuries!! The paki prepensity to exaggerate knows no bounds. BTW, what is the intake capacity of PMA?
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 17 Apr 2012 01:31
by KLNMurthy
jrjrao wrote:"Taliban says multiple suicide bombers are involved...."
This looks like the L-e-T doing a Mumbai on Kabul. This being L-e-T's response to the big bounty being placed for Hafez-e-pig.
If Unkil has real balls, he should unload a couple loaded B-52s on Muridke....
They don't and they won't. As Hillary so cutely put it, it's complicated.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 17 Apr 2012 01:47
by member_22872
KLNMurthy wrote:
jrjrao wrote:"Taliban says multiple suicide bombers are involved...."
They don't and they won't. As Hillary so cutely put it, it's complicated.
US can't and won't for the reason that, they indirectly support taliban, they want taliban to be accommodated in the next Afg gov, so it is complicated,so they can't and also for the same reason they won't. Even if it means nothing, India also should follow a policy of labeling nations with terrorist ties as terrorist nation like US does when it feels like. By now US would have been labeled as one who supports terrorism in so many ways.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 17 Apr 2012 01:52
by SBajwa
Meanwhile Pakis are happy pushing in drugs and terrorism
Countering peddlers
The first quarter of the current year witnessed a record seizure of narcotics along the India-Pakistan border in Punjab, particularly in the Ferozepur sector. Anirudh Gupta finds out how cross-border smugglers have tried to change their strategy and how the BSF has succeeded in countering them
The first quarter of the current year has witnessed record seizures of narcotics as compared to the previous years along the 553-km-long border that the country shares with Pakistan here. The credit goes to an enhanced vigil by the Border Security Force to combat heightened smuggling activities in the area.
Not only contraband, cases related to the recovery of arms and ammunition have also shown a substantial increase. Sources say till date this year, 127.155 kg of heroin, worth Rs 635 crore in the international market, has been recovered. A huge quantity of other drugs, fake Indian currency amounting to Rs 19.28 lakh, 12 pistols, pump action gun (Baretta) and ammunition have also been seized.
Apart from the seizures, eight Pakistani smugglers were gunned down while six others were arrested. The BSF also nabbed four Bangladeshis and as many Indian drug peddlers involved in cross-border smuggling. Last year, the BSF had recovered 67.97 kg of heroin and fake currency amounting to Rs 41.71 lakh during the first quarter.
Smugglers change modus operandi
Earlier, say the BSF officials, the cross-border drug peddlers used to adopt "conceal and clear" strategy to smuggle contraband to India. However, of late, the agents from the Pakistani side have started coming up to the border fence while taking cover of 'sirkanda' (tall wild grass) or standing crops in the fields along the border. Subsequently, they either throw the consignment over the fence or use plastic pipes to push it across the electrocuted barbed wires where their Indian counterparts are ready to receive the consignment.
During the entire operation, the smugglers on both sides communicate through mobile phones using Pakistani SIM cards to evade any interception by the Indian security and intelligence agencies.
Pakistani SIM cards proving a headache
The cross-border drug peddlers continue to use Pakistani SIMs even inside the Indian territory to evade surveillance and interception by the security agencies. The process has been going on for some time now and regular seizure of these Pakistani SIMs is being made. However, the agencies have been unable to find any solution to check the practice, which has been posing a serious threat to the security of the nation.
The BSF officials admit that the Pakistani mobile operatives have their presence inside the Indian border. Pakistani service provider Mobilink, which leads the market share with 30.75 million subscribers, has connectivity up to several hundred metres in Mamdot, Khem Karan and Ferozepur areas while another company, U-Fone, has its signals reaching several villages in Mamdot and Amarkot areas.
Unregistered SIMs in wide circulation
A lot of foreign companies operate in Pakistan, which include Telenor (Norwegian), Zong (Chinese), WorldCall (Oman). Besides, UAE-based Warid also has a large subscriber base in Pakistan. Security officials say that in the absence of any stringent regulatory laws in Pakistan, a large number of unregistered SIM cards are in circulation there, which at times make their way into India. "It is extremely difficult to prevent the incursion of these SIMs as they can be easily brought here through legal interface like Wagah or Attari and even through other grey channels as well," say BSF officials. The smugglers who use Pakistani SIMs keep changing the mobile user and their number to ensure they are not intercepted. The BSF officials reveal that earlier both smugglers as well as spies used to operate through satellite phones to execute their tasks. However, security agencies were able to track down their details. But, intercepting the SIM cards is a cumbersome job as their servers are based on the other side of the border.
Modern gadgets aid surveillance
The BSF officials say that modern surveillance gadgets like HHTI (hand-held thermal imagers), LORROS (long range reconnaissance and observation system) and night vision scopes, which have been procured from Israel and a few other countries, are now being used by the troops at forward locations along the zero line. These gadgets have proved beneficial for the troops as they have improved surveillance along the border due to which any movement ahead of the fencing can be easily spotted. Moreover, the installation of high mask illumination pole lights along the border has also increased visibility even during foggy days and the darkest of nights.
Welfare programme for vulnerable youth
Most of the time, unemployed and frustrated youths belonging to the border villages are hired as couriers by the professional drug smugglers. The job fetches them quick and easy money, ranging from Rs 25,000 to Rs 40,000 for a packet of heroin. The couriers, say BSF officials, are generally unaware about the origin and final destination of the consignment due to which security agencies are not able to apprehend the kingpins behind the drug racket.
The BSF has launched a civil action programme for the welfare of the people residing in villages along the zero line and its hinterland. The programme has given tremendous results as the inflow of information regarding sinister activities has increased, which, in turn, has helped the intelligence agencies keep track on the nefarious designs of the smugglers in the sensitive border areas.
What BSF Inspector General has to say
The BSF Inspector General, Punjab Frontier, Aditya Mishra, says the force has also increased the strength of troops patrolling the border, which has helped in combating the menace of drug peddling. "After the recent recruitment, all vacancies in the force have been filled," he says. Sources say coordinated efforts were being made with the help of other security agencies to keep a check on the cross-border drug trade, which has paid rich dividends.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 17 Apr 2012 01:56
by SBajwa
Top
Pak intruder shot dead in Gurdaspur
Ravi Dhaliwal/TNS
Dera Baba Nanak (Gurdaspur), April 15
A 32-year-old intruder was shot dead in the Dera Baba Nanak sector late last night. Jawans guarding the border noted suspicious movement on the Indian side of the border. The two- Sitara Singh and Mala Ram-engaged the intruder in an encounter and asked him to surrender. However, the intuder opened fire and was shot by security personnel of the 74th Battalion in retaliatory action.
A 9 mm pistol and four SIM cards (three unused U-Fone and one used Telenor) were found from the encounter site. Addressing a press conference near the encounter site, BSF DIG PS Bains said an inquiry had been initiated into the incident.
“Prima facie it appears that he was a drug smuggler and wanted to hand over the SIM cards to his Indian accomplices,” Bains said. He said vigilance had been increased along the border. He was all praise to the BSF’s Hot Interception Troops (HIT) unit for spotting the intruder.
“I give all credit to my jawans, particularly Sitara Singh and Maha Singh. I do not believe the intruder was a terrorist.
We suspect that he might have been an accomplice of drug smugglers in India. The facts of the case will be known only after a preliminary inquiry report.”
Two bullets hit the deceased on the head and on the left shoulder. His body remained lying in the wheat fields throughout the night, Bains added.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Posted: 17 Apr 2012 01:58
by RajeshA
One can probably jam the signals from Pakistani Mobile Operators and undertake some Denial of Service attacks.
Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2
Pakistan denies travel permits for PoK
Darshan Bharti
Poonch, April 13
The much-touted Poonch- Rawalakote bus service, “Rahen Milan”, which had brought cheer to lakhs of divided families on both sides of the Line of Control, is fizzling out due to lack of interest from the Pakistan side.
Over 6,000 applicants have been awaiting their turn to go across the border for the past five years.
Since the beginning of the bus service in 2005, thousands of people from Rajouri and Poonch districts have been applying for travel permits.
But after a wait for over three years, thousands of divided families have lost hope of meeting their relatives again as the Pakistani authorities have been continuously denying travel permits to Indian divided families. There has been no delay on the part of the Indian authorities, which has enabled hundreds of PoK travellers to visit areas across the border.
Mohd Matloob Khan of Chandak says: “I had applied for a permit to visit PoK to meet my relatives in 2007. In spite of repeated visits to the passport office and the agencies concerned, I have been unable to secure a permit. I have lost all hopes of visiting PoK.”
Mohd Nazir, a resident of Gursai, Mendher, says: “I applied for a permit in 2008 and have been making rounds of the offices concerned but to no avail. My relatives from PoK have visited here twice during this period.”
“The bus service was started amidst much fanfare with the hope that all divided families will be able to meet again. Mufti Sayeed, the then Chief Minister, had promised to establish meeting points on both sides of the LoC to facilitate meetings between families once a month. He had also announced that the permit system would be made hassle-free and the DC would be empowered to issue permits and extension thereof to travellers. But nothing has come out of the assurances so far,” says Riaz, a resident of Harni, Mendher, who has been awaiting permit for the past three years.
Initially, two routes were opened in Poonch district - Tatta Pani and Chakkan da Bagh - allowing 30 passengers in each of the two buses to travel. The number was subsequently increased to 60.
The Tatta Pani road was, however, washed away forcing the authorities to shift the bus service to Chakkan da Bagh. This raised the number of travellers to 120 per week from Chakkan da Bagh.
At the start of the service, over 200 passengers used to travel from this side to PoK. With Pakistan authorities denying permits to Indian travellers, the number has gone down to just around 15 passengers per week. At times, not even a single permit is issued to Indian travellers.
Families lose hope
After a wait of three years, thousands of divided families have lost hope of meeting their relatives as the Pakistani authorities have been continuously denying travel permits to them. There has been no delay on part of the Indian authorities.
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