Bharat Rakshak

Posted: **04 Oct 2015 13:56**

I'm unable to draw a correlation between digital India and the ability to travel related to poverty of single moms.

From the days of the Silk Road, the ability to travel has given individuals in any society to say FO.

Children, spouses and employees. The moment there is disagreement one of the parties has the ability to very easily relocate.

This has always, for centuries, placed an undue stress on societies and in many cases torn them apart.

Short story. There are great benefits in near terms, but generally longer terms one will experience a fragmentation.

Check to see if India is facing aged parents living by themselves, housing for the old aged, etc. First indicator.

These are very well studied and documented topics.

There is no country on planet earth that is more harsh on its poor than the US.

Happens to any society that has upper and lower middle class. As long as a society has just middle class they will be fine. Even mobility will have small impacts.

BTW, until about 1990 the US was by design able to handle 5% poor, 5% rich and 90% middle income. Those of us that came early will recall most of us made the same income, disparity was very low.

Wait till India hits the economic strides and all these socio-economic zombies will rear their heads. No way to really defend against them. RSS etc will face huge problems.

Check out SA.

Posted: **04 Oct 2015 15:24**

This dhaga reminds me of my kindergarten advisor's square-shaped coffee mug. Philosophical interpretations in parentheses are mine, having watched these at every weekly or other meeting starting the day I arrived in kindergarten.

The One Thing Money Can't Buy: Poverty

Posted: **04 Oct 2015 22:28**

Folks, I am realizing that one does not have to read AAUP's "Academic blogs" from "scholars" to know about India-US relations, and be amazed by gems these scholars produce about Modi's visit to silicon valley etc..

Our own brf is not far behind..

Just a recent random sample, a gem which I quote:

Poverty in the US is a different beast...
There is no country on planet earth that is more harsh on its poor than the US.

The statement comes from the same person, who recently also posted another gem, in this same dhaga about Pope, in response to a picture posted of a MILLION strong crowd welcoming in Philadelphia. (Context was - large crowd coming to see NaMo in California not listening to these scholars proclamations that "these crowd did not know but NaMo is a 'prime murderer' and the scholars knew better than the people who elected NaMo or came to listen to him)..

The pope heads an organization that is responsible for millions of deaths, often in the most horrific manner. He is essentially [b]the head of what used to be ISIS.[/b]

Head of ISIS!!!! Really??? The ones who beheads people?

I am not a pope-bhakt, not even a NaMo-bhakt but these kind of statments are just vile, and looks very poorly on those who support such vitriol.

Just like NaMo attackers, they do not produce any evidence or basis, even remotely.. They do not add anything to discussion.
These are nothing but hate-filled rants.

Now let me come back to the gem about "how US treats poor".. claim is:

There is no country on planet earth that is more harsh on its poor than the US.

Let me take this opportunity to respond in a positive way.. Please do watch this video (liked below), if you have not. Video is a short clip, of Narendra Modi, the ELECTED Prime Minister of the largest Democracy of the world, speaking to 60,000+ crown of USA youth in Central Park, USA.
The crowd is "Global Citizen" gathered in support of to fight poverty everywhere!

So how does US treats it poor, Listen to PM. He is SALLUTING them.
He does NOT agree with non-sense hate-filled post.
Please do watch this news clip (Few minutes only)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n2yzjfndb0

Here is text:

PM's remarks at the Global Citizens Festival, Central Park, New York City

How are you doing, New York...
I hope, you are having, a good time...

Namaste. My greetings, to all those, watching on TVs, laptops, tablets and phones, as well.
P
This, is a great city. It has assimilated, the world, in itself.
Today, you have shown, that you also care, for the world outside.

I am truly delighted, to be here. In the open Central Park. And not inside, a closed Conference Room...
Among the Youth. Among you.
Because, you are the future. What you do Today, will decide, our Tomorrow.

I feel, a current of hope, in this Park. Among you, I feel confident about the future...

You are touching, the lives of those, who are not as fortunate, as you are. What an admirable act, this is. What a sacred mission.

For you to think, about those, who are far. Whose faces, you have not seen. Whose names, you do not know. Whose nationality, does not matter to you.

For you to convert, your thoughts into action. And devote, your time, and energy. So that others, may have a better future too.

Those living in poverty. Without education. Without basic sanitation. Without opportunity. And worse, without hope.

I salute you. I feel proud, of each one of you. I am sure, your families, your friends, your nation, feels just as proud.
{ Far cry from what is posted by the poster in brf }
Some believe, that the world changes, with the wisdom of the old.
I think, that the idealism, innovation, energy and ‘can do’ attitude, of the youth, is even more powerful.

That is my hope, for India too. 800 million youth, joining hands, to transform our nation.
To put, the light of hope, in every eye. And, the joy of belief, in every heart. Lift people, out of poverty. Put clean water, and sanitation, within the reach of all. Make healthcare, available to all. A roof, over every head.

I know, it is possible...
Because, I feel, a new sense of purpose, energy, and will, in India.
Because, India’s youth, can see that, you are joining hands, with them.
Because, I believe, that we can speak with one voice. For one future...

That, is why, I am here.
Because, I believe in you...

Let me end, with a few lines in Sanskrit, that inspire me, personally:

सर्वे भवन्तु सुखिनः।
सर्वे सन्तु निरामयाः।
सर्वे भद्राणि पश्यन्तु।
मा कश्चित् दुःख भाग्भवेत्॥
ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ॥

May All, be prosperous, and happy.
May All, be free from illness.
May All, see what is spiritually uplifting.
May no one, suffer.
Om Peace, Peace, Peace...

Thank you once again, for having me over.
Thanks in particular, to Hugh Jackman here.

God bless you all.
May the Force be with You...
Really enjoyed being among youngsters at the Global Citizen Festival in Central Park, NYC.
— Narendra Modi (@narendramodi) September 28, 2014

Link: http://www.narendramodi.in/pms-remarks- ... -city-6658

Thanks for the opportunity to keep this dhaga relevant -- India - US relations.

Posted: **04 Oct 2015 22:34**

Ever heard of the inquisitions?

Posted: **04 Oct 2015 22:39**

LokeshC wrote:Poverty in the US is a different beast. I am short on time, so will make it short one line, more when time permits:

There is no country on planet earth that is more harsh on its poor than the US.

Better than how India does. There is no comparison.

Posted: **04 Oct 2015 22:49**

I have found poverty in the US to be rather unique and draconian. I have the articles to prove it, but it would take sometime to put together.

It seems like I have touched a nerve, I will post a detailed response when I have some time.

Posted: **04 Oct 2015 22:55**

LokeshC wrote:I have found poverty in the US to be rather unique and draconian. I have the articles to prove it, but it would take sometime to put together.

It seems like I have touched a nerve, I will post a detailed response when I have some time.

If you qualified it, as e.g., "poverty in the US is rather unique and draconian compared to the other OECD countries", I'd go along.

Posted: **04 Oct 2015 23:09**

Amber G. wrote:
The pope heads an organization that is responsible for millions of deaths, often in the most horrific manner. He is essentially [b]the head of what used to be ISIS.[/b]

Head of ISIS!!!! Really??? The ones who beheads people?

The Papacy has had periods of extreme vileness during its 2000-year history. There were periods when minions of the Pope were, if not beheading people, drawing and quartering them or burning them at the stake.

That said, as a conservative Hindu, I prefer that ancient traditions continue with reform, rather than that they be ripped out and replaced via revolutionary change; the modern incarnation of the Papacy is certainly better than many in its past. If it accepted with sincerity that Hindus are not lesser children of the Catholic God until they convert, I would have few complaints against it, though I would continue to point out the hypocrisy of a significantly Catholic West preaching to India about women's rights, when women are barred from the Catholic hierarchy.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 00:22**

Head of ISIS!!!! Really??? The ones who beheads people?

Speaking of Massacre Competitions..
Also, a more comprehensive list of massacres (no endorsement implied of any source!!!)

So I would suggest that ISIS is merely backward. Their scale of carnage is not yet up to the standards set way back in the Crusades.

Of course merely beheading is sooo BCE! The Modern Kingdom of Saudi Arabia prefers to do Crucifixion and THEN behead, while the more refined ISIS technique is to put someone in a cage, douse him with jet fuel and light him up. Then again, modern practice in Iraq was to drill holes in people using power drills.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 00:28**

Deleted.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 01:16**

The reason I did not expand on the papal visit is because of thread derailment. I really dont want to get into a slug fest and I have no interest in convincing those who have made up their mind.

I respect you and your intellect. Nothing further on this from me.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 02:59**

AmberG
I personally would have glossed over that post. What the poster said about popes in the past the crusades etc the involvement in stifling women children killing many ---genocides in many parts including Americas Australia are well documented.

One cannot indict them as victors don't indict themselves. Also they are dead now.
Revolutions happened due to church excess in Europe directly or indirectly.
Roman catholic church is a pale shadow of itself of the past.

It needed the influence of other cultures from Asia Africa to see the difference of how to live better with less bloodshed.

From birds view of history- the current LGBT feminism communism etc are all revenge sort of movements against conservative church.
These movements are influenced by other cultures experience and Christians yearning for change and reduce church influence.

Anyway my only friendly suggestion to you is please don't be too sensitive.

Something's need to let it pass instead of giving too much attention. It will worsen it only.

You do contribute a lot of positive energy but very sensitive which reduces the effect.

Jmts.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 03:04**

Raja Bose wrote: Going by the wifi equipped homeless shelters here in PRC, sometimes I wonder if it's true.

WiFi is required so that people get help in filling out various forms for federal assistance and can get out of the rut of poverty and homelessness. One of the stumbling blocks for homeless people is that they do not have an address that can be given in the forms. WiFi also helps the workers in the shelter to direct the shelter users to local jobs, sending/receiving emails on their behalf, and possibly train them through online courses. please remember most of these people are operationally literate and are able to read and write. They can perform adequately in a basic job.

Your tax dollars at work and for a good cause is how I see it.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 03:26**

LokeshC wrote:There is no country on planet earth that is more harsh on its poor than the US.

Welfare bums in America live better than most "middle class" Indians. And yet they still commit crimes out of all proportion to their #'s. It's actually not something the US should be proud of; quite disgraceful actually.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 03:32**

The biggest problem for the poor in America is that they are held on a very tight leash. One wrong step, one mistake and you end up trapped in a system that keeps you poor. And as a poor desperate person, you are highly likely to make mistakes, miss deadlines and act out of desperation.

I initially thought that it was more of an accident, but I have now come to believe that to some extent it is by design.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 03:36**

Poor people are 'contained' in massa. First the projects and now the jails.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 03:45**

Higher incarceration rate is also due to strict administration and interpretation of law, you do the crime, you will do the time. Can you think what % of Indians will end up behind bars if similar strict standard was applied in India?

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 03:55**

LokeshC wrote:There is no country on planet earth that is more harsh on its poor than the US.

My views are diametrically opposite to you, there are very few countries where poor are treated better than US.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 03:56**

US laws for Indics is enough to reduce the population by 1/2 in 1/2 century by way of riots, arson, violence and uncontrollable situation to break India into 25 countries. Africa would then be destination for many BPL SDRE and loving friends.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 04:08**

Dipanker wrote:
LokeshC wrote:There is no country on planet earth that is more harsh on its poor than the US.
My views are diametrically opposite to you, there are very few countries where poor are treated better than US.

Did not expect them to be any different, you have made it very clear on here before.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 04:19**

LokeshC wrote:
Did not expect them to be any different, you have made it very clear on here before.

Yes, I try to be objective, go by the facts and figures.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 04:25**

Trolling aint my intention sir, if that is what you are implying.

Neither is rhetoric. I am not in a position right now to write on what I have collected (and I think i made that clear above), so I will come back with that when I get a chance so that you can go through , if you care.

Until then, you have a good day.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 05:45**

Dipanker wrote:Higher incarceration rate is also due to strict administration and interpretation of law, you do the crime, you will do the time. Can you think what % of Indians will end up behind bars if similar strict standard was applied in India?

I disagree with this assessment. In India we have lax law enforcement and it takes forever to resolve cases through various courts. Coupled with corruption and lack of jury system (this is where I agree with Rahul Mehta) India also has a very low resolution of disputes that are settled once a case gets to court. In the US, there is a disproportionate number of non-white persons in local jails and prisons. African American and Hispanics face the letter and intent of the law. Whites are often let go by police, judges and juries.

The Indian system is fine if it can quickly adjudicate cases and avoid police and judges corruption.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 05:56**

All are right in their own ways regarding law and punishment based on their own experience

My thoughts
USA implements law and order wherever possible.
Trials are very expensive. Less than 10% go the full extent of law Trials hearing etc.
The outcome is not the truth.
It is just who has the better evidence among the 2 parties on the day of judgement.
Advantage is relatively less pending cases as 90% gets solved at initial stages itself.

Many a time common american thinks twice thrice before going to Trials etc. They look for plea bargain etc even if they have not committed the crime or as ny other avenue.

Hence rich american can literally buy justice legally.

In India implementing law is a task by itself. The truth in India is for the absolute truth and not the necessarily the the truth as in USA. But many a time justice is bought or goes against common Indian.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 06:28**

NRao wrote: From the days of the Silk Road, the ability to travel has given individuals in any society to say FO.

Children, spouses and employees. The moment there is disagreement one of the parties has the ability to very easily relocate.

This has always, for centuries, placed an undue stress on societies and in many cases torn them apart.

Short story. There are great benefits in near terms, but generally longer terms one will experience a fragmentation.

Check to see if India is facing aged parents living by themselves, housing for the old aged, etc. First indicator.

These are very well studied and documented topics.

NRaoji,

Interesting analysis. The major metros in India are too congested. Quick surface transport will allow people to live further away from these metros where they will be able to commute. It will also lead to urban sprawl. In India we put a lot of burden on the daughter-in-law. Now that women are becoming better educated and entering the work force, they will no longer tolerate a stressful situation with the in-laws and will divorce. This will cause a break down of the extended family in India as we know it today. The loss is the passing down of knowledge from grandparents to grandchildren. It will have repercussions, but not the same as we see it in the US. US society has already seen a breakdown of the extended family to the nuclear family as it went from a pastoral society to an urban society from the turn of the last century to WWII. Today the US is seeing a break down of the nuclear family to one that favors individualism, but the pendulum has swung too far with too many single moms in dire financial straights. In India we are 50 years behind the US socially. Hopefully we can learn the right social lessons going forward.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 07:24**

Dipanker wrote:Higher incarceration rate is also due to strict administration and interpretation of law, you do the crime, you will do the time. Can you think what % of Indians will end up behind bars if similar strict standard was applied in India?

Prisons in the US are a huge for-profit enterprise. They call it the "prison industrial complex". It's the reason US locks up a higher % of its population than any other nation on earth.

We don't have a ridiculous "War on Drugs" in India because we don't have a prison industrial complex that must be fed. We don't lock up millions of people for smoking cannabis (how insane is that?), but in the US it's totally normal to see people serving long prison sentences for just that. And what's amazing is Americans think this is totally normal.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 07:33**

Y Kannan Saar, just saw your post.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 08:11**

Y. Kanan wrote:..And what's amazing is Americans think this is totally normal.

smoking cannabis or going to prison?

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 09:33**

Y. Kanan wrote: Welfare bums in America live better than most "middle class" Indians. And yet they still commit crimes out of all proportion to their #'s. It's actually not something the US should be proud of; quite disgraceful actually.

Boss, it is all relative. One needs to normalize or else it is an invalid comparison - apples vs. aam.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 09:37**

Gus wrote:Poor people are 'contained' in massa. First the projects and now the jails.

Gus: do you mean housing projects? What is wrong with them? At the lowest level they are a roof to take a breather under and it is an address to receive mail.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 11:30**

Amber G. wrote:
LokeshC wrote:Ever heard of the inquisitions?
Even when I try to avoid AAUP and other trash like that, I get to hear about this, and 1000 genocides and programs and ethnic cleaning .. not to mention 10000000000 troops in Cashemere, rapes and what not. Haters do what they do best, talk endlessly about inquisitions.. massacres etc..

To most of us, it does not impress. Cry as much as these haters cry about Gujarat 2002, the SC of india, was not impressed nor did people of India elected NaMo. Similarly cry as much as these haters cry about "inquisitions" or ISIS (to being images of slitting throats).. there is no court which has indicted Pope.. not to mention a million people gathered to watch him had same respect for him as thousands who gathered to watch Modi..

Let me ask for a small favor. There are many dhagas in brf where you can talk about inquisitions, or your love/hate for other topics ..so please take it there. PLEASE DO NOT derail this thread. thank you.

On the one hand you claim everyone else apart from you/BRF is coming up with fake claims etc. When data is given to you, you try and compare it with Indian Army's ops in Kashmir. Do you seriously think people here can't see through these antics in trying to malign the Indian Army with such fake claims and trying to put NaMo on the same page? So the Goa inquisition and the people who were butchered there didn't happen? Did the IA put out a circular asking Muslims to leave Kashmir and start destroying religious places as policy?

Fr. Diogo da Borba and his advisor Vicar General, Miguel Vaz had made plans for converting the Hindus. Under this plan Viceroy António de Noronha issued in 1566, an order applicable to the entire area under Portuguese rule:

I hereby order that in any area owned by my master, the king, nobody should construct a Hindu temple and such temples already constructed should not be repaired without my permission. If this order is transgressed, such temples shall be, destroyed and the goods in them shall be used to meet expenses of holy deeds, as punishment of such transgression.

In 1567, the campaign of destroying temples in Bardez met with "success". At the end of it, 300 Hindu temples were destroyed. Enacting laws, prohibition was laid from 4 December 1567 on rituals of Hindu marriages, sacred thread wearing and cremation. All the persons above 15 years of age were compelled to listen to Christian preaching, failing which they were punished. In 1583, Hindu temples at Assolna and Cuncolim were destroyed through army action.

"The fathers of the Church forbade the Hindus under terrible penalties the use of their own sacred books, and prevented them from all exercise of their religion. They destroyed their temples, and so harassed and interfered with the people that they abandoned the city in large numbers, refusing to remain any longer in a place where they had no liberty, and were liable to imprisonment, torture and death if they worshipped after their own fashion the gods of their fathers." wrote Filippo Sassetti, who was in India from 1578 to 1588.

In 1620, an order was passed to prohibit the Hindus from performing their marriage rituals.[25] An order was issued in June 1684 for suppressing the Konkani language and making it compulsory to speak the Portuguese language. The law provided for dealing toughly with anyone using the local language. Following that law all the non-Christian cultural symbols and the books written in local languages were sought to be destroyed.[26] Charles Dellon experienced first hand the cruelty of the Inquisition's agents.[27] He published a book in 1687 describing his experiences in Goa. L'Inquisition de Goa (The Inquisition of Goa).[27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

So did the Crusades magically disappear? The history of persecution of anyone different?
The manner in which political power has been sought. What of this?
What of this? http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-09-18/s ... -molesters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Cat ... in_Ireland

In short, don't get snippy with people who hold a different view.

The current pope may be a good person and trying to face up to a lot of these issues, but equally there is a lot in the past which has been written and documented and doesn't need rhetoric to wave it away.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 17:03**

UlanBatori wrote:This dhaga reminds me of my kindergarten advisor's square-shaped coffee mug. Philosophical interpretations in parentheses are mine, having watched these at every weekly or other meeting starting the day I arrived in kindergarten.
The One Thing Money Can't Buy: Poverty

But is opposite of poverty- Wealth? Its justice. If you have equal access to justice, there is no problem with accessing and enjoying unlimited wealth. In the US the social contract has broken down.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 22:11**

<POOF>

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 22:25**

<POOF>

Amber G, stop baiting others. Report if you find anything that is not right. Others, please desist responses - Admin

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 22:52**

LokeshC wrote:Ever heard of the inquisitions?

Check up on what happened to Hypatia, lady mathematician after Constantine declared Xianity as State religion.
While at it check on Charlemagne's methods of Saving the Gauls in France.

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 23:32**

The original post which was edited by some entity who did not even want to sign it.. is deleted by author.

It was an admin note and it said as much. You are being given a formal warning for tampering with it, since that message was not just about your trolling, but about others as well - Admin

Posted: **05 Oct 2015 23:43**

Amberji,

I respect you a lot, I have learned a lot from you. I am often very caustic when criticizing people's actions and also very caustic on my opinions of the authoritative positions that they hold, either by birth or by choice.

Even though my opinions are caustic, they are never ever personal, especially towards people on the same side. My post was criticizing the pope, it was not aimed at trying to pass judgement on your choice to post it here. I was not judging you, I was trying to give my "arm-chair" opinion on what the pope was trying to achieve politically in umrika.

I just hope we can agree to disagree and move on.

Posted: **06 Oct 2015 01:38**

vayu tuvan wrote: Gus: do you mean housing projects? What is wrong with them? At the lowest level they are a roof to take a breather under and it is an address to receive mail.

projects were a means to just move poor people (blacks) away from sight into places.

grouping poor people together will only make it worse for them.

there's a reason why no more projects were built.

they were a horrible failure.

Posted: **06 Oct 2015 01:39**

They were a horrible failure because the poor were not allowed to take responsibility and ownership for their own living accommodations. If you give responsibility and ownership to the poor, a large majority will take control and make their living conditions much better. You have to allow them to maintain as they see fit and give them support to maintain or improve living conditions.

Posted: **06 Oct 2015 01:43**

Dipanker wrote:Higher incarceration rate is also due to strict administration and interpretation of law, you do the crime, you will do the time. Can you think what % of Indians will end up behind bars if similar strict standard was applied in India?

rah rah usa usa..

explain why white/rich folks get off with lower enforcement and lower incarceration rates and gets minimum sentences for SAME crime.

keep all this "it's the law, do crime do time blah blah".. to some starry eyed FOB or MUTU type please.

don't bring india here. you cannot compare a country with hundreds of issues like immediate enemy countries, poor national integration and nationalistic consciousness, section of people being outright traitors, no spare money to spend for social welfare etc to

the richest and most developed country that treats its poor as basically a problem to be incarcerated, hidden and contained and their aspirations is only allowed to go up to the level of working multiple minimum wage jobs to just make ends meet.

Bharat Rakshak

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