IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 03 Sep 2015 19:18

Austin wrote:Dive Toss bombing is still an effective method of nuclear delivery if you need man in loop till the last second

Have a man-in-the-loop till the last second but to what end? For tactical purposes, a missile (equipped with a low yield warhead) can be employed with same (or higher) degree of accuracy than a dumb bomb. And a missile strike too can be aborted at any time before impact.

The difference of course is that in one case, pilot's life is at serious risk while a missile launch is virtually risk free (the consequences of the mission are a different matter). However, if the threat environment has already been degraded to the point where a Rafale can employ a gravity bomb without issue, well... nothing stops us from using the Su-30MKI or Mirage 2000 instead.

But Rafale has the advantage that the french would allow it to be hardwired for N delivery and the fact that french them self use Rafale for N Delivery wont be lost on Indian Strategic forces

Except that the French do not use the Rafale for the same job. The last French free-fall nuclear bomb was the AN-52 and it was retired and replaced by the ASMP in the early nineties.

These things would happen quietly like WOP books says without much fan fare

Given the history of the program, the nuclear angle certainly doesn't justify the purchase.

The MMRCA had its genesis in a Mirage deal, which obvious delivered no capability that the IAF did not already possess. Of the six aircraft invited to participate in the process, only one type was cleared for toss bombing (F-16). The technical down-select identified two aircraft as meeting the grade, nuclear capability was again clearly not a factor here. And finally, the MMRCA deal was scrapped and a direct off-the-shelf purchase without ToT/indigenization implemented instead (no independent weapons integration).

To now explain this as a very necessary addition of a 4th (or possibly 5th) nuclear-capable type to the IAF's fighter fleet comes off a rationalisation rather than explanation.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 03 Sep 2015 22:30

While the French side was amiable to an offset clause that requires it to invest 50% of the value of the contract in India, this was substantially increasing the cost of the deal. The government is wary of purchasing the aircraft at a higher price than nations such as Egypt and Qatar that recently struck deals without any offset conditions, officials said. This could evoke a strong political reaction at home, they said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Sep 2015 09:49

Viv S wrote:Have a man-in-the-loop till the last second but to what end? For tactical purposes, a missile (equipped with a low yield warhead) can be employed with same (or higher) degree of accuracy than a dumb bomb. And a missile strike too can be aborted at any time before impact.

You have missile , free fall bomb , stand off weapon all kind of things in the armour for N delivery , each has its own purpose

Previously M2K was known to be used for Free Fall Delivery and hard wired for it with tacit support of french , Now Rafale takes that role with both stand off and free fall delivery.

Most likely what remains unsaid is these would be hardened against EMP effect hence the cost. Vishnu was stating of the excellent low level delivery of Rafale

Makes Good Read Thunder at 100 feet: Flying France's Rafale Superfighter

Even the US is working on Free Fall/Glide weapon for JSF

http://theweek.com/articles/552119/amer ... smart-nuke

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Sep 2015 10:56

well given that the distance from NE india to even the nearest major cities in PRC - chonqing and chengdu are 1000km one way, do we really want to break the bank on this role thats useful only against TSP.

I mean we have 10 other means to flatten TSP in worst case.

if at all we want reliable n-delivery spend $5b in building up agni5 and agni2-at and agni-1 inventory.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Sep 2015 11:07

Singha wrote:well given that the distance from NE india to even the nearest major cities in PRC - chonqing and chengdu are 1000km one way, do we really want to break the bank on this role thats useful only against TSP.

I mean we have 10 other means to flatten TSP in worst case.

if at all we want reliable n-delivery spend $5b in building up agni5 and agni2-at and agni-1 inventory.

Nuclear detterence is as much about deterrence as it is about weapons , A man in loop in aircraft using free fall or glide bomb is more of political statement in times of crisis , while a missile would simply be crossing the threshold

If what you say is true then why do countries using bombers or cruise missile when BM can just the job as much as fast and in 10 times quicker time , pin point accuracy is not a requirement for N delivery.

In Nuclear Bombing Role say with a single 500 kg 20 Kt Free Fall/Glide Bomb with 3 Drop Tank and MICA , the Rafale can penetrate quite deep , low and fast , Check Vishnu article on Rafale Low Level Capability prretty much amazing and nothing much in our inventory today has that kind of capability , add Spectra and other ding dong IAF would add to it

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Sep 2015 11:24

Folks did French def min go home from Malaysia? Wasn't he supposed to come to India to sign Rafallay deal?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Sep 2015 11:36

shiv wrote:Folks did French def min go home from Malaysia? Wasn't he supposed to come to India to sign Rafallay deal?

There was news he would delay the trip , Not sure if he is coming to sign the deal or just routine visit

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 04 Sep 2015 17:09

Austin wrote:
Nuclear detterence is as much about deterrence as it is about weapons , A man in loop in aircraft using free fall or glide bomb is more of political statement in times of crisis , while a missile would simply be crossing the threshold

If what you say is true then why do countries using bombers or cruise missile when BM can just the job as much as fast and in 10 times quicker time , pin point accuracy is not a requirement for N delivery.

In Nuclear Bombing Role say with a single 500 kg 20 Kt Free Fall/Glide Bomb with 3 Drop Tank and MICA , the Rafale can penetrate quite deep , low and fast , Check Vishnu article on Rafale Low Level Capability prretty much amazing and nothing much in our inventory today has that kind of capability , add Spectra and other ding dong IAF would add to it

There is no point in parroting western literature such as "man in loop" etc. For India it makes absolutely no sense to have 36 gold plated aircraft to deliver free fall n bombs to China. More on this later. There are fundamental reasons that western countries still have free fall bombs delivered from aircraft. The answer is range and accessbility of their primary targets e.g. Moscow and St. Petersburg from NATO countries such as Poland, Latvia, Estonia. Look at those distances, Moscow is no more than 1200 kms from Warsaw, an ever shorter distance from Latvia or Estonia. St. Petersburg is even less. And that western heartland of Russia from the Polish border across Belarus to Moscow is a target rich environment for free fall n bombs or n missiles. As such even the JSF is hardwired to carry in its internal bay and to deliver the B-61 free fall bomb which can be tuned to deliver over 300kt. Take out that western heartland of Russia and Russia ceases to exist as a European nation which is what it identifies itself as.

For the India/China standoff, the situation is in China's favour. New Delhi is less than a 1000 kms from major missile launch sites in Tibet, the entire Gangetic plain and Eastern India are similarly less than 1000 kms from Chinese launch sites. Take out that portion of India with free fall or n missiles and India is decimated. In contrast, where is the Rafale going to fly "low and fast and penetrate", to Yunan provnce or Guizhou province at the most. What is Yunan province in the overall scheme of things for China, its something like Agartala being wiped out for India or maybe Dibrugarh. To hurt China and to be a real deterrent, you have to take out the rich provinces which are all on the eastern coast of China, or the political leadership in Beijing, thousands of kilometers from India. They will never be accessible to the Rafale, its either the Agni 4/5 or carrier borne aircraft from the South/East China seas.

So India has to come up with a strategy and tools to implement that strategy which solves its problem, not parrot Western literature and tactics which were developed to solve their problems.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Sep 2015 17:35

^^ IF they think the concept of Air Craft based Nuclear Deterrent wasnt valid at all then they wouldnt be buying Rafale .... All kind of Nuclear Weapons are part of deterrent from Free Fall to Agni-5 to deter China. Each has it own usefulness.

I am sure if required the Rafale in future can also carry a Nuclear Armed Nirbhai or a Brahmos-M for stand off capability....just need right tool for the right job and full spectrum capability

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 04 Sep 2015 17:42

Austin wrote:^^ IF they think the concept of Air Craft based Nuclear Deterrent wasnt valid at all then they wouldnt be buying Rafale .... All kind of Nuclear Weapons are part of deterrent from Free Fall to Agni-5 to deter China. Each has it own usefulness.

I am sure if required the Rafale in future can also carry a Nuclear Armed Nirbhai or a Brahmos-M for stand off capability....just need right tool for the right job and full spectrum capability

The French are buying the Rafale for many many different reasons, all of them because they make sense for France, not for India. France wants an aerospace manufacturing base, France wants an independent nuclear deterrent, French aircraft like other NATO aircraft will be able to bomb St. Petersburg and Moscow once the USAF has sanitized the airspace over western Russia. None of that holds true for India as I have pointed out in my post above. So the Rafale as a n delivery platform against China makes no sense. For Pakistan, why would you want to spend $9 billion when existing tools can do the job as effectively.

To me, the n delivery reason looks like an afterthought excuse or the scary explanation is that India's missile delivery system is woefully inadequate even against Pakistan, sincerely hope that is not the case.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Sep 2015 17:52

It may make no sense to you but it makes sense for MOD/IAF hence investing in silver bullet option , There may be something IAF/MOD is aware of Rafales capability that we may not , Else MKI was also an option.

I think a Rafale with 2 or 3 Big Drop Tank ~ 2000L Tank , One 20kT Boosted Weapon and couple of MICA would offer Interesting capability in terms of range , Dassault has also demonstrated CFT for Rafale. As a package Rafale is beautiful with many nice capabilities we dont have yet.

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-con ... e_nr_2.pdf

Lets see how things pan out in weeks ahead .....when the deal gets signed we might hear more on this

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 04 Sep 2015 18:01

The question is what is that interesting capability of a 2000 l drop tank and one 20 kt boosted weapon going to achieve? Drop it somewhere in the wilds of south western China against some mountain rockface (assuming that it can get past Chinese air defence) where it will be pinprick for China? For $ 9 billion. Total waste of money. The Rafale may be beautiful, but you buy aircraft and spend money for the utility that they have for you not for their asthetic beauty. For France the Rafale certainly has interesting capabilities not so much for India.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Sep 2015 18:04

ldev wrote:The question is what is that interesting capability of a 2000 l drop tank and one 20 kt boosted weapon going to achieve? Drop it somewhere in the wilds of south western China against some mountain rockface (assuming that it can get past Chinese air defence) where it will be pinprick for China? For $ 9 billion. Total waste of money. The Rafale may be beautiful, but you buy aircraft and spend money for the utility that they have for you not for their asthetic beauty.

What ever interesting capability they offer the IAF/MOD might be well aware of it , We dont even know what capability of M2K hardwired for Nuclear Role and its been in service for close to 3 decades.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 04 Sep 2015 18:09

^^That's a fair assumption.

IMO these 36 might end up with SFC.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 04 Sep 2015 18:11

Austin wrote:
ldev wrote:The question is what is that interesting capability of a 2000 l drop tank and one 20 kt boosted weapon going to achieve? Drop it somewhere in the wilds of south western China against some mountain rockface (assuming that it can get past Chinese air defence) where it will be pinprick for China? For $ 9 billion. Total waste of money. The Rafale may be beautiful, but you buy aircraft and spend money for the utility that they have for you not for their asthetic beauty.
What ever interesting capability they offer the IAF/MOD might be well aware of it , We dont even know what capability of M2K hardwired for Nuclear Role and its been in service for close to 3 decades.

The Mirage 2000 made sense. It was inducted when the Agni series was not ready for n delivery and was a primary platform. Today hopefully the Agni 1 is fully operational against Pakistan and is the primary delivery platform. The Mirage 2000 continues to serve as a secondary strike capability against Pakistan. It has recently been upgraded at great cost and will be active for a long time. So why the Rafale as a SFC tool? And that too for $ 9 billion.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 04 Sep 2015 18:14

Austin wrote: Nuclear detterence is as much about deterrence as it is about weapons , A man in loop in aircraft using free fall or glide bomb is more of political statement in times of crisis , while a missile would simply be crossing the threshold....

How will you make your adversary know that your a/c's are equipped with nuclear gravity bombs and are in deterrence mode. My point is , M2k we know can deliver nuclear bombs but if they are based near border , will the pakis take that as deterrence or we have to send pictures to paki about our M2k's being rigged with bombs and they are meant for them, will that act as a deterrence ??

The best way to deter your adversary is by moving some Ballistic missiles near the border , now whether those are nuclear tipped or not, doesn't matter. The other means is by using bombers , high flying , supersonic with long loitering time , which ofcourse we are lacking . I just don't understand what this Rafale will bring into the table

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 04 Sep 2015 18:17

For the SFC role we had plans for separate 42 SU30's configured for that role.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Sep 2015 18:19

We dont even know what capability of M2K hardwired for Nuclear Role and its been in service for close to 3 decades.

Good. That is exactly what is needed. The more confusion, the better, else it would be silly.

On the flip side India hardly any other component in her triad until recently. So, it is safe to assume that those planes capable of dropping a bomb are wired. Perhaps not all.

Then comes another dimension Pakistan vs. China. The planes India has are capable of covering Pakistan. Again, I have to assume that was a priority - until recently. IF that assumption is right then the current efforts are for covering China. And, that I assume is still evolving.

In short, everythign seems to be going according to planS. Else it is good we know nothing.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 04 Sep 2015 18:24

If the idea is all about covering lizard with a/c rigged with gravity bombs , then it had to be some supersonic bomber.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Sep 2015 18:32

Shaun wrote:How will you make your adversary know that your a/c's are equipped with nuclear gravity bombs and are in deterrence mode. My point is , M2k we know can deliver nuclear bombs but if they are based near border , will the pakis take that as deterrence or we have to send pictures to paki about our M2k's being rigged with bombs and they are meant for them, will it act as a deterrence ??

You can tell them in simple english.

Or you just let their intelligence work a little more harder to figure that out , Its just a political message below the threshold of Nuclear Detterence.

Remember during the days of SAC the US bombers used to fly 24x7 in Nuclear Role in some place near SU , so that if things heat up they can be put into action , it was part of political message

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 04 Sep 2015 18:33

ldev wrote:In contrast, where is the Rafale going to fly "low and fast and penetrate", to Yunan provnce or Guizhou province at the most. What is Yunan province in the overall scheme of things for China, its something like Agartala being wiped out for India or maybe Dibrugarh. To hurt China and to be a real deterrent, you have to take out the rich provinces which are all on the eastern coast of China, or the political leadership in Beijing, thousands of kilometers from India. They will never be accessible to the Rafale, its either the Agni 4/5 or carrier borne aircraft from the South/East China seas.

On the other hand, they may view nuking huge cities as an unviable threat or unacceptable politically, so may intend to use them more tactically on enemy force concentrations.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 04 Sep 2015 18:41

Austin wrote:
Shaun wrote:How will you make your adversary know that your a/c's are equipped with nuclear gravity bombs and are in deterrence mode. My point is , M2k we know can deliver nuclear bombs but if they are based near border , will the pakis take that as deterrence or we have to send pictures to paki about our M2k's being rigged with bombs and they are meant for them, will it act as a deterrence ??
You can tell them in simple english.

Or you just let their intelligence work a little more harder to figure that out , Its just a political message below the threshold of Nuclear Detterence.

Remember during the days of SAC the US bombers used to fly 24x7 in Nuclear Role in some place near SU , so that if things heat up they can be put into action , it was part of political message

USAF bomber in strategic role was advertised with all kind of DEFCON warning , how will you apply that with IAF M2k with present nuclear NFU doctrine ???

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 04 Sep 2015 18:42

If 36 are coming at 8-9 billion, we can only assume how much 126 would have cost us. No wonder Mr. Parikar was singing praise for MKI. Also survivability of a Rafale, with nuclear deterrence role, cannot be guaranteed in dense air defense environment.

Only option is to go above all their defenses, aka ballistic route. If not SFC, they may be used for air-dominance and top cover considering they have superior electronic warfare and defense systems.

IAF has kept M2K and Rafale (Indian) specifications under wraps. Even there are no details on M2K upgrades justifying their uber expensive price tag.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 04 Sep 2015 18:43

GeorgeWelch wrote:
ldev wrote:In contrast, where is the Rafale going to fly "low and fast and penetrate", to Yunan provnce or Guizhou province at the most. What is Yunan province in the overall scheme of things for China, its something like Agartala being wiped out for India or maybe Dibrugarh. To hurt China and to be a real deterrent, you have to take out the rich provinces which are all on the eastern coast of China, or the political leadership in Beijing, thousands of kilometers from India. They will never be accessible to the Rafale, its either the Agni 4/5 or carrier borne aircraft from the South/East China seas.
On the other hand, they may view nuking huge cities as an unviable threat or unacceptable politically, so may intend to use them more tactically on enemy force concentrations.

India's stated policy is "no first use", but "massive retaliation" in case it is a target. Tactical use against enemy force concentrations does not appear to fit into the current retaliatory stance.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Sep 2015 19:19

This whole nuclear delivery angle might sound like a fig leaf, but some jingos might recall the french offer for 40 rfales about 10 years ago...instead of mki, and beyond the mrca contest as an interim solution or possibly as sfc force, could have been much cheaper then. Typically, GOI has moved on it years later when the cost has gone up considerably... much like the scorpene deal or the mirage upgrade. Well done.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 04 Sep 2015 19:46

the way French are trying to save their aircraft industry , wish we too have the same vigor and determination to save our indigenous capabilities .

See how they are using media to promote their product. An Indian TV journalist was given permission to fly and see the PR benefits it is generating .

THE GREAT INDIAN CIRCUS

The plan was for an a/c to arrest depleting squadrons and the choice was for M2K , things changed with a acronym called MMRCA ( Mother -Father of all defense acquisitions ) , with 2-3 years of non stop testing and evaluation , Rafale emerged as winner , 108 ( with more additional a/cs )were to be acquired and TOT for producing it in India itself . Turned out to be super duper costly with no TOT , now the numbers have been reduced to 3 squadrons , even that is proving costly !!!!!! Now to prove that they are indeed costly , they are being leveled as nuclear delivery platform !!!!

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 04 Sep 2015 20:12

In a conventional standoff with China, India needs to deliver a swift, decisive blow to the Chinese which will make them pause and rethink aggression against India. China is a command structure, a huge loss will deliver a psychological blow which will shake the foundations of the Chinese Communist Party e.g. in an aerial standoff India should be capable of downing something like 40 of the 50 J10s and J11s the PLAAF operates out of Tibet within the first 1-2 days and knock out missile sites 500 kms in China as a demonstration of the IAF's reach and penetration. That will make the Chinese pause and give India another 50 years of peace. Hence I advocated the JSF. It is advertised as having that door kicker capability. Does it really? I don't know, but the IAF should evaluate it to find out whether the reality is equal to the hype. I have serious doubts whether the Rafale will ever be able to deliver that kind of psychological impact to make the Chinese pause. And tell the US, don't worry, we will not use it against your munna to the west, but against China our interests converge, you will also be interested in taking them down a peg or two.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 04 Sep 2015 20:15

now we have progressed to JSF !!!!!!!!( no offence , no offence )

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 04 Sep 2015 20:21

Shaun wrote: now we have progressed to JSF !!!!!!!!( no offence , no offence )

Hey, whatever fits the need!!

If sat recon and drones can identify mobile missile launchers and aircraft on PLAAF bases in Tibet, Yunan etc. in real time and a combination of Brahmos/Nirbhay have the accuracy, why not either?

But I presume the IAF is run by fighter pilot types who love to fly nice planes. So if they want a shiny new toy, then why not get one which is shiny but can also do the job?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Sep 2015 20:30

ldev wrote:In a conventional standoff with China, India needs to deliver a swift, decisive blow to the Chinese which will make them pause and rethink aggression against India. China is a command structure, a huge loss will deliver a psychological blow which will shake the foundations of the Chinese Communist Party e.g. in an aerial standoff India should be capable of downing something like 40 of the 50 J10s and J11s the PLAAF operates out of Tibet within the first 1-2 days and knock out missile sites 500 kms in China as a demonstration of the IAF's reach and penetration. That will make the Chinese pause and give India another 50 years of peace. Hence I advocated the JSF. It is advertised as having that door kicker capability. Does it really? I don't know, but the IAF should evaluate it to find out whether the reality is equal to the hype. I have serious doubts whether the Rafale will ever be able to deliver that kind of psychological impact to make the Chinese pause. And tell the US, don't worry, we will not use it against your munna to the west, but against China our interests converge, you will also be interested in taking them down a peg or two.

ldev there are a lot of assumptions in that post

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 04 Sep 2015 20:34

shiv wrote:
ldev wrote:In a conventional standoff with China, India needs to deliver a swift, decisive blow to the Chinese which will make them pause and rethink aggression against India. China is a command structure, a huge loss will deliver a psychological blow which will shake the foundations of the Chinese Communist Party e.g. in an aerial standoff India should be capable of downing something like 40 of the 50 J10s and J11s the PLAAF operates out of Tibet within the first 1-2 days and knock out missile sites 500 kms in China as a demonstration of the IAF's reach and penetration. That will make the Chinese pause and give India another 50 years of peace. Hence I advocated the JSF. It is advertised as having that door kicker capability. Does it really? I don't know, but the IAF should evaluate it to find out whether the reality is equal to the hype. I have serious doubts whether the Rafale will ever be able to deliver that kind of psychological impact to make the Chinese pause. And tell the US, don't worry, we will not use it against your munna to the west, but against China our interests converge, you will also be interested in taking them down a peg or two.
ldev there are a lot of assumptions in that post

Yes, there are, but one has to start somewhere with some basic assumptions. What is clear is that loss of face is unacceptable to the CPC, that much is indisputable. For the rest, one can try and test the validity of the assumptions. Some may need to be revised, but one will hopefully come up with a more coherent strategy for India.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 04 Sep 2015 20:40

how will you put gold plated rafale into the above picture???

Other than some high intensity short period border conflict at LAC , i don't foresee any major direct conflict between India and China. Like the cold war times when US and Soviet Russia never had direct confrontation but used proxies , China too using bakis as its major proxy , well India can play the same game using Vietnam but do GOI have the appetite for that.

Yeah that doesn't mean we stop adding capabilities ( that itself will act as deterrence from direct chinese aggression) and it will be better in long term, if we can strengthen it with indigenous equipments.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 04 Sep 2015 20:50

>>how will you put gold plated rafale into the above picture???

I don't see the Rafale fitting in anywhere at all hence the series of posts. The Rafale is useful neither in a nuclear delivery role nor a conventional role where it will overwhelm the PLAAF via its penetrative ability or air dominance.

As I said, the Brahmos/Nirbay/Agni 1 combination used conventionally in a saturation mode i.e. hundreds of them with real time sat recon can achieve the same objective at a much lower cost. If the IAF like most other airforces want a manned aircraft, then get one most likely to get the job done.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 04 Sep 2015 20:57

ldev wrote: ...

But I presume the IAF is run by fighter pilot types who love to fly nice planes. So if they want a shiny new toy, then why not get one which is shiny but can also do the job?

While the 'bold' is true, they also draw up the plans for air warfare, strategy and battle tactics. This is their domain and professional sphere and in this they are good. It is also a fact that most of the present lot have flown Mig 21's most of the time - not new and shiny. They have flown the Mig 21's and a few have graduated to more capable platforms. In either case they have excelled in various exercises (as they should be expected to).

New shiny planes - The EF was newer but it was not the newness that decided MMRCA. JSF will have the American baggage of restrictions, inspections etc. Plus it was never on offer.

If the Rafale is for Nuclear deterrence , the delivery plans (battle tactics) from aircraft are far more sophisticated than what is being discussed here. Apart from actual battle tactics, there is the whole issue of having the capability to deliver Nukes from multiple platforms - not just the best platform. Keeps the enemy guessing and makes it that much difficult to develop counter measures.

CM's, BM's, SLBM's were developed despite the fact that only BM's would suffice for Nuke delivery. War time pushed to a Nuke scenario will not be so coherent and decision makers will rely on multiple options. The same will be true for the enemy too. Again, here it appears to be an assumption that Rafale = China.

Why would a platform be restricted to one border when it will have the most demoralizing effect on the other border. The IAF will cross deploy and train for all options and that is a certainty, if and when the Rafale comes.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 04 Sep 2015 21:04

Rafale do have technology which can suppress any chinese junks put on air ( i am going by the assumption , western maal will fair better ) but what affect can 3 squadrons make???

My assumption is with the IAF putting all its weight on it , GOI have given green signal ( don't know where it will end ) . Once the 1st a/c lands here , expect more orders ( guess it will go through K to MKI route)

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 04 Sep 2015 21:21

While the 'bold' is true, they also draw up the plans for air warfare, strategy and battle tactics. This is their domain and professional sphere and in this they are good. It is also a fact that most of the present lot have flown Mig 21's most of the time - not new and shiny. They have flown the Mig 21's and a few have graduated to more capable platforms. In either case they have excelled in various exercises (as they should be expected to).

Agreed. The IAF truly utilizes not 100% of what an aircraft has to offer, but 110%!! And after flying Mig 21s for various reasons, political and economic in the past, if today the IAF can get the best available in the world, all power to them.

But my point in the last few posts is about the larger picture of what constitutes deterrence, nuclear as well as conventional, and the tools and tactics that are needed for it. And if there is a conflict, then what will be the most effective way of ending it asap on India's terms. Within the context of the tools the IAF has or will get, it will certainly do the most effective job that it can, there is no doubt about it, it has demonstrated that in the past. The question is what should those tools be and there are other services drawn into that equation as well as MOD/NSA etc.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 04 Sep 2015 21:46

sorry to say you are going OT and speaking gibberish !!

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 04 Sep 2015 22:03

Has anyone considered the Rafale being deployed from A&N during war time for strategic tasks? While it is true that Chinese mainland cities are hard to reach from our mainland bases flying over the Himalaya+Tibet/Myanmar, deploying from A&N puts Hainan and maybe Hong Kong/Shenzhen within reach, wouldn't it? Hainan is definitely a strategic high-value target, considering it is housing PLAN sub bases and a bunch of PLAAF bases to protect them. It's also not as much a civilian centre like Hong Kong (I don't see us targeting civilian targets unless left with no option), and still can deliver the loss of face that they want to avoid at all costs. Throw in a tanker and a few Su-30 MKI escorts for CAP, you have a nice package. Though the Su-30 themselves are capable of this role (see Vivek Ahuja's book Chimera), maybe the IAF has some reasons for choosing an alternate fighter, and I think this is an option they can exercise. What do gurus think?

Pitting 36 gold plated Rafales in an all out confrontation over Tibet is far-fetched. The Rafales will be too few and too expensive for us to do so, and we have other capable fighters to do that job. Again, Chimera has a detailed engagement covering this very scenario.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 04 Sep 2015 22:18

Rafale steadily transforming itself from omnirole to omnipotent with each passing posts !!!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Sep 2015 01:30

Austin wrote:You have missile , free fall bomb , stand off weapon all kind of things in the armour for N delivery , each has its own purpose

Previously M2K was known to be used for Free Fall Delivery and hard wired for it with tacit support of french , Now Rafale takes that role with both stand off and free fall delivery.

Only 'free fall' not 'stand off'. The stand-off strikes will be performed either by ground-launched Nirbhays or air-launched variants BrahMos/Nirbhays from the IAF's Super Sukhois.

And again, what is salient advantage of a free-fall bomb vis a vis a missile? There's only one major role and that is as a 'bunker-buster' (for exceptionally well hardened subterranean targets). And even that could be done via missile if they had to. Works for the French at least.

Most likely what remains unsaid is these would be hardened against EMP effect hence the cost. Vishnu was stating of the excellent low level delivery of Rafale

Makes Good Read Thunder at 100 feet: Flying France's Rafale Superfighter

Even the US is working on Free Fall/Glide weapon for JSF

- All modern aircraft are hardened against EMP. Including the IAF's Sukhois.

- Low-level flight will work against Libya/Syria type threat environments i.e zero air-to-air hostiles, with all ground based threats previously located and identified through satellite imagery and aerial recce/ELINT missions. None of that applies to the PRC.

- The difference with the F-35 is obvious. The latter can penetrate areas and attack targets which conventional aircraft can't. In contrast, the Super Sukhois will be able to go everywhere that a Rafale can (at low-level if necessary) and drop a gravity bomb of any kind. The Rafale thus delivers no new capability to the IAF.