Radar thread - specs & discussions

sudipn · Post by **sudipn** » 18 Nov 2005 00:20

George,
This URL is not one which i think would be archived... then again if you read the warning on line 2 for people have been warned to skip if thy do not like to read long mails
and finally how come you are posting in blue?

George J wrote:SudipN should be banned from BRF too. He has contracted the extra long bug from Marcos. He could have easily given the URL to the link and posted the MOST relevant portions from it. Whats the difference between him and Marcos?

This is all that's needed.

Dileep,
There is a DAMN GOOD reason why JCage changed his name so whats the point in re-emphasising the change?

You need to be banned too.

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 18 Nov 2005 00:26

Uh oh, looks like someone else has gotten on the wrong side of GeorgeJ's personal jihad against long posts and colored fonts

George J · Post by **George J** » 18 Nov 2005 00:35

Sudip:
I got no control over the color of URL's, all URLS that anyone posts come up in blue. Also its from DarpaTech99 which means its been around for a long time and going nowhere.

If you issue such disclaimer then your good friend Marco will also zimbly issue such disclaimers and CONTINUE to post 40,000 word posts.

So you should be banned.

Vick:
I know his wife will be very happy if he gets banned from BR. I know my wife will be very happy too if I get banned from BR. Yesterday she asked me what GUBO meant, I directed her to BR Acronym's list....she was NOT impressed.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 18 Nov 2005 00:50

Living on the edge, dooood!
Why did you have to direct her to the acronyms list?? You could have zimbly said: I dont know what all zis means! Blame it on the Hot Air (Gj: pat. pending) forum!!

George J · Post by **George J** » 18 Nov 2005 01:04

She actually found Colin Bin Powel Al Trinidadi very funny. Trust me its much easier to direct ppl to the Acronym list than to try to explain stuff to them.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 18 Nov 2005 01:15

There is a DAMN GOOD reason why JCage changed his name so whats the point in re-emphasising the change?

Well, there may be. I saw people using his name on this forum, and used it myself. He in fact once corrected the spelling I used, so it is safe to deduce he has no problem with it. On top, I have never noticed him objecting to it.

Vittu kala achayoo. If he has a problem, let HIM advise. Till he does that, I shall continue to use the name.

You need to be banned too

I have no doubt about that, but the admins doesn't oblige

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Nov 2005 01:57

q: does it not AESA warrants higher processing power.. will the cpu needs changes, and can it be accomodated by with existing LCA processors.. what is the required MHz or GHz needed to have in a mission computer that would have an extended application of AESA inputs like target acquisition and IFF processing, missile warning, tracking and targetting, etc. all in one?

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 18 Nov 2005 02:10

sudipn wrote:This is a slightly lengthly but highly technical discussion on how cheap analogues of AESA radars are being developed...

- One day I allready wrote here, that AESA (as a design) is NOT decisevely better, than PESA in all application, and the race between two designs is far from end. AESA 1) need much more (x10 folds) processing power than PESA for the same result 2) need cooling 3) folds more expensive. PESA much easily can be integrated with aircraft surface if you need side or rare radar coz you not need to put all the radar under the antena in case of PESA.

sudipn · Post by **sudipn** » 18 Nov 2005 02:15

Igorr wrote:
sudipn wrote:This is a slightly lengthly but highly technical discussion on how cheap analogues of AESA radars are being developed...
- One day I allready wrote here, that AESA (as design) is NOT decisevely better, than PESA in all application, and the race between two designs is far from end. AESA 1) need much more (x10 folds) processing power than PESA for the same result 2) need cooling 3) folds more expensive. PESA much easily can be integrated with aircraft surface if you need side or rare radar coz you not need to put all the radar under the antena in case of PESA.

Igorr,
would u like to state that Russians manufacture MEM chips? i would be really surprised to find that out...
could you please send me details if you find out anything about the russian making MEM chips..cause as far as i am concerned PESA is definately different than MEM's
sudip

sudip

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 18 Nov 2005 02:19

D- ji,

I think Gj was just kidding round and didnt mean offense (I know you know that just repeating it just in case), although now you guys brought it up, JC would really work for me. I had forgotten that I went through a naamkaran process for certain fundae. No offense intended, memory just received a well deserved jolt.

PS: Gj has revealed his achilles heel. I have a feeling Sudipn is going to get Gj into trouble with his AHQ over BR and thats a fate worse than banning. [he he he]

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 18 Nov 2005 02:28

JC,

Hey GJ and I have already got sufficiently socially engineered, so it is OK.

And what about the info I requested?

vishnua · Post by **vishnua** » 18 Nov 2005 02:30

this is off topic but couldn't resist.. Lot of home ministers(HM's) would like their PM's banned from BRF. Atleast mine thinks i am wasting lot of time here whenever i refuse to do stuff which involves PC.excuse .. i need some work done hence i can't obilige or do it yourself on other PC
The real reason is ,HM is really upset that the junior is watching planes and videos from here.( who can blame him all those color full planes , he loves them)

This has been going on for years ..( don't get deceived by date joined as they got messed up when they upgraded the BR Software and don't forget lurkers)

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 18 Nov 2005 02:41

Dileep,

Ha! And did it involve acoustic shaping (now who coined that) too...and was there a gripefest about the demise of the BR cricket thread in the romance forum...

Will post on the other stuff once I get home, am surfing from a frnds comp..gimme a cpl of days..to see if i have anything worthwhile..

Regarding HM's...lol..one martyr who for purposes of marital safety shall remain unnamed...had the temerity to talk shop aka BR with his chums..on a get together...missus gave him hell...now aforesaid martyr only talks br from his cell..when he is outside..never from home..
A wise man said...women never like men getting a boys club of their own where they can gather and shoot the breeze..such a clubhouse has to be torn down!!

Manne · Post by **Manne** » 18 Nov 2005 15:50

I went through a naamkaran process for certain fundae

Yeah, your Robert Redford crush.

Oh, don't get worked up...I can imagine the real reasons.

GJ, you mustn't forget that your AHQ is a closet BRFite too if she is reading all that stuff and asking questions...er...just hide my email from her, willya?

And what is this social engineering that I keep hearing so much about

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 18 Nov 2005 17:13

Whats Robert redford got to do with the name? Dayyum- I am falling behind on BR lingo everyday.

If you dont know what social engineering is, you need to be acoustically shaped, thats what you need?

Manne · Post by **Manne** » 18 Nov 2005 17:41

Robert Redford was John Cage in Indecent Proposal.

Or, lithographically illuminated perhaps?

OK, OT TP stops here for me.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 18 Nov 2005 17:46

Manne, in that case I'd love to be John Cage.

I wont post more on it since this is a phamily phorum after all. But damn that jacka$$ Kutchner.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 18 Nov 2005 18:46

sudipn wrote: Igorr,
would u like to state that Russians manufacture MEM chips? i would be really surprised to find that out...
could you please send me details if you find out anything about the russian making MEM chips..cause as far as i am concerned PESA is definately different than MEM's . sudip

MEMs Phase shifters - it is new sort of phase shifters for PESA (http://www.darpa.mil/darpatech99/Presen ... rfinal.pdf ), not mention Russia has it or not, PESA technologies have some advance relative to AESA's in some specific applications. Not to speek about prooved PESA radars vs. newcome AESA products.

I feel, some american companies put in AESA tecnology their billions and now they want to retrive the money and for it trying to persuade all the world, that their AESA radars are far ahead, but in reality their achievements are not so shining. Thus they prefere to evade the comparison their AESA with existing wellprooved PESA radars, and prefer to compare AESA with some obsolete, like Kessegrain antena radar . Thus the comparison seen much better for AESA. It is good marketing.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 19 Nov 2005 12:29

Raytheon details AESA radar flight test plan

Flight International

15/11/05

Raytheon plans to start production of its APG-63(V)3 active electronically
scanned array (AESA) radar by the end of next year for anticipated launch customers the US Air National Guard (ANG) and Singapore.

The first (V)3 system will be test flown on a Boeing F-15E at Eglin AFB,
Florida for three months starting in mid-2006, concluding the development
phase of the new radar programme. "After flight test, we're ready to go into initial production," says Raytheon's director of new business for F-15 radar programmes, Arnie Victor.

Victor adds that an upgrade programme to install the (V)1 sensor on 178 of the US Air Force's F-15Es will be completed soon.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Dec 2005 22:55

http://www.prosensing.com/Millimeter%20 ... Radars.htm

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Dec 2005 00:17

The SAR payload with active phased array antenna for RISAT is a
complex technology involving several new elements for Space segment & ground
segment. Recognising this, ISRO/DOS has initiated developmental efforts in 1991 and
realised C-band Airborne Synthetic Aperture Radar (ASAR). Besides this, ISRO has also
developed certain key SAR related hardware technologies for satellite SAR payload
under R&D programme. It has also expertise in developing SAR processor in-house. It is
envisaged that RISAT mission could be realised in the time frame of around four years
and the satellite is targeted for launch onboard India’s Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle
during 2005-06.

http://planningcommission.nic.in/aboutu ... tgp_st.pdf

pratik_das · Post by **pratik_das** » 11 Dec 2005 10:44

Igorr wrote: MEMs Phase shifters - it is new sort of phase shifters for PESA (http://www.darpa.mil/darpatech99/Presen ... rfinal.pdf ), not mention Russia has it or not, PESA technologies have some advance relative to AESA's in some specific applications. Not to speek about prooved PESA radars vs. newcome AESA products.

I feel, some american companies put in AESA tecnology their billions and now they want to retrive the money and for it trying to persuade all the world, that their AESA radars are far ahead, but in reality their achievements are not so shining. Thus they prefere to evade the comparison their AESA with existing wellprooved PESA radars, and prefer to compare AESA with some obsolete, like Kessegrain antena radar . Thus the comparison seen much better for AESA. It is good marketing.

Thanks for the excellent darpa link, Igorr. Do you agree with the numbers in the picture below? They make MEMS look better than anything else. Any comments?

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 12 Dec 2005 03:31

pratik_das wrote:Thanks for the excellent darpa link, Igorr. Do you agree with the numbers in the picture below? They make MEMS look better than anything else. Any comments?

- I think, he takes into consideration only the cost of serial production. But the main investments in military highteck go for the development. The radar production also not in big serials, and cannot give to manufacturer much with lower serial cost. Also the helth conservatism says that wellproved old better that unclear new. IMHO.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 12 Dec 2005 20:16

I have a question on PESA.

I understand from literature that the phase shifting is at discrete intervals, and the typical resolution is 4 bits => 16 levels.

My question is, will not this discreteness impart a similar discreteness in the beam placement? How can you make a smooth beam transition with discretely switching phases?

pratik_das · Post by **pratik_das** » 13 Dec 2005 15:48

Dileep wrote:I have a question on PESA.

I understand from literature that the phase shifting is at discrete intervals, and the typical resolution is 4 bits => 16 levels.

My question is, will not this discreteness impart a similar discreteness in the beam placement? How can you make a smooth beam transition with discretely switching phases?

You can't have a smoothly transitioning beam with digital delay periods, be it in AESA or PESA systems. You need a totally analog phase shifter to do that. But the point to remember is that you don't need that fine a resolution if your beamwidth is wide anyway. Beam orientation precision can be improved with a greater resolution in the delay period (i.e. more bits). But beam width is limited by the number of Tx/Rx elements. So it doesn't matter if you can only move your beam by 6 degrees at a time if your beam is 30 degrees wide anyway.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 13 Dec 2005 20:28

AESA can have practically smooth beam variation. The TXs can be synced to a digitally synthesized baseband control signal. The problem of discreteness is that there is bound to be blind (to be precise, less sensitive) regions in the FOV.

I would imagine one way to alleviate it would be to slightly offset the individual elements of the PESA. but that will increase the beam width. The picture of a russian array (Epulet) indicates that technique.

pratik_das · Post by **pratik_das** » 14 Dec 2005 16:58

Dileep wrote:AESA can have practically smooth beam variation. The TXs can be synced to a digitally synthesized baseband control signal. The problem of discreteness is that there is bound to be blind (to be precise, less sensitive) regions in the FOV.

How does AESA alleviate the problem of null spots, or less sensitive regions? The ceiling to the number of lobes in the beam pattern is determined by the number of Tx/Rx elements. The narrower the lobe, the deeper the nulls if the number of Tx/Rx elements is kept constant. Beamwidth must be widened to reduce the number of null spots no matter how the signals are added - passively or actively.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 14 Dec 2005 20:22

The individual tx/rx modules does not produce individual lobes. The waves originating from them combine to form a single wavefront, and the directional power density is determined by the phase relationship between the individual signal.

If you can vary the phase of the modules linearly, you can have the beam pointing in any angle, without null spots. The problem with PESA is that the phase change is in steps.

pratik_das · Post by **pratik_das** » 15 Dec 2005 19:43

Dileep wrote:If you can vary the phase of the modules linearly, you can have the beam pointing in any angle, without null spots. The problem with PESA is that the phase change is in steps.

So AESA beam shapes don't have sidelobes?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 15 Dec 2005 19:55

So AESA beam shapes don't have sidelobes

Yes, they do. You need an infinite number of emitters to eliminate sidelobes. But that is not the point here. The point is the power density of the main lobe when it steers.

pratik_das · Post by **pratik_das** » 15 Dec 2005 20:44

Dileep wrote:
So AESA beam shapes don't have sidelobes
Yes, they do. You need an infinite number of emitters to eliminate sidelobes. But that is not the point here. The point is the power density of the main lobe when it steers.

Well actually there was a need to bring up the sidelobe issue because the minima between the mainlobe and the sidelobe is what I was referring to as a null spot.

But I do finally understand your point. The discrete phase shifts in PESA only allow the beam to focus sharply at discrete points in space. In between those convergence points the beam is distorted with strong sidelobes. Whereas in AESA baseband software provides a near-continuous phase shift, which allows the beam to retain shape as it moves.

Thanks.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Dec 2005 03:54

http://deccanherald.com/deccanherald/de ... 051217.asp
ISRO to set up weather radar network

Mr S Varadarajan, Director — Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), said short-range battlefield surveillance radars had been a tremendous success.

“After a two-year cache programme also involving the Bharat Electricals Limited (BEL), 1,000 radars were taken by the Army, most of which are being used in the Northern frontiers. There are fresh orders from the Border Security Force (BSF) as well,” he said.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 19 Dec 2005 01:30

Dileep wrote:AESA can have practically smooth beam variation. The TXs can be synced to a digitally synthesized baseband control signal. The problem of discreteness is that there is bound to be blind (to be precise, less sensitive) regions in the FOV.

I would imagine one way to alleviate it would be to slightly offset the individual elements of the PESA. but that will increase the beam width. The picture of a russian array (Epulet) indicates that technique.

- The problem of 'non smooth variation' is all digital system 'problem'. Indeed, it is not problem because you anyway limited by some degree of bitrate. Do you have discomfort, when you are listening to the music, righted on the digital medium? If you are not feel any 'abrupts' when you listen to Beethoven on the CD, why you worry about such with the radars?

Now the russian put a really little radars on their newest missiles, I dont think those missiels feel any discomfort with their digital wiew on the surround.

Institute "agate" proposes to foreign partners the miniature self-homing heads of the rockets

Moscow scientific research institute "agate", entering the concern OF PVO - AIR DEFENSE "Almaz -Antey", proposes to foreign customers the radar homing heads of the rockets, which according to the estimation of specialists are most miniature and most effective.

"our institute is one of the world leaders for the creation of self-homing heads for the air-to-air missiles and" surface- air "together with such firms as American company" Raytheon "and French -" Talles ". The chief western independent experts recognize that our heads are most miniature and perfect ", said" Interfaksu-AVN "in Sunday on the exhibition" Lima-2005 "in Malaysia general director - design project leader OF MNII" agate "Joseph akopyan.

According to him, to attain world acknowledgement it was possible due to the use in the self-homing heads of most contemporary element base, and also because of the skill of construction.

"our American and European competitors have long since ceased to show on the exhibitions" living "models. In this there can be two reasons: either they fear to open some their secrets, or their heads disadvantageously look in the comparison with our. I think that second most likely. They are not ready to demonstrate the heads of new generation, and to show old them it does not be desirable ", said I.Akopyan.

It noted that within the framework of concern PVO - AIR DEFENSE "the diamond -Ante1" OF MNII "agate" proposes self-homing heads not as separate product, but in the composition of the antiaircraft missile systems Buk -M1, Buk -M1-2 ", ship ZRK" calm "and its modifications, other combat complexes, developed and produced by the enterprises of concern.

According to I.Akopyana, to the export programs today is fallen a basic fraction of entire volume of developments and production OF MNII "agate". "export prevails. Approximately 40% of entire volume compose arev the straight deliveries according to the agreements of commission with FGUP "rosoboroneksport". 40% more - this is the participation in the export as the supplier of those completing, i.e., when we supply our production to the chief implementing agency of contract. And to everything else remain 20%. We, of course, are want gosoboronzakaz to be composed at least 50% ", says I.Akopyan.

MNII "agate" today proposes to customers the new generation of radar homing heads, which will make it possible in practice to realize principle "fire and forget". The advance active radar homing head OF 9B-1103M and its modification, for example, is standardized for the application both in the rockets "air-to-air" and in the rockets "surface- air" by caliber from 150 to 400 mm.

The Developed by MNII the "agate" self-homing heads ensure the autonomous search mode, seizure and homing of aerial targets, which makes it possible to attain the maximum combat effectiveness of the rockets, on which they are established.

Source: Langkavi. 12 December. INTERFAKS-AVN
[ 13.12.2005 ] http://www.rosprom.gov.ru/news.php?id=1457

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 19 Dec 2005 03:35

Igorr, you would feel the difference if you use a 4 bit system for music.

Read my original post. I was trying to find out if that is a problem. The quote you took is out of context. If someone can prove that the problem doesn't exist, nothing like that!

Since we are at it, I can give you one disadvantage of AESA. You have to DSPically combine the incoming signal, where in PESA, it is automatic. The DSP technique need to be done at a much lower s/n ratio. Just to please you

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 19 Dec 2005 23:12

Dileep wrote:Igorr, you would feel the difference if you use a 4 bit system for music.

Read my original post. I was trying to find out if that is a problem. The quote you took is out of context. If someone can prove that the problem doesn't exist, nothing like that!

Since we are at it, I can give you one disadvantage of AESA. You have to DSPically combine the incoming signal, where in PESA, it is automatic. The DSP technique need to be done at a much lower s/n ratio. Just to please you

May be that because my poor english... About AESA - ya, I agree. Thus it need MUCH more powerfull DSP processing unite, Ib4 have say. I am very doubfull whether Baget DSP will be enough for newcome NIIR and NIIP's AESA babies.
PS. Just for joke: russian indigenous 100 years old 'synthetic aperture' technology for color photography - http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Dec 2005 00:39

http://www.radarindia.com/html/tech_shedule.pdf

http://www.anokiwave.com/pdffiles/radarpaper.pdf

pratik_das · Post by **pratik_das** » 01 Jan 2006 09:05

Does anyone know what the state of the Phalcon - IL-76 package is and when the IAF will receive it?

George J · Post by **George J** » 01 Jan 2006 11:26

pratik_das wrote:Does anyone know what the state of the Phalcon - IL-76 package is and when the IAF will receive it?

EHOG?

pratik_das · Post by **pratik_das** » 01 Jan 2006 17:27

George J wrote:
pratik_das wrote:Does anyone know what the state of the Phalcon - IL-76 package is and when the IAF will receive it?
EHOG?

Your point being?

George J · Post by **George J** » 01 Jan 2006 18:09

EHOG=Ever heard of Google?

If you had google for it you would have found out that in March 5th, 2004 it was stated that:

"The first delivery will take place after 44 months, the second after 53 mo-nths and the third after 59 months," said a defence ministry official.

Bharat Rakshak

Radar thread - specs & discussions

Phalcon status?

Re: Phalcon status?

Re: Phalcon status?