Indian Roads Thread

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Rishirishi » 27 Jul 2020 05:22

A Nandy wrote:Maybe it can be managed in the same way as national parks with access controlled at all entry/exit points. In the US, places like Yosemite have been preserved in this way.


Second that. In UK they have something called "areas of outstanding natural beauty" . Such areas are not national parks (where no development can take place), but is strictly controlled development can take place. In the Himalayas, i think the government should take active control. Some parts should be developed, which provide employment and means to survive. Other parts should not be developed with light, road and water connectivity. Once such amenities are given, people start to cut down trees and destroy the fragile ecology.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 27 Jul 2020 07:31

Now we're all thinking in a better aligned manner. It's possible to balance the creation of quality infrastructure and yet maintain natural beauty. It simply requires a plan that ensures that the place offers creature comforts, yet is managed so that it is not overwhelmed by visitors, effectively destroying it. Parts of the inner town can be restricted to pedestrian-only zones, or have rental e-scooters or things like that to get around.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Jarita » 27 Jul 2020 09:23

The protracted shenanigans by special interest fronts need to be ruthlessly overlooked for national interest projects.Support to these 'protsetors' is really by the opposition/congi cabal who have a heartburn against the the char-dham highway/railway project as this will benefit Hindu pilgrims and is a pet project of Modi/Gadkari.BJP stands to gain voters support once the project is completed.


It is extremely problematic that anyone who objects to destructive development, is viewed as anti national or part of a cabal. In doing so we have effectively shut down voices for ecology from the nationalistic side. Today the environmental space is occupied by external NGO's who have vested interests. But we are collectively responsible for that with the very language used above and consequent actions. A sadhu from the Ganga basin who objects to the effluents in the water is dismissed on the grounds of "development".

The word development in India has become a baton to push through every flawed project because people inadvertently shut up even if the project is overpriced, has high public cost and catastrophic long term impact. Witness for example the floods in Indian cities today. It's because of relentless real estate development and roadification that has completely destroyed the sinks for rainwater. It's a disaster and no these things are not easily fixable. A lot of forest area not touched from Paleolithic times is now destroyed in the name of development. Those big roads that are built cutting through the reserves actually bring with them miners and migrants who then set up habitation on the sides of the roads. They destroy and fragment ancient forests and actually lead to extinction because it restricts movement of animal species.

This forum must have the the ability to discern between necessary destruction or destruction because of the building, road and copy the west lobby. We must also rethink our approach. Perhaps all places do not need highways and expressways. A small, well maintained road will suffice. Many of our densely populated cities need the real estate grabbed by roads back to create the sinks. Perhaps neighbourhoods need be built to be self contained.
And do ancient cities like Varanasi and Puri need wide roads at the expense of ancient Mathas and neighborhoods. Several cities in Japan are walking cities, especially the old ones. Look at the ugly new architecture brought up. And do our bigger cities need more cars and roads? You can barely breathe in most of them.

We must question and not accept everything that is rolled out under the label of development. Else we are already undergoing ecocide.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Rahul M » 27 Jul 2020 09:30

^^^
Inner town restrictions on motor vehicles are in place in most tourist towns with limited infrastructure. Not only hill stations like Mussoorie, Nainital but also in Amritsar.

However traffic becomes a nightmare during busy seasons. Some years back I visited Mussoorie from Delhi over an extended weekend. There was a traffic jam from Dehradun onwards ! This was mainly due to various chokepoints like railway underpasses etc which would allow only single vehicle movement. What was meant to be a relaxed weekend getaway effectively became a frenzied road-trip. There is no way that a wider road would not help everyone on that situation.
Now, 90% of the vehicles had Delhi number plates and yet the infrastructure at Mussoorie could support this enhanced load. The solution is not to choke tourist movements but to spread it out by creating alternative destinations.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby nandakumar » 27 Jul 2020 10:16

The notion that better road connectivity to the Chardam would reduce these places to another Simla, is misplaced. I haven't been to Kedarnath, Badrinath etc. But many of my close relatives have. From their accounts what I gather is that tourists are almost exclusively pilgrims. For them just stepping on the soil is itself the journey's end. A darshan is a bonus. Using these places as weekend retreat for partying is simply inconceivable. Better road connectivity might actually reduce the crowd and ferry people back to the plains faster.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 27 Jul 2020 12:52

Jarita wrote:
The protracted shenanigans by special interest fronts need to be ruthlessly overlooked for national interest projects.Support to these 'protsetors' is really by the opposition/congi cabal who have a heartburn against the the char-dham highway/railway project as this will benefit Hindu pilgrims and is a pet project of Modi/Gadkari.BJP stands to gain voters support once the project is completed.

It is extremely problematic that anyone who objects to destructive development, is viewed as anti national or part of a cabal. In doing so we have effectively shut down voices for ecology from the nationalistic side. Today the environmental space is occupied by external NGO's who have vested interests. But we are collectively responsible for that with the very language used above and consequent actions. A sadhu from the Ganga basin who objects to the effluents in the water is dismissed on the grounds of "development".

To a third person, nothing in the quoted text appears to be directed at you. So if you think it is, you're probably misdirecting your emotions here. Further, strawmen, e.g. "sadhu from the Ganga basin who objects to the effluents in the water is dismissed on the grounds of "development"", do not do credit to any one.

Places like Char Dham are getting popular for various reasons. In general, pretty much all major pilgrimage places have poor infrastructure, except new places like Akshardham. In 2020, pilgrims must have access to creature comforts as they seek to connect with their cultural roots. It should not be an effort that tests their health and/or safety. The same applies to the residents of the places of pilgrimage - they're entitled to benefit from being residents of where they are, and to enjoy a sane balance of the opportunities the tourist enables, without being devastated by it.

To have a strong culturally united society also requires places of pilgrimage to be sources of pride - clean, accessible, well managed and run, access to which is controlled and managed smoothly - no different from anything the best parts of our major cities or better yet, the developed world (in the west or east) can offer. It should be well within capability in a few years for someone from Lucknow or Patna or much further off to take the Purvanchal Expressway, Delhi-Lucknow Expressway or the Lucknow-Delhi bullet train, another expressway to Mussoorie and Haridwar, with the whole trip having been fast, smooth and perfectly doable for anyone up to advanced age who are simply not recommended to travel much. Then, having booked a trip reservation for an available traffic controlled visit period ahead of time, with a comfortable a/c room within walking distance of the sacred ghats, and potentially accessible ramps and wheelchair rentals for those who need it.

When millions of people from any walk of life can tour and do pilgrimage in such comfort and modernity, it will become extremely hard to eat away at the cultural core of the country through conversions and other egregious activities.

Roads are simply one part of it. This discussion is largely better suited to the public policy thread. It is in no one's interest to ignore the concerns of those who genuinely care. That includes both the apocryphal sadhu in the woods mentiohed here, and posters here (including me) who advocate the necessity of modern infrastructure to be built as a modern infrastructure solution, not just several unconnected pieces. In most cases, including this one, a road is not just a road - it's part of a system of infrastructure supporting something.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Haresh » 27 Jul 2020 20:21

nandakumar wrote:The notion that better road connectivity to the Chardam would reduce these places to another Simla, is misplaced.


100 % agree

I went to Gangotri a couple of years ago, to do the Gaumukh trek.
We left from Haridwar-Rishikesh and travelled up past the Tehri dams and through many smaller villages.

We stopped at one little village for tea/snacks. One of the young boys at the tea stall started talking to me, he was obviously practicing his English on me. He said he was a real fan of Stephen Hawking. I asked him about his plans and his education and work\career plans.
Education was minimal, no real future plans, he intended to stay close to his family, to look after parents etc.

Any way I have and do spend a lot of time in the mountains, those who live in cities tend to have a romantic view of life up the mountains.
My observations from many years of visiting the wilderness throughout the world.
1/ It is a hard life. Forget the romance, If the inhabitants are not assisted, they will leave.
2/ small industries need to be encouraged, these should have a focus on religious artefacts and handicrafts, after all that’s what people go there for.
This could be handmade Murtis, clothing, paintings etc, whatever the USP of the area is.

3/Infrastructure needs to be developed.
On the drive to Gangotri I was amazed to see the good state of the roads.
I made enquiries with locals and was advised that local were employed to build and more importantly maintain the roads via the village headman.
They clear minor rock falls, the larger ones, they inform the authorities who will bring in equipment.
Also, at Gangotri, I noticed that there were sewage pumping stations, it didn’t all go into the river, I saw no sign of that. It was a network of pipes from Guesthouse toilets > to larger pipes > sewage pumps. I assume it is treated, it definitely did not go to the river. Unless of course it was dumped somewhere else.
When I was in the small tea stall, talking to the tea boy, I noticed that the locals were installing geo-tex nets to stabilize the mountain side to prevent landslides/rockfalls. These are useful skills, I am pretty sure they were utilised elsewhere in the mountains.
One other interesting discovery I made was the Uttarkund has the highest percentage of Brahmins, I assume this is due to the religious nature of the area. They also tend to own the land, and the low castes work on it. Apparently, they are fleeing the areas for better opportunities lower down. This has created a shortage of labour. However, the land owners just open up tea shops, restaurants and guest houses, so this balances out.
There is no need to have all the guest houses concentrated in one area in the main town, they can be spread out, it avoids congestion in the main town and spreads the development out more evenly.
This is the story where ever I have been in the mountains, whether in the UK, Canada, USA.
Just my 2 cents worth

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Jarita » 27 Jul 2020 23:35

It's great that we are having a dialogue around this.
Below are just a few examples of the invisible cost and the ruthlessness of decision making in road, highway lobby. Question to answer is - is it worth it? It is crucial that given the year upon year ecological calamities we are facing in India, we answer the question around real cost. For some reason the road lobby in India is ruthless. It's the same with the real estate lobby which is responsible for the Delhi mess but no one ever brings them up. It is one thing to repair existing roads but the destruction is quite costly. Let us discuss and assess on a case by case basis going forward.

[img]MUMBAI:%20Around%2031,000%20trees%20will%20have%20be%20cut%20(2017)[/img]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst


Delhi Mumbai roadway and the conversion of fertile land into massive expressway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5Ctt87IE0s

<deleted by mod>

I respect all the viewpoints put forth till now. It's important that we bring this up instead of agreeing with all the moves of the government. It's one thing to build roads rapidly in border areas where we must focus and another to crush through legacy and wealth.
Last edited by nachiket on 28 Jul 2020 05:32, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited to remove bits about imaginary fantasy transport options

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby nachiket » 28 Jul 2020 00:36

Jarita wrote:It's great that we are having a dialogue around this.
Below are just a few examples of the invisible cost and the ruthlessness of decision making in road, highway lobby. Question to answer is - is it worth it? It is crucial that given the year upon year ecological calamities we are facing in India, we answer the question around real cost. For some reason the road lobby in India is ruthless. It's the same with the real estate lobby which is responsible for the Delhi mess but no one ever brings them up. It is one thing to repair existing roads but the destruction is quite costly. Let us discuss and assess on a case by case basis going forward.

[img]MUMBAI:%20Around%2031,000%20trees%20will%20have%20be%20cut%20(2017)[/img]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

Have you ever driven on the Mumbai-Goa highway? That highway is a death trap. The lifeline of the entire Konkan belt is a 2 lane undivided highway with a huge amount of traffic. What could possibly go wrong? It needed to be widened into a dual carriageway ages ago but politics and usual govt. lethargy kept getting in the way. There is no alternative route to Goa or to any of the major population centers and hundreds of villages in the Konkan region. It is easy to pontificate on environmental impacts of road building while conveniently ignoring the human cost of not doing it. I remember similar "Think of the trees!" arguments being thrown about by ivory tower environmentalists when the Konkan railway was being built as well, none of whom was ever going to use that railway if it got built.
Last edited by nachiket on 28 Jul 2020 05:32, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited to remove response to deleted part of post

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 28 Jul 2020 03:02

Probably time for a thread cleanup too, nachiket. While intentions may be good, random pie in the sky ideas don't really help.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Rishirishi » 28 Jul 2020 05:28

I am a strong believer in improving infrastructure like roads and railways. But more roads must be seen as a part of a larger solution.

Take the Mumbai costal road that is comming up. It will cost some cool Rs 12 000 crores. But will it really help? The bottle necks in the city, will choke up and the entire costal road system may end up being a massive slow moving parking lot. Mumbai cant handle more cars, there is not sufficient parking space. The living condition in the city is unbearable. Anyone who can, tries to move abroad.

Here is an other idea.
Fact 1, 90% of the people in Mumbai use public transport. The problem are the 10% people who drive and take up rest of the space.

1) The government bans carsparking on public areas, roadsides etc.
2) Put a monthly tax of Rs 50K for driving a car in the city. If 300 000 people sign up it will generate a revenue of rs 18 000 cr per year.
3) As the road congestion will be gone, the buses will be able to move very fast. Deploy 30 000 Ac buses, that run with a frequency of 2-3 min.
4) use the revenue from car-tax to clean up the city. New foot paths, parks, trees, sports facilities etc.

This is what Singapore has done. I don't think they are hashish smoking lefties. I suspect they concluded that private car ownership was not viable for 6 million people in such a small area. Singapore is slightly larger then Mumbai.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby nachiket » 28 Jul 2020 05:35

Suraj wrote:Probably time for a thread cleanup too, nachiket. While intentions may be good, random pie in the sky ideas don't really help.

You are right, I have deleted the fantasy bits from Jarita's post, as well as Mollick's response to it and the part in my own response which mentions it.

Guys, stick to the thread topic. Concern for the environmental impact is alright but delving into the realm of fantasy to while suggesting alternatives is not. Posts along similar lines will get deleted without notice.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby nachiket » 28 Jul 2020 05:55

Rishirishi wrote:I am a strong believer in improving infrastructure like roads and railways. But more roads must be seen as a part of a larger solution.

Take the Mumbai costal road that is comming up. It will cost some cool Rs 12 000 crores. But will it really help? The bottle necks in the city, will choke up and the entire costal road system may end up being a massive slow moving parking lot. Mumbai cant handle more cars, there is not sufficient parking space. The living condition in the city is unbearable. Anyone who can, tries to move abroad.


I'm glad you brought up the coastal road. Another long delayed and sorely necessary project that has become the favorite punching bag of assorted activists in Mumbai. The original plan was to have a sea-link similar to the Bandra-Worli link all the way south to Nariman Point with an exit at Haji Ali. That plan was scrapped as too expensive. Remember, the Bandra-Worli link itself was delayed and went way over budget because of a ridiculous realignment that was forced after complaints from the fishermen. But the government agreed to that change despite the extra cost, because it is impossible to widen the current WE highway which is extremely narrow at many points south of Bandra. It is a nightmare to drive down to the CBD in South Mumbai during rush hour. Show me another major city in the world which makes it so difficult to reach the CBD by road? Building along the coast, out on the water or underground is the only option left and the coastal road is the lower cost alternative to building a sea-link. And it is part of a larger plan which involves connecting the Trans-Harbour link to the Bandra-Worli link so that it is possible to exit the city quickly on a completely elevated signal-free road. Imagine the amount of fuel saved by vehicles which don't have to pass through the morass in Mahim-Matunga-Dadar region and further south at Haji Ali and beyond. Think of the reduced pollution due to this as well.

Here is an other idea.
Fact 1, 90% of the people in Mumbai use public transport. The problem are the 10% people who drive and take up rest of the space.

I don't know if you've been living under a rock but there is a huge interconnected Metro rail network currently under construction with several lines being simultaneously built and more under various stages of planning and execution. So the coastal road is part of a holistic program to improve the lives of the citizens of Mumbai.

1) The government bans carsparking on public areas, roadsides etc.
2) Put a monthly tax of Rs 50K for driving a car in the city. If 300 000 people sign up it will generate a revenue of rs 18 000 cr per year.
3) As the road congestion will be gone, the buses will be able to move very fast. Deploy 30 000 Ac buses, that run with a frequency of 2-3 min.
4) use the revenue from car-tax to clean up the city. New foot paths, parks, trees, sports facilities etc.

This is what Singapore has done. I don't think they are hashish smoking lefties. I suspect they concluded that private car ownership was not viable for 6 million people in such a small area. Singapore is slightly larger then Mumbai.


Singapore is a city state. Firstly please check the road infrastructure in Singapore and compare it to Mumbai. They are light years ahead. You cannot have the infrastructure of a sub-saharan African city and start looking at solutions used by a first world city. Singapore's per capita income and car ownership rates are way too high compared to India and most importantly they do not have space to expand due to being a city state. If you want to decongest Mumbai, you need to incentivise people to leave the congested areas and move to the outskirts. You cannot do that unless you have a good road and public transport network available for them so that they can reach any part of the city in a reasonable amount of time. Unless you do that our cities will continue to remain overpopulated, congested, polluted and provide a terrible quality of life.

Putting a Rs.50k monthly tax on cars means pretty much every private car owner in the city will have to give up their car (where did you pull this number out of btw?). You would be penalizing people for the government's failure in providing decent roads and your own pet obsession with getting rid of cars from Indian cities and nothing else. Singapore is not the only major city in the world. Cities from the US to China and Japan have found ways of accommodating far far more cars on the road than Mumbai and still providing better air quality and easier traffic. And they didn't have to charge an impossible tax on their citizens to force them to dump their cars either.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 28 Jul 2020 05:58

Thanks for the cleanup!

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Rishirishi » 28 Jul 2020 17:46

Singapore is a city state. Firstly please check the road infrastructure in Singapore and compare it to Mumbai. They are light years ahead. You cannot have the infrastructure of a sub-saharan African city and start looking at solutions used by a first world city. Singapore's per capita income and car ownership rates are way too high compared to India and most importantly they do not have space to expand due to being a city state. If you want to decongest Mumbai, you need to incentivise people to leave the congested areas and move to the outskirts. You cannot do that unless you have a good road and public transport network available for them so that they can reach any part of the city in a reasonable amount of time. Unless you do that our cities will continue to remain overpopulated, congested, polluted and provide a terrible quality of life.


Singapore had 600 000 cars in the area same as Mumbai. Mumbai on the other hand had over a million cars and 3-4 million vehicles. The roads of Mumbai are not of the same standard as Singapore, but they are fully motorable for buses. If sufficient number of private vehicles are removed the buses will run faster, and more people can be transported using the same infrastructure. Some of the major roads can be turned into a Buslanes. This what Singapore did in the mid 70's. I think it is fully possible to make this happen in Mumbai as well. But there must be a will and a vision to make the city livable.

utting a Rs.50k monthly tax on cars means pretty much every private car owner in the city will have to give up their car (where did you pull this number out of btw?). You would be penalizing people for the government's failure in providing decent roads and your own pet obsession with getting rid of cars from Indian cities and nothing else. Singapore is not the only major city in the world. Cities from the US to China and Japan have found ways of accommodating far far more cars on the road than Mumbai and still providing better air quality and easier traffic. And they didn't have to charge an impossible tax on their citizens to force them to dump their cars either.


I beg to differ. It has been proven impossible to accommodate private car ownership in congested cities. The space is just not there.

I have been a part of a political process where congestion charges were used. It is an effective tool that is used worldwide. T
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congestion_pricing

Space is one of the most scarce commodities in a city like Mumbai. It is only fair that people who use this space, pay for it. Putting a RS 50K per month on cars would force the common man to give up the vehicle. But in return will be able to reach the destination faster, due to faster moving buses. Singapore has 6000 buses. Mumbai with a population 4 times would require 20-30K buses (which can easily be accommodated in Mumbai, after removing all the private vehicles). Only the upper class will be able to afford cars. In addition businesses, taxis etc will use it. Today a car trip from Bandra to Nariman point can take up to 1,5 hours. A bus without congestion could do it in 20 min. This is done worldwide and can also be done in India.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby darshan » 28 Jul 2020 18:05

Not directed at anyone particular. Just carrying on with the present theme.

What are the corruption indexes for Mumbai and Singapore?
What are the law and order enforcement indexes for Mumbai and Singapore?
Do people follow the laws in Singapore in the same manner as Mumbai across class, caste, religion, etc.?
Does Singapore suffer from election based law and order swings?
Do Mumbai people vote based on improvements to standard of living as their primary metric?
How many "you don't know who I'm" kind of people roam around in Singapore that follow different set of rules?
.....

End of the day it's all about what people want where people control things by voting. Implementations are controlled by voting public. The greatest of ideas are useless in India if voters aren't onboard for many many elections. For example, Delhi is happy with khujali. Assumption here is that Mumbai voters actually want to solve traffic issues above others. The statistical analysis on the ones that want to do that may be of use here. For example, how many of these actually show up to vote? How many are librandus?

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Jarita » 28 Jul 2020 18:26

[

I beg to differ. It has been proven impossible to accommodate private car ownership in congested cities. The space is just not there.

I have been a part of a political process where congestion charges were used. It is an effective tool that is used worldwide. T
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congestion_pricing


Thank you for bringing up the concept of congestion pricing. I would like to introduce another concept here "carrying capacity".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_ ... 0available. The points you have mentioned are being adopted by congested cities world over.

In large infrastructure projects, carrying capacity of micro and macro ecosystems is assessed before implementation. This is not been done in India and of late when it is done, projects still get rapid clearance. I am unable to embed images of late and have to post links. Some of the links above talk of the carry capacity assessments.

Simply put, cities like Mumbai have no more carrying capacity for roads and mega infrastructure. It is fair to say that people deserve vehicles but the real estate cost of roads, parking lots and additional space, comes at an opportunity cost of sinks, green spaces, AQ and real estate.
There are major world cities that have successfully blocked out streets for private vehicles. Beijing being one such city which did it to reduce congestion and to improve Air Quality.

Getting back to carrying capacity, a classic example is fragile eco zones like Kaziranga where NH-37 highway has caused fragmentation and driven real estate and shops to litter it (again unable to embed).

https://twitter.com/RandeepHooda/status ... 3803438080

Most animal deaths happen while crossing NH-37 running through #Kaziranga highlighting that human infra structure should not go through National Parks. The highway along with badly allowed resorts, hotels, shops and ancillary tea estate structures further block this movement.


Our bigger cities for similar reasons have little to no carrying capacity left for additional roads. Given our vast population, any additional road space will be taken up by vehicles and shops. This is public space and there is no limit to the thirst for this public space. Delhi is a classic example of where families do have multiple vehicles and each would take them out were the roads less congested.

Without disincentives to car ownership we have no way of taking back public spaces in congested cities. The increased flooding in our concretised cities is testament to why we need to recreate our sinks and restore carrying capacity of eco systems.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby darshan » 28 Jul 2020 18:37

Indian gov't institutions still haven't showed improvements on enforcement, building codes, city planning, encroachment, etc. Without the visible improvements in these institutions, it would be foolish to embark on further destruction in sensitive areas. There would be a snowball in motion that no one would take responsibility for or control it. Similar to all the river pollution.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Rishirishi » 29 Jul 2020 05:26

darshan wrote:Not directed at anyone particular. Just carrying on with the present theme.

What are the corruption indexes for Mumbai and Singapore?
What are the law and order enforcement indexes for Mumbai and Singapore?
Do people follow the laws in Singapore in the same manner as Mumbai across class, caste, religion, etc.?
Does Singapore suffer from election based law and order swings?
Do Mumbai people vote based on improvements to standard of living as their primary metric?
How many "you don't know who I'm" kind of people roam around in Singapore that follow different set of rules?
.....

End of the day it's all about what people want where people control things by voting. Implementations are controlled by voting public. The greatest of ideas are useless in India if voters aren't onboard for many many elections. For example, Delhi is happy with khujali. Assumption here is that Mumbai voters actually want to solve traffic issues above others. The statistical analysis on the ones that want to do that may be of use here. For example, how many of these actually show up to vote? How many are librandus?


Singapore wins hands down.But this does not mean that Indians do not want livable cities. Indians are willing to accept discomfort, in return for the better good. I think Covid 19 proved this. You cant make 1,3 billion people sit in house-arrest, unless they them self's accept it. During the demonetization reporters tried several times to get angry statements from people, who had been standing for hours, outside banks. But people were supportive. Heck it even contributed towards the election victory.

People like strong and effective governments. People accept meaningful rules. But the politicians need good ideas. They are stuck with an administration who looks in the back mirror while moving forward. I am happy that we in BRF finally can discuss issues like increased taxes, environmental protection, banning cars etc, without being branded hashish smoking Nehruvian idealists.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Jarita » 30 Jul 2020 21:37

The phenomenon of induced demand in transportation. This is certainly not something India requires given air quality, fuel dependency on the petro dollar combine and minimal real estate available. New roads means new real estate taken from residential areas, farmland, greens, woods all of which we have a scarcity. In fragile zones like Utknd, it is even more destructive. Thereby, each road investment (unless a repair and rejuvenation of existing roads and pathways) must be assessed with overall visible and long term costs in mind. Not rapidly cleared through relaxed policies by the clearance minister.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/06/21/ ... noring-it/

The Science Is Clear: More Highways Equals More Traffic. Why Are DOTs Still Ignoring It?
Numerous studies have documented the phenomenon known as induced demand in transportation: Basically, if you build highway lanes, more drivers will come. And yet, transportation agencies rarely account for this effect when planning road projects.

In a recent paper published by the Transportation Research Record, author Ronald Milam and his research team reviewed the various studies documenting the induced demand effect. They found that for every 1 percent increase in highway capacity, traffic increases 0.29 to 1.1 percent in the long term (about five years out), and up to 0.68 percent in the short term (one or two years). One recent study found a one-to-one relationship between new highway lane capacity and traffic increases.

However, highway planners are failing to incorporate this effect into their models. Milam told Streetsblog that “it is rare to find an induced travel analysis in most transportation infrastructure design or environmental impact analysis.” That means transportation agencies are green-lighting money for highway expansions that are destined to become congested again only a short time later.


It's great to be a road builder in India right now.

It’s a great time to be a road builder in the United States, and a terrible time to be a road user. If it feels like you’re perennially stuck in traffic due to road construction, you’re not wrong, and you’re not alone, according to a new report by Transportation for America.

The nation’s largest 100 urban areas added 30,511 new lane-miles of roads between 1993 and 2017, according to the report, a 42 percent increase (and a trend that shows no signs of slowing down). For perspective, that’s higher than population growth, which was 32 percent in those metros over the same time period. That’s not all that grew: traffic congestion, as measured in annual hours of delay, actually rose during those 24 years, by a staggering 144 percent.

The report, called The Congestion Con, explores the recent history of road-building in the United States, and argues that if anyone hopes this kind of massive infrastructure investments will help solve city congestion and traffic woes, this is far from being the case.


Slightly off tangent - the excessive and expensive road building in India was noticed by the PMO way back in 2019.

https://www.globalconstructionreview.co ... y-stop-bu/

The office of the Indian prime minister has written to the National Highways Authority (NHAI) to ask that it stop building roads and hand over the running of completed projects to the private sector.
The letter, written by Nripendra Misra, principal secretary to the prime minister, said the NHAI was “totally logjammed by an unplanned and excessive expansion of roads” leading to new projects becoming “financially unviable” and leading construction companies to withdraw from them.


One of the key objectives of such infrastructure projects is local employment and contracts to local firms. We recently learnt that some Chinese firms had been bidding on our highway projects. Does anyone have visibility into how much of the spend went to foreign firms? While we want indigenous development in defense, here foreign firms make no sense. Atleast in defense we can argue technical excellence to justify some imports. To engage with foreign firms for roads and highways is a travesty. Anyone in the bureaucracy who is enabling this must be pulled up.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby vsunder » 03 Aug 2020 00:22

2 lanes of the Mahatma Gandhi Setu connecting Patna and Hajiipur across Ganga was inaugurated by remote videoconferencing on Friday by Union minister N. Gadkari. The original bridge built by Gammon India and inaugurated in 1982 by Indira Gandhi fell soon into disrepair due to poor design, faulty materials, heavy traffic and poor maintenance. This bridge is the spinal cord of Bihar. The bearings were shot though the piers were fine. Technical solutions had to be found to mitigate heavy loads. Some of it is explained in the video linked. The web based superstructure now allows load transfer and as heard in the video 400 tonne loads were put on the bridge and displacement measured over a 48 hour period with no ill effects. The repaired lanes of the bridge are rated for 650 tonne loads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pu9wWRWP44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as_1PxxMHUo

^^^^ More info

The remaining two lanes seen above ^^^ is scheduled to be fixed by Dec 2021 according to Gadkari. In the meantime the Sahibganj bridge on Ganga a very long standing demand of the people of Jharkhand and Santhal Parganas for connectivity with NE India and Nepal has faced a setback as the tender has been canceled due to a Chinese company as part of the construction team. Sahibganj is where the newly commissioned intermodal terminal on IW-1(Internal waterway Route 1 on Ganga) is located.

Not much on MSM on the bridge, its importance or on twitter.
Last edited by vsunder on 03 Aug 2020 03:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby vsunder » 03 Aug 2020 01:04

Yet another important bridge being built by L&T in Bihar. Out of many being built in Bihar, this is the first 6 lane bridge Bihar will see. It is extremely important in connecting North and South Bihar which for the main relies on ferries across Ganga which is limited or bridges that are few and far apart. I do not want to list all the important bridges being built near Bhagalpur and elsewhere in Bihar. I already posted the link in the railway thread on train trials on Kosi mahasetu bridge in North Bihar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cChXQshpCPc

Bridge is extradosed cable bridge 9.6 km long with 66 piers, 56 piers are complete.

Now people cross the rivers Ganga and Gandak via pontoon bridges and for 3 months by boat during monsoon when the pontoon bridges are gone. Reporter himself crossed over with his car by ferryboat.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby vsunder » 03 Aug 2020 03:23

Mumbai Delhi expressway Drone shots by NHAI in Gujarat section

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4bSCL-IQq8

Vadodara to Mumbai will be concrete. There are videos of the technical details of the concrete being poured on to this highway and the curing process. The scratch marks on concrete have to be 3mm, any deeper will produce a lot of heat and tyres will be prone to overheat and burst. This depth is checked by a gauge. No scratches will produce a smooth surface which is bad for braking esp. when wet.

Delhi to Vadodara will be asphalt for the most part. Asphalt is being poured in stretches in MP and Rajasthan.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 03 Aug 2020 03:52

Is Delhi Mumbai expressway intended to be 8-laned for the whole distance ?

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby vsunder » 03 Aug 2020 07:11

Yes 8 lane expandable to 12, with two caveats.

1. Highway goes through some wild life preserves where there are underpasses for animals. Possibly there it may be 6 lanes.

2. LA in MH is always an issue with Kaka and UT.

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Suraj » 03 Aug 2020 07:55

Thanks, quite a huge jump from the GQ days indeed . Back then the problem was no one had built expressways before , and given the choice between a few access controlled expressways and a much greater distance of non access controlled 4-laned highways they went for the latter option . Now there’s enough capability to not just build expressways but make them 1500km 8-12 laned ones !

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Re: Indian Roads Thread

Postby Vips » 04 Aug 2020 04:27

Work has also started on the Amritsar-Jamnagar Expressway which is even longer then the Mumbai Delhi Expressway. Really a revolution is happening in road building under the Bharatmala/Sagarmala Project. Nitin Gadkari is a master in implementing Road/Infrastructure projects.


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