UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2023 21:57

India to acquire 97 'Made-in-India' drones for over Rs 10,000 crore to keep an eye on China, Pak borders
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 717195541/
17 July 2023

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Jul 2023 09:13

Rakesh wrote: ↑17 Jul 2023 21:57 India to acquire 97 'Made-in-India' drones for over Rs 10,000 crore to keep an eye on China, Pak borders
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 717195541/
17 July 2023

The article says "Thai over 10000 crores".

1) What is Thai in these drones.
2) are these Herons being screw drivered in India. Or they are an indigenous design being assembled in India.

mody · Post by **mody** » 18 Jul 2023 18:27

Pratyush wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023 09:13
Rakesh wrote: ↑17 Jul 2023 21:57 India to acquire 97 'Made-in-India' drones for over Rs 10,000 crore to keep an eye on China, Pak borders
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 717195541/
17 July 2023

The article says "Thai over 10000 crores".

1) What is Thai in these drones.
2) are these Herons being screw drivered in India. Or they are an indigenous design being assembled in India.

Israeli Heron is a HALE class UAV. The news reports mention a MALE class UAV. This should be the TAPAS-BH, given that recently there was a user evaluation trial, witnessed by all the three services. 97 TAPAS will be very good start.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 18 Jul 2023 19:17

If you have to say “made-in-India” it’s going to be given to an outside vendor.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jul 2023 19:26

Mody is correct. It is the Tapas UAV onlee.

sumits · Post by **sumits** » 19 Jul 2023 03:57

@Mody - Both Heron and Heron-TP are MALE not HALE class UAVs. https://www.iai.co.il/p/heron-tp

I hope you are right about Tapas but a couple of points that makes me wonder if this is deal for Heron (assembled-in-India) or Hermes 900 (assembled by Adani) and not Tapas -
1. This report specifically mentions 30-hour endurance. Both Hermes 900 and Heron-TP have an endurance of 30 hours but Tapas's final configuration demonstrated max 18-hour endurance and there were reports that instead of delaying the project, DRDO will freeze the specs to 28000 ft flight ceiling and 18 hours of endurance.
2. As per reports, "The Tapas-BH, which presently flies with a foreign engine, costs around 40-45 crore with all its mission sensors" but this news says 97 drones for 10,000 crore - so over 100 crore/unit. Although there are varying unit cost figures for Heron and Hermes but 100 crore/unit seems a little too high for Tapas -again pointing to something else.

I would be very happy if I am proven wrong!!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Jul 2023 08:13

If it's Tapas, then the difference in cost could be on account of different payloads being integrated with it.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 19 Jul 2023 11:38

MoD babus will make commission if its israeli - so likely it is not Tapas.

Neilz · Post by **Neilz** » 19 Jul 2023 14:58

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/indias- ... rance-uavs

It is, however, unclear that which Made-in-India drone will be acquired since the ANI report claims the endurance of drones being procured to be more than 30 hours.

India does not have any MALE drones capable of a maximum endurance of 30 hours.

The DRDO-designed Tapas BH-201 drone is reportedly capable of flying for only 18 hours. The only other drone that can meet the requirement of more than 30 hours of endurance appears to be an entirely new clean-sheet drone under development, called Archer-NG, which has not yet conducted its first flight.

So all are sharing ANI inputs.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 19 Jul 2023 17:26

Neilz wrote: ↑19 Jul 2023 14:58 https://swarajyamag.com/defence/indias- ... rance-uavs

It is, however, unclear that which Made-in-India drone will be acquired since the ANI report claims the endurance of drones being procured to be more than 30 hours.

India does not have any MALE drones capable of a maximum endurance of 30 hours.

The DRDO-designed Tapas BH-201 drone is reportedly capable of flying for only 18 hours. The only other drone that can meet the requirement of more than 30 hours of endurance appears to be an entirely new clean-sheet drone under development, called Archer-NG, which has not yet conducted its first flight.

So all are sharing ANI inputs.

Stabilizing a platform is not in the interest of procurement because they cannot benefit from repeat orders at a higher cost.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Aug 2023 16:54

It seems that India cannot get away from paying multiple times the price for any item.

https://m.timesofindia.com/entertainmen ... 537611.cms

Published AUG 8, 2023, 17:27

Which one of the drones is worth nearly 80 lakhs?

https://www.teamdhaksha.com/

Such drones cannot be worth more than 10 lakhs a piece.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Aug 2023 17:00

Listing of products.

https://ideaforgetech.com/

What is the nature of the payloads that increases the cost nearly one crores for the drones listed in the product page of the company?

https://www.cnbctv18.com/market/stocks/ ... 475621.htm

Published Aug 9, 2023 11:52:45 AM

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Aug 2023 17:30

https://twitter.com/DefenceReview/statu ... 93248?s=20 ----> India’s indigenous UAV industry, despite all the hype about ‘Make In India’ and ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’, is mediocre and pales into insignificance when juxtaposed with its space accomplishments, the size of its military and its stated ambition to be an aerospace hub in the coming years. Israel has been a cooperative UAV supplier but cannot be expected to part with state-of-the-art UAV technologies to India. A lot more impetus is required to indigenous R&D, preferably private in contrast to DRDO-led, if India is to reach the leading edge of UAV technology which remains an inevitable imperative for India’s war preparedness. This issue is all the more important because China, our geo-political challenge, is taking huge strides in UAV design and development, while Pakistan is busy acquiring state-of-the-art UAVs/UCAVs from Turkey.

Impact of UAVs on Strategic Air Warfare
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... r-warfare/
09 Aug 2023

By Group Captain AK Sachdev

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 14 Aug 2023 02:01

So as we've been discussing in the Ukraine thread, they're using drones to attack Russian naval ships, as well as bridges and fixed infrastructure targets.

What is the benefit of a ship-drone over a torpedo in this context?
Is a ship-drone the water-borne version of a cruise-missile or long-loiter munition?

Could similar ship-drones be used against Chinese naval ships around Malacca Straits, Andamans, etc?

China likes to make use of its maritime militias ("LIttle Blue Men") to harass shipping in South China Sea.
Can ship-drones be used against them?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Aug 2023 08:42

^^^^

I have replied to your post above in the Indian Navy thread.

As the themes covered in the response don't all belong on this thread.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 18 Aug 2023 09:25

North Korea unveils its new drone:

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Aug 2023 17:31

Tapas undergoing trials has crashed in Karnataka.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Aug 2023 21:19

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/169 ... 47347?s=20 ---> Tapas drone crashes in Chitradurga, Karnataka. It’s one of 5 prototypes in test flight ahead of user trials slated to begin soon. This is the 2nd crash during the test phase — the first was in Sept 2019. All good wishes to the team to keep things moving.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 21 Aug 2023 12:14

Rakesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2023 21:19 VIDEO: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/169 ... 47347?s=20 ---> Tapas drone crashes in Chitradurga, Karnataka. It’s one of 5 prototypes in test flight ahead of user trials slated to begin soon. This is the 2nd crash during the test phase — the first was in Sept 2019. All good wishes to the team to keep things moving.

Perfect

We fall. We get up. And we continue ahead

But we have to rationally analyse our failures and shortcomings and rectify them

THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS TO LEARNING CURVE

raja.basharat · Post by **raja.basharat** » 21 Aug 2023 14:19

Pratyush wrote: ↑20 Aug 2023 17:31 Tapas undergoing trials has crashed in Karnataka.

What was the reason to crash TAPAS-07A-14? I heard that it was some sort of sabotage. As we see to footage, we can clearly analyze that it was self crash, not accidental.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 21 Aug 2023 14:49

raja.basharat wrote: ↑21 Aug 2023 14:19
Pratyush wrote: ↑20 Aug 2023 17:31 Tapas undergoing trials has crashed in Karnataka.
What was the reason to crash TAPAS-07A-14? I heard that it was some sort of sabotage. As we see to footage, we can clearly analyze that it was self crash, not accidental.

Please point out the reasons as to why you think this is sabotage. Please also take into account that TAPAS is a UAV flying at low speeds and probably even a safer profile during testing phase which could account for the state of the aircraft.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Aug 2023 15:52

raja.basharat wrote: ↑21 Aug 2023 14:19
Pratyush wrote: ↑20 Aug 2023 17:31 Tapas undergoing trials has crashed in Karnataka.
What was the reason to crash TAPAS-07A-14? I heard that it was some sort of sabotage. As we see to footage, we can clearly analyze that it was self crash, not accidental.

Can you share the videos of other "self crash" and "accidental" crashes.

So that we can learn.

There is a huge difference in the attitude of services WRT equipment. Where they have accepted the equipment as is. And where they have not.

And Tapas has been accepted by the services.

This crash could have been a result of any of the following reasons.

1) pilot error.
2) loss of command signal.
3) design defect.

Personally I will rule no 3 out. Because if it was so. A lot of accidents could have taken place during the previous flight test program.

Cause no 1 will require some time to train the pilot.

Cause no 2 perhaps will require artificial intelligence for mission flying. That in turn will remove the pilot from the command centre. With a human operator managing the mission payload.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Sep 2023 20:45

https://twitter.com/ZenTechnologies/sta ... 45266?s=20 ---> Exciting news! @ZenTechnologies is proud to secure a ₹123 crore order from India's Ministry of Defence. This remarkable opportunity reaffirms our commitment to bolstering India's defence capabilities.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 20 Oct 2023 17:43

What is a "replicator program"?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Oct 2023 15:11

It's a program for the development of very cheap drone program.

https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... ith-china/

Aug 28, 2023.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2023 21:53

Original post on 21 Jun 2023

Pratyush wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023 17:14 For the past few days I am having this concept in my head.

A not so small quad copter drone. Powered by a Chetak turboshaft based engine converted to a generator. With the following equipment fit.

1) airborne deployment of ground based portable battlefield surveillance radar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BEL_Battl ... ance_Radar

2) thermal imager + lazer designator.

3) enough payload to carry 4 HELINA.

Operating autonomously over the battlefield in swarms of 6 to 8 machine.

With one of them flying high to take a good look at the battlefield.

The others taking targeting data and positioning themselves in optimum attack position.

Pop out and destroy the target in unison.

These should also be capable of operating along side Prachand. With a single Prachand acting as controller and command centre.

Is this doable within Indian defence industrial capacity?

https://youtu.be/jRdmmJb462Q?si=cbLadBfWueL8VjD3

Published 3rd October 2023.

While I was dreaming of the concept.

The UK was developing the concept.

The Hydra 400, a new-generation heavy lift drone, could see itself taking on a ground attack role as the Army looks for ways to weaponise its drone fleet.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 08 Nov 2023 09:23

A win for commission-khor MoD and import lobby. Buying this through emergency route. Emergency route is to keep pockets of the import lobby full.

Armed forces contract more long endurance drones from Israel under emergency procurement
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 510035.ece
08 Nov 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Nov 2023 18:22

India drops plan to arm Heron drones under Project Cheetah: Here’s Why
https://theprint.in/defence/india-drops ... y/1836747/
08 Nov 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Nov 2023 18:23

Israel-Hamas conflict won't impact UAV supplies to India, officials say
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 057588.cms
08 Nov 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Nov 2023 18:34

India’s First AI-Powered Anti-Drone System: Indrajaal
https://www.defencenews.in/2023/11/indi ... indrajaal/
07 Nov 2023

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 08 Nov 2023 18:37

Loitering munitions & swarm drones are areas where the IA Aviation has shown good support for indigenous systems. But emergency procurements seem reserved for imported systems.

Tapas is being given the cold-shoulder. And though the ADE deserves the bulk of the blame for inordinate delays in its programs (Tapas, Nirbhay etc), now that Tapas is ready, orders should follow. But the Armed Forces are showing alacrity only for Heron, Hermes and MQ-9.

The worst part is the shamelessness in calling this Atmanirbhar because Adani is doing screwdriver-giri. The term ceases to have any meaning.

P.S. Also a mistake in the Chindu report: looks like the ₹5,000 crore plan to weaponize Heron-Mk2 has been shelved. Thank goodness for small mercies.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Nov 2023 19:42

An article from last year about the Hermes 900 drone...

Third accident in three years: Hermes 900 becomes a crash drone
https://digit.site36.net/2022/05/30/thi ... ash-drone/
30 May 2022

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 08 Nov 2023 22:35

For imports, all is forgiven. Crash-prone Hermes, Heron without satnav, etc

But 1 crash by Tapas & everything grounds to a halt till root cause analysis is done, problem fixed & all tests repeated. And no, we wont touch Tapas if it falls short of the service ceiling by 2K feet or endurance by 2 hrs. But hey, we will induct Herons even though they cannot be used beyond 250 Kms because of line-of-sight limitations.

Ghar ki Murgi

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Nov 2023 22:45

Ghar ki Murgi...Dal Barabar

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Nov 2023 02:45

Hermes 900 Starliner drones set to be inducted into Indian Army
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 107233929/
07 Nov 2023

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 Nov 2023 17:17

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/armed-f ... rder-areas

IA to induct 500 logistics drones, made by MIT Chennai. The IA's support for Atmanirbhar drones has been one of the heartening features, among an otherwise step-motherly attitude towards indigenous systems

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Nov 2023 23:29

Check out that SAAW

https://x.com/Duorope/status/1726210898405269715?s=20 ---> HAL's CATS Warrior. Photo @AviationWall

https://x.com/Duorope/status/1726220571091083294?s=20 ---> Full scale mockup.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Nov 2023 07:44

I don't understand the design decisions.

What is the advantage of side weapons bay. As opposed to the bottom weapons bay.

From my own non designer though process. A bottom, bomb bay for twin SAAWs has the following advantages.

1) it can carry 1 larger munition. Or 2 SAAW.

2) when the mission is to strike 2 seperate targets, from 2 seperate locations. Then the weight of the 2nd SAAW is not going to result in an asymmetric weight distribution for the aircraft. Resulting in a simpler flight control system.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 20 Nov 2023 09:36

Pratyush wrote: ↑20 Nov 2023 07:44 I don't understand the design decisions.

What is the advantage of side weapons bay. As opposed to the bottom weapons bay.

From my own non designer though process. A bottom, bomb bay for twin SAAWs has the following advantages.

1) it can carry 1 larger munition. Or 2 SAAW.

2) when the mission is to strike 2 seperate targets, from 2 seperate locations. Then the weight of the 2nd SAAW is not going to result in an asymmetric weight distribution for the aircraft. Resulting in a simpler flight control system.

Non-designer, non-engineer here. Maybe it is so that the under-carriage (wheels) can tuck in nicely at the bottom rather than into the wings (where they would reduce space for fuel)

Added - you could have the wheel assembly at the side. But it would need to be larger (due to the increased height from the ground), more complex and heavier.

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 20 Nov 2023 21:16

HVT has tweeted that the new design for CATS Warrior is significantly different from the ones shown in Aero India (and in above posts). So, we can discuss about the merits of a shelved design, but better to wait for the new design to break cover.