Religion Thread 3

Kumar
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Postby Kumar » 21 Mar 2007 07:17

Alok,

You perhaps remember the beautiful Hindi poem by Jayashankar Prasad in his epic 'Kamayani' in the chapter called "shraddha" or faith.

Manu the original man, (or mind), has spent a tumultous time ruling a domain which he created after the floods, with the help of Ida (wisdom or intellect). And when Manu in a moment of weakness, tries to possess Ida, Gods are upset at his indiscretion. His city built with the wisdom of Ida is laid to ruins. When he is lying injured and uncared for in the field, his original consort ''kamayani'' or 'shraddha' (faith) comes looking for him and revives him:

tumul kolahal kalah mein, main hridaya ki baat re man
( O mind (or Manu), I am like the voice of your heart in a raucus din)

jahan maru-jwala dhadhakati, chataki kan ko tarasati
unhi jeevan ghatiyon ki, main saras barsaat re man.
(where desert-fires burn, and the chatak bird is desperate for a droplet
in those valleys of life, I come as the flavourful rain)


vikal hokar nitya chanchal, khojati jab neend ke pal
chetana thak si rahi tab, main malaya ki vaat re man
(when desperate and ever disturbed, searching for few moments of rest
is consciousness in its moment of exhaustion, I come as the soothing fragrant breeze of the Malaya mountains


pavan kee pracheer mein ruk, jalaa jeevan jee raha jhuk
us jhulasate vishva-din ki, main kusum ritu raat re man
(held within the walls of the breath, burnt life goes on living bent
in that scorching day of the world, I come as the night of the spring season)


chir vishad vileen man ki, is vyatha ke timir van ki
main Usha si jyoti-lekha, kusum vikasit praata re man
( for the mind that is ever lost in sorrow, for this dark forest of suffering
I come as the first light of dawn, as the flower-blossomed morning)

Last edited by Kumar on 21 Mar 2007 21:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 07:39

Kumar,

Thanks for posting that ... minor nitpick ... for me shraddha is devotion, not faith ... the difference is that the former is active while the latter is passive ...

devotion is a way to conduct one's life ... it can be bhakti yoga, or some other form ...

in my college days, my favorite person was this maali (gardner) who was devoted to ants ... he knew where all the ant colonies were in the acres of land ... twice a day he would visit each and feed them sugar ...

when I asked him why he did that, his answer was simple, "what difference does it make why I do it? Can you tell me the difference between what I do and those who go to the temple everyday?" ...

he was following basic devotion ...

let me expand ... a lack of "faith" provides for constructive meaninglessness ... but, it does not mean that life becomes dull and lacks beauty ... at least it doesn't have to ...

the fact that you quoted poetry to make that point is the best example ... one can find enough beauty in poetry without having any "faith" whatsoever ...

however, therein lies the difference between appreciating beauty and contemplating one's own existence ... poetry serves the former and in someways it is self-delusional in nature ... science serves the latter and its nature is to illuminate the self ...

the trick lies in making a seamless synthesis of poetry and science ... :)

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Postby Kumar » 21 Mar 2007 07:57

Alok,

I partly agree, shraddha is somewhere between devotion and faith. I also think that for gentle religious people faith means just that, a trusting devotion. Someone can look every morning at a picture hanging on a wall of a smiling baby-Krishna, and find enough positivity to lead the rest of the day in peace. Whether Krishna actually stole butter which appears to be lying around him in a broken pot in the picture, or whether Krishna even existed/exists may not exercise that person's mind too much.

I know religious stuff like that causes severe allergic reaction in your neurons. So as an antidote I quote something from Jayashankar Prasad who has something for you too! Before the chapter on "shraddha", there is high-brow intellectually nettled chapter called "Ida". Just a sampling of how Ida appeared when Manu first saw her:
bikhari alakein jyon tarka jaal...
(hair scattered like a logical web.. :) )

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 21 Mar 2007 08:13

I have to confess, I am getting addicted to this forum and it couldn't have happened at worst time than now. I will be defending my dissertation next week but cant keep away from this wonderful discussion forum. :D
Rakesh, I was asking about 101 myth book because it came highly recommended from someone who understand and practices Christianity. We had same semantic talk about being in science and having faith. The book actually try to decipher the Divine nature of Bible by pointing that the stories in Bible are universal and can be found in many mythological stories from Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greek and Roman cultures. My friends stand was even if Bible is proven to be a collection of stories and not Divine, he believes in greater good the concept of Faith brings. Faith and Consciousness are twin support system for moral living. I think we should also have discussion on what moral living means but may be some other time and place.(In the context of relative interpretation of what is moral and immoral)
Another thing which I want to ask is about Christ, he was a reformer of Judaism and never intended to form new religion. My understanding is that the present day Christianity is mostly Pauline Christianity and has nothing to do with original message which was only for Chosen people and not for gentiles. I was told that modern day Church structure is based on Roman model with exception of Pagan Gods being replaced by Holy Trinity. Is it true?
I was trying to understand the concept of Holy Trinity. I was told its like Indic Trinity (Creator, Sustain er and Destroyer) but apparently thats not the case. Can you recommend good source where I can understand the concept better.
Dont know whether it has been posted before but Vedic Chanting is now Unesco's list of "Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity"
http://www.unesco.org/culture/intangibl ... d=66&lg=en

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Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2007 08:24

Alok_N wrote:I find this stuff fascinating ... please don't take my comments personally...


Boss, I have no reason to. In fact I was expecting much worse from BRFites :) Nothing you said has been taken personally.

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 08:25

Kumar wrote: Whether Krishna actually stole butter which appears to be lying around him in a broken pot in the picture, or whether Krishna even existed/exists may not exercise that person's mind too much.

I know religious stuff like that causes severe allergic reaction in your neurons.


not at all ... I just like to point out that for me the form of faith you describe is self-delusional ...

there is no malice in that statement ... that is my world view onlee ...

much like Rakesh's world view tells him about who is and who is not going to hell ...

the Evanjelical/Good Samaritan streak in me wants to administer some serious psychotic drugs into those suffering with the faith disease ...

equal-equal onlee ... :)

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Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2007 08:27

Vishy_mulay wrote:I have to confess, I am getting addicted to this forum and it couldn't have happened at worst time than now. I will be defending my dissertation next week but cant keep away from this wonderful discussion forum. :D


Vishy, will send you a detailed reply but if I may give you a piece of advice. Defend your dissertation first, BRF will always be around. Don't waste your time on BRF, at the cost of your dissertation. Not worth it.

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Postby shiv » 21 Mar 2007 08:31

Kakkaji wrote:I am condemned to burn for eternity . :P


Yeh kaisa ho sakta hai? Asbestos ka chamda hai kya?-

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 21 Mar 2007 08:32

Rakesh advice taken. I am checking the replies just before going to bed. cant help man its like crack cocaine. :D

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 08:34

otoh, he can sharpen his polemic skills here and use them upon his examiners ...

examiner: Mr. Vishy, before you can become Dr. Vishy, please explain the core findings in your thesis ...

vishy: Dr. Examiner, let me start by investigating what you mean by "core" ... are you a non-dualist who has monistic views of the core? ... or, are you referring to your faith in the existence of a core?

you get the idea ... :)

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Postby svinayak » 21 Mar 2007 08:35

The principle character of early Christianity is a very fundamental transformation. It transformed from being exactly an intra-Jewish reform movement into an official state religion of the Roman Empire, and later into a world view. But underlying this phenomenonal growth were two critical paradigm shifts. The first was a radical change in Christianity: the figure of Jesus was relegated into a abstract background and that of Paul would take its place, resulting in a completely new version of Christianity. The second, perhaps of far more serious geo-politcal impact, was the opening up of this new "Pauline" Christianity to non-Jews. Here shall discuss these two issues here. First shall outline the rise of Pauline Christian theology. This will be followed by patterns of early Christian evangelism. The latter would set the stage for the Christian takeover of Rome.

The church would now effectively break: into the church of Jerusalem under James (brother of Jesus) and the church of Paul. The former would soon die out, the latter would survive. James would be stoned to death in 62 AD, and in 70 AD Jerusalem would be destroyed by the Romans. The followers of the physical Jesus broke into splinter groups and finally vanished. The last reference to them in history was early in the 4th century AD when a group of descendants of Jesus’ family visited Rome and asked the pope to recognize them as bishops in their area of the near east, because of their relation to Jesus: "In our churches only those of his family have held authority, from the time of his brothers James and Simeon. We are willing to recognize your authority as pope. Recognize our authority as belonging to his family". The pope refused (had he agreed, he would have lost guardianship of the Church). The group went into the background and it is likely that subsequent events of geopolitics could be traced to having some roots to this rejection.

The most important figure responsible for this transformation was Paul of Tarsus (earlier Saul of Tarsus, in today's Turkey). He claimed to be an orthodox Jew, a Pharisee (although this claim is doubted). There are also other opinions that he was not born a Jew, but converted to one for political reasons. He was raised in a Greek culture, and was formerly an enemy of Christianity to which he converted in 34 or 35 AD. Before his conversion, he was used as a spy and thug by the Sadduccees in their political intrigues, to report on and arrest early Christians and also against the Pharisees. He was being used by the Romans in a similar role. Paul never actually met Jesus, he claimed visions of Jesus which he used to create a new mystery cult, as it were. Although Jesus may be a central core of Christianity, it was Paul who provided the cosmic explanations surrounding him and tried to fit Jesus into a grand scheme of god.

Christianity would now break from the teachings of Jesus, into Christianity as the teachings of Paul and approximately as known in the New Testament today. This break was not a clean one. Paul laid claims to revelations and visions, and claimed to have understood the real Jesus in all his splendour. It is speculated that Paul had a severe mental conflict between his failed hopes of religious greatness and the vileness of his career as a spy and hired thug. This eventually caused a psychological collapse and hallucination while on the road to Damascus, where he claimed revelations or visions of the divine Jesus. In conjunction with his background of the Greek cults, where the violent deaths of Osiris, Attis, Adonis, and Dionysus brought divinization to their initiates, he created his version of the mysterious religion with Jesus dying and resurrecting to save a helpless mankind. He also initiated the Eucharist, one of the key sacraments of modern Christianity. The out-of-place insertion of eucharistic material based on Corinthians 11:23-26 into the Last Supper accounts in the Gospels, is clearly indicative of his fraud, since the Jerusalem church did not practise the Eucharist. The story of the resurrection of Christ is owed to the workings of Paul's mind, and was not known elsewhere. Effectively, he tried to create what might be termed a new mystery cult, claiming at its center a real but divine being (Christ) who died for the sake of mankind. He incorporated into this cult several aspects of Gnosticism, another ascetic philosophy of the time. Where possible, he tried to make the other apostles seem unworthy, and make himsef the hero in both his own letters and in the Acts of the Apostles. Of course, this was best done when preaching to Gentiles, far from Jerusalem. Thus, Christianity of the New Testament is essentially the use of Christ by the mind of Paul, with his conflicts, hallucinations and complex background.

It is estimated that after starting his mission in 44 AD in Antioch, he travelled more than 8000 miles on foot, touring Cyprus, Asia Minor, Corinth, Ephesus. (The security and comfort for this journey is owed to the Roman empire, which did not interfere in religious affairs of the subjects.) A key accomplishment of major political ramification was taking Christ's message outside the confines of Jewish believers. The apostle Peter claimed a revelation that the Gentiles were to receive the Gospel. Thus Peter, Paul, and the other apostles started preaching to people who were not Jews. Of course, this was not without problems. Were the Gentiles who entered the fold expected to circumcise in the ancient manner of the Jews? Were they expected to follow the other rituals of the Jews? A council was held in Jerusalem to keep Jewish converts and non-Jewish converts in harmony. In particular, circumcision was not a requirement for those who wished to enter the Church.


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Postby Manav » 21 Mar 2007 08:35

Alok_N wrote:Kumar,

Thanks for posting that ... minor nitpick ... for me shraddha is devotion, not faith ... the difference is that the former is active while the latter is passive ...

devotion is a way to conduct one's life ... it can be bhakti yoga, or some other form ...

in my college days, my favorite person was this maali (gardner) who was devoted to ants ... he knew where all the ant colonies were in the acres of land ... twice a day he would visit each and feed them sugar ...

when I asked him why he did that, his answer was simple, "what difference does it make why I do it? Can you tell me the difference between what I do and those who go to the temple everyday?" ...

he was following basic devotion ...

let me expand ... a lack of "faith" provides for constructive meaninglessness ... but, it does not mean that life becomes dull and lacks beauty ... at least it doesn't have to ...

the fact that you quoted poetry to make that point is the best example ... one can find enough beauty in poetry without having any "faith" whatsoever ...

however, therein lies the difference between appreciating beauty and contemplating one's own existence ... poetry serves the former and in someways it is self-delusional in nature ... science serves the latter and its nature is to illuminate the self ...

the trick lies in making a seamless synthesis of poetry and science ... :)


Very well said! Perhaps it is always/ already the case that faith and devotion/ poetry and science are indeed seamless. Difference (that is to say, the seam) is the merely the result of the arrogance of one or the other or both - thus we often have faith vs. devotion; poetry vs. science...!

But what the hell do I know anyways!

Ps.: Your account of the maali was super!
Last edited by Manav on 21 Mar 2007 08:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Vishy_mulay » 21 Mar 2007 08:44

Alokji, I am reading your posts for long time to understand it is futile to play reverse psychology games with the master. I am just a small man trying to gain some knowledge which I will never learn in College. Wish I had 1/1000 skills of analytical reasoning like you. :D

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Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2007 08:58

S.Valkan wrote:Well, the presumption when you make an unqualified assertion in response to a reasoned statement in a debate is that you can corroborate the claim with facts. Obviously, if it is a matter of only belief, that is a whole different ballgame.


My corroboration lies in the Bible itself. That is my fact, as I believe that to be true. For me belief and fact go hand in hand with my relationship to God. I cannot seperate them.

S.Valkan wrote:Now you are reading into the minds of someone or something you hardly know, leave alone know its mind.


To understand why I believe so strongly about the inerrancy of the Bible, I'd suggest you read the following link - http://www.pbministries.org/articles/payson/the_works_vol_2/sermon_01.htm

S.Valkan wrote:I'll let you, the expert on the Bible, do the honours with the KJV.


But I am not the one who made the following statement, "Despite the best of efforts, one sees that even those Gospels don't agree with each other on the cornerstone of Christian belief,- the "resurrection of Christ."

So please do highlight the doctrinal differences that you have come across from the four Gospels on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Please highlight which Gospel states that Christ never rose from the dead.

S.Valkan wrote:If everything has to be created by someone, or something, then even "God" must have a creator. Who "created" this God? If you say "no-one", then the whole of your logical edifice falls apart.


I think I just may have lost my belief in Christianity by your statement ;) I might as well throw my Bible out, because you already know my answer and that is no-one. Revalations 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last..." I need no other proof.

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Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2007 09:00

Alok_N wrote:much like Rakesh's world view tells him about who is and who is not going to hell...


Yikes! :eek: :shock: :D

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 09:02

aww stop it guys ... thanks, but pesh hai an all time favorite:

khudi ko khud kar buland itnaa
ki har taqdeer kae pehlae
khudaa bandae sae khud poochae
bataa taeri razaa kyaa hai?


[make your self bold enough that before god decides your fortune he asks you for advice ... ]

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 09:05

Rakesh wrote:
Alok_N wrote:much like Rakesh's world view tells him about who is and who is not going to hell...


Yikes! :eek: :shock: :D


granted that said person has to first ask you the crucial question, i.e., "I don't believe in Christ. Do you think I will go to hell?" ...

there I asked it ... per your earlier post, I know what answer to expect ... :)

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Postby TSJones » 21 Mar 2007 09:23

Rakesh:

Romans 2:14-16

God knows what's in your heart whether you have heard the Message or not.

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 09:27

TSJones wrote:Romans 2:14-16

God knows what's in your heart whether you have heard the Message or not.


we also have this:

Bush 2:14-2003

Bush knows what's in god's heart whether god said it or not.

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Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2007 09:29

Alok_N wrote:granted that said person has to first ask you the crucial question, i.e., "I don't believe in Christ. Do you think I will go to hell?" ... there I asked it ... per your earlier post, I know what answer to expect ... :)


LOL! You are too much Alok :-o But alas, those are not my rules, I did not make them. I am just playing the game as I understand it.

TSJones wrote: Romans 2:14-16. God knows what's in your heart whether you have heard the Message or not.


Excellent verse. I agree with your statement. Well said.

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Postby Rakesh » 21 Mar 2007 09:33

Alok_N wrote:we also have this:

Bush 2:14-2003

Bush knows what's in god's heart whether god said it or not.


LOL! Well put Alok! Ever seen that cartoon of Bush kneeling next to his bed and praying to God, to give him direction on Iraq. Suddenly he hears a voice telling him that he should attack Iraq. But actually it is just Cheney hiding under the bed. Really funny cartoon.

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Postby SaiK » 21 Mar 2007 09:45

per old stories (baashans), before homo sapiens, (the previous homos), were mutated by radioactivity to "become".. also, use of atomic weapons could not be ruled out then.. when archaeologists excavated mohanjodaro, the skeletons were found holding hands, that was similar to those found at hiroshima and nagasaki (may be nuclear science existed in vedic days, that reflected perhaps a different methodology, irradiation of population (brahmastra)...).

metallurgy, cosmology (hindu calendar ++ astronomy), ayurved medicine, surgery, ... and many things unknown cause of nothing in writing existed/or survived so many mutations and radioactivities (including those volcano and asteroid hits, floods, forest fires, human wars, etc..). what i am trying to say is this: the previous hindu culture believed in scientific development, in addition to equal involvement in spiritual enlightenment for the ultimate betterment of humanity (up to advaita).

after that, there were these culture chased down or away, looted, plundered, raped, ethnically cleansed.. you hear about many survival. these survivals are because of the strong science background we had, but many documents lost.. and never advanced and augmented itself due destruction of the culture by invasions.

the invasions included psychological ones.. the hate and the enemies we created with having such a wonderful culture, and the jealousy did everything. later, people started interpreting and finally made things as one can experience today, and linearly decaying further.

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Postby SaiK » 21 Mar 2007 09:51

Alok_N wrote:
TSJones wrote:Romans 2:14-16

God knows what's in your heart whether you have heard the Message or not.


we also have this:

Bush 2:14-2003

Bush knows what's in god's heart whether god said it or not.


and this:

Osama 2:14-2006

Osama knows what's in evil's heart whether he runs or remains hidden.

</OT>

Raju

Postby Raju » 21 Mar 2007 14:44

SaiK wrote:per old stories (baashans), before homo sapiens, (the previous homos), were mutated by radioactivity to "become".. also, use of atomic weapons could not be ruled out then.. when archaeologists excavated mohanjodaro, the skeletons were found holding hands, that was similar to those found at hiroshima and nagasaki (may be nuclear science existed in vedic days, that reflected perhaps a different methodology, irradiation of population (brahmastra)...).

.


AIT is primarily cover-up for that. Infact we have been going through a series of coverups ever since the first 'Anglo-historian' landed foot on the subcontinent and got a grip over the history of the land. What has been going on since then is a 'dumbing down' of history to suit certain agendas including frenzied theories on how human beings evolved from apes.

In the modern times only hinduism catalogues in entirety human interaction with the 'Gods' who were responsible for birth & development of the human race. The other civilization who had done some cataloguing were the sumerians viz ancestors of modern Iraq. Denigration of hinduism would mean a lack of enthusiasm for wider study of this religion among youth worldwide.

This would ensure status-quo and no inconvenient questions for those who wish to rewrite human history.

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Kerala Xtians attack hindu temple

Postby G Subramaniam » 21 Mar 2007 17:20

Haindavakeralam

Christian fanatics attacked Temple and Devotees
3/21/2007 6:22:56 AM HK


Palluruthi: Inspired by Communist’s and Jehadi’s in Kerala, Christians are also following the path of violence against Hindus and Temples.



A group of Christian fanatic youths of the organization Christian Yuvasangh yesterday attacked the devotees in Chellanam Badrakali Temple .Their aim was to disrupt the ongoing festival in the Temple.



The temple owned by Kerala Pulayar Mahasabha, was acting as the binding force for Hindus in the region where the majority is Christians. The Christian frustration to convert the Hindus in the region resulted in this attack yesterday.



The Temple authorities informed Police prior to festival itself about the chance of an attack by Christians in the area; even after the complaint no security was provided. Many Hindu youths were admitted in Maharaja Hospital near by. Among them the condition of Uneesh, who lost his hands is critical. The planned Christian attack was with lethal weapons, swords and iron rods.



Police arrested Elton( 35),Bastin(23),Jomon(24) and Dinu(18) in connection with the attack.Situation is tense in the area.The Police who denied protection earlier for the Temple is now patrolling with a big force, to protect the Christians from any retaliation!

Raju

Postby Raju » 21 Mar 2007 17:27

spcm.org

58 year old Christian brutally murdered in Kerala, India



Thiruvanandapuram (Kerala in India), 11 February, 2007 : A Christian house owner and a retired government employee S. Stanley, 58, was brutally murdered at his house in front of his wife by a group of youngmen on Saturday aternoon, the 10th of February at Kalliyoor, the border area of Thiruvanandapuram, the capital city of Kerala State in India.

Some alcoholic youngsters launched in front of Stanley’s house, shouted with slang words against christians and christianity, hit the gate violently and stoned the house. Stanley and his wife came out of the house and asked them to go away from the front of their house without making nuisance. But they became more violent.

Then Stanley got into the house and telephoned the Police. While he was ringing to the Police, the attackers entered the house and stabbed him several times at his back, neck and stomach. He died on the spot. Attackers severely beaten and thrown out his wife Sisilet Bhai, who is also a retired government employee. Police authorities said to the SVM News Service.

Both husband and wife were retired binders of the Kerala Public Service Commission.

Paul Ciniraj, the Chairman of the Christian Ministers of the Churches in India (CMCI) and the Co-ordinator of the Global Council of Indian Christians (GCIC) condemned the incident. He asked the Government to find out whether there is any influence of any fanatic groups behind it.

A group of Police camping at the incident occured area under the leadership of V.C. Mohanan, the Assistant Commissioner of Fort in Thiruvanandapuram City Police and A.R. Prem Kumar, the Circle Inspector of Nemom.

The three youth, of which one was Lalu, 30, son of V. Soman fled the scene on a two-wheeler, which was later found, abandoned at Nedumcad near Karamana. Police said.

Stanley’s daughters are Sherin and Celine and Jeyakumar and Vincent are son-in-laws.

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Postby JCage » 21 Mar 2007 17:32

HariC wrote:Have their been any bloodbaths instigated by Christians against Hindus?


Heard of what goes on in the NE? Heck, I bet you are unaware of what goes on in the North itself if you are even asking this question..heck, thanks to EJ religious violence has been on the boil for well nigh two decades and counting, in my own personal experience.


I have seen people kill each other in UP and bihar based on caste - people cutting off other peoples hands because someone married into their caste.. But hey, we blame society and not religion.


I have seen Christians refuse to eat with other Christians based on what Xavier did...so is it personal animus, and historical developments influencing society or..religion?

Hmm, cutting off hands eh- nice hyperbole. What about bullets in kneecaps and skulls...because one is catholic, or one is protestant...chee thoo, only dirty hindoos do that...

Talk about modern India...and if religion was responsible, why isnt it happenig in modernising urban areas?

Do learn about how social development patterns, ethnic prejudice and economic disparities fuel the bulk of these "disagreements"..as compared to the whipping boy of "religion"..

Of course all these issues will disappear overnight...otherwise its the fault of religion...not because people are frickin' poor, desparate, ill-educated and have little to do but take recourse in ethnic identity..

When the same disaffected lower caste guy changes his religion to get out of it, we blame the other reigion and not our society or religion! like it or not, a significant percentage of conversions are attracted to X-tianity because it promises them some kind of liberation from the SC/ST/Untouchable labels.


Sadly, b0llocks. I have been amongst SC/STs and many varied ethnicities...to a man, I found them to be very aware of their heritage and hard to "convert" ...those who are poor otoh, will convert because economic realities and lack of education combine to create the circumstances. What you quoted is the usual myth...heck, spend time amongst proselytisers and even they'll admit how tough they find it..I was invited to a massive rally- (promised!)- which was a damp squib because nobody was even willing to convert to Buddhism...let alone christianity..
That when $$s and propoganda are not used...lest you bring up that strawman as well..


Dude, i dont know your background (other than you are netsavvy and sitting in US), but please note that the net savvy, NRI / RI crowd who frequent this board (or any other board) form less than half percent of India's population and maybe even more. Your noble ideals does not make or represent the rest of rural and urban india's. Come to UP, Come to MP, go to the villages and you will see how deep routed caste system is. This entire arguement of - "society is different from religion, hinduism is not to blame for casteism" is a fallacy. And oh yes, my circle of acquaintances will be no different from yours if you go back a generation and examine them in detail. .



Grin.....first, 25 posts old and you seek to tell people who they are and where they are from..! And you think I am in the US! And I dont know UP or MP (of all places!)- Please- I have spent more time up there and seen the realities in the villages and cities as compared to pontificating about it from afar and blaming a religion for it. FYI, religious groups are the only one who are turning folks away from caste "bhed bhav"...and yes, there indeed is something wrong with the folks you reference if they are so stuck up about caste...my acquaintances, and indeed their prior generations as well...have had many intercaste marriages, and bloodlines are so mixed that its no longer an issue of surprise..but when these things do come up, its invariably the *prejudice* of those who dont know better and are stuck in whichever era they were from....my acquaintances (nor I) dont cozen ourselves with belief of religious sanctioned caste taboos..unfortunately, you seem to be frustrated with your inability to recognise this simple fact..if the folks you seem to be angry with cant get over their prejudice...thats a problem with them...not with the religion...an easy crutch for people to use when faced with dealing with people they dont like or consider themselves superior to..if it is indeed religion which is the problem, care to explain how more and more Indians are easily slipping away from these issues without giving up their religious belief, hmmm? Does education and economic ability have anything to do with it?

Take Valkans replies for instance...and learn from there...what you consider "noble ideals" are merely the basis...anyone can be anything...its upto them to decide what they want to be...I can never be a mendicant surviving on alms and devoting myself to higher studies...but if a kid in a dalit family wants to choose that path...hey, his choice! I have no qualms in going and seeking religious advise from him.

Obviously there will be resistance...for centuries professions became identified to groups and ethnicities...its a mark of identity...but to confuse that with the religion itself is pointless.

The original context - someone objecting to rakesh's belief - get that right. you are twisting my words


Considering you were doing the same via raising strawmen, why the protest? If you addressed the point in a correct manner, I wouldnt have had to point out how flawed your line of reasoning was. Per you- only some perfect soul can go around and protest when someone offends him, eh? Otherwise, theres always the refrain of "your shirt is torn, how dare you point out my fly is open"?

At the sametime you are equating a christian's non-belief in other religions to a man waving around his schlong in front of you?. To each his own.


There you go...so much about twisting words...you have no problems in twisting words, but you whine and shit (as you put it) when your own inclearly defined words are interpreted any other way than that which you claim they were originally intended for..

If an EJ (which the discussion is about- and NOT Rakesh), refuses to give the deference due other religions while demanding the same from others, everyone is well within their rights to call him a hypocrite and castigate him/her. OTOH, your approach would have everyone take it as is, because of the "caste system"..

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Postby Kakkaji » 21 Mar 2007 18:22

shiv wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:I am condemned to burn for eternity . :P


Yeh kaisa ho sakta hai? Asbestos ka chamda hai kya?-


Unbeliever ka chamda hai. :)

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Postby Calvin » 21 Mar 2007 18:52

It is not clear that Rakesh's views on Christianity are shared by the vast numbers of practicing Christians. Again, this may be a symptom of the inherent elitism of this forum, highlighting the chasm between ideal and practice.

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Postby TSJones » 21 Mar 2007 19:02


It is not clear that Rakesh's views on Christianity are shared by the vast numbers of practicing Christians. Again, this may be a symptom of the inherent elitism of this forum, highlighting the chasm between ideal and practice.


If you are pointing out that most Christians would like to see everybody else be a Chrisitan as well, then I think that is a given.

Most churches in the US have budget for missions whether it is for a local emergency food pantry for those temporarily down on their luck or for drilling water wells in India and Africa. It is all done in the name of Christ. Most churches like to keep their missions budget at least 25% of their overall budget and they have yearly campaigns to replenish it.

If this is not what you mean then please elaborate.

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Postby Joype » 21 Mar 2007 19:40

American pays fine for entering temple

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/american-pays-fine-for-entering-temple/34990-3.html?xml

Puri: Fifty-year-old New Yorker Paul Roediger never imagined that his visit to the Jagannath temple in Puri would end up at the police station.


He entered the temple for a darshan on Thursday. However, it wasn’t easy for him to come out. He was caught mid-way by the sevayats (servents of The God) who later brought him to the police station.
....

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Postby Pulikeshi » 21 Mar 2007 19:48

TSJ,

I have many friends who have collected money as kids for poor little "Indian Hindoos." Since then many have walked away from the Judeo-Christian-Islamic triad. I did learn a lot from thier experience. They remain friends despite my sinning ways, but they won't part with their money irrespective of my beliefs :mrgreen:

Calvin,

Your pursuit to undesrtand the gap between ideal and practise is commendable. However, there are too many moving parts here - what do you hope to achieve by this enterprise?

The ideal is like the corporate vision, it gives common folks an unattainable goal (in the short run), and that keeps the juices flowing.

Will you point to California and say, they are elitists and what they do is not reality in America? How about the Boston Brahmins in thier times? Did they represent America or not? If you choose to inspect every gutter in every religion, culture and river, I am sure you will find a lot of data, but you will not keep yourself clean in that effort.

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Postby S.Valkan » 21 Mar 2007 19:48

Rakesh wrote:My corroboration lies in the Bible itself. That is my fact, as I believe that to be true. For me belief and fact go hand in hand with my relationship to God. I cannot seperate them.


In case you missed the obvious, the basic premise in any serious discussion is that facts cannot be corroborated by whimsical belief.

Historical/archaeological/scientific evidence clearly demonstrates that the notion of an unitary Bible is chimerical.

Of course, it is not incumbent upon the faithful to accept this evidence and supplant their faith.

But, it is not proper either for the faithful to make an unqualified public claim in an unitary, inerrant Bible when clearly the evidence is to the contrary.

To understand why I believe so strongly about the inerrancy of the Bible


I have no problems in you believing in the inerrancy of the Bible.

The only objection - if it isn't clear already - was in your publicly proclaiming that its inerrancy is incontrovertible.


But I am not the one who made the following statement, "Despite the best of efforts, one sees that even those Gospels don't agree with each other on the cornerstone of Christian belief,- the "resurrection of Christ."

So please do highlight the doctrinal differences that you have come across from the four Gospels on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Please highlight which Gospel states that Christ never rose from the dead.


Maybe the words were a tad confusing for you, but I simply suggested that there are disagreements in the various Gospels regarding the events and actors surrounding the cornerstone of Christian faith, in even the MOST CAREFULLY VETTED version of the Bible in existence.

I have laid that out in quite detail in my post to TSJ, and I am reasonably certain you have read it by now.

As for doctrinal difference, we don't have ALL the Gospels available to make that judgment call.

It is quite conceivable that those Gospels/accounts that clearly doesn't rhyme with the Roman ecumenical councils were expunged and/or obliterated in the intervening centuries.

Revalations 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last..." I need no other proof.


Essentially, what you are telling me - and it should not be a surprise to most of the forumites - is that you, like most Abrahamic ( Judeo-Christian-Islamic ) faithful, have compartmentalized reason and faith, and see no possibility of a convergence between the two.

Well, in this case, it is pointless to extend this discourse into the realm of logic. :wink:

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Postby Joype » 21 Mar 2007 19:54

This is for those Doubting Thomas who are sceptical towards main stream Christians...

73 per cent Indian Christians say they're proud to be Indians

Nearly two-thirds of all Indians are fiercely proud of 'Mera Bharat Mahaan' but more than half of India believes the caste system is a "barrier to social harmony" and is holding the country back, according to a BBC poll published recently.

India-watchers have expressed surprise at the poll's finding, the first for a nationwide 'attitudes' survey conducted by an international agency, that Indians still seem to have caste firmly on their minds in one way or the other, even though leading sociologists have long argued that urbanisation and industrialisation has helped break down caste barriers.

The survey aims to itemise exactly how Indians view their own country, at a time when much of the world appears to have a view alternately on "emerging India" or "overheating India". The survey was conducted for the BBC World Service by the international polling firm GlobeScan.

The survey finds that 71 per cent are proud to be an Indian; nearly as many (65 per cent) think it is important that India is an economic superpower; 60 per cent think it is important India should be a political power and the same number believe it should be a military superpower. The survey comes as part of BBC's ongoing 'India Rising' week of special programming that charts changes in different sectors of the Indian economy.

The BBC survey concentrates on asking more than 1,500 Indians a series of questions focusing on social and political issues. It finds that Indians overall, seven in 10 have exhibited a positive sense of identity by agreeing to the statement, "I am proud to be an Indian." The survey finds the view is uniform across all age, income groups, even though it differed among religious groups with Christians (73 per cent) the proudest; Hindus (71 per cent) close behind and Muslim pride in being Indian languishing at 60 per cent.

The poll finds that Indians' positive perceptions about their present also extend to the Indian marketplace. A 55 per cent majority say the justice system "treats poor people as fairly as rich people"; 52 per cent say "being a woman is no barrier to success" and just under half of all Indians (48 per cent) declare they would rather "work for a private company than for the government." Interestingly, six in 10, or 58 per cent say they believe India's security is "more in danger from other Indians than from foreigners" and 55 per cent say the "caste system is a barrier to social harmony." 47 per cent say "corruption is a fact of life which we should accept as the price of doing business." But a cheering 45 per cent of 18- to 24-year-old Indians say they are less tolerant of corruption than the older generation.

On religious belief, 50 per cent say "people don't take their religion seriously"; 40 per cent lament that "young Indians have lost touch with their heritage."


(Source: The Times of India)


An old stuff, but still relevant to this thread I believe

Rony
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Postby Rony » 21 Mar 2007 20:39

22 Christian missionaries taken into custody.Surely the resistance against evanjihadis is building up !

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14413176


Christian missionaries taken into custody

Dharwad (Karnataka): Twenty-two Christian missionaries from Andhra Pradesh were on Tuesday taken into custody amidst tension over their alleged attempts to convert people at Baad in Dharwad district, police said. Local residents objected to the distribution of pamphlets by the missionaries. They alleged that the missionaries were trying to convert people to Christianity.

Police took them into custody and seized the materials in their possession.

According to police, the missionaries were appealing to villagers to become Christians to lead a happy life and to attend a meeting on Friday.

All of them were produced before the magistrate in Dharwad.

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Postby HariC » 21 Mar 2007 20:51

JCage wrote:Grin.....first, 25 posts old and you seek to tell people who they are and where they are from..! And you think I am in the US! And I dont know UP or MP (of all places!)..


I never said you didnt know UP or MP. I will address the other points raised by you when i get away from work, but let me say this first.

the problem with you (Hari, if a member has taken a handle it is for a reason - privacy. Respect it - JE Menon) is you think you are the only old timer in this forum. And your stress on the number of posts i had is indicative of your mindset. (call it my /// is bigger than yours syndrome?)

ofcourse, I know you are in the US. I have been reading so many threads on this forum that it is easy to make out. didnt see you in any of the aero india pictures either :P :P

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Postby disha » 21 Mar 2007 21:27

HariC wrote:
Have their been any bloodbaths instigated by Christians against Hindus?


HariC, please go down to Diu, Daman or Goa. The last portuguese strongholds. While you are there, take a tour to the forts.

You will find clear evidence of mass torture and forcible conversions through that. The portuguese were brutal. They had special areas and structures to carry out the "God's" work against the heathens.

So was there bloodbaths instigated by Christians against Hindus. The answer is yes, since the portuguese when they did the blood bath were Christians.

It will be OT to discuss the history in this thread, which has been very civil until you came here with your points.

Also to your point of "SC/ST rights in your friend circle/society", why don't you make the first step before and accept them with open arms despite your near ones disapproval and then come back and lecture the larger set .

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re

Postby Dharmavir » 21 Mar 2007 21:35

More evidence:
NSCN and National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) under the leadership of Bishwamohan Debbarma promoted Christian terrorism. NSCN and NLFT worked for forcible conversion to Christianity. These outfits were responsible for the religious oppression of the Hindus and Buddhists in Arunachal Pradesh and Tripura respectively. Jamatiya Hoda and its leaders, to a large extent, were able to control NLFT run religious terrorism. NSCN’s religious terrorism continued unabated.

http://www.asthabharati.org/Dia_Oct06/b.b.kum.htm

Significantly , most of the leaders and cadres of NLFT are Baptist Christians and unless one converts to the Baptist variety of the faith no cadre or activist is given arms or training. The NLFT have also been regularly interfering with threligious faith and practices of the Hindu tribals and non-tribals and converting people at gun-point.On the contrary A.T.T.F.'s political demand is deportation of all non-tribals who settled down in Tripura after 1951. This outfit does not interfere with religious affairs of people despite the horrendous cruelties they have been perpetrating on non-tribal Bengalis.

http://tripurainfo.com/insurgency/sekhar3.shtml

The most prominent among the terrorist outfits of Tripura is the NLFT (National Liberation Front of Tripura). It employs terror tactics to effect mass conversion to Christianity (The Statesman 1999, 2000; Ghosh 1999) and is a predominantly Baptist (Protestant) organisation. Whatever token non-Christian representation it had, it has lost recently. Nayanbashi Jamatiya, a Hindu leader, led a revolt against the policy of forcible conversion of the NLFT and left a rebel camp in neighbouring Bangladesh with his followers. On April 8, 2001, while his party was moving towards the Indian border, it was attacked by the main group; seven activists were killed and he himself was seriously injured and taken to a government hospital in Bangladesh. (The Statesman 2001a, 2001b).
¨
The sectarian nature of the Baptist terrorists has come to the fore. They killed a Catholic priest called Father Victor Crasta on July 25, 2000. In protest the Catholic Church of Tripura called a bandh (closure) in all Catholic run institutions on August 10, 2000. (The Telegraph 2000)

On August 6, 1999, four RSS (Rashtriya Swayam-sevak Sangh) workers of Tripura, named Shyamal Kanti Sen Gupta, Sudhamoy Dutta, Dinendranath Dey, Shubhankar Chakraborti, were kidnapped by the NLFT, taken to a camp in the jungles of Bangladesh and a ransom of Rs 2 crores was demanded from their parent organisation. The RSS refused to pay and they were done to death sometime in the month of December 2000 or January 2001. The news of their killing was confirmed by the Central Government in July 2001 and carried by all prominent national dailies. Their "guilt" was that they were preaching among the tribals to preserve Hinduism. Our Consti-tution permits propagation of a faith by legitimate means. If that is so then work for the preservation of a faith too is surely permissible. However, the kidnap and murder of these Hindu pracharaks of the RSS by Christian terrorists did not create a media sensation. This is not the first time that a Hindu preacher has been attacked in North-East India. I found reference to such an event in a most unlikely place albeit most authentic. Swami Gokulananda (1999), the present head of the Ramakrishna Mission Ashrama of New Delhi, has written that he had been the Secretary of the Khasi Hills Ashrama in Meghalaya in the 1980s. He futher writes:

The hostile forces were against our movement as it was trying to bring back the lost tradition of faith among the people of the Khasi hills. Since it was like a speed breaker in their path they wanted to remove me. One day a time bomb was planted in my room but they did not succeed in killing me.

It should be noted that the most dominant church in the Khasi hills is Presbyterian (Protestant) which is based in the UK. Christian terrorists have been active in various States of North-East India for a long time. Recently they have spread to North Bengal also. Reverend John Thwaites, a Protestant priest who had been in North Bengal for over three decades, was asked to leave the country in January 2001. No reason was given and he defied the order. The West Bengal Government quietly arrested and prosecuted him. There were demonstrations by his sympathisers during the trial which ended in August 2001. The judge sentenced him to three months simple imprisonment following which he was to be deported to his native land of the United Kingdom. Is there a link between the Protestant priest and the terrorist activities of the Kamtapuri separatists? The question is pertinent because just prior to the "quit India" order served on Reverend Thwaites (January 2001), the Kamtapuri terrorists had killed eight CPI-M activists including a District Committee member in the four-month span from August to November 2000. The West Bengal State Government has the answer to this question. They have not made public way the Reverend was asked to leave the country in the first place and the BJP-led government at the Centre has played ball the way the State Government wanted.

http://www.freeindiamedia.com/current_a ... ffairs.htm

Police in the northeastern Indian state of Tripura say a leading Hindu religious leader, who was kidnapped by suspected separatist rebels on Monday, has been found dead.
Police say the body of the man, Labh Kumar Jamatia, was discovered in a forest in Dalak village in southern Tripura.

He was the leader of the state's second largest Hindu group.

The spritual chief of his tribe Bikram Bhadur Jamatia has called on the Indian police to provide protection for Hindu tribal leaders in Tripura.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1089578.stm

Hindu preacher killed by Tripura rebels

A tribal Hindu spiritual leader has been killed by separatist rebels in the northeastern Indian state of Tripura.

Police say about ten guerrillas belonging to the outlawed National Liberation Front of Tripura ,the NLFT, broke into a temple near the town of Jirania on Sunday night and shot dead Shanti Tripura, a popular Hindu preacher popularly known as Shanti Kali.

The separatist group says it wants to convert all tribespeople in the state to Christianity.

The BBC correspondent in the region says the killing has created tension between the majority of tribals, who are Hindu or Buddhist, and the small number of Christian converts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/899422.stm

Split


The NLFT split into two groups, one headed by Biswamohan Debbarma and the other by Nayanbasi Jamatiya, in February 2001. Following the expulsion of Nayanbasi Jamatiya and Joshua Debbarma from the NLFT, nearly 125 cadres of the group formed a parallel outfit under the leadership of Nayanbasi Jamatiya. Police records based on interrogation reports of surrendered/arrested cadres reveal that the split occurred as a result of:


Reluctance of the Central Executive Committee of NLFT led by Biswamohan Debbarma to nominate Joshua Debbarma as the King of ‘Tripura Kingdom’;


Misappropriation of funds by senior leaders;


Lavish lifestyles led by the senior leadership; and


Forcible conversion of tribal cadres/civilians to Christianity.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... s/NLFT.HTM

Raju

Postby Raju » 21 Mar 2007 21:36

Portuguese didn't spare the Christians of south India too. Read up on something called the oath of the broken cross where the native christians rebelled against the Portuguese.

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Postby Alok_N » 21 Mar 2007 21:36

disha wrote:It will be OT to discuss the history in this thread ...


I don't see why it would be OT ... if you write informative posts about history, at least some of us will benefit ... I really don't know anything about Daman and Diu ... are thery still "special territories"?


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