Religion Thread 4

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Alok_N
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Post by Alok_N »

a double bonus!! ... not only C/D-ji, but TSJ-Maharaj himself broke his vow to post banalities ... 8)

TSJ, please book a flight to Hawaii and go ask them what they know about the nature of dark matter ... if you get an answer even a nickel more than ZERO, come champion Dalits on this thread ...

secondly, please go back and read what I wrote ... I was careful enough to type "essentially ZERO" just to make sure that yahoos with google do not go on a wild goose chase ...

to the serious readers, what TSJ has posted is a density map of the apparent distribution of lensing centers in the universe ... it is widely believed that such a profile is the result of quantum defects or some other fluctuation in the early universe ... however, that picture, unlike the proverb, is worth less than 1 word (as opposed to 1000) when it comes to understanding dark matter ...

now, TSJ, if I post more, you will consider it an insult, and I will have to work overtime to delete stuff ... [however, you should know better than to think that you can refute my posts with a google job ... if you haven't figured that out by now, I suspect you never will ... ]

added later: unbeknownst to you, you have bolstered my point ... pictures such as the one that you have posted are precisely the evidence for dark matter ...

you see, if there were no dark matter, those lensing centers would not exist ... the very fact that they do exist has put science in a situation of confusion ...

what is this dark matter stuff? why is it distributed in "veins" as that picture suggests? how did that density distribution come about? ...

many, many, questions ...

but thanks for posting that picture ... if I had posted it, C/D-ji would call it scientific "geek" stuff ... but coming from you, it has credibility ... :)
Last edited by Alok_N on 25 Mar 2007 11:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Johann »

Alok_N wrote:Johann,

science in essence deals with finding principles that govern physical reality ... if it deals with applying priciples already discovered, it is either applied science, or engineering, or basically stamp-collecting ...

cellular biology has not discovered a new physical priniciple ... neither has chemistry ... nor has geology of siesmic activity ...
But what level of physical reality?

The cellular organism, the plate system, these are all physical systems that the kind of physics you highlight can not and will not explain.

The absence or presence of dark matter isnt of any use in determining mendels laws of inheritance, the dynamics of climate change, etc.

The division between science and technology is generally accepted as being between discovery through systematic investigation and human efforts to harness discovery, not a few kinds of physics and everything else.
Alok_N wrote:I find all that junk about Pauline, Christ, whatever about as interesting as naming all the members of some species of insects ...
It is OK that they bore you - but that doesnt make them irrelevant.

Entomologists are vital when it comes to ecology and pest control.

Insects have a relationship to their environment that is vital when it comes to preventing locusts without killing off things.

A praying mantis and a locust may look alike - but those who rush off to kill every mantis will waste energy, and do ecological damage.

Mao as someone who thought being an expert on Marxism made him an expert on everything else decided birds were a pest who ate too much grain. So the bird population was decimated, but the result was a plague of crop-eating insects.
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Post by Alok_N »

Johann wrote:But what level of physical reality?

The cellular organism, the plate system, these are all physical systems that the kind of physics you highlight can not and will not explain.
not at all ... cellular biologists are working with physicists to understand protein folding ... or, to understand how chlorophyll works ... geologists are simulating plate tectonics on computers using fundamental physics of finite damped oscillators ...
The absence or presence of dark matter isnt of any use in determining mendels laws of inheritance, the dynamics of climate change, etc.
yes, dark matter will also not explain how one Dhaba can make excellent chicken-do-piyazaa while the one next to it ruins it ... these are all problems of "chemistry" or "stamp-collecting" ... science in its essence is pure ...
It is OK that they bore you - but that doesnt make them irrelevant.

Entomologists are vital when it comes to ecology and pest control.
surely, they are relevant, just like onions are relevant to chicken-do-piyazaa ... however, they have nothing to add to the business of religion and or physical reality ... pure science can actually challenge notions propagated by some religions and hence, it is relevant to this debate ...
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Post by Johann »

Alok_N wrote:Johann,
very well ... this is a policy area where you believe that the amateurs of "Indian AMerican Community" have the burden of action ...
Not really - The first two points are the most important ones, and those are challenges that various levels of govt in India would have to take up.

Treating religious *organisations* (as opposed to the futile task of trying to deal with religions as a whole) with different levels of privilege based on the degree to which they supported the constitution and territorial integrity of the country is a huge task, but one that will give an advantage to those bodies that play to a set of rules that benefit India.

The business of discouraging hate speech of any religion is also a challenging one.

Last year when I was walking down a major street in Banglaore when a man walked up and handed me a pamphlet and scurried away. It was some sort of Christian evangelist material essentially describing Islam as Satanic and calling for a religious crusade against Islam. This is hate speech, and its production and distribution should be discouraged.

On the previous religion thread I said in reply to V Sudhir on the previous thread, and to G. Subramaniam on the previous page that in the end that a strong, democratic government above religious passions is the best way to prevent a minority, even one with political power from turning itself in to a majority without the people's consent.

Govts have to be extremely careful when it comes to dealing with religious types of any persuasion. For example, Christian orphanages in the UK wanted the right to opt out of placing children with gay couples who passed background screening on the basis of their religious views. The govt said no, their religious views did not entitle them to flout the laws against discrimination. It was a wise move because that is the sort of rubbish the Islamists push much more aggressively.
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Post by Kumar »

Alok_N wrote:as far as I'm concerned they are both "wrong" ... the mathematician is perhaps more "right" than the theoretical physicist ...

but then neither of them is doing science ... :)
So, Einstein was not doing science???? :eek:

Anyway, lets get back to the topic of this thread.
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Post by Johann »

Alok_N wrote:
Johann wrote:But what level of physical reality?

The cellular organism, the plate system, these are all physical systems that the kind of physics you highlight can not and will not explain.
not at all ... cellular biologists are working with physicists to understand protein folding ... or, to understand how chlorophyll works ... geologists are simulating plate tectonics on computers using fundamental physics of finite damped oscillators ...
The absence or presence of dark matter isnt of any use in determining mendels laws of inheritance, the dynamics of climate change, etc.
yes, dark matter will also not explain how one Dhaba can make excellent chicken-do-piyazaa while the one next to it ruins it ... these are all problems of "chemistry" or "stamp-collecting" ... science in its essence is pure ...
In the end there is a unity to physical reality, so of course there is mutual-support.

But my point is that to a significant but limited extent each 'field' or slice of reality we look at through the disciplined approach we call science can march on without the particular physics you exalt above all else.

But even that physics can only move further as advances in fields like mathematics, computing, materials sciences, chemistry, and yes even biology adavance in order to provide the many tools physicists need to investigate and validate.
It is OK that they bore you - but that doesnt make them irrelevant.

Entomologists are vital when it comes to ecology and pest control.
surely, they are relevant, just like onions are relevant to chicken-do-piyazaa ... however, they have nothing to add to the business of religion and or physical reality ... pure science can actually challenge notions propagated by some religions and hence, it is relevant to this debate ...
- I am not in any way disputing the right of what you call 'pure' science on this thread.

Only disappointed that the implication is that those who arent in it dont come at the issues from a scientific background.

'Pure' science has not arrived at a final resting state. What is often today's informed speculation as to the axis of advance is tommorrow regarded later yesterday's regretful exuberance.

- In my view a great deal of most religions is bunkum, but it nevertheless fulfills specific human needs.

Any discussion of religion must be based on the realities of human psychological needs.

We can all aim to discern ultimate reality, whatever it may be, but none of that will change human natures.

It is the human condition, not physics that is the most relevant axis here.

You can *prove* to your satisfaction that Christ worship, Krishna worship, Allah worship, etc is pure nonsense.

It will not help you predict or deal with the substantial groups that will ignore you, chant their dogma back to you, or physically come after you.

There is the reality of physics, and the physical reality of humanity. The two have an uneasy and far from congruent co-existance, and that is also a reality we must deal with.
Last edited by Johann on 25 Mar 2007 12:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Alok_N »

ok, its late, but I need to post this just in case it appears that I am posting in a reactive manner ...

there is a wealth of stuff to be posted proactively that hopefully will provoke thought ...

why do I harp on the issue of Hindu thought being closer to science than other religious philosophy? ... the answer lies in nature of physical reality as explained by the various schools of thought ...

let's first consider science ... there is a large body of evidence that has established physical reality in two simple points:

1. The general theory of relativity that explains the structure of space-time and how matter perturbs this fabric ... this is the famous "bending of light by Venus" that was proposed by Einstein and observed by Sir Arthur Eddington around 1922 ... later Chandrasekhar extended it to stellar evolution and predicted black holes in late 30s ... now, black holes are an observed reality and the theory is firmly esconsed in evidence ...

2. The standard model of particle physics that mostly explains all the remaining phenomenon at the microscopic scale ... there are only two forces: the strong force that binds nuclei and the electroweak force (now united from erstwhile electromagnetic and weak forces) that explains just about everything else ...

yes folks, all of chemistry and biology are manifestations of the electromagnetic force in complex phenomenon ... the fundamentals of electromagnetism were worked out by Maxwell in the 19th century and refined by Dirac and Feynman in the 30s and 40s ... this stuff is old hat ...

Given these two disparate theories, it is no surprise that efforts are on to unite them ... "quantum gravity" woud be a theory that brings about the classical general theory of relativity into the regime of quantum mechanics which seems to govern all other phenomenon ...

now, why precisely, you may ask, should there be a unification? ... no one knows ... it is just a simple statement of beauty that just about every physicist believes in ...

so, how is that different from a Hindu who wants to believe in an ultimate unification?

Now, on to the nitty-gritty ... the fundamental problem in unification and in particle physics is that of the nature of the Vacuum ... this is the crux ... what do we mean by the state of "nothingness"? ...

there are wel worked out theories by Higgs et al that attempt to describe the physical vacuum and its properties ... they are merely theories, and no one knows the details ...

ponder for a minute, that Hindu thought introduced the concept of Shunya, which in arithmetic sence is "zero" but in physical sense is "vacuum" ...

if you are not convinced, consider the "elements" as propounded by various schools of thought ... earth, wind, water and fire are common ... but Hindu thought also has the element "akash", which I take to mean "space" ... this is a profound realization that "space" and/or "vacuum" is an essential player in describing physical reality ...

this is the biggest problem facing physics today ... how to incorporate vacuum or space dynamics into a description of reality ...

Let's now address the issues of dynamics of matter (the earlier discussion is about the discussion of energy in the absence of matter) ...

Hindu thought considers all of reality to be the product of Maya ...

Science consider all of reality to be the product of the Standard Model of Particle Physics, modified by gravity in ways which we don't yet appreciate ...

this is sort of remarkable, isn't it?

Moreover, the creation hymn of the Rig Veda is analogous to the Big Bang as someone has posted earlier ...

all of these coincidences aside, IMO, the clinching factor in the comparison is that both Science and Hindi thought has a cyclic model for the universe while some other religions consider it to be linear ...

there is "eternity" in all models, but a linear eternity is less palatable to science compared to a cyclic one, such asthat embodied in recent theories of cosmology ...

this post is getting way too long ... I'll end here ...
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Post by Arun_S »

Alok_N wrote:a double bonus!! ... not only C/D-ji, but TSJ-Maharaj himself broke his vow to post banalities ... 8)

TSJ, please book a flight to Hawaii and go ask them what they know about the nature of dark matter ... if you get an answer even a nickel more than ZERO, come champion Dalits on this thread ...

secondly, please go back and read what I wrote ... I was careful enough to type "essentially ZERO" just to make sure that yahoos with google do not go on a wild goose chase ...

to the serious readers, what TSJ has posted is a density map of the apparent distribution of lensing centers in the universe ... it is widely believed that such a profile is the result of quantum defects or some other fluctuation in the early universe ... however, that picture, unlike the proverb, is worth less than 1 word (as opposed to 1000) when it comes to understanding dark matter ...

now, TSJ, if I post more, you will consider it an insult, and I will have to work overtime to delete stuff ... [however, you should know better than to think that you can refute my posts with a google job ... if you haven't figured that out by now, I suspect you never will ... ]

added later: unbeknownst to you, you have bolstered my point ... pictures such as the one that you have posted are precisely the evidence for dark matter ...

you see, if there were no dark matter, those lensing centers would not exist ... the very fact that they do exist has put science in a situation of confusion ...

what is this dark matter stuff? why is it distributed in "veins" as that picture suggests? how did that density distribution come about? ...

many, many, questions ...

but thanks for posting that picture ... if I had posted it, C/D-ji would call it scientific "geek" stuff ... but coming from you, it has credibility ... :)


I have lived many interesting decades when western social scientists first ridiculed the fantastic description and numeric quantitative description of this creation including cosmos, only to await a for a time when scientific measurement & discoveries confirm those so called arcane Hindu Vedanta. The Hindu determination of age of this the current creation as 4.4 billion years was first laughed at when the scientists thought it be around 100 million years. {Christian scintologists are still stuck at a number many humdres times smaller, and living in scientific dark-ages}.

Similarly Indian Itihas (History) is dated way farther back than what all knowing superior Christians or Muslims could even count in AD1200.

Again first an incredulous response that how is human memory and history possible if God created man only in xyz years ago (typically 5000 years), but now are forced to admit and continuously push back the date of human evolution in this cycle. E.g. As of now modern human arrival date is pushed back from 10-20,000 year to 110,000 years ;)

What puts to shame/guilt ChrIslam scientists is accurate Hindu recording of cosmic events from previous Manvantar (i.e. previous cycle of material world creation), much before Sun, this Galaxy or Big-Bang. By connecting and being part of The One and Only Supreme Being.
Krishna, Krishna, Hare Krishna.

And of course the "Om" that one Lord GOD creative process (as described in Ved and Vedanta, & of course I must now add the Jewish ancient tradition). In particular the Manifested world and the Unmanifested, Maya the illusory power of the GOD that gave birth of this world. And that Maya as well all this created by Maya is GOD's creation and expansion. That time concept of how time coils out of nowhere. To a person brought up in Hindu tradition modern physics, astronomy, biology, philosophy is natural and symbiotic growth out of the its Books. Just Harmony. Unlike cooking up of bull cock stories of recent origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology
Last edited by Arun_S on 25 Mar 2007 22:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Alok_N »

the previous post has several typos but none that take away from the essence, so I will not fix them because there are several posts awaiting response ... first this:
Kumar wrote:So, Einstein was not doing science???? :eek:
Einstein was a genius who can not be described as a mere "theorist" ... why? ... he was responding to physical phenomena in his theories without resorting to unknown parameters ... the theories of "photoelectric effect", "Brownian motion" and "special theory of relativity" were precise ...

compare them to the new fangled "theories" of today ... the most touted theory of Supersymmetry has not one, not two, but 118 undetermined parameters ...

to call that a theory is like calling my version of chicken-do-piyazaa to be a delicacy ... :)
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Post by Alok_N »

Johann wrote:On the previous religion thread I said in reply to V Sudhir on the previous thread, and to G. Subramaniam on the previous page that in the end that a strong, democratic government above religious passions is the best way to prevent a minority, even one with political power from turning itself in to a majority without the people's consent.
here's where we agree ... this thread is intended as a wake-up call for GoI to realize the venom represented by EJ ...
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Post by Alok_N »

Johann wrote:In the end there is a unity to physical reality, so of course there is mutual-support.

But my point is that to a significant but limited extent each 'field' or slice of reality we look at through the disciplined approach we call science can march on without the particular physics you exalt above all else.
I am not sure what it is that you are objecting to ...

to clarify the matter, let's take your field ... if I may be so presumptuous, I will describe it as "analayis of world affairs with particular emphasis on historical facts and present day political realities" ....

fair enough?

now, if I may may submit, my local tavern buddies, namely the town's taxi driver and the town's preeminent plumber also have views that would fit into that job description ...

so would you, Johann, feel that in a good ol' equal-equal sense, the cabbie and the plumber have just as much to contribute to this debate as you? ...
Any discussion of religion must be based on the realities of human psychological needs.

We can all aim to discern ultimate reality, whatever it may be, but none of that will change human natures.
if that were the case, one could simply argue that all Prophets were bumkum as well ... as in, they did not add to "ultimate reality" but merely addressed the concerns of "human psycological needs" of their times ...

very well, you are now providing license to those posters who claim that Mohammed was about fulfilling the needs of his followers for polygamy and Christ was about ending the discrimination of some sections of the society in the middle east ...

if you agree that these dudes had nothinbg to add to the advancement of human knowledge with regards to physical reality, we have nothing left to argue about ... :)
You can *prove* to your satisfaction that Christ worship, Krishna worship, Allah worship, etc is pure nonsense.

It will not help you predict or deal with the substantial groups that will ignore you, chant their dogma back to you, or physically come after you.


you are a bit late with this sermon, Johann ... HMG chanted "freedom" etc to the Iraqis, but they came after her soldiers with a vengeance ...

try another tack more becoming of your status ... :)
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Post by Sadler »

Sadler wrote:Anti-semitism, originated with the catholic church, infected even martin luther, and found fertile ground for two millenia in christian countries.
Anand K wrote:The persecution of the Jews in Eastern Europe dates back to the Early Medieval Ages.
My bad. I meant to say "Christian" anti-semitism in my original post above.
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Post by Sadler »

rongsheng wrote:

What a load of BS. This is what happens when some one prophesizes something but it never happens. They have to twist the words beyond recognition and cook up some cr*p like this.

The story goes something like this. Jesus says in Matthew 31:24
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... &version=9;
"All these things" in the verse is the end of the world. Guess what, that generation passed away a long time back. Now church has a problem.
Is Jesus a liar? They cannot accept that, so they twist the meaning of "generation" to mean until all Jewish People are alive.
Did you mean to say "........until all Jewish people are DEAD?"
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Post by Rakesh »

Kumar, I apologise for not replying earlier. Been really busy.
Kumar wrote:Just as a curiosity, Rakesh are your views your personal views or are they shared by the orthodox church that you belong to?
They are my views. The above institution that you refer to has its share of evils and is ridden with curroption & scandals from the top down. They have changed the Gospel into some ritual. Organised churches are creating another generation of Christian robots. It is really sad. Gandhi said it best, "The only people who don't understand Christ are Christians themselves."

A few Sundays ago, I was listening to a sermon at church and the priest said the following, "God is not angry with you....in fact he loves you." As Christians, we have a terrible misconception of God - that he gets up every morning, puts on a white robe and jumps from one cloud to the next asking how He can make you happy today? God is actually angry at the pitiful condition that mankind has become.
Kumar wrote:On the other hand proselytization is not about coexistence, but a dynamic jostling and fighting for dominance. And boundaries are not only sharp but cutting. The bleeding edge if you will...
Christianity is spread through preaching. However it is the method of preaching which is being practised today, that is fundamentally wrong. As much as people from other faiths ought to hear the Gospel, the folks that really need to hear the Gospel are Christians themselves. Christians are also no longer setting good role models for others to follow. Thus it is no wonder that people do not want to hear the Gospel. Christians themselves are to blame for this.
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Post by Anand K »

Quote Arun_S
I onleee live on the fence, just venture out on missions, but man you were in the midst of the pure faithfuls. :Twisted Evil:
Now don't let qualities of the islamic faithfuls rub on you, and spare the poor Baaa Baaa Black Sheep


Pickings are slim, my good sir..... this is indeed a sad, sad war. Well, last night by the time the day's Ghanima was distributed down the ranks, my 7th Makran Spear Regiment (the 47th line of offense) had to be content with just an emaciated and foulmouthed fishwife.... with wonder of wonders, an Adam's apple!
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Post by Sadler »

S.Valkan wrote:If one doesn't understand the significance of a Vigraha for worship, it is difficult to respond to taunting "idol-worship" harangues by evanjihadis.
I found this quote by you a few threads ago. Do you mind, for my benefit, elaborating what you meant by the above??

I'd really appreciate it. It might help me out a bit personally when dealing with some rather nasty rapacious volves.
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Post by Johann »

Alok_N wrote:
Johann wrote:In the end there is a unity to physical reality, so of course there is mutual-support.

But my point is that to a significant but limited extent each 'field' or slice of reality we look at through the disciplined approach we call science can march on without the particular physics you exalt above all else.
I am not sure what it is that you are objecting to ...
Only the dismissal of those in 'impure' science as having valid scientific perspectives on religion.
to clarify the matter, let's take your field ... if I may be so presumptuous, I will describe it as "analayis of world affairs with particular emphasis on historical facts and present day political realities" ....

fair enough?
My fields have changed over time (I started in the impure sciences :) and then the uniform got me for a while), and I'm currently a nothing, but lets adopt it for the purposes of this discussion.
now, if I may may submit, my local tavern buddies, namely the town's taxi driver and the town's preeminent plumber also have views that would fit into that job description ...

so would you, Johann, feel that in a good ol' equal-equal sense, the cabbie and the plumber have just as much to contribute to this debate as you? ...
Potentially, yes, if the taxi driver and the plumber are talking about their experiences working abroad, interacting with people from other cultures, or even illuminating their own personal beliefs, and the degree to which their friends, family, colleagues, etc subscribe to them.
Any discussion of religion must be based on the realities of human psychological needs.

We can all aim to discern ultimate reality, whatever it may be, but none of that will change human natures.
if that were the case, one could simply argue that all Prophets were bumkum as well ... as in, they did not add to "ultimate reality" but merely addressed the concerns of "human psycological needs" of their times ...

very well, you are now providing license to those posters who claim that Mohammed was about fulfilling the needs of his followers for polygamy and Christ was about ending the discrimination of some sections of the society in the middle east ...

if you agree that these dudes had nothinbg to add to the advancement of human knowledge with regards to physical reality, we have nothing left to argue about ... :)
All religions build on human desires - like that their life has meaning in the grand scheme of things, that other humans will attend to their welfare, that when they pray they are actually communing with a higher power, that they can get said higher power to help them out, etc.

A religions ability to survive does depend on its ability to hold on to the minds of its followers through changing circumstances without producing total self-destruction. That requires some significant level of insight in to the dynamics of human behaviour, which often transcend a particular time and place.

For example in my view Islam's sanction to kill those leave the religion is distasteful, but is effective at maintaining Islam's numbers.

At the same time Islam offers compensations for those (in particular men) who not only stay in it, but support Sharia and political Islam; community-based welfare, greater authority within the family, special concessions from those who fear Islam, etc. Unfortunately that works whether its the 7th century Arabia or 21st century India.

Islam as an all-encompassing religion is always quick to engage in its own state-building activities, and states are particularly good at mobilising resources.

Evangelical Christianity's approach is based on appealing to those who feel socially excluded, and essentially arguing that their god must be real and others false because they the Christians have been more blessed with more financial security and/or with 'miracles' of healing, while drumming up a fear they lack sufficient spiritual insuarance for the after-life, etc.

Hinduism offered both a great deal of high philosophy about the nature of universe, a range of personal deities who grant wishes in exchange for acts of devotion, and a highly ordered social contract. It was also particularly good at absorbing large numbers of tribal peoples and integrating their folk relligions in to the Hindu pantheon while introducing them to Hindu thought.

Buddhism offers to take the pain of existance away, etc through a path of renunciation of the self and its desires. It was particularly good at focussing and calming the mind through meditation. Like Christianity it proclaims itself a religion of compassion for the suffering. Buddhism was also a religion that at least in the past which like Christianity and Islam believed in prosletysation, and also heavily depended on state sponsorship for best results. However unlike Islam it doesnt have the death penalty for back-sliding, and like Hinduism but unlike Christianity and Islam, it doesnt think that this life is your only chance to get it right
You can *prove* to your satisfaction that Christ worship, Krishna worship, Allah worship, etc is pure nonsense.

It will not help you predict or deal with the substantial groups that will ignore you, chant their dogma back to you, or physically come after you.


you are a bit late with this sermon, Johann ... HMG chanted "freedom" etc to the Iraqis, but they came after her soldiers with a vengeance ...
Actually, the entymolgy of religion is particularly applicable to Iraq.

Sunnis and Shia reacted in *very* different ways to the downfall of Saddam and the Baath Party, etc.

If the Americans had any idea that the Shia Arabs south would be so much less determined to undo the effects of the 2003 invasion than Sunni Arabs, they would have lobbied hard for Brits in Baghdad and Americans in Basrah, and disregarding logistical arguments.
Last edited by Johann on 25 Mar 2007 14:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RajeshG »

Johannji

Sorry to ask you this question again but just a gentle reminder, is the link below accurate ?

http://www.kimsoft.com/1997/xhist.htm

Thanks.
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Post by Johann »

RajeshG wrote:is the link below accurate ?

http://www.kimsoft.com/1997/xhist.htm

Thanks.
Sorry for the delay RG.

I think its accurate in terms of talking about how Korean churches became popular in part because of their support of Korean public sentiment whether it was nationalism, opposition to military dictatorship, etc.

I dont think its sufficient at all in terms of talking about the nature of religion in Korea before the 20th century, or why Christianity penetrated deeper in Korea than Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Sri Lanka, etc which also saw many upheavals and even longer direct contact with missionaries in colonial times.
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Post by Sadler »

Kumar wrote:
Kumar wrote:And hinduism doesn't say that only "believers" in hindu gods will get such high states or heaven. Anyone who is vituous whether he is devotee of Vishnu or Jesus will get his rewards based on his actions, not just on which religious tags he happens to wear.

Krishna says in Gita that he is present in the heart of all people. Not just hindus. The literal meaning of "Narayana", a name for Vishnu is "one whose abode is in all the people" (nara+ayana).

Key point is that God of the universe can't be so partial or little minded as to restrict salvation to chosen few based on merely their faith, and not their virtue. In hinduism virtue reins supreme, whether one believes in Shiva or Jehova or Allah is immaterial.

You are comparing an exclusivist religion with an inclusive one and not even realizing it.
Vick wrote:If Hinduism is as inclusive as you state, why so much angst about Hindus converting to Christianity? By accepting Christ, does the Hindu give up his nara+ayanna in the eyes of other Hindus? Or does being a believer in Christ make him less of an Indian?

You don't realize that Hindus and Hinduism aren't as inclusive as you think they are.
Actually, Vick. You yourself perfectly epitomize the intolerance that symboilized a neo-convert to christianism. And i cited an example to prove so earlier in the thread.

RE: The bolded text in your post. You missed the point as Kumar pointed out. Not the first time that has happened. So, here it is in bold for you why hindus converting to christianism might well prove very unhealthy for those that refuse to convert.

The reason for the angst about hindus converting to christianism is that once they converted to christianisn, they no longer remain tolerant. Their views become much like your upon conversion, where you now so readily condemn your own fellow hindus to hell, simply because they refuse to follow your new-found god.
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Post by Anand K »

Quote Johann
The pre-Christian Romans had frequently killed and persecuted Jews on a tremendous scale because the Jews refused to incorporate Roman state religion, which was seen as the ultimate act of disloyalty.

When Christianity went official in Rome two things happened

- Christianity stopped being a Jewish sect with a good number of gentiles/Greeks, and became a religion dominated by Gentiles/Greeks. Jews began to disassociate themselves from Christianity.

- The Jews were persecuted in the same way they had been persecuted before for rejecting the Roman Empire's official religion.
The Romans were no religious fundamentalists..... they tolerated those last strains of Egyptian religion, the pagan faiths of the Celts, Scythians and and the Sarmatians and even the Zoroasterians from the acquired territories of Parthia and Asia Minor. The Jewish rebellions were put down mercilessly but there was IMO no religious angle to it.... Vespasian and his son's act of destroying the temple is the same as a Julius Caesar smashing up the Briton's Sacred Groves or a Suetonious massacring the Iceni Druids during Boudica's revolt. Those institutions were a focal point of the revolt/resistance and razing them had tremendous psy-ops values onlee. Nothing personal, all business.

Jews were persecuted by the Romans (and the Persians before them) 'coz they used the religious identity to close the ranks. In those days of umpteen tribes who bickered endlessly, empires would make use of these divisions and move in with considerable ease. Now whenever something comes up that unites all these fruit-fly together, the emperor down to the local garrison commander goes apesh1t and DESTROYS that unifying icon. Julius Caesar made the defeated (and starved) Vercingetorix ,who had unprecedentedly united most of the Gallic tribes, circle him seven times (dressed in his finest armor)..... and then got him to strip his armor and weapons at Caesar's feet. He was then paraded in the two Triumphs and later garroted like a common criminal in the prison yard. The Gauls were so shocked that they stayed quiet and submissive for nearly half a millennium.

AFAIK the Babylonian Captivity is seen by the Jews as quite 'better' than the Roman destruction of Judea and the subsequent dispersion of the people. Even the Biblical references like Legion, The Beast, Armageddon, Whore of Babylon and Gehenna refers to events/prophecies/motifs that hark back to this Roman experience. Christianity and Judaism see this in the religious angle.... but as far as Roman records indicate, THEY saw all this was just another rebellion.
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Post by vsudhir »

Speechless in Bali - An ancient tradition resists the modern world

From the Economist.

V interesting article, IMO. The whole of Bali - the easternmost outpost of 'native' Hinduism in the world, goes on mauna vrata to welcome their new year. Bali to me represents the best of extra-subcontinental evolution of Hindu thought and way of life, from a common ancestral point some 2 millenia ago. Do they practise casteism, I wonder?

[quote]Observance of Nyepi has become stricter in recent years. Until about ten years ago, holidaymakers were given tours of the deserted streets. Until 2000, the island's airport remained open during the holiday. The rest of Indonesia has a large Muslim majority but, despite much talk of “creeping Islamisationâ€
Raju

Catholic church collects money for mosque

Post by Raju »

Catholic church collects money for mosque

When the Rev. Franz Meurer stands at the altar this Sunday in his priestly vestments, he'll say to the congregation: "Today's collection is for the construction of the big new mosque in Ehrenfeld."

Meurer, 55, is not expecting protests. Both the board of Cologne's St. Theodore Catholic Church and the parish council have unanimously approved the action.

"It's only natural that we're helping them," he said of the Muslims living in a city that is one of the main centres of Catholicism in Germany.

http://www.expatica.com/actual/article. ... y_id=37774
Raju

Female German Judge Rules Koran Allows Wife Abuse

Post by Raju »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070322/wl ... 0322132641

German judge rules Koran allows wife abuse


BERLIN (AFP) - A German woman judge has refused a Moroccan-born woman permission to file for divorce by interpreting the Koran as allowing husbands to beat their wives.

German politicians from all parties were united in disgust at the judgement.

"When the Koran takes precedence over the German Basic Law, then I can only say: Good night Germany," Ronald Pofalla, the secretary general of the conservative Christian Democratic Union of Chancellor Angela Merkel, told Bild.

Hans-Christian Stroebele, of the opposition Greens, said the kind of abuse suffered by the woman should be punished by German criminal law.
Raju

German judge condemned for citing Quran

Post by Raju »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070323/ap_ ... an_divorce
AP


Disciplinary measures are being "considered" against the judge.
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Post by Alok_N »

Johann,

have to run to a meeting ... will respond later ... actually, we are not that far apart if we can lay the business of "impure" science to rest ... :)

vsudhir,

my favorite quote from a Bali hindu ...
yes sir, we also respect the cow ... but then, we also eat it ...
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Post by rongsheng »

Sadler wrote: Did you mean to say "........until all Jewish people are DEAD?"
Yes, if that helps you in understanding what I was saying.
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Post by vsudhir »

Alok_N wrote:
vsudhir,

my favorite quote from a Bali hindu ...
yes sir, we also respect the cow ... but then, we also eat it ...



LOL. I got no beef with beef. Alrite, I don't eat it but judge/grudge those who do, either.
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Post by rongsheng »

Vick wrote:If Hinduism is as inclusive as you state, why so much angst about Hindus converting to Christianity? By accepting Christ, does the Hindu give up his nara+ayanna in the eyes of other Hindus? Or does being a believer in Christ make him less of an Indian?

You don't realize that Hindus and Hinduism aren't as inclusive as you think they are.
No, it makes converted person to follow his new religious book which is filled with hatred towards other religions. Read your bible carefully, it tells the stories of its prophets killing innocent children,women and men just because they followed a different god. Just to give an example, see the quote below. Bible is filled with stuff like this. If you compare Bible and Quran in terms of terror tactics they are almost even.
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=31;

Assuming bible is true, Christian god is the biggest mass murderer. He kills off everyone except Noah's family in the flood. Hmm... talk about a real terrorist. I guess he saves Noah's family because they follow him as the real god. I guess it is halal for christian god to kill innocents without even blinking. I digress, may be I am missing something here, doesn't this saving just one family lead to incest. Lets go back all the way to Adam and Eve. They had children. Did Adam take his daughters as wifes? or Eve took her sons as husbands? Or the siblings married each other?
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Post by rongsheng »

Christianity and Slavery.
Christian god does not say slavery is morally wrong. Infact, Christian god allows slavery. Christians do not go to hell for having slaves. Christian god tells his followers, if they want to kill a slave and not be punished, do it in the halal way. Make the slave suffer for a day or two and there will be no consequences because slaves are just like money.
20"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=47;

If you are a really good Christian , Christian god will bless you with lots of slaves just like how he blessed Abraham.
The LORD has greatly blessed my master, and he has become rich. He has given him sheep and cattle, silver and gold, male and female slaves, and camels and donkeys.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=77;

And of course other christians will follow the 10th commandment and will not covet your slave(s).
17 Do not covet your neighbor's house. Do not covet your neighbor's wife, his male or female slave, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. (A)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=77;

In case you did not read Numbers chapter 31 of Bible, Christian god also gets his share of 32 virgin female slaves from that booty.
and from the 16,000 people,
the tribute to the LORD was 32 people.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=77;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=77;
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Post by Neupane »

The Director OF TII (London based Think tank)Mr.Anuja Parashar published a sholarly reserach paper to expose the motive of some of the UK MP's and of some Evanjehadis US congress men's outburst on Anti-Conversion laws and there deliberate effort to put it as vioaltion of basic humanrights. The reserach paper shows that their target is 290 millions poor and lower caste Hindus. Through various Evanjalical funded projects under favorable UPA govt., elaborate programs are palnned to convert them in to Christanity in an attempt to polarize further the Indian society and making them into a major political force.

This is the letter He wrote

British Members of Parliament petitioned the Indian High Commission, UK to
suggest that Indian Anti-Conversion Laws were in breach of Human Rights,
Religious Freedom and Democracy.

Based in the UK, I have developed a Transnational Think Tank and in
response to the MPs actions formed a Multinational research project to
assess this situation.(with collegues from USA & India) The full report
can be seen on www.t-identity.com under FAITH section of front page.

The findings reveal a global Christian Evangelical Movement of collosal
magnitude with a very strong focus on India and it's poor. The Joushua
Project effort since 2000 has been to RELABEL the 290 million people in
600,000 villages of India below the pverty line as Christians. I don't
need to tell you what the ramifications for the success of such an
endeavour would be! Up until recently the church planting efforts have
been very succuessful and rapidly increasing in force ....

Tracing the backgrounds of the MPs we discovered connections to Far Right
Christian groups and the conservative parties of N.America & Europe. We
have also discovered how these groups are useing the Dalit issue to
promote evangelism by reinforcing the catse sytem and also suggesting that
caste discrimination is a slave trade. So being able to capitalise on the
bicentinial celebrations in UK commorating the Abolition of Slavery.

My presentation on 21st March'07 of the findings, assessment and naming
and shaming of these organistions and MPs can be accessed at -
http://www.t-identity.com/seminars-lectures.php

The whole Hindu Samaj within the UK has taken up this cause - it has
become a cause that has united everyone across all denominations, language
groups and includes Sikhs, Jains, Zorastrans and Buddhists. Members of
Parliament and all the Churches are being made aware of the offense felt
by these groups ... time will tell how effective this unique united force
of Indian origins will be.

Anuja Prashar
Executive Director TII
London Office

www.t-identity.com

Please Click on FAITH.

Thanks-

Neupane
Last edited by Neupane on 26 Mar 2007 04:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Johann »

Alok,

No problem, reply when you can. This thread is a serious threat to time management.

As for the other thing, can we agree to no pure or impure science? In other words biologists or cog sci person can comment on a religions congruency with current thought in their field without being dismissed as someone who 'doesnt do science'.

Rongsheng,

The Jewish Torah/Tanakh and the Christian's "Old Testament" are basically the same works.

So if you feel it is the OT that makes Christian god bloody, you will have to include Judaism in the same boat.

If you feel its the book of Revelations, or the peculiarities of Christianity's history that set it apart then that's another matter.

My 2p is that it is the freedom to make creative interpretation within a given religion that allows it to grow and evolve.

In that regard Hinduism has almost infinite flexibility, although in the last 1,000 years that has tended to be manifested in a reactive (or in cases like Savarkar and his inheritors reactionary) manner.

Both Christianity and Judaism have gone through many changes, and will go through many more if they are to survive.

Islam is designed to if necessary violently resist change beyond certain parameters. It is determined to avoid slow heat death at any costs.
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Post by SaiK »

Buddhism
Form is emptiness; emptiness also is form. Emptiness is no other than form; form is no other than emptiness. In the same way, feeling, perception, formation, and consciousness are emptiness. Thus, Shariputra, all dharmas are emptiness. There are no characteristics. There is no birth and no cessation. There is no impurity and no purity. There is no decrease and no increase.
no wonder neutrinos can pierce many or all forms known to us. good concepts of spiritualizm.. of course, goes without saying, one has to really get old to accept this.. since, most of the younger minds need more form-full activities, that is void of emptiness.

:wink:
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Post by rongsheng »

Johann,
I do know that Old testament/Jewish Torah are the same/similar. The Christian god worries me more because it is Christian evangelists who are hell bent upon saving me and my fellow co-religionists. I have never been approached by a Jewish preacher who wants to save me. I don't care what anyone does in their private life. But if someone comes to me at a bus stop and thows at me a pamplet and asks me to be saved. I have a big problem with that. And Christian evangelists have done that to me several times. Christians evangelists in India are using the colonial legacy as a tool in promoting their religion. The colonial legacy that I am talking about is the schools/medical facilities etc. Their is a very subtle and not so subtle indoctrination going on in these schools. Even in schools which have government funding, the christian evagelists are trying damn hard to convert hindus using unwholesome means.

There has not been sufficient exposure of cruelty of Christian god in India. Christians/Christian evangelists have successfully media managed to show that their god is a loving , and caring god. I am trying to show that Christian god and their bible contains untold cruelty towards other religions and is hateful of the other in general. When the veil is lifted from this "loving and caring" Christian god it will be more difficult to indulge in the evengelistic rhetoric that is currently used in the nefarious conversion business.
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Post by Johann »

rongsheng wrote:
There has not been sufficient exposure of cruelty of Christian god in India. Christians/Christian evangelists have successfully media managed to show that their god is a loving , and caring god. I am trying to show that Christian god and their bible contains untold cruelty towards other religions and is hateful of the other in general. When the veil is lifted from this "loving and caring" Christian god it will be more difficult to indulge in the evengelistic rhetoric that is currently used in the nefarious conversion business.
I'm just saying that be aware that if you are aiming at Christianity via the "Old Testament" you will also hit the Torah and Judaism whether you intend to or not because you are talking about the same texts.

It is of course your prerogative to treat that as an acceptable and unavoidable casualty.

However the disturbing the account of what followed the Israelites return from exile in Egypt, it is not something the evangelists commonly employ in their rhetoric, and therefore not a particularly effective stick to beat them with.

On the other hand there's plenty of scariness in Revelations, and not much forgiveness in Paul's epistles. In fact the evangelical types are as big on hellfire, anti-christ and armageddon talk from those books as they are on the "For God So Loved The-World-That-He-Gave-His-Only-Begotten-Son" business.
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Post by svinayak »

Anand K wrote:The Early Church had a hand in stoking hatred against the Jews..... it's something like the Pakis being uncomfortable with their Indian past. The ethnic identity of Jesus, his status as a Jewish Messiah (till the Paulines extended the whole idea of Jesus), the fact (disputed though) that the first church was in Jerusalem and of quite a different character than the Church of Rome all have contributed to the fear of Judaism.
I will post this again because this post will be used again and again regarding the history of Pauline Christianity.
Another fundamental phenomenon of major geopolitical consequence was not merely Christianity's growing out of the confines of Judaism, but of it actually developing serious and fundamental anti-Jewish moorings. The exact causes and reasons for this are the subject of much research today, we shall see that the anti-Jewish theme developing right from Jesus Christ himself.

The Jews refusal to recognize Jesus' claim to being the messiah or prophet resulted in an open conflict between "the Jews" and Jesus. For specific example, we refer our reader to John 8:31-8:59, a dialogue between Jesus and "the Jews". The Jews challenge Jesus claim to prophethood, accuse him of being possessed by a demon, and in turn Jesus defends himself as "son of God", and calls the Jews liars and children of the devil. This would certainly be a recurring theme...we shall see the same with Mohammed, and again with Luther etc....where the Jews refuse to recognize the claim of the prophet to prophethood and the religion of the prophet turns against the Jews. The development of the dogma of the divinity of Christ made a breach between the church and the synagogue. Judaism could not admit of the deification of a man; to recognize any one as the son of God was blasphemy; and as the Jewish Christians had not severed their connections with the Jewish community, they were disciplined. This accounts for the flagellation of the Apostles and the new converts, the execution of Stephen and of the Apostle James. [In this and only in this context, we have put inverted commas around "the Jews", because this is not quite "the Jews", but "the Jews in power of Judea", claiming to represent conventional Jewry.]

Further, the claim by subsequent Christians: "They killed our Lord" is to a good extent true. Although, it was the Roman governor Pontius Pilate who finally sentenced Jesus to crucifixion, it should be kept in mind that he had at least tried (if not his very best), to prevent this. He had passed the sentence under pressure from what was certainly a Jewish crowd, yelling for Jesus' death. These were probably hirelings of the Sanhedrin, paid to do the shouting. It is also true that the grounds for the death sentence were unjustified. The Jews did everything they could to convince Pilate that Jesus was advocating a revolt against Caesar (Luke 23.2). We should also keep in mind the fact that the Sanhedrin had clearly "played politics", for when Jesus was initially produced before this Jewish body, they charged him with blasphemy for calling himself the son of God, warranting a death sentence in those days. However, when they produced him before the Roman authorities, they used a different charge: advocating a revolt against Caesar and instigating the Jews to stop paying taxes to the Rome. Pilate was clearly unconvinced of the validity of even this latter charge. Perhaps a case could be made that Pilate could have taken Jesus to Rome for further trial, but it must be kept in mind, that Jesus was at the time a nobody in the eyes of the Romans. At any rate, not just ordinary Christians, but the Gospels would explicitly state this. For examples where the Gospels blame the Jews for the death of their messiah, we refer the reader to Matthew 27:25, Paul 1, John 8:44, Mark 2:6, 15:10,16; 3:6, Luke 23:4, 14, 20, 22, 25 and Thessalonians 2:15.

We next examine the case of anti-Judaism with apostle Paul. The easiest starting point for our reader would be to recognize that Paul was fundamentally a double-speak. In his own words he was all things to all men, to Jews a Jew, to Gentiles a Gentile. Paul, who spent most of his time with the Gentiles, told the Gentiles that Judaism was dead. Of course, he could not say the same when he was with Jews. Again, when Paul went to Rome, he explicitly blamed the Jews for murdering the messiah, being careful not to apportion any blame on the Romans. This was of course with an obvious political motive -- the Romans were not getting along too well with the Jews. Paul (and his disciple Luke) made every attempt to belittle the others involved in the early rise of Christianity. In particular, Paul attempts to paint himself as being initially "equal to" and then "superior to" the elders of Jerusalem. However, this was not quite the case. The fact of the matter is that the Elders of Jerusalem were not the timid stupids of Paul's fiction, but scholarly men who were reverred greatly by the populace in Jerusalem, as well as by the Sanhedrin and by the Sadduccees. On an initiative from James, who as we have mentioned earlier, started the Jerusalem Church (which essentially preached Jewish nationalism), along with Peter and John summoned Paul to Jereusalem for cross-questioning. Here, he pretended to be a devout Jew and claimed he had taught his converts nothing contrary to Jewish law. Of course, it is not easy to tell a lie forever, and a break with the mainstream Judaism was inevitable. He was accused of apostasy from Judaism and of preaching against the law. This was in fact exactly what he was doing. He had thus made many enemies, including from amongst his former friends who now realized that he was deceiving them. Thus, the fundamental role played by Paul in taking Jesus' message to the Gentiles had inherent in it the seeds of dispute. And when he declared that in order to come to Jesus one need not pass through the Synagogue, nor accept circumcision, the ties which bound Christianity to Judaism were torn. While Judaism would remain an ideology centered around the promised land, Christianity had broken these chains and would become a world movement.

The early Christians also saw themselves as separate from the Jews, and became increasingly unpatriotic. They no longer had the same passion for Judea that the Jews had, although many continued to abhor Rome.
For good example, the Christians had refused to join the Zealots and the uprising at Galilee, in attempting to liberate Jerusalem from the Romans. They fled both when the Jewish resistance initially won and again subsequently when Jerusalem and Israel was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, no Christian met his death amidst the destruction.

With the Jews now in the diaspora called the "Roman Exile", the relations between the Jews and Jewish-Christians worsened. Being driven out of Israel, the Jews reconvened the Sanhedrin in Jabne and now attached themselves more strongly to their Law. Deprived of their home, the Jews took the Law as their cherished heritage and those who attacked it would be far worse enemies than the Romans. Thus, it was that the Jews found themselves fighting against the Christian doctrine that was making more and more converts from amongst the Jews. For example, we quote Rabbi Tarphonor: "The Gospels must be burned; paganism is not as dangerous to the Jewish faith as the Jewish Christian sects. I should rather seek refuge in a pagan temple than in an assembly of Jewish Christians". Nor was he the only one who thought so, for several Rabbis had recognized the threat from rising Christianity.

The Jews thus saw the loss of their influence and saw their beliefs and faith, attacked by the neophytes. The Christians felt equally bitter when Jewish elders obstructed their efforts at proselytization and furious hatred was mutual. The road to violence was now short. The Jews did not behave passively in the face of attacks from the Christians. They had not, as yet, acquired the stubborn and touching resignation which was to become characteristic of some of them later. They challenged the argumentation of priests and retaliated violently where they were physically attacked. They fought Christian proselytism with their own. Violent sermons were preached in synagogues, and Jewish preachers thundered against Rome, the Rome of the Caesars which had now become the Rome of Jesus. While Rome of Caesars had ravaged the land of the Jews, they found Rome of Christ threatening to destroy their faith. They did not content themselves with rhetoric and excited their brethren to revolt. The Jews took up arms during the rule of Gallus, Constantius' nephew, but they were severely repressed by Gallus and his general, Ursicinus. A mass butchery followed, Tiberias and Lydda were half destroyed, Sepphoris was razed to the ground and the catacombs of Tiberias were filled with Jews evading capture and death.

After Constantine's Edict of Milan, legalizing Christianity, and the militarization of the church in Rome, anti-Judaism became harsher, more severe and aggressive. The Christians argued with the Jews that it was they, the Christians, that were the only faithful to tradition, for they fulfilled the prophecies and the details of their dogmas were foretold by the scriptures. They no longer tried to win over the Jews to the fold of Christianity; the Jew was regarded less as a potential Christian than as unrepenting vermin. Pains were taken to forget that Jesus and the Apostles were Jewish in origin and to forget that Christianity was born in the shelter of the Judaism. This oblivion perpetuated itself, and today who in all Christendom would acknowledge that he bows to a poor Jew and perhaps a humble Jewess of Galilee?

Matters worsened in 323 AD when Constantine defeated Lucinius of the Eastern Empire and then started blatantly showing favors to the Christian church and gave the church what was to be the equivlaent of imperial power. He banned Jewish proselytism and revived an ancient Roman law which prohibited the Jews from circumcising their slaves; they were stripped of their former privileges and barred from Jerusalem, (except on the anniversary of the destruction of the Temple, and that upon payment of a special tax in silver), and were denied Roman citizenship in the other provinces of the empire. Jewish teachers were threatened with death if they taught about Judaism. Taxation of the Jews increased and they were forced to slave for the Roman officialdom. In 337 AD, Constantius made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death and by 339 AD converting to Judaism was a criminal offense.The Christian preachers took advantage of this situation to pressure Jews into baptizing.

In the cities, monks and bishops denounced pagans and Jews, inciting against them the Christian populace and leading fanatical mobs in assaults upon temples and synagogues.
Under Theodosius I, and under Arcadius, synagogues were burned at Rome and at Callinicus, in Mesopotamia. Under Theodosius II, at Alexandria, St. Cyril stirred up the mob and Christian hermits invaded the city and massacred all the Jews and Pagans they met. They assassinated the famous female mathematician Hypathia, plundered synagogues, set the libraries on fire, defying the efforts of the prefect Orestes whom the Emperor later disavowed. Similar attacks were led by Simon the ascetic at Imnestar, near Antioch and by Zeno at Antioch itself.

The bishops and priests attacked the Jews in vile language at their sermons. Several example can be cited: (Hosius in Spain; Pope Sylvester; Paul, bishop of Constantine; Eusebius of Caesarea, St. Cyril, Gregory of Nyssa, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, St Ambrose; the last four were the Great Doctors of the Western or Latin church ), St. Fulgentius, and there is the well known sermons (homilies "Adversus Judaeos" ) by the very popular preacher of Antioch, St. John of Antioch ( known later as Chrysostom= "Golden Mouth" around 400 AD; one of the Four Great Eastern Doctors of the Ancient church):

Over and over again the Christian bishops would refer to the Jews as "shameless, obstinate and deceitful", "Judaic serpents with Judas as the model", "impious ignoramuses, dogs, herd of brutes, beasts and brigands, wolves etc", "thieves, impure, debauchees, rapacious, misers, crafty, oppressors of the poor, plunderers and cheats", "deserving of all kinds of suffering", "seek nothing but to have children, possess riches and be healthy". "Their synagogues are playhouses, abodes of Satan", "the Jewish disease must be guarded against", "if one thought Judaism was true, he could leave the church, if not leave Judaism", "Stay away from the Jews who call the cross an abomination and whose religion is null and useless", "their suffering was due to them: they got what they deserved for killing the Son of God", "they knew God the Father, but chose to kill his son", "Satan dwells among them", " heretics, departing from the life of the Catholic church, deserving of the eternal fire prepared for the devil" etc etc.


Some consequences:
The church would remain anti-Judaic till this very day, and the Jews would suffer greatly at the hands of the church through the millenia. The Doctrine of Manifest Destiny was used to justify punishment for the Jews as being divinely ordained for not having come over to the Christian belief. Once the church gained control of most of Italy, confinement and ghettoization of Jews started and conditions in the ghettoes depended on economic and political need of church. The Jews had to pay a ransom in order to survive in the ghettoes. With the spread of Christianity to other kingdoms and over Europe, the persecution of Jews assumed global proportions. In the century following Gregory’s papacy, the Jews were already being hounded out of several countries of Europe. King Dagobert, in 626 AD, expelled them from France, although they did subsequently have a brief respite during the reign of the Carolingian dynasty. In 694 AD the Spanish monarchy, with open collusion from the church, forced the Jews to choose between conversion and slavery. The same was repeated in Portugal, where the persecution was particularly severe between 600-1000 AD. It was marked by massacres and economic loot of the Jews and their properties.

The Jews were thus forced to migrate eastwards, moving into Southern France and Pirennes Mountains in North Spain (related to today's Basque separatism), then onto Poland, Hungary, Russia, Mongolia and finally China. However, as Christianity spread to each of these countries, the persecution of Jews would accquire a worldwide proportion. They would start adopting Christian disguises to avoid detection and death or expulsion. Secret Jews (Conversos in Spain or Moranos in Portugal) were usually prominant wealthy Jews who officially converted to Christianity but practically remained Jewish. They were able to gain the confidence of the Spanish and Portuguese kings giving rise to a group called "Hoffjudens" or "court Jews". This group would help Jewish resistance over Europe and Asia.

The church was alarmed at the rise and penetration of these Secret Jews and decided to react. But they waited for the next four centuries till the last crusades were finally won in 1491 in Granada. Although during the crusades the intensity of the persecution of Jews decreased, they were still targetted in an indirect manner. The crusades were primarily aimed at liberating Palestine from islamic rule, but the crusading armies often used to pillage and kill Jews on their way to the holy land.

The decicive victory by Spain left Europe with Spain and Portugal (both Catholic) as the major naval powers. Once islam was controlled, the Church turned back to Europe to cleanse the continent from what it perceived to be the eternal menance -- Jews. In the period after the crusades, the Jews of Germany were routinely humiliated and sometimes massacred after accusations of treachery, poisoning of wells etc. Many German Jews fled eastward. Several Polish noblemen of the middle ages showed special favor to Jews who immigrated because of persecution in Germany, coupled with a Polish desire for Jewish expertise in commerce.

The Jews did well in Poland, until recently. Although Catherine the Great was the first to give the Jews political rights, resulting in an influx of a million Jews into Russia, the Orthodox church was not too happy. It urged them to accept Christianity, leading to riots and slaughter later in the century. In Germany, Martin Luther King had initially fantasized that the Jews, whom he was attracted to, would flock to his version of the church. However, as was the case with Jesus, the Jews refused to recognize his claims to being a messiah and he then turned against them. He had earlier, in 1523, written the pro-Jewish book "That Christ Was Born a Jew" . But now he turned against this "damned and rejected race," and wrote "Against the Sabbatarians" (in 1538 AD) followed by "On the Jews and Their Lies".

Unlike the church which broke all links to any "motherland" (it had never accepted one in the first place), the Jews did have a historic home or promised land where they had once lived and fought for. But the hated Romans had devastated their political kingdom, and soon after they were completely driven out by the muslims. What was worse, they were beginning to realize that they were insecure in every country they fled to, as it seemed the church (and subsequently islam) followed them there. (This would happen even in India, where they thought they had found safe haven amongst the Pagan Indians. They were soon disabused of this notion, for the Catholic Portuguese Albuquerque instituted the Goan Inquisition, specifically aimed at hounding the Jews out of Goa.)
Last edited by svinayak on 26 Mar 2007 06:48, edited 2 times in total.
shyamd
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Post by shyamd »

Acharya, if you don't mind, I would like to discuss with you secularism and hinduism outside this board, that we were discussing earlier. I don't mind discussing here.

Just want to get your insights into your views.

Thanks.
Last edited by shyamd on 26 Mar 2007 02:09, edited 1 time in total.
G Subramaniam
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Post by G Subramaniam »

So if you feel it is the OT that makes Christian god bloody, you will have to include Judaism in the same boat.
--

The Koran is simply a rehash of the OT, and that is what makes it so bloody
since, islam globalises the war against infidels which in the OT had been limited to Canaan

There is no way to defeat xtianity without taking aim at the OT

Jews no longer follow the OT verbatim, Judaism is now Rabbinical rather than Prophetical
--

Actually, I feel that the targeting the OT alone will not defeat the EJs
since the standard EJ argument is that JC rewrote the OT laws

The light of archeology must be shined on the Personage of JC

Excerpts below from Hamsa.org

The historicity of Jesus Christ as described in the gospels has been
for a long time one of the principal dogmas of all Christian
denominations. In India where the history of the search for the Jesus of
history remains unknown even to the so-called educated elite, the
missionaries continue to hawk this dogma without fear of contradiction.

Here is Edward Gibbon, the foremost Historian of the Roman period, as early as 1770, coming to the conclusion that JC never existed

It is, however, strange that Jewish
historians who lived and wrote during the same period or a little
later, fail to notice him as well as the religion supposed to have been
founded by him. Philo (20 BC-54 AD), who wrote a history of the
Jews, knows no Jesus Christ and no Christians. So also another historian
of the same period, Justus of Tiberius.
The most remarkable case is that of Flavius Josephus who lived
from AD 36 or 37 to 99 or 100. He completed two monumental works —
The Jewish War in 77 AD and the Antiquities of the Jews fifteen years
later. The histories mention no Jesus Christ. His first work relates to
AD 66-74 when the Romans put down a widespread Jewish rebellion in
Palestine, and by which time the Christian church at Jerusalem is supposed
to have functioned for 35 years. The work has not a word about Jesus or
his followers. Christian apologists point to two passages, one long
and the other very short, which mention Jesus as a wise man and also as
Christ. But scholars have proved quite convincingly that both of them are
either clumsy Christian interpolations or have been tempered with by
Christian scribes.2 It has to be remembered that none of the manuscripts
of Josephus’ Antiquities is older than the eleventh century, so that
Christian scribes have had ample opportunities for tempering with
the text.
The Greeks and Romans have left to posterity a vast historical and
philosophical literature written in or referring to the time-bracket when
Jesus is supposed to have lived. But it is unaware of him. Seneca (2
BC-66 AD), Pliny the Elder (23-79 AD), Martial (40-102 AD), Plutarch
(45-125 AD), Juvenal (55-140 AD), Apuleius (d. 170 AD), Pausanius
(d. 185 AD), and Dio Casius (155-240 AD) do not mention any Jesus or
Christ. Epictetus (50-100 AD) refers to Galileans starting with Judas the
Galilean who led the Jewish revolt against Rome in the first decade of the
first century, but not to Jesus of Nazareth who is supposed to have
come from Galilee shortly afterwards
Much has been made by Christian apologists of a few words or stray
passages referring to “Chrestusâ€
Calvin
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Post by Calvin »

There is something dysfunctional about the discussion on this forum on religion.

It appears that there are a lot of posters who are personally familiar with one religion, and their world view essentially admits a positive reflection of this. By demographic make up, the posters are predominantly apparently hindu, with one self proclaimed christian and jew.

Then we have posters (including some that belong to the previous category) that have made comments about other religions, in general these comments are adverse in nature and in many cases based on commentary posted by others on the web.

For understanding, there must be dialogue, and it is not apparent that there is dialog of any kind, just a monologue - people talking about how great hinduism is (almost no counter discussion), people talking about the flaws in islam (no counter argument), people talking about the flaws in christianity (almost no counter argument), people not talking about buddhism (no pro or con), and people not talking about judaism.

At the end, the only thing that is reinforced is that people like people who are like them.

Given this, what is really being accomplished?
Calvin
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Post by Calvin »

There is no way to defeat xtianity...
Does this count as Hate Speech, Mr. Sadler?
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