Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Maram · Post by **Maram** » 25 Mar 2011 05:26

Lot of rejoicing amongst my UK friends at seeing India Dump Australia out of the world cup!

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 29 Mar 2011 00:20

EU-India free trade deal delayed

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/glob ... layed.html

Tata Motors to invest £50m in UK research and development

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... pment.html

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 Mar 2011 01:41

Maram wrote:Lot of rejoicing amongst my UK friends at seeing India Dump Australia out of the world cup!

It's because UKstanis too got booted out from the tournament.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 30 Mar 2011 01:23

deleted

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 30 Mar 2011 01:25

England: No-Go Areas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0BbWmPKCyk

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 30 Mar 2011 01:39

BTW BBC world service for Europe (on MW648) has met its 72.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 02 Apr 2011 11:29

Any further discussion on the peculiarities and particularities of British Indian refugees from Eastern Africa will not be tolerated, and will result in a summary ban to whoever indulges. I'm deleting all the relevant posts above that I can find. Think before you post people!

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 06 Apr 2011 16:01

Cameron in Pakistan: Sorry, but it’s not right to apologise
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... ogise.html

David Cameron: Britain caused many of the world's problems
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... blems.html

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 07 Apr 2011 13:58

Pakistan's problem is that we did not make it British enough

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwes ... sh-enough/

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » 07 Apr 2011 16:37

Haresh wrote:Pakistan's problem is that we did not make it British enough

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwes ... sh-enough/

Al-Guardian no less....

Meanwhile Pakistan has made little progress in nation-building, tribal loyalty is supreme, and cousin marriage – an absolute guarantor of national failure, since it retards the development of civil society – is widespread. Meanwhile the country is rated 143rd on Transparency International’s corruption index (a good measure of civil virtue, which itself is a fairly good measure of national loyalty), which means that for all the good our aid money will do, we may as well build a new Millennium Dome. Out of chocolate. In the Western Isles.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » 07 Apr 2011 16:47

Watch this nice documentary about a middle class Brit converting to RoP and joining the great hope of SDRE's Anjem Chaudari.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz5c4NtmbCA

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 07 Apr 2011 20:51

>>Barf begin

BBC News Magazine
7 April 2011 Last updated at 11:03 GMT
Is Britain to blame for many of the world's problems?
Comments (401)

David Cameron has suggested that Britain and the legacy of its empire was responsible for many of the world's historic problems. But is that view fair?

Answering questions from students in Pakistan on Tuesday, the prime minister said: "As with so many of the problems of the world, we are responsible for their creation in the first place."

Here two historians give their view.
Nick Lloyd, lecturer in defence studies, King's College London

Mr Cameron's remarks about the painful legacy of colonialism could not be further from the truth and they reveal a disappointing lack of historical judgment. The British Empire in India, known as the Raj, was the greatest experiment in paternalistic imperial government in history.

By the time the British left India in 1947 they had given the subcontinent a number of priceless assets, including the English language, but also a structure of good government, local organisation and logistical infrastructure that still holds good today. Far from damaging India, British imperial rule gave it a head start.

At the centre of this was the Indian Civil Service, the 1,000 strong "heaven-born" group of administrators that ran the country. Their role in laying the foundations for strong, efficient government in India has never been accorded the respect and admiration it deserves.

While history has recorded that the ICS were aloof and disdainful of the "natives", in reality, the men who ran India were selfless, efficient and - most importantly of all - completely incorruptible.

Not only did they oversee the spread of good government, western education, modern medicine and the rule of law, they also put in place local works, famine relief, and irrigation projects, most notably in the Punjab, which benefited enormously from what was then the largest irrigation project in the world.

Perhaps the most priceless asset of all was the English language itself, which gave a unity to the subcontinent that it had never known before and which is allowing India's people to do business around the world today with great success.

Indeed, it is indicative of this that in February 2011, a Dalit (formerly untouchable) community in Uttar Pradesh built a shrine to the goddess English, which they believe will help them learn the English language and climb out of their grinding poverty.

Although Britain was not able to replicate its success in India everywhere across its vast colonial empire, it is still clear the empire gave its colonies real, tangible benefits. Wherever the British ruled, they erected a light, relatively inexpensive form of government that was not corrupt, was stable, and was favourable to outside investors.

Its imperial civil servants may not always have been completely sympathetic to local peoples, but they were always motivated by humanitarian impulses and did their best in often difficult circumstances. Indeed, when we look at Africa, many of the benefits of imperial rule were squandered in the generations after independence with a succession of corrupt and brutal regimes.

Dr Nick Lloyd is the author of the forthcoming book The Amritsar Massacre: The Untold Story of One Fateful Day
Andrew Thompson, professor of imperial and global history, University of Leeds

Does Britain's colonial legacy still poison its relations with Africa, the Middle East and Asia? Mr Cameron's remark raises important questions for society about how we relate to history.

There's the inheritance of colonial violence. What you saw in the later stages of empire was a series of British counter-insurgency operations, exported from one hot spot to another. In places such as Kenya, Palestine, Malaysia, Zimbabwe, and of course Northern Ireland, the British were forced to resort to repressive legal and military measures in what was to prove an ultimately vain attempt to curb the tide of political unrest and nationalist opposition.

Detention without trial, beatings, torture, and killings punctuated the twilight years of colonial rule. The disclosure this week of a large tranche of Foreign Office files, hitherto kept secret about full extent of British brutality against Mau Mau in Kenya, suggests there may be further revelations still to come. Will there be similar stories and claims from Palestine, Malaya, Cyprus or Nigeria?

There is also the question of whether the violence that characterised these counter-insurgency operations during decolonisation then set the scene for the way in which independent, post-colonial African and Asian governments dealt with political dissent from their own peoples.

The imperial past is far from being dead. On the contrary it is actually very much part of contemporary politics.

Perhaps we should not be surprised then when British foreign policy interests and interventions today are seen and perceived as "neo-colonial" in their nature.

The reaction of Iran in 2007 when 15 Royal Navy personnel were seized is instructive here. As heavy-handed as it may have seemed to people in Britain, it needs to be understood in the wider context of Iranian sensitivities over the presence of any western powers in or near its territorial waters - sensitivities arising in part from a very fraught and fragile 20th Century relationship over oil and territory.

In a deeper and more fundamental sense still, Britain's colonial legacy can be seen in the ways in which globalisation is being experienced today. From the 1870s onwards, the integration of labour, capital and commodity markets promoted by empire was very much skewed towards its "white" settler societies.

The economic benefits of empire for the so-called dependent colonies were much more meagre in comparison or did not exist at all. When we find critics of globalisation questioning whether economic integration and cultural diversity can comfortably co-exist, we should remember that for much of the last century the form of globalisation the world experienced rested on a view of social relations governed by racial hierarchies.

Finally, we might reverse the colonial encounter and think about how empire has left an imprint on British society. Despite its multi-ethnic empire, Britain did not embrace ethnic diversity at home.

There was the rhetoric of an inclusive imperial citizenship for the peoples of all Commonwealth countries. But in reality in post-war Britain there was little desire to promote integration for immigrants from the likes of the West Indies and the Indian subcontinent.

The consequences are perhaps reflected in experiences today, especially in terms of the so-called ethnic penalty many of these communities face in education, employment or housing

<<Barf end

Sorry for the above puke , but to inform the uninitiated onlee.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 08 Apr 2011 08:50

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 09 Apr 2011 02:15

Officer shot dead on board submarine HMS Astute

A Royal Navy officer has been killed after a rating turned a gun on him following a dispute between sailors on Britain’s most modern submarine.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2011 02:17

astute is really jinxed or what. almost makes you believe in jinxing.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Apr 2011 12:10

^^^ this is a well established pattern. First the immigrants displace locals, who either move to the affluent suburbs or out of town. then as each immigrant community starts to thrive, they move out to the wealthier suburbs. this pattern can be seen amongst east european jews and to some extent italians and cypriots in the UK who preceded indians in the UK by a few decades (as immigrants). it is natural now that prosperous indians are following the money trail to the suburbs as they become more established

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Apr 2011 08:59

Halal dead meat?

Nawwww,

Kayani would never allow it.

paki supreme court and other courts be damned.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/151 ... arraf.html

Britain may hand over Musharraf to Pakistan: Cameron
Islamabad, April 5, (IANS):

Britain will consider handing over former Pakistan president Pervez Musharraf to Pakistan in the Benazir Bhutto assassination case, said British Prime Minister David Cameron during his day-long visit to Pakistan on Tuesday.

Cameron said that Britain will look into handing over Musharraf if Pakistan asks formally, Samaa TV reported.

Musharraf ruled Pakistan for nine years after taking power in a bloodless coup in 1999. He stepped down in 2008 and left Pakistan. He now lives in London.

An anti-terrorism court in Pakistan's garrison city of Rawalpindi Feb 19 issued an arrest warrant in the Benazir Bhutto assassination case against Musharraf.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 17 Apr 2011 20:38

From twitter:

London Taliban imposing Sharia Law in UK on women & gays http://bit.ly/gfq1Ez

Okie, now even after discounting for the customary hyperbole and all that, this does represent an interesting development.

Lends credence to the long held view (incl here on BRF) that oirostan will be the test case where cosy democracy clashes with islamist doctrinal obduracy. From India's POV, it would be veery interesting indeed to see how smoothly or not oirostan (and in particular UKstan) handles this quagmire.

Whilst the brits played their cute games and split asunder the subcontinent along an irrevocable religious divide, would be fitting to see how they handle a (much smaller but no less potent, thanks to tech leverage in terrorists' hands) similarly irrevocable division within their homelands. Karma is a beach and all.

I know, I know, these things won't manifest tomorrow. But good to know they're coming. Valuable lessons for secular pluralistic democracies the world over to learn I guess.

To quote Bob Dylan "The wheel's still in spin....the Times they are a changin' "

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2011 22:03

the HMS Astute guard who was arrested is a RN sailor per the article. yet it also mentions "he has not served in afghanistan" as if Af has any RN presence.

would be most surprised if 6 more astute class are ever built. probably 3 more and then a joint H-n-D merger of UK-France assets in many classes will take over to "show the flag and stiff upper lip to the natives" but keep costs down.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 17 Apr 2011 23:06

Singha wrote:the HMS Astute guard who was arrested is a RN sailor per the article. yet it also mentions "he has not served in afghanistan" as if Af has any RN presence.

would be most surprised if 6 more astute class are ever built. probably 3 more and then a joint H-n-D merger of UK-France assets in many classes will take over to "show the flag and stiff upper lip to the natives" but keep costs down.

I think you are misinformed. RN personal are on regular Afghan rotation. I
am not speculating, I have first hand knowledge and regular interaction. I
do not care to discuss deployment purpose.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 17 Apr 2011 23:22

Hari Seldon wrote:From twitter:
London Taliban imposing Sharia Law in UK on women & gays http://bit.ly/gfq1Ez
Okie, now even after discounting for the customary hyperbole and all that, this does represent an interesting development.

Lends credence to the long held view (incl here on BRF) that oirostan will be the test case where cosy democracy clashes with islamist doctrinal obduracy. From India's POV, it would be veery interesting indeed to see how smoothly or not oirostan (and in particular UKstan) handles this quagmire.

Whilst the brits played their cute games and split asunder the subcontinent along an irrevocable religious divide, would be fitting to see how they handle a (much smaller but no less potent, thanks to tech leverage in terrorists' hands) similarly irrevocable division within their homelands. Karma is a beach and all.

I know, I know, these things won't manifest tomorrow. But good to know they're coming. Valuable lessons for secular pluralistic democracies the world over to learn I guess.

To quote Bob Dylan "The wheel's still in spin....the Times they are a changin' "

It is unfortunate that the Daily Mail is referred to as if were biblical. It is a
newspaper that has cut its teeth by bad mouthing every single immigrant
population whilst in print. First it was the Jews, then the Irish, then the
West Indians, then Indians and when they went out of vogue they started
with the Muslims.

This is also the paper that saw dear Adolf in good light! Please read this
paper with scepticism and contempt! Please keep in mind if you intend to
quote this paper.

If all they say is true would any one care to explain this piece of news also
set in London. What no Muslim protesters here! Or who knows the pub is
run by a Muslim!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13103647

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 17 Apr 2011 23:43

Ajatshatru wrote:'How Indian migrants move to affluent suburbs in Britain'

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nri ... 933861.cms

Poorly researched article. The only Indians still in these suburbs are those
who are referred to as 'Faujis recent arrivals who are mainly manual
labourers or those you have sadly not managed to do very well. Has
anyone actually been to Neasden. Its a dump and nobody - white folk
included- quite understands why the temple was actually build in such a
deprived area next to a motorway.

Virtually all of the second generation with family money left for leafier
suburbs many, many years ago and have to all purposes and intent
created new Indian communities in much richer neighbourhoods that the
author of this article is completely unaware of.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Apr 2011 00:51

Lisa wrote:
Singha wrote:the HMS Astute guard who was arrested is a RN sailor per the article. yet it also mentions "he has not served in afghanistan" as if Af has any RN presence.

would be most surprised if 6 more astute class are ever built. probably 3 more and then a joint H-n-D merger of UK-France assets in many classes will take over to "show the flag and stiff upper lip to the natives" but keep costs down.

I think you are misinformed. RN personal are on regular Afghan rotation. I
am not speculating, I have first hand knowledge and regular interaction. I
do not care to discuss deployment purpose.

But they are usually on specialist duty, isn't it? AFG effort is a tri-service deployment. But RM and RN deployment is still not the majority, so it is unreasonable to expect every RN/RM personnel to have a 6 month AFG tour.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Apr 2011 00:57

Lisa wrote:
It is unfortunate that the Daily Mail is referred to as if were biblical. It is a
newspaper that has cut its teeth by bad mouthing every single immigrant
population whilst in print. First it was the Jews, then the Irish, then the
West Indians, then Indians and when they went out of vogue they started
with the Muslims.

This is also the paper that saw dear Adolf in good light! Please read this
paper with scepticism and contempt! Please keep in mind if you intend to
quote this paper.

If all they say is true would any one care to explain this piece of news also
set in London. What no Muslim protesters here! Or who knows the pub is
run by a Muslim!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13103647

True. Overt "gay" gestures would draw hostility from most social groups in UK. However, note the reaction - the BBC news report also indicates that 700 odd humans lined up for a kiss-in demo. This shows that such homo-phobia is contested within that community, and that people have no fear to come out in support. However, we have no such contesting voices from the Muslim community in UK.

In fact the only openly "gay" Islamic "preacher" I have heard of comes from South Africa.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 18 Apr 2011 01:38

brihaspati wrote:
Lisa wrote:
It is unfortunate that the Daily Mail is referred to as if were biblical. It is a
newspaper that has cut its teeth by bad mouthing every single immigrant
population whilst in print. First it was the Jews, then the Irish, then the
West Indians, then Indians and when they went out of vogue they started
with the Muslims.

This is also the paper that saw dear Adolf in good light! Please read this
paper with scepticism and contempt! Please keep in mind if you intend to
quote this paper.

If all they say is true would any one care to explain this piece of news also
set in London. What no Muslim protesters here! Or who knows the pub is
run by a Muslim!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13103647
True. Overt "gay" gestures would draw hostility from most social groups in UK. However, note the reaction - the BBC news report also indicates that 700 odd humans lined up for a kiss-in demo. This shows that such homo-phobia is contested within that community, and that people have no fear to come out in support. However, we have no such contesting voices from the Muslim community in UK.

In fact the only openly "gay" Islamic "preacher" I have heard of comes from South Africa.

With the greatest of respect, firstly, one needs to understand that the Daily
Mail is a rag and unworthy of quotation.

Secondly, the point I was making that their comments with regards to the
Muslim community must be viewed with the deepest scepticism. I have no
time for fanatics and would never care to stand in their defence but to
claim that Sharia law is about to be imposed in London is nonsensical at
best.

Do you live in London? What would you do if someone told you to cover
your head."Go to hell and be off before I call the law" come to mind. When
the police did arrive do you really think that these fanatics would still be
hanging about? If this weren’t the case Soho would have been shut down
years ago and London devoid of gay bars and pubs. If you live in London
you would well know that these businesses are not a cottage industry.

Associated with the comment above, "most social groups" do not treat
gays with hostility in the UK. Again if this were the case do you care to
explain how openly gay MP's get elected if "most groups" are hostile to
them?

With regard to "contesting voices from the Muslim community in UK" and
"openly "gay" Islamic "preacher" may I ask you how many Hindus would
contest such a matter. I would not but that does not make me
Homophobic, its just a preference.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Apr 2011 02:17

Lisa wrote:
With the greatest of respect, firstly, one needs to understand that the Daily
Mail is a rag and unworthy of quotation.

Secondly, the point I was making that their comments with regards to the
Muslim community must be viewed with the deepest scepticism. I have no
time for fanatics and would never care to stand in their defence but to
claim that Sharia law is about to be imposed in London is nonsensical at
best.

Do you live in London? What would you do if someone told you to cover
your head."Go to hell and be off before I call the law" come to mind. When
the police did arrive do you really think that these fanatics would still be
hanging about? If this weren’t the case Soho would have been shut down
years ago and London devoid of gay bars and pubs. If you live in London
you would well know that these businesses are not a cottage industry.

Associated with the comment above, "most social groups" do not treat
gays with hostility in the UK. Again if this were the case do you care to
explain how openly gay MP's get elected if "most groups" are hostile to
them?

With regard to "contesting voices from the Muslim community in UK" and
"openly "gay" Islamic "preacher" may I ask you how many Hindus would
contest such a matter. I would not but that does not make me
Homophobic, its just a preference.

With the greatest of respect, I only mentioned "overtly gay gestures" and not "gays" in general. Perhaps my oversight was not to add "in public". You need not show hostility towards "gays" but you still might resent "gays" kissing in public. Should we get into a suburb/area by area discussion on London as to where two gay men kissing or fondling each other in public at certain times of a 24 hour day, are not likely to come out with some form of injury?

London has much more than just gay clubs/bars, sure. There are many establishments that cater to a wide variety of sexual preferences. However, does mere presence of such institutions prove social support or "indifference"?

There is no point going into specific community based "attitudes" towards gays and how activist a position each community takes with regards to such attitudes. Because it will then go into sociological findings or research or surveys and will become ultimately a discussion on "religion" - so cannot be continued here. The Mail is one end of a spectrum of public representation of social realities just as Guardian is on the other end. The truth probably lies somewhere in between, but is it not a better idea not to reject outright what a voice/media/channel is saying just because it is coming from such a source? We can disagree, and do our own search, or verify, but disparaging the source and not look at the content is a kind of censorship that is not beneficial.

The sharia debate is a long one and there is no denying that influential clerics are at it, with some voices from the British legal establishment lending support [or making statements that have been interpreted as lending support]. That is another issue to be explored, but cannot simply be wished away or censored.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 18 Apr 2011 02:24

Please post the Economist's reaction to the revelation of the nature of the British civilising mission to Kenya. That is, it included castrations of suspected Mau Mau members and plain ordinary Kikuyu. I wonder if the defence lawyer sent by Nehru brought this to the notice of the Kangaroo courts set up by the colonial administration (Love that euphemism).

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Apr 2011 02:39

Hari Seldon ji,

the following extract may provide some insight into the nature of support behind non-Muslim accommodation of Islamic "religious/educational" demands :

The Roots of Public Attitudes toward State Accommodation of European Muslims' Religious Practices before and after September 11 : J.S. Fetzer, and J.C. Soper. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, (42)(2), 2003, pp 247-258.

the data in this article do not support the second half of the solidarity-of-the-religious theory; secularists tend disproportionately to support state accommodation of Muslim religious practices. Our findings parallel those by Allport (1979:449-53) on the curvilinear relationship between religiosity and racial or religious prejudice. In a predominantly post-Christian Western Europe, secularists may not feel threatened by a few orthodox religionists. Despite the apparent philosophical similarities between practicing Muslims and Christians, Muslims might be better served to join political forces with the large number of secularists than with the small band of orthodox Christians.

The events of September11, 2001, have affected popular attitudes toward European Muslims. In all three countries in our before-and-after surveys, respondents were less likely after September 11 to support the accommodation of Islam in state-run schools. In France, however, this decline in support did not achieve statistical significance. Nonetheless, even in Britain and Germany, interviewees did not become markedly anti-Islamic, only changing their propensity to oppose accommodation by a few percentage points. Moreover, respondents in Britain and Germany seem far more tolerant toward Islam than reports in the popular press might suggest. Even with the knowledge that some of the September11 terrorists lived in Germany and Britain, German respondents remain overwhelmingly supportive of Islamic instruction in state schools, while most British interviewees continue to endorse state funding of Islamic schools. At least in Germany and Britain, politicians might thus consider policies that recognize the genuine religious pluralism in the region without having to worry about widespread public hostility to such programs. Finally, our data do not seem to confirm a micro version of our church-state theory. At a popular level, the church-state structures that are so important for shaping elite attitudes and public policy in these three countries do not appear to determine individuals' views on state accommodation of Muslim religious practices. Perhaps as Converse (1964) might suggest, the Islam-related attitudes of European elites-who are more likely to strive for ideological consistency-are much more constrained by their country's particular church-state arrangement than are the views of ordinary citizens.

Thus in UK for example, we should expect a positive correlation of "accommodating Islamic demands" with "secular" attitudes, and with distance from the church-state dynamic. Therefore typically such attitude will be reflected in a perception of little or no threat from the Islamist demands combined with "tolerance" for such demands. There is also a hypothesis that it is a case of subconscious search for a "strong" centre once the older affiliation has been weakened or removed. On this basis we can predict that "secularized" Christians/Jews/Hindus are more likely to tacitly support or sympathize with hardcore Islamic demands.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 18 Apr 2011 02:46

brihaspati wrote: With the greatest of respect, I only mentioned "overtly gay gestures" and not "gays" in general. Perhaps my oversight was not to add "in public". You need not show hostility towards "gays" but you still might resent "gays" kissing in public. Should we get into a suburb/area by area discussion on London as to where two gay men kissing or fondling each other in public at certain times of a 24 hour day, are not likely to come out with some form of injury?

London has much more than just gay clubs/bars, sure. There are many establishments that cater to a wide variety of sexual preferences. However, does mere presence of such institutions prove social support or "indifference"?

There is no point going into specific community based "attitudes" towards gays and how activist a position each community takes with regards to such attitudes. Because it will then go into sociological findings or research or surveys and will become ultimately a discussion on "religion" - so cannot be continued here. The Mail is one end of a spectrum of public representation of social realities just as Guardian is on the other end. The truth probably lies somewhere in between, but is it not a better idea not to reject outright what a voice/media/channel is saying just because it is coming from such a source? We can disagree, and do our own search, or verify, but disparaging the source and not look at the content is a kind of censorship that is not beneficial.

The sharia debate is a long one and there is no denying that influential clerics are at it, with some voices from the British legal establishment lending support [or making statements that have been interpreted as lending support]. That is another issue to be explored, but cannot simply be wished away or censored.

Last post

"London has much more than just gay clubs/bars, sure. There are many
establishments that cater to a wide variety of sexual preferences. However,
does mere presence of such institutions prove social support or
"indifference"? "

Yes it does and not of recent but with significant history. Legislation to
guarantee these freedoms was passed some 40 years ago by a majority in
parliament. Not a single subsequent parliament irrespective of party has
ever attempted to repeal or change any such legislation. If anything such
legislation has been reinforced. Surely if there was "no social support" the
stated fact would not stand.

"Should we get into a suburb/area by area discussion on London as to
where two gay men kissing or fondling each other in public at certain times
of a 24 hour day, are not likely to come out with some form of injury?"

Do not agree as this really means nothing. The last homophobic attack
that ended in a murder that I followed in the press occurred in Trafalgar
Square. What is that 10-15 min's walking distance from Soho's borders. If
someone is going to be homophobic it is because they are,not because a
particular area is. Again why are openly gay MP's elected, why are single
mother MP's elected, why are divorced MP's elected, because most
people do not care. They vote for a party. The fact that an individual is gay
does not really matter to them and if "most" people had an issue with this,
again, these facts would not stand.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Apr 2011 04:21

America's Design for Tolerance Author(s): Christopher Clausen Source: The Wilson Quarterly (1976-), Vol. 31, No. 1 (Winter, 2007), pp. 26-32

Negative popular attitudes toward Islam are often dismissed as racism, but confronting militant beliefs is quite different from expressing racial prejudice. Instead of the future of the planet, post-Christian western Europe may represent an exception as extreme in its own way as theocratic Iran or Saudi Arabia. As a British Muslim told a columnist for The Guardian in the wake of the July 7,2005, London terrorist bombings, the fact that you no longer believe in your religion is no reason we shouldn't believe in ours.

One reason Muslim immigrants may have an easier time integrating into American society is that piety of almost any sort is so much more common and accepted here than in Europe. The complete secularization many intellectuals have been yearning for since the Enlightenment, now nearly achieved in Europe, turns out to bring its own set of unexpected problems. Although George Washington would no doubt be disappointed, an American future of emotional, never-quite-settled conflicts over the place of faith in public life looks like an acceptable price to pay for avoiding the far greater evils that afflict both the devout and godless regions of the earth.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Apr 2011 04:38

A 2006 opinion poll found that 40 percent of British Muslims believed that sharia law should be introduced in those areas where they were in a majority. Patrick Hennessy and Melissa Kite, "Poll reveals 40% of Muslims want sharia law in UK," The Sunday Telegraph (London), February 19, 2006. Of course I am not sure about how the Sunday Telegraph is seen in terms of authenticity - as on BR.

Exclusion for Democracy: Adam James Tebble, Political Theory, Vol. 34, No. 4 (Aug., 2006), pp. 463-487, Sage.

Of course, for identity liberals values of inclusion and democracy can be satisfied only if the populace identifies with them. Making good on these values, therefore, cannot just be a matter of internal policy, for this takes for granted the sustainability of the democratic and inclusive nature of society itself. This is especially the case when rates of immigration are high from countries where neither democracy nor inclusion are particularly valued (or, indeed, are actively disvalued) and where some members of some communities clearly do not "accept current political structures" nor desire to "engage in dialogue with the host community so that a new common identity can be forged."49

Such reluctance was exemplified in the UK during the 2005 general election campaign when religious fundamentalists took over the election press conference of a national body representing the Muslim community, claiming that voting was sinful. A day later a pro-Iraq War Labour Party candidate was forced to abandon canvassing in her constituency after she was verbally abused by a gang of Muslim males and had her car pelted with eggs and its tires slashed. On the same day in the same constituency, even the press conference of the anti-war Respect Party candidate was invaded by a mob that attacked attendees and threatened the candidate with death, claiming that voting was un-Islamic.50 Another example of such hostility occurred in London when a mayoral election meeting organized by Operation Black Vote-an organization that works to encourage ethnic minority participation in the democratic process-was abandoned after fundamentalist protestors objecting to the presence of a leading gay rights advocate invaded the hall.51

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 23 Apr 2011 13:51

A feel good story for all those who love A. Roy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -home.html

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Apr 2011 14:01

^^ Communal, hindu-loving minority hating BJP govt rules in MP and so cant expect the MP courts to be uncorrupted from Hindutva poison onlee.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Apr 2011 18:34

^^^A.Roy and Pradip Kishen, should fight it out to the Supreme Court. Surely, they will get justice there. We may even see pathbreaking new interpretation on "ignorance is not an excuse". For example, it is the duty of the law-makers to educate the "people" about all "laws". Of course has to be qualified with conditionalities - for example judges are to be excluded from such duties. Or that if someone kills a judge in retaliation for some perceived miscarriage of justice - and he/she has never seen the IPC - then that logic of "ignorance" will not apply, of course.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 25 Apr 2011 00:17

Is this just a case of media sensationalising the issue? Has someone seen the Lancet article?

UK blames India for rise in TB cases

Health experts from Hyderabad have taken strong exception to the charge that Indians harbouring tuberculosis germ in its latent form are responsible for the spread of TB in the United Kingdom.

The UK is regarded as the TB capital of the world, and a team of UK-based researchers is blaming the Indians for it.

The present Lancet study is on tuberculosis allegedly being spread by Indians visiting the UK.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 25 Apr 2011 13:28

vera_k wrote:Is this just a case of media sensationalising the issue? Has someone seen the Lancet article?

UK blames India for rise in TB cases

Health experts from Hyderabad have taken strong exception to the charge that Indians harbouring tuberculosis germ in its latent form are responsible for the spread of TB in the United Kingdom.

The UK is regarded as the TB capital of the world, and a team of UK-based researchers is blaming the Indians for it.

The present Lancet study is on tuberculosis allegedly being spread by Indians visiting the UK.

Would those who understand please comment

Manish Pareek MRCP a, John P Watson FRCP c, Prof L Peter Ormerod DSc d, Onn Min Kon FRCP e, Gerrit Woltmann FRCP f, Peter J White PhD g, Ibrahim Abubakar PhD h, Prof Ajit Lalvani DM b

Summary

Background
Continuing rises in tuberculosis notifications in the UK are attributable to cases in foreign-born immigrants. National guidance for immigrant screening is hampered by a lack of data about the prevalence of, and risk factors for, latent tuberculosis infection in immigrants. We aimed to determine the prevalence of latent infection in immigrants to the UK to define which groups should be screened and to quantify cost-effectiveness.

Methods
In our multicentre cohort study and cost-effectiveness analysis we analysed demographic and test results from three centres in the UK (from 2008 to 2010) that used interferon-γ release-assay (IGRA) to screen immigrants aged 35 years or younger for latent tuberculosis infection. We assessed factors associated with latent infection by use of logistic regression and calculated the yields and cost-effectiveness of screening at different levels of tuberculosis incidence in immigrants' countries of origin with a decision analysis model.

Findings
Results for IGRA-based screening were positive in 245 of 1229 immigrants (20%), negative in 982 (80%), and indeterminate in two (0·2%). Positive results were independently associated with increases in tuberculosis incidence in immigrants' countries of origin (p=0·0006), male sex (p=0·046), and age (p<0·0001). National policy thus far would fail to detect 71% of individuals with latent infection. The two most cost-effective strategies were to screen individuals from countries with a tuberculosis incidence of more than 250 cases per 100 000 (incremental cost-effectiveness ratio [ICER] was £17 956 [£1=US$1·60] per prevented case of tuberculosis) and at more than 150 cases per 100 000 (including immigrants from the Indian subcontinent), which identified 92% of infected immigrants and prevented an additional 29 cases at an ICER of £20 819 per additional case averted.

Interpretation
Screening for latent infection can be implemented cost-effectively at a level of incidence that identifies most immigrants with latent tuberculosis, thereby preventing substantial numbers of future cases of active tuberculosis.

Funding
Medical Research Council and Wellcome Trust.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 25 Apr 2011 15:46

All systemic ills of india are due to Raj - british raj. British Raj TB-ed the Bhartiyata

All health ills of UKstan are due to India - e.g., TB, superbugs etc. Recently i learnt from a discussion on Times Now that Glasgow and Cardiff are infected by various kinds of bugs and people flee england and come to india for treatment.

Now, one can proudly say London is a TB capital of Europe (google...). Glasgow and Cardiff two great centres of infectious diseases in UKstan.

One gora joker was constantly advising Arnab Goswami that India should take care of their health system. Dr. Trehan and Devi Setty - the SDRE doctors asked gora doctor joker scientist to first see own behind and then preach to others.

Such glorious moments are scarce when a gora is publicly shown his place. The gora was Mark Toleman - co-author of lancet studies on superbugs. Looks goras are not just losing revenue to former colonial, dirty, TB-ed servants and clerks but also a 'hard earned' Echendee - the fast diminishing gora thing.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 25 Apr 2011 15:57

Also I am glad that the efficient Brutish machinery could find out so fast who actually helped them attain a TB Capital of Europe title. Are not you grateful that we have helped you achieve such a feat while India unfortunately successfully tried to eradicate TB at many places from the land of snake charmers and magicians.

UKstan may also now buy services and tools from former colony to eradical colonial disease earning them such a great title of TB Capital. Since UKstanis could not detect, prevent or control TB spreading with highly 'sophisticated' med-tech available with them, this is a sincere piece of advice.

Also it speaks a lot about immune system of UKstani gori praja compared to other europeans who have not gained this kind of graceful title (..and many indians live there but had not spread TB in thos european countries)

Am just worried about our healthy people stayin and visiting UKstan and TB capital of Europe.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 25 Apr 2011 16:17

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/ ... 8B20110421

UKstaning Screening Machines are Not Capable of Detecting Indian kind of TB
UK immigrant screening misses most latent TB

(Reuters) - British tuberculosis screening for new immigrants fails to detect most imported cases of latent disease and screening should be widened to include more people from the Indian subcontinent, scientists said on Thursday.

Britain has recently been dubbed "the tuberculosis (TB) capital of Europe" and is the only country in Western Europe with rising rates of disease.

Current British border policies require immigrants from countries with a TB incidence higher than 40 per 100,000 people to have a chest X-ray on arrival to check for active TB.

This generally covers African countries but excludes places in Asia such as India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

TB is caused by a bacterial infection which is normally asymptomatic, but about one in 10 cases lead to active disease which attacks the lungs and kills around half of those affected.

While very few immigrants have active TB on arrival, many of them are carriers of the latent disease, which often progresses to active TB within a few years of their arrival in Britain.

To see whether the screening was effective, British researchers analyzed demographic and test result data from 2008 to 2010 at three immigrant screening centers in Britain using a highly specific blood test for detecting latent tuberculosis, called an interferon-gamma release assay (IGRA).

Their results, published in The Lancet Infectious Diseases journal, showed 20 percent of recent immigrants from the Indian sub-continent and almost 30 percent from sub-Saharan Africa are carriers of latent TB.

This means the current screening policy, which excludes immigrants from the Indian subcontinent, has been missing 70 percent of imported latent TB, they said.

TB is a worldwide pandemic. Among the 15 countries with the highest estimated TB incidence rates, 13 are in Africa, while a third of all new cases are in India and China, according to the World Health Organization (WHO).

The WHO also says drug-resistant TB is rapidly increasing around the world and these often fatal strains of the disease are expected to affect two million people by 2050.

"FORGOTTEN DISEASE"

Britain has more than 9,000 cases of TB diagnosed a year and the problem is becoming particularly acute in the capital, which experts say accounts for 40 percent of the nation's total diagnosed cases.

Andrew George, chair of a parliamentary group on global TB, said the findings were worrying and required urgent action.

"Tuberculosis has become a 'forgotten disease' in recent decades," he said in a statement. "We need a new and a more concerted approach to detecting, preventing and treating TB among those coming to live and work in the UK."

In the study, the researchers also assessed how cost-effective it would be to lower the threshold so people from more countries are screened. They found including immigrants from the Indian subcontinent would detect over 90 percent of latent TB cases, and would cost little more than now.

"By changing the threshold for screening, and including immigrants from the Indian subcontinent, we could pick up 92 percent of imported latent TB," said Ajit Lalvan from Imperial College London, who led the study. "By treating people at that early stage, we can prevent them from developing a serious illness and becoming infectious."

The national incidence of TB has risen dramatically over the last decade, increasing by almost 50 percent between 1998 and 2009. Much of this increase has been driven by a 98 percent increase in cases among immigrants.

Foreign-born people account for nearly three quarters of the country's TB cases, and have a 20 times higher incidence of TB than people born in Britain.

(Editing by Sophie Hares)

How indian kind of lack-a-daisical-ness in screening people coming from this subcontinet !! Now take chest x-ray of people coming from indian sub-continent, the machineries, services and films will be provided by indian companies at competitive rates.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Apr 2011 16:47

^^^

The UQstanis are now conducting a TB tests the way they were conducting virginity tests for Indian wimmens in the past. Should this be taken as racial profiling or nat, the maulanas pliss to tell.