A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

JCage
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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby JCage » 21 Nov 2002 19:32

A request to everyone on this thread.
Lets concentrate on the message more than the messenger,including whatever complaints we may have against StarTV or Barkha Dutt,even the chap(who is it anyway,artillery or Frontline chap?)who wrote that fallacious article.

This way,imho,our point will be better served.The moment we start saying that the messenger is screwed,we're wasting our time in trying to make anyone see the light.

Thanks,
Nitin

JCage
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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby JCage » 21 Nov 2002 19:43

Jagan sahab,
Time permitting hope we can work out two projects.One on flying hours we discussed and perhaps this new attrition one?If they meet the std,perhaps they can remain as BR 'marked. :)

Peeyoosh,

Please go through the entire thread to understand what we are getting at.
Unacceptable attrtion in the MiG21 Squadrons.Defintely.Not unacceptable attrition in the entire fighter stream.That generalization would mean the Mir fleet,the 29 fleet,the Jag fleet,..
Considering the nature of the tasks demanded,in some cases,the attrition is ineviatble attrition.
Hell,ask as to why 21's are still flown on strike.

The average pilot,flies more than 3000 hrs in his career from what i know.Some reach to 5000 plus.
Attrition because of a variety of reasons,few of which are addressed in the media,or the IAF asked.

Why doesnt the concerned media community start a clear the land enroachers drive wrt approach routes to IAF bases.Or close the illegal abattoirs causing bird strikes?
Or go after the GOI hammer and tongs on the AJT issue?

These three would help the IAF far,far more than misleading titles and castigating the IAF each time there is a crash.

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Umrao » 21 Nov 2002 20:18

Originally posted by shiv:
Excuse me for splitting hairs - but I have a point to make:

Embarrassment means that you feel shame because someone is watching you. Would anyone use the word "sharam" or "Lajja" with respect to air crashes?. There is a "Log kya kahenge" factor in the act of embarrassment.

It is absolutely stupid and wrong to be "embarrassed" about an air crashes or attrition rate - because embarrassment necessarily means that you would not be bothered if nobody else knew.

We are not embarrassed. We are CONCERNED.

Sorry to digress.
First if there is any "embarrassment" it is with the fact that we take so much time to acknowledge that someting is not right and we should be concerned.

Second crashes are bound to happen for combat a/c. Recall the F-14 series of crashes for US Navy, F101 in 1960/70s etc. The question is are we doing something about it if not yes then it is 'embarrassment'

Thirdly having found the source or cause of the problem and not acting and communicating with a time bound plan to solve the issue at hand is a source of 'embarassment'.

Fourthly explaining away in political jargon the problem on hand, while patriotic individuals , with dedication and commitment to the cause of the nation join forces only to make supreme sacrifice just by training in peace time is 'embrassment'.

<B>We need some action from the babus and netas, do their small part to the dedicated finest few, who ask a simple favor

<U>'Give us the tools we will finish the job' </U></B>

( I quote Churchill)

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Harry » 21 Nov 2002 20:26

The average pilot,flies more than 3000 hrs in his career from what i know.Some reach to 5000 plus.
Nitin,an average wing commander in the IAF would have accumulated 4000-5000 hrs. :)

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Sunil » 22 Nov 2002 02:20

I request other members to restrict the discussion to the matter at hand.

Nitin,

I think your posts in response to Vishnu's comments have the most amount of factual content. I feel it is best if this approach is adhered to. This will vastly add to the educational content of this thread.

Vishnu,

The term "jingo" is used to describe anyone who posts on BR. So to someones eyes, you too are a jingo by virtue of this fact. :)

But seriously, as one "jingo" to another, could you please be more specific as to where you feel that the "jingoism" ob BRF is lacking perspective in this particular matter. There are other places where this could happen, but as far as crashes in the IAF are concerned; the personal loss of the pilots is felt deeply here, but at the same time using the death of a pilot to suggest a generalized failure in the IAF's methods is not seen as postive.

So where do you feel this is going "wrong"?

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Roop » 22 Nov 2002 03:52

Edited by Admin

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby ASPuar » 22 Nov 2002 04:18

*Sigh* IS the above 'fact' substantiated by anyone anywhere? Is there any corroboration from official sources, or the news media, or is there even any suggestion of how this gentleman feroze knows this to be true? Is it even relevant?

Nitin had some very good advice when he suggested that one docus more on content than who has written it. It gives ones complaints very little credibility when one starts attcking the source rather than the material.

PS NITIN: I didnt suggest we ignore his report (or for that matter the 65 air war)... just stop whining about him, and behaving in a rabid manner about his personal character... Im sure you realise that it is far more useful to trash sawhneys reporting (Because it IS in fact bunk) than trash the man himself (Then, any reader will assume our views on his report are biased because we dont like him). Jagan suggested this too I believe, and so did you... just wanted to clarify what I had meant.

Regards,
Aditya Puar

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Peeyoosh » 22 Nov 2002 05:14

Sure Nitin accepting that Mig 21 attrition is unacceptable is a start - no point defending that with average statitics either.

On issues - HAL has a huge culpability - the work ethos in that organization is pathetic, espceially in the elder lines. The better people prefer to go to the new aircraft so the really bad are left to deal with the problem children - the Mig 21s. HAL is improving but it has a huge distance to go before it stops contributing to accidents.

The IAF is as much to blame too - its easy to try and pin the blame onto factors outside IAF control, but what about the technician college that has been identified as cirtical - which IAF chief is willing to forego a single Mirage 2000 (the cost of the college) to set it up?

On the AJT selection - if it is so problematic - why not a temporary solution to get flight simulators built for the 21s to be used in the training stage? (Not at TDACE) We are in the "process" of doing that!

HAL fits spares but it is IAF personnel who inspect and pass all aircraft before induction. What stops the IAF from putting their foot down? Hard.

Sorry - in this mess its not just politicians and press, but HAL and the IAF that are as much to blame.

Peeyoosh

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Aditya G » 22 Nov 2002 09:26

I have nothing new to say so I'll simply quote you guys and pass comments...wokay?

It may be remembered that between 1991 and 1996, there was a drastic reduction in flying hours because the collapse of the Soviet Union had resulted in an acute shortage of spares and product support for aircraft of Soviet origin. The MiG-29 pilots are required to routinely fly 250 hours a year and the Mirage pilots average over 200 hours. The IAF, however, has clarified in its annual report of 2001-2002 that accident statistics have actually come down.
anyway guesses on ehy the MiG hrs are higher?

Furthermore, unlike in India, military service in Pakistan is a prestigious career, where young men from well-to-do families join.
this is one place the media ought to concentrate instead of wasting column space on what it has been doing uptill now.

Understandably, the housing facilities at forward air bases in Pakistan are better than those in India.
huh?

The remaining eight squadrons are all concerned with operational and conversion training, but that commitment varies according to the demand for pilots. Almost all of them have operational roles to fulfil. Five of these squadrons are commonly referred to as Operational Conversion Units (OCUs), and a good proportion of their effort is directed towards providing a steady stream of qualified aircrew. Each of the five major types of aircraft in the PAF inventory is supported by an OCU squadron.
I dont get his pont (huh? No 2)

PAF pilots working in the Royal Saudi Air Force flew F-15 aircraft combat missions during the 1991 Operation Desert Storm against Iraq, and are thus familiar with high-tech warfare.

The PAF, therefore, has more high-tech orientation than its IAF counterparts.
and it strikes again! :D Even if they have lots of F-16 boys, they have limitations on the hrs each ac can do and hence even if the no. of pilots is more, individual pilots end up doing lesser hours (ref: Sq Ld Sameen Mazhar)

<hr>

Umrao: All journalists who write about IAF and or defence related matters are just dorks. Pure and simple.
Samir: may your tribe be eliminated
Why dont you make this your signature? I can make it if nobody minds.. :D :eek: wOw...more details?

<hr>

Mohan R: What is he, a journalist or a stenographer? Has he ever thought to ask his sources some critical questions, or does he see his role as merely regurgitating what his sources tell him?
golden words....good work

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Roop » 22 Nov 2002 10:00

aditya.g:

Many on BR are assuming that Sawhney has these impeccable sources that feed him all this inside info, but I don't automatically assume he has these 'reliable sources'. Who knows, based on what Feroze said, maybe the guys 'sources' are the voices in his head.

Originally posted by ASPuar:

is there even any suggestion of how this gentleman feroze knows this to be true? Is it even relevant?
Of course it's relevant! It gives a very credible motive for Sawhney's idiotic writings. The guy's defenders may say, "Why would he make this stuff up if it wasn't true? What's his motive?" Well, there's your answer right there: his motive is his burning resentment at being booted out of the army for being a drunk.

Nitin had some very good advice when he suggested that one docus more on content than who has written it. It gives ones complaints very little credibility when one starts attcking the source rather than the material.
As to content, I have already covered that extensively. As I recall, you were unhappy about my attacking the content when I did so.

As to source, if it deserves an attack, it will be attacked, when the attack is deemed relevant to the content.

As to credibility, feel free to form your own judgements. Others will do likewise, for themselves.

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby JCage » 22 Nov 2002 10:30

Sunil, thanks.

Aditya,

Guys a new Super a/c like the MKI will have its share of bigwigs for the intital phase.But thereafter ,the IAF wont send only its finest to the MKI and drain others squadrons.The other squadrons all have their combination of experience and rookies.In fact the 21's already have a high proportion,because of the demanding nature of that a/c.Skill levels were upset,ie proportionalised more in some types than others,during our "induction phase" wherein in the early to mid 80's we inducted a plethora of types-the 23's,27's,jags'm2k's and 29's.
Not now.

Peeyoosh,
The IAF is making many strides towards sims.The media just doesnt ask the right questions!
There is no interest apart from the "wail factor".

The MiG21's have had sims from quite some time.They arent full 3- axis ones,but the IAF has already asked:

a)CII to look into it.
b)Any avionics/sim spec firm that is ready to take up the contract.

In the meantime,more "partial sims" are in the pipeline.

There are quite a few maintenance dedicated sims a/c the IAF now,most built on COTS eqpt.

The IAF already has a bunch of "other" full sims..M2K,Jag and an AIr Combat one,generic in nature(domed).

The MKI is getting its own sets of sims along with it.

Re HAL:
This is a response of a pilot whom i asked,about a yr back,about HAL:

"In the MiG21 case,there have been cases,yes,but the overall trend is not so suspect and is improving".."The other types havent faced the kind of situations we see in the MiG21,not the Jag(I had asked about the Jag,as there had been a crash)nor the other HAL supplied Sq." "HAL has a long way to go,but in this case,the blame game is worthless"."Spares quality isnt bad as you infer" (I had asked in particular about repeated media reports)

I belive the IAF has finally submitted some initial studies on the tech college,waiting for more data to confirm.

And again,its not just spares or this or that.But the sheer nature of using an a/c and stressing it to its limits day in and out.The Soviets,hadnt quoted life considerations for some parts.WHy?Becuase they didnt contemplate the a/c would be tasked this intensively.HAL/IAF had to wrangle the design data from them.
There are still many small design creeps/faults in some a/c.The Russians are yet to hand over any design data.
So whose fault is it when a/c crashes?Can we again assign generic blame without going after each case and analysis?

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Peeyoosh » 22 Nov 2002 12:12

Nitin

No contest that the attrition of Migs will be above the newer, smarter and 2 engined airframes - that is a no brainer - but 3/10,000 is the hassle .

HAL is improving - but the change is slow and can be faster - and yes, a decade ago the folks in the IAF at the highest level were fighter jocks who did not appreciate the need for support staff and training the support staff. Thankfully that attitude is changing ( believe) but we need to see action on training.

All the same computerization of inventory, manuals, sharing fault analysis via the net, incident reporting can be much improved.

Some issues though will never go away - old airframes, operating close to urban environments, HAL not having access to design documents and philosophy will bug us.

Peeyoosh

Finally - the Mig 21 Sims - they suck :) and big time - ask any of those who have used them, sims for the other a/c are realistic

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby JCage » 22 Nov 2002 15:18

All the same computerization of inventory, manuals, sharing fault analysis via the net, incident reporting can be much improved.

Peeyoosh,
The entire IAF logistics line is being computerized by Bae -Hal.The process began sometime back,iirc.

They're also planning to extend this to the smart card funda wherein a pilots medical details etc,will be available on the card.

Some issues though will never go away - old airframes, operating close to urban environments, HAL not having access to design documents and philosophy will bug us.

Exactly.

SO does the press understand any of this?Have they even bothered to mention this?

Take todays report in the Times of India for example.

IAF used "Nats".For Gods sake,couldnt they even bother to use the internet to spell "Gnat".

After the IAF yells for donkeys years about the AJT,the media buddhijeevis say(re:same article) in the headline "IAF ADMITS TRAINING IS BAD...".

Hello,do we have to bear this rigmarole?
"Embarrassed", "IAF admits"...

Nice table,landing speeds etc..and then a generalized moronic title on the top.

Begad.One would think the ACM personally blushed while narrating the accident details in the first case,or the brave,gutsy,intrepid journo got the earth shattering "admission" from the IAF??After even the most uninformed chap knows that something like an AJT exists.

As long as "journalists" stick to narrating/broadcasting their "personal views"(as we were earlier informed ) and leave facts and data to the Hands of the Almighty.... :roll:

Finally - the Mig 21 Sims - they suck and big time - ask any of those who have used them, sims for the other a/c are realistic

Exactly.Hence,CII and any pvt /GoI company interested in Sims can take part in building anew IAF specific one.

If you're wondering why this wasnt done yesterday,the reason is equally simple.Cost.
The proposal has been lying in the MOD for donkeys years.As was the one for outfitting all a/c with modern Chaff/flare dispensers apart from the "top" a/c.Till Kargil and Ahuja/Mi-17 no-one cared.Hell,the upgrade could have been and was carried out by IAF BRD's.But it was stuck.

Look up Wingco Suresh article on the "plan" to retrofit MiG21'sa with FDR's(flight Data Rec).MOD/Fin Min advise.."do 1 in 5"That should be enough.

Does the press ever talk about this?

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Sunil » 22 Nov 2002 21:47

Hi

Can someone explain to me how this 3/10000 figure was reached?

Vishnu's article seems to imply that the ACM actually said those things, I have a hard time believing that he did.

Vishnu,

Could you please clarify what exactly the ACM said? Thanks in advance.

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Peeyoosh » 22 Nov 2002 23:13

Sunil

Refer to http://users.senet.com.au/~wingman/accident.html

I have seen numbers ranging between 3.5 in the early 90s, falling to 1.9 in the mid 90s, and then rising again to around 2.5-3 in the late 90s in some articles. If there is better data, would appreciate seeing it.

Cheers

Peeyoosh

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Harry » 24 Nov 2002 03:50

Originally posted by aditya.g:
:eek: wOw...more details?
Nothing new.When the RMAF first got it's Mig-29Ns,it send a batch of flight instructors and technical officers to Pune.After months of intensive training there,Asghar khan became the first qualified RMAF Mig-29N instructor.At the same time,the IAF was also supplying some locally manufactured parts and components to the RMAF.

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Sunil » 24 Nov 2002 05:02

iirc a Mig-29 maintenence simulator of some sort was also sold to RMAF by some defence research establishment.

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby JCage » 24 Nov 2002 14:14

Thats the ADA developed one.Nice!
Has three Comp screens with all the innards of the A/C concerned in the sim.

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby Calvin » 30 Mar 2003 23:53

I was directed to this thread following comments made by Ray in another thread. As we analyze some of these failures, it is useful to ask what causes failures. In almost all cases, it is bearing wear. Everyone knows that bearing wear is caused by particulate contamination and by water in the oil (causing oil break down, organic acid formation, acid creating corrosion, and corrosion related particulate).

There is relatively low-cost technology that has been developed to keep L&H systems clean and dry, and therefore eliminate wear issues.

The two conventional approaches have been to replace the oil frequently (doesn't always work, oil may not be changed, oil condition is pretty poor at the end of its life, oil is expensive), or to use vacuum distillation (hard to maintain). But like I said, if anyone is interested in available technology discussions for the IA/IAF/IN, please contact me offline.

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Re: A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems

Postby A_Gupta » 31 Mar 2003 03:24

Originally posted by peeyoosh chadda:
HAL fits spares but it is IAF personnel who inspect and pass all aircraft before induction. What stops the IAF from putting their foot down? Hard.
Yes. I have heard that the big brass reprimanded inspection personnel who were failing HAL installed parts for poor quality. Doing one's job and trying to maintain quality was hazardous to one's IAF career.


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