Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[NRao]

Prateek has two major issues:

* Hot section, and
* FADEC

Anyone who can pitch in ($ or otherwise) please get in touch with him on X (@PattyInnovate).

[Rakesh]

Please click on link below...

https://x.com/Jordan_W_Taylor/status/17 ... 79445?s=20 ---> A thread for Saturday: Fun facts about the jet engine! (And a whole bunch of threads inside.) Here we go...

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1765 ... 35990?s=20 ---> ABI Showatech India Pvt Ltd to supply equiaxed nickel alloy low pressure (LPT) rotor blades and vane VPT sub assemblies to GTRE for the 80kN engine project.

Website of ABI Showatech India Pvt Ltd ---> https://abishowatech.co.in/

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1765 ... 35990?s=20 ---> ABI Showatech India Pvt Ltd to supply equiaxed nickel alloy low pressure (LPT) rotor blades and vane VPT sub assemblies to GTRE for the 80kN engine project.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1768 ... 12710?s=20 ---> UPDATE: GTRE has re-floated the EoI for equiaxed nickel alloy low pressure (LPT) rotor blades and vane VPT sub assemblies.

https://x.com/defenceglobe/status/17686 ... 47714?s=20 ---> What happened to previous winner?

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1768 ... 81957?s=20 ---> NDA issues I believe.

[Rakesh]

‘Yes, We Can’ — This Indian Aerospace Startup Is On A Mission to Build India's Own Jet Engine
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/yes-we- ... jet-engine
10 March 2024

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/PattyInnovate/status/1770 ... 83768?s=20 ---> Big News Alert! Third Patent Granted!

I am thrilled to announce that my third patent has been granted! Introducing "A Hybrid System Comprising Integrated Micro-Gas Turbine and Fuel Cell."

This patent marks a significant advancement in power generation efficiency and environmental sustainability. By integrating a micro-gas turbine and fuel cells, this hybrid system not only achieves high power generation efficiency but also removes CO2 from exhaust gases, all while enabling cogeneration.

I am deeply grateful to everyone who has been part of this journey, offering support, feedback, and encouragement along the way. Your contributions have been invaluable in bringing this innovative concept to fruition. Let's continue to push the boundaries of innovation and sustainability together! Exciting times lie ahead as we work towards a greener and more efficient future.

[Rakesh]

In a more lighter vein, some fake news for the day. The Hindu has now removed that article from its website. But somebody saved a screenshot

What is weird is that the article still shows up on the The Hindu website search ---> https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/se ... gsc.page=1

https://x.com/AbhTri_/status/1772109557378285917?s=20 --->

[chetak]

In a more lighter vein, some fake news for the day. The Hindu has now removed that article from her site. But somebody saved a screenshot

What is weird is that the article still shows up on the The Hindu website search ---> https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/se ... gsc.page=1

https://x.com/AbhTri_/status/1772109557378285917?s=20 --->

Rakesh ji,

it would be so much easier and cheaper to bribe the paki and the cheeni crore kammanudus and jernails not to fight.

[Rakesh]

it would be so much easier and cheaper to bribe the paki and the cheeni crore kammanudus and jernails not to fight.

[Manish_P]

^ 1 'Billion' hain?

The Hindu journos didn't even bother googling how much is Billion:Million. Seems they directly assumed it was Crore:Lakhs

[Rakesh]

I came across earlier today - via Twitter - that GE is asking for $11 million per F414 turbofan, while India wants to pay only $8 million per turbofan. Thus the negotiations over the price difference. Assuming these numbers are correct, then $11 million per turbofan equates to $1.1 billion for 100 engines, while the Indian offer will work out to $800 million for 100 engines.

Someone at The Hindu likely got a hold of these figures and decided (for whatever reason!) that $1.1 billion is the price that GE is costing India for one turbofan Or that individual has zero clue of the US currency numbering system. At that astronomical price, just one squadron of Tejas Mk2s (16 - 18 aircraft) would cost more than the USS Gerald R Ford, the US Navy's EMALS equipped aircraft carrier And that is just for the engines alone.

Our DDM (Desi Dork Media) never disappoints! Whoever heads the editorial team at The Hindu needs to get fired for this.

[Manish_P]

..
Or that individual has zero clue of the US currency numbering system...

My money is on the above

..
Whoever heads the editorial team at The Hindu needs to get fired for this.

The chances of that are lower than that of Jihadistan becoming secular

[maitya]

I came across earlier today - via Twitter - that GE is asking for $11 million per F414 turbofan, while India wants to pay only $8 million per turbofan.
<snip>

Contrasting with HAL signs contract worth Rs 5,375 crore for supply of engines for Tejas aircraft

Now that's ~INR54Cr/engine or ~$7.5m/engine (2021 price) for the F404, so $8m/F414 is certainly an interesting bargain to negotiate for.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1774689 ... 51184?s=20 ---> Mr CB Ananthakrishnan, CMD, HAL: "During the year, HAL & GE signed an MoU for ToT & manufacturing of GE-414 engines in India for LCA MK2. HAL would receive 80% tech transfer for this programme which will transform the Indian Aero Engine Manufacturing Ecosystem to be self-reliant."

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/17748 ... 45289?s=20 ---> The remaining 20% is where the magic lies. India did not become self-reliant through license production of any engine till date. It won't with the 404/414 either. Only road through PTAE-7, Manik, HTFE-25, Kaveri, HTSE. HAL has license produced 100s of turbofans, turboprops and turboshafts. Nothing has given it autonomy over any engine except for PTAE-7. We MUST understand this difference. And it's not just HAL. How many Brahmos engines has been assembled? Yet, how many years have we been waiting for Brahmos NG and Brahmos mini? In the meantime, DRDO developed the solid fuel ramjet of Akash missile and adapted it for liquid fuel ramjet. This missile is called STAR. It is in an advanced state of manufacture and about to commence testing. Some technology will *never* be passed. Modern turbofan is one such tech. It has to be developed in house. It takes enormous money, effort, time and expertise. All TOT, collaboration is an eyewash. Political or technical, whatever you want to see it.advanced state of manufacture and about to commence testing.

https://x.com/kalapian_/status/1774854612845019409?s=20 ---> We have been making more than 80% of the RD-33 and the AL-31FP for donkeys years. The GE deal is even more screwdriver-giri. We will be locked out of the code for the FADEC and the hot section of the F-414 will come as an assembled piece to slot in.

[drnayar]

In a more lighter vein, some fake news for the day. The Hindu has now removed that article from its website. But somebody saved a screenshot

What is weird is that the article still shows up on the The Hindu website search ---> https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/se ... gsc.page=1

https://x.com/AbhTri_/status/1772109557378285917?s=20 --->

1.1 billion per engine, maybe thats in rupees .appx 13 million usd per engine , india would have quoted 8 million USD [still high maybe some associated equip are included].

"According to some reports, while the pricing isn't fixed, the likely cost for GE's F414 could fall anywhere between $1 million and $3.71 million." from google chacha.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/singhshwetabh71/status/17 ... 5738264007 ---> This is how big the AL-31FP is.

https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1776795615600754841 ---> We built like what 400 of these? Under ToT by HAL! DRDO had a camp office at the manufacturing facility too. What did we learn?

https://x.com/sakthivel_cit93/status/17 ... 6619730371 ---> The mythical "TOT " is just a glorified maintenance & overhaul screwdriver giri. And we get to make non core parts, that have no core tech needed for HPT blades. Often it's the Chandigarh lobby & it's affiliated media, that makes a "mountain" out of these "molehill" TOTs.



https://x.com/sgurumurmurthy/status/1776881073286426958 --->

[Yagnasri]

A bit on OT, there were reports that Bharat is looking to make better parts etc to improve the AL31 and it seems that it is one the way. Plus we have very honest way of dealing with IPs of other nations. There is also no political will.

Another aspect is the manufacture of GE F-414 parts require far better quality control, eng skill sets and quality infra which we will get. These skill sets etc can be used to for making Kaveri parts etc. While 20% may be actual critical tech which we will never have but every small efforts may be used if there is a serious political will is there. Who knows what we will make if there is a serious political will.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/sidhant/status/1780826183397179637 ---> US defence secretary Lloyd Austin says co-producing jet engine, armoured vehicles with India; terms it revolutionary.

https://x.com/rv_srivatsa/status/1781013415575851142 ---> Someone get the Kaveri rolling ASAP. These guys are feeding us stuff we don't want. It's like a kid being fed curd rice, while being shown Hershey's syrup in the other hand.

[Manish_P]

...

https://x.com/rv_srivatsa/status/1781013415575851142 ---> Someone get the Kaveri rolling ASAP. These guys are feeding us stuff we don't want. It's like a kid being fed curd rice, while being shown Hershey's syrup in the other hand.

I agree with the sentiment about the drip feeding but what's he got against curd rice hain I love it, especially the tadka-wala variant..

[Kakkaji]

Question for Gurus:

If the Kaveri engine has already achieved a thrust of 73kN, then why can't a twin-engine ORCA be designed using 2 Kaveri engines? Will the thrust on that aircraft not match or exceed the Rafale's?

[hgupta]

Question for Gurus:

If the Kaveri engine has already achieved a thrust of 73kN, then why can't a twin-engine ORCA be designed using 2 Kaveri engines? Will the thrust on that aircraft not match or exceed the Rafale's?

I think the problem lies in the afterburner portion where they have the screeching problem. Until they solve that screeching problem that engine is going nowhere. Only way to solve it is to get a dedicated testbed and continue to retune the engine and retest it on the tested repeatedly until they get the dimensions and details right to resolve the screeching issue

[maitya]

Question for Gurus:

If the Kaveri engine has already achieved a thrust of 73kN, then why can't a twin-engine ORCA be designed using 2 Kaveri engines? Will the thrust on that aircraft not match or exceed the Rafale's?

I think the problem lies in the afterburner portion where they have the screeching problem. Until they solve that screeching problem that engine is going nowhere. Only way to solve it is to get a dedicated testbed and continue to retune the engine and retest it on the tested repeatedly until they get the dimensions and details right to resolve the screeching issue

Nah ... those problems have been solved, loooooooong back (almost a decade+ now).
And before somebody jumps up and down wrt, purely based on internet search, wrt "throwing of blades" by HPC etc, well for them, my advise would be to check the dates (of their searched news items) before posting anything here - those have been solved approx 2+ decades back (actually more).

There's only one reason for anything like that (using it for other platforms) is, purely:
1) The baseline Kaveri K9 (51/73KN) is not flight-tested and certified upto a level where it can be allowed to go for mass-manufacturing.
Having completed high-altitude testing in a subsonic platform, in 2008-09, IIRC, the next would have been to integrate into, first a twin-engine and then a single-engine, test-bed and be flown across the entire flight envelop for a certain number of hours. Which of course, requires budgetary allocation and that ofcourse, hasn't happened for last 1.5+ decade.
The program itself has been officially closed (so no funding, nothing), and has been kept alive, via the drip-feed, dry-Kaveri program.

2) The actual K10 version, which is the designated pre-productionising version, never really saw the light of the day - because of the program cancellation. Remember the K10 version was supposed to be the weight-reduced (and also performance optimised) version - and there have been reports of some work (at LRU level weight-reductions) going on, at a pace, such drip-feed budgetary allocation would allow.

3) Uprating to a new A/B to 81+KN, is well within reach of the current R&D orgs - but no program, hence no funding. So 0 progress.


PS: Since I'm not having b/w nowadays, to be able to complete a few posts (all half-finshed state), let me leave with a small nugget:
The desi DMS4 SC (4th Gen) HPT blades never really went into productionising levels, after successfully demonstrating the raw-material and then blade-casting/mfg at Lab levels, is purely because of funding.
A figure (very old) of INR 2L/Kg, for processing upto raw-material stage, was thrown around, then - something that the assorted baboons, found to be too prohibitive, to fund - tauba-tauba!!
(Of course, no spoon feeding, people will have to search themselves to dig it out and satisfy themselves)

But, can't resist, to point out the following:
The very same baboons are glad to shell out $7.5mil/engine for full-imported F404s, which in itself struggles to keep with the Kaveri, purely technology-wise - (betw also hearing that these same worthies are "vigorously" negotiating with the same OEM, for the asking rate of $11mil/engine screwdrivergiri for the F414s).
Link etc above/prev-page.

[Manish_P]

^ Depressing would be an understatement

Just curious, nobody has shown this in a spotlight to the powers-that-be over the years?

I would have thought that the erstwhile DM Shri Parrikar, and maybe even the PM would have eased the funding path if they had been given a very clear understanding of the program status